wide sterns

In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require "a lot of gear." Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "Cal_Boats <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats> " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. _____

Michael Kennedy wrote: >In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a >stern this wide. > >http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp > > > > Thanks for sending that link. It's impressive that those boats can handle those conditions. When we were discussing IOR boats, one concern was that they tended to be designed to beat rules, not to be fast and able vessels that could handle varied conditions. The boats pictured in the S-H race are obviously very expensive and very fast. In addition, it looks like they are able to handle rough weather. You have to admire boats like that, even if you can't afford them. They don't look like they would be comfortable boats, but they're not uncomfortable because comfort factors were sacrificed to gain some advantage under a rule. They are uncomfortable because speed was a more important criterion than comfort. That's a legitimate choice. Making a boat in an odd shape to fit a rule is not a legitimate choice, in my view, if the choice affects criteria that are important to sailing--safety, speed, comfort, strength. At the core of sailing is this notion of self-sufficiency. We set out in our little boats on the big waters, a hostile environment for air-breathing, thin-skinned, terrestrial mammals. We are governed by the motives that send us out--to have fun, to carry goods, to catch food from the sea--but also by the imperative to preserve our lives. When we sacrifice safety and self-preservation (America's Cup boats breaking in half in small seas), we become less than sailors. We are just frivolous fun-seekers who rely on others to save our butts. We are just like the power boaters who run out of gas. Rescue services like the Coast Guard are wonderful, and they have a role to play in saving life under extreme and unanticipated circumstances. But we shouldn't hand off our personal responsibilities to them. This is why it seems to me that we have an obligation to sail boats that are suited to their task--boats that are strong enough for their environment and that behave acceptably in that environment. Those S-H boats look like they fulfill those requirements, and like they're just one hell of a lot of fun to sail (if you've got good foul-weather gear). I don't think I'd select one for a leisurely cruise in Lake Huron's North Channel, but I wouldn't turn down an invitation to spend a day sailing fast. Chris Campbell

Their engine died mid-race and they couldn't move the keel except with a small electric motor. They had to sail on the wrong jibe for hours, according to the version I read. I always wanted to race that event but not in something like that. I don't think these boats are safe and can only be sailed with a professional crew. Disney had three keels and they won't use the canting one on Pyewacket at OC college. They've come a long way (no comment on direction) since Ted Heath won it on his first Morning Cloud, a S&S 34. MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 On Dec 29, 2005, at 7:07 AM, Rog Jones wrote: > Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your > URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart > (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this > time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty > knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the > place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and > staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and > had to jury rig that. > > > > The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to > race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats > require “a lot of gear.” Doh. > > > > Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. > But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to > design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and > complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their > paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy > goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep > follow without asking, “Are there any other options?” There are, > but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. > > > > Thanks for the great pics, Mike. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > > > > > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns > > > > In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a > stern this wide. > > http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp > > Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "Cal_Boats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > >

I'm not a N/A as you good tell But our local Lat 38 has one and she? has done a page on sterns and transom's see if its on web. Oh yes they can make go fast boats without canting keels the J the Farr designs just to name a few Also with good water foil design under water this well help make faster boats. Even some of these modern cuirser races have fine entry's flatter than normal under body's in the front to aft sections this helps the surf factor for sure. If you add all the above what you get is a fast crusier I would think. The CAL 40 has some of all the above right? I think Refine that maybe add twin rudders like the Volvo cup race boats and your off with a surfing party. If I could add a something . I thought everyone was talking about cruising sail boats? And how to get a design in a cruiser to go fast And the wide stern canoe stern pinched stern ect.. Also there was no mention of reserve bouancy that has a big factor in how a wave hits the stern and not the transom I know someone who had Ericson 35Mk2 1972 and the large surface under the stern would make for truoble down wind. These go fast machines with long WL they will not have the comfort with the overhangs when its real rough out there. My favorite stern transom was the hunter 55 had a dingy garage inside. My 10cents Scott Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require “a lot of gear.” Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, “Are there any other options?” There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet --------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Cal_Boats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

