Keel flexing of Cal 29

I'm looking at purchasing a 1974 Cal 2-29. I had it pulled out of the water the other day during the survey and noticed the keel will flex laterally (about and inch) when pushed/pulled. The bottom of the hull did flex in/out with the keel movement.The surveyor thought is was a bit excessive. Is this normal or should I walk away from this boat. He (surveyor) thought the floor could be strengthened with lateral bracing glassed in under the sole. On closer inpection the sole would have to be removed and raised to add bracing. Would love to hear from some of you if any has seen this keel flexing before.

When these boats were commissioned, there was no flex. I