On Dec 29, 2005, at 8:46 AM, scott wrote: > I'm not a N/A as you good tell > But our local Lat 38 has one and she? has done a page on sterns and > transom's > see if its on web. > > Oh yes they can make go fast boats without canting keels the J the > Farr designs > just to name a few Also with good water foil design under water > this well help > make faster boats. Even some of these modern cuirser races have > fine entry's > flatter than normal under body's in the front to aft sections this > helps the surf factor > for sure. The fine entry tends to make boats into submarines when surfing. Outside of the Transpac, surfing is not such a big issue. Most distance racing is reaching or running in light air. When we got heavy air in Mexican races we either had it on the nose or it was too much of a reach to fly a chute or surf. That's the weather conditions. In the winter, when all the Mexican races were run, the wind down the coast of Baja was northwest and varied from light to 30 knots. ONce you turned the corner at Cabo, the California weather was what determined conditions. If a winter storm was going into southern California, you knew you would get a norther down the Gulf the next day. Those high pressure storms go into Arizona and the wind runs downhill into the Gulf. I've seen it blow 40 out of the north there and always when a winter storm hit Arizona. They had one recently and some kayakers got caught out and one drowned. In the 78 Manzanillo race it blew 50 for a day out of the north after we passed Cabo. We had a # 3 and a reefed main up. The old Yankee 38 couldn't surf if it blew 100. It was bulletproof, though. In the 77 La Paz race we hot a small Mexican hurricane. We had a # 4 up and the main lashed down on the cabin top. We took all the bottom paint off pounding into the seas but keep beating into it. I wouldn't want to be aboard Wild Oats then. > If you add all the above what you get is a fast crusier I would > think. The CAL 40 has > some of all the above right? The flat full bow is what lets it surf no matter how hard it blows. The Choate 40 had some of that although our sisterships didn't. It does hurt going to weather though and Cal 40s won't point with the modern boats. When it's blowing hard who wants to point anyway ? It's wet and cold up there. > I think Refine that maybe add twin rudders like the > Volvo cup race boats and your off with a surfing party. They just need them with the canting keel. > > If I could add a something . I thought everyone was talking about > cruising sail boats? > And how to get a design in a cruiser to go fast > > And the wide stern canoe stern pinched stern ect.. Also there was > no mention of reserve bouancy that has a big factor in how a wave > hits the stern and not the transom That's the problem with double-enders, as I understand it. The PCC was so narrow aft that it was effectively a double ender and I heard stories of them getting pooped. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 Off to work on the boat and then off to Arizona for the holiday tomorrow. Have a safe New Years.

Regarding canting keels, monohulls, and speed, Roger Jones wrote: "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me." Hoping that I am not a Ludite, I'd almost think that there may not be. When you think about it, the canting keel is only another means of achieving what the Log Canoes ( http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm<http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm> ) have been doing with their sliding seats since 1885, and what the Austrailain skiffs do with their racks and wires today: getting weigt to windward. The canting keel boats only seem different because they need more complex steering arrangements or added dagger boards to keep them going straight. The monohull principal seems to be constant: make the boat as long as you can afford and that will suit the course. Put as much sail in the air as you can, put as much ballast as you need where you need it, and put as little boat in the water as you can to support the sail area and ballast. And build all of this strong enough to finish the race, MOST OF THE TIME. Regarding the wide transoms (Wild Oats does not look that wide to me), I've done some limited sailing on the SC 70's and a Reichel-Pugh 75. These are pretty "old science" by now, but there are few prettier sights than that of the water sheeting off the underbody at the stern, at significant speed, with virtually no turbelence or back-eddy. With the back-eddy at the Cal-40 stern, you can safely dip a water bucket. Nice for showering, but not great for speed. Regarding wide transoms, I wonder if any of you from SoCal remember a boat that raced around here in the early 70's called "Wide Load". My recollection is that it was about 24' long, and possibly 10' wide at the transom. And same-as-above, it used it's width to get the ballast (bodies) as far to windward as possible. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones<mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require "a lot of gear." Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp<http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp> Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "Cal_Boats<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats>" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As one such option, Fin, I suggest that there might be at least one way to get the opposite effect of ballast to weather: getting buoyancy to leeward. A boat is under construction in Anacortes that does exactly that. It is, I am told, partly designed by Jim Antrim, along with an Italian designer for an Italian customer. The primary spars are being built in Anacortes and the hull is a rigid inflatable. The twin sides are not amas in the traditional sense, but intrinsic parts of a huge (110-foot range) triple-Vee-bottom. I have not seen the boat under build yet, but intend to get up there very soon. The boat will apparently carry liquid helium in a cryogenic tank or tanks in the garboard bilges above the keel and be able to discharge it into an inflatable section on the leeward side. As the boat tacks, the helium will be displaced by water and the corresponding inflatable section on the other side will be drained by displacing water with helium. That's all I know about it right now. But at least it is a different approach. And I would bet that there are others if the designers take off their blinders. Since this is a kind of blimp and boat combination, I wonder if it will be called a bloat. You are absolutely right about the beauty of water sheeting off the underbody at the stern. Imagine something like a Cal 40 with a wide rear end and a more modern entry and keel. It just could happen. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:56 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Rog) Regarding canting keels, monohulls, and speed, Roger Jones wrote: "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me." Hoping that I am not a Ludite, I'd almost think that there may not be. When you think about it, the canting keel is only another means of achieving what the Log Canoes ( http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm ) have been doing with their sliding seats since 1885, and what the Austrailain skiffs do with their racks and wires today: getting weigt to windward. The canting keel boats only seem different because they need more complex steering arrangements or added dagger boards to keep them going straight. The monohull principal seems to be constant: make the boat as long as you can afford and that will suit the course. Put as much sail in the air as you can, put as much ballast as you need where you need it, and put as little boat in the water as you can to support the sail area and ballast. And build all of this strong enough to finish the race, MOST OF THE TIME. Regarding the wide transoms (Wild Oats does not look that wide to me), I've done some limited sailing on the SC 70's and a Reichel-Pugh 75. These are pretty "old science" by now, but there are few prettier sights than that of the water sheeting off the underbody at the stern, at significant speed, with virtually no turbelence or back-eddy. With the back-eddy at the Cal-40 stern, you can safely dip a water bucket. Nice for showering, but not great for speed. Regarding wide transoms, I wonder if any of you from SoCal remember a boat that raced around here in the early 70's called "Wide Load". My recollection is that it was about 24' long, and possibly 10' wide at the transom. And same-as-above, it used it's width to get the ballast (bodies) as far to windward as possible. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA From: Rog Jones <mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require "a lot of gear." Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "Cal_Boats <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats> " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . _____

On Dec 29, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Fin Beven wrote: > Regarding canting keels, monohulls, and speed, Roger Jones wrote: > “Are there any other options?” There are, but no one seems to have > seen them, yet, including me." > snipped > > Regarding wide transoms, I wonder if any of you from SoCal remember > a boat that raced around here in the early 70's called "Wide > Load". My recollection is that it was about 24' long, and possibly > 10' wide at the transom. And same-as-above, it used it's width to > get the ballast (bodies) as far to windward as possible. It also had two bilge boards like Al Cassell's Terrorist and another boat whose name I forget. I don't think Wide Load ever did that well but it was interesting looking. The canting keel boats need the twin rudders because the keel is nearly horizontal when canted and doesn't function as a keel. I spent an interesting hour today on Intrepid II which is being rebuilt in Long Beach. It is a Cal 37 with a bowsprit. Forward of the small lazarette, it is a Cal 40. They just filled the mold to shorten the hull. He has taken the toe rail off and glassed the stern 2/3. He plans to put a perforated aluminum toe rail on the bow 1/3. He is putting the engine in the bilge with a straight drive shaft coming out the keel into an aperture about 18 inches forward of the aft edge of the keel and about 1/2 way down. Very interesting ideas. Since he is a surveyor, he knows what he's doing. He's thinking of going in Transpac 2007 and says he's been told he can go in the class. I once knew a guy who raced an Islander 41. It is the damnedest looking thing you ever saw. It looked like the aft 6 feet had been amputated. The word around was that a beer can thrown overboard from the stern would follow the boat around Catalina. MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rog Jones > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:07 AM > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) > > Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your > URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart > (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this > time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty > knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the > place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and > staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and > had to jury rig that. > > > > The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to > race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats > require “a lot of gear.” Doh. > > > > Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. > But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to > design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and > complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their > paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy > goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep > follow without asking, “Are there any other options?” There are, > but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. > > > > Thanks for the great pics, Mike. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > > > > > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns > > > > In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a > stern this wide. > > http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp > > Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "Cal_Boats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

did you notice the pics with "everyone" on the rail? it's hard to count but 18-200# guys doesn't seem necesssary when you can see the multi-ton keel directly below them. and the boats move at 18+ knots! it must have been a wild ride (G) John R From: Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> Date: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:07 am Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) > Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your > URL and > again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the > pics were > taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the > outdistanced Alfa > Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then > the blew out > sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and > severaljibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to > pieces as well and > had to jury rig that. > > > > The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to > race. The > owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require > "a lot of > gear." Doh. > > > > Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to > stern. But I > hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design > and build > equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs > if the > designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the > approach. The > problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all > the other > design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" > Thereare, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. > > > > Thanks for the great pics, Mike. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf > Of Michael Kennedy > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns > > > > In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered > a > stern this wide. > > http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp > > Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "Cal_Boats > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats> " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > >

It just could happen. Yes, and 4 years ago they might have called it a J-120. I don't know what they'd call it today. http://www.jboats.com/<http://www.jboats.com/> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones<mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:43 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Fin) As one such option, Fin, I suggest that there might be at least one way to get the opposite effect of ballast to weather: getting buoyancy to leeward. A boat is under construction in Anacortes that does exactly that. It is, I am told, partly designed by Jim Antrim, along with an Italian designer for an Italian customer. The primary spars are being built in Anacortes and the hull is a rigid inflatable. The twin sides are not amas in the traditional sense, but intrinsic parts of a huge (110-foot range) triple-Vee-bottom. I have not seen the boat under build yet, but intend to get up there very soon. The boat will apparently carry liquid helium in a cryogenic tank or tanks in the garboard bilges above the keel and be able to discharge it into an inflatable section on the leeward side. As the boat tacks, the helium will be displaced by water and the corresponding inflatable section on the other side will be drained by displacing water with helium. That's all I know about it right now. But at least it is a different approach. And I would bet that there are others if the designers take off their blinders. Since this is a kind of blimp and boat combination, I wonder if it will be called a bloat. You are absolutely right about the beauty of water sheeting off the underbody at the stern. Imagine something like a Cal 40 with a wide rear end and a more modern entry and keel. It just could happen. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:56 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Rog) Regarding canting keels, monohulls, and speed, Roger Jones wrote: "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me." Hoping that I am not a Ludite, I'd almost think that there may not be. When you think about it, the canting keel is only another means of achieving what the Log Canoes ( http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm<http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm> ) have been doing with their sliding seats since 1885, and what the Austrailain skiffs do with their racks and wires today: getting weigt to windward. The canting keel boats only seem different because they need more complex steering arrangements or added dagger boards to keep them going straight. The monohull principal seems to be constant: make the boat as long as you can afford and that will suit the course. Put as much sail in the air as you can, put as much ballast as you need where you need it, and put as little boat in the water as you can to support the sail area and ballast. And build all of this strong enough to finish the race, MOST OF THE TIME. Regarding the wide transoms (Wild Oats does not look that wide to me), I've done some limited sailing on the SC 70's and a Reichel-Pugh 75. These are pretty "old science" by now, but there are few prettier sights than that of the water sheeting off the underbody at the stern, at significant speed, with virtually no turbelence or back-eddy. With the back-eddy at the Cal-40 stern, you can safely dip a water bucket. Nice for showering, but not great for speed. Regarding wide transoms, I wonder if any of you from SoCal remember a boat that raced around here in the early 70's called "Wide Load". My recollection is that it was about 24' long, and possibly 10' wide at the transom. And same-as-above, it used it's width to get the ballast (bodies) as far to windward as possible. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones<mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require "a lot of gear." Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp<http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp> Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "Cal_Boats<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats>" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fin - That was good, Fin. Again, though, I think the J-120 was an attempt to build a Cal 40 that was not sufficiently visionary. I think that a new designer without aall the "old school" biases of the Johnstones could do something different and better. I've worked as tactician on a couple of J-120s and don't much like them. Have you sailed on them? What's your opinion? Personally, I think they could track better and I am not impressed by the way they reach. Your thoughts? \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:06 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (rog) It just could happen. Yes, and 4 years ago they might have called it a J-120. I don't know what they'd call it today. http://www.jboats.com/ From: Rog Jones <mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:43 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Fin) As one such option, Fin, I suggest that there might be at least one way to get the opposite effect of ballast to weather: getting buoyancy to leeward. A boat is under construction in Anacortes that does exactly that. It is, I am told, partly designed by Jim Antrim, along with an Italian designer for an Italian customer. The primary spars are being built in Anacortes and the hull is a rigid inflatable. The twin sides are not amas in the traditional sense, but intrinsic parts of a huge (110-foot range) triple-Vee-bottom. I have not seen the boat under build yet, but intend to get up there very soon. The boat will apparently carry liquid helium in a cryogenic tank or tanks in the garboard bilges above the keel and be able to discharge it into an inflatable section on the leeward side. As the boat tacks, the helium will be displaced by water and the corresponding inflatable section on the other side will be drained by displacing water with helium. That's all I know about it right now. But at least it is a different approach. And I would bet that there are others if the designers take off their blinders. Since this is a kind of blimp and boat combination, I wonder if it will be called a bloat. You are absolutely right about the beauty of water sheeting off the underbody at the stern. Imagine something like a Cal 40 with a wide rear end and a more modern entry and keel. It just could happen. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:56 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Rog) Regarding canting keels, monohulls, and speed, Roger Jones wrote: "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me." Hoping that I am not a Ludite, I'd almost think that there may not be. When you think about it, the canting keel is only another means of achieving what the Log Canoes ( http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm ) have been doing with their sliding seats since 1885, and what the Austrailain skiffs do with their racks and wires today: getting weigt to windward. The canting keel boats only seem different because they need more complex steering arrangements or added dagger boards to keep them going straight. The monohull principal seems to be constant: make the boat as long as you can afford and that will suit the course. Put as much sail in the air as you can, put as much ballast as you need where you need it, and put as little boat in the water as you can to support the sail area and ballast. And build all of this strong enough to finish the race, MOST OF THE TIME. Regarding the wide transoms (Wild Oats does not look that wide to me), I've done some limited sailing on the SC 70's and a Reichel-Pugh 75. These are pretty "old science" by now, but there are few prettier sights than that of the water sheeting off the underbody at the stern, at significant speed, with virtually no turbelence or back-eddy. With the back-eddy at the Cal-40 stern, you can safely dip a water bucket. Nice for showering, but not great for speed. Regarding wide transoms, I wonder if any of you from SoCal remember a boat that raced around here in the early 70's called "Wide Load". My recollection is that it was about 24' long, and possibly 10' wide at the transom. And same-as-above, it used it's width to get the ballast (bodies) as far to windward as possible. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA From: Rog Jones <mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require "a lot of gear." Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 SPONSORED LINKS Boating <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=S ailing+boat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=KgsPLsahA8AB__qRyAt_XQ> sailing Sailing <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing+boat&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sail ing+boat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=oZUJLnrR0FEbvZ5o13Ffaw> boat Sailing <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing+b oat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=eGOXnwatS3x0LYN3XxVdNA> Boating <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing+b oat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=yMCAyUrqzhoqLD5Ydiy-Rg> _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "Cal_Boats <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats> " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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I've raced against them many times while crewing on a J-35. They really looked nice (95% of the time behind us). The new J-65 I think it is looks nice as well but unless you're in California its draft is a serious issue. Rich

Rog Jones wrote: > The boat will apparently carry liquid helium in a cryogenic tank or > tanks in the garboard bilges above the keel and be able to discharge > it into an inflatable section on the leeward side. As the boat tacks, > the helium will be displaced by water and the corresponding inflatable > section on the other side will be drained by displacing water with > helium. > > > > These things are interesting as design exercises and for the incentive they create to advance the engineering arts, but they get closer and closer to powerboats--vessels that must be pumped full of stuff periodically in order to work. One of the great attractions of sailing is its inherent self-sufficiency. I can sail off the mooring in my little Cal 20, here in Lake Michigan, and know that I could just keep going (theoretically) and go anywhere in the world. Oh, I'd have to stop periodically to fill my belly and buy some porta-potti fluid, but the boat really requires no artificial energy inputs so long as I am clever and lucky enough to sail without using the outboard. I recognize that there's a difference between my Cal 20 and a state-of-the-art go-fast racer, but for most of history the racers ahve just been more refined versions of the workboats. Both depended on wind and human muscle power to go. The increase in complexity from one to the other wasn't so great as to make the racers wholly dependent upon power. This helium-displacement idea is clever but somehow it seems to get us farther from sailing. I'm so stubborn about this that on my other boat, which lies a little over a mile up the river in a marina, I usually sail at least one way, in or out, and if I'm really lucky I can sail both ways. There have been times, either from favorable circumstances or unfavorable ones (the @#$%*!!! outboard failed), when I've sailed right into my slip. Chris Campbell, Luddite?

Yes, I've sailed and raced on them, and had fun every time. Regarding tracking, I don't think that they are supposed to "track". I've just assumed that these boats with narrow, deep keels are not really expected to track, whether they're 40' or 75'. Skinny foil, skinny rudder. You have attend to your driving. As for reaching, I think that they do that way better than they "run". Unlike the super-maxi's like Wild Oats that move the apparent wind quite far forward due to their high speed, I think that smaller/slower boats are really quite compromized when trying to go DDW in a breeze. My friends who had the 120 now have a 130. When the mast was being laid up, they had them put the appropriate backing material in the carbon-fiber mast so that they can add a spin. track when they want to. They sailed their 120 in Transpac in 2003, and decided that they really would have done better, and had a better ride, if they'd had conventional spinnakers and asymmetricals. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones<mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:32 AM Subject: J-120s (Fin) (was RE: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options) Fin - That was good, Fin. Again, though, I think the J-120 was an attempt to build a Cal 40 that was not sufficiently visionary. I think that a new designer without aall the "old school" biases of the Johnstones could do something different and better. I've worked as tactician on a couple of J-120s and don't much like them. Have you sailed on them? What's your opinion? Personally, I think they could track better and I am not impressed by the way they reach. Your thoughts? \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:06 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (rog) It just could happen. Yes, and 4 years ago they might have called it a J-120. I don't know what they'd call it today. http://www.jboats.com/<http://www.jboats.com/> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones<mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:43 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Fin) As one such option, Fin, I suggest that there might be at least one way to get the opposite effect of ballast to weather: getting buoyancy to leeward. A boat is under construction in Anacortes that does exactly that. It is, I am told, partly designed by Jim Antrim, along with an Italian designer for an Italian customer. The primary spars are being built in Anacortes and the hull is a rigid inflatable. The twin sides are not amas in the traditional sense, but intrinsic parts of a huge (110-foot range) triple-Vee-bottom. I have not seen the boat under build yet, but intend to get up there very soon. The boat will apparently carry liquid helium in a cryogenic tank or tanks in the garboard bilges above the keel and be able to discharge it into an inflatable section on the leeward side. As the boat tacks, the helium will be displaced by water and the corresponding inflatable section on the other side will be drained by displacing water with helium. That's all I know about it right now. But at least it is a different approach. And I would bet that there are others if the designers take off their blinders. Since this is a kind of blimp and boat combination, I wonder if it will be called a bloat. You are absolutely right about the beauty of water sheeting off the underbody at the stern. Imagine something like a Cal 40 with a wide rear end and a more modern entry and keel. It just could happen. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 3:56 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Are there any other options (Rog) Regarding canting keels, monohulls, and speed, Roger Jones wrote: "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me." Hoping that I am not a Ludite, I'd almost think that there may not be. When you think about it, the canting keel is only another means of achieving what the Log Canoes ( http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm<http://www.logcanoes.com/history.htm> ) have been doing with their sliding seats since 1885, and what the Austrailain skiffs do with their racks and wires today: getting weigt to windward. The canting keel boats only seem different because they need more complex steering arrangements or added dagger boards to keep them going straight. The monohull principal seems to be constant: make the boat as long as you can afford and that will suit the course. Put as much sail in the air as you can, put as much ballast as you need where you need it, and put as little boat in the water as you can to support the sail area and ballast. And build all of this strong enough to finish the race, MOST OF THE TIME. Regarding the wide transoms (Wild Oats does not look that wide to me), I've done some limited sailing on the SC 70's and a Reichel-Pugh 75. These are pretty "old science" by now, but there are few prettier sights than that of the water sheeting off the underbody at the stern, at significant speed, with virtually no turbelence or back-eddy. With the back-eddy at the Cal-40 stern, you can safely dip a water bucket. Nice for showering, but not great for speed. Regarding wide transoms, I wonder if any of you from SoCal remember a boat that raced around here in the early 70's called "Wide Load". My recollection is that it was about 24' long, and possibly 10' wide at the transom. And same-as-above, it used it's width to get the ballast (bodies) as far to windward as possible. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones<mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns (Mike K) Wild Oats, pictured on the left third row down on page one of your URL and again, extensively on page three, won the Sydney-Hobart (where the pics were taken). It was a relatively benign race this time, and the outdistanced Alfa Romeo in light air (under twenty knots) by taking a flyer. Then the blew out sails all over the place, including their mains, a spinnaker and several jibs and staysails. They ripped the mainsheet block to pieces as well and had to jury rig that. The boat is a twin-foil canting keel that requires a crew of 24 to race. The owner of this $10 million baby complains that these boats require "a lot of gear." Doh. Personally, I like the sleek looks of the boats from stem to stern. But I hat the complexity. I am convinced that it is possible to design and build equally fast monohulls without canting keels and complicated rigs if the designers will step back from their paradigms and rethink the approach. The problem is that one guy goes down the canting keel avenue and all the other design sheep follow without asking, "Are there any other options?" There are, but no one seems to have seen them, yet, including me. Thanks for the great pics, Mike. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] wide sterns In our discussion of race boat shapes, I don't think we considered a stern this wide. http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp<http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/05/sydneyhobart/index3.asp> Interesting conditions. Look at Hugo Boss. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 SPONSORED LINKS Boating sailing<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing+boat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=KgsPLsahA8AB__qRyAt_XQ> Sailing boat<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing+boat&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing+boat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=oZUJLnrR0FEbvZ5o13Ffaw> Sailing<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing+boat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=eGOXnwatS3x0LYN3XxVdNA> Boating<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing+boat&w3=Sailing&w4=Boating&c=4&s=65&.sig=yMCAyUrqzhoqLD5Ydiy-Rg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "Cal_Boats<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats>" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> c.. 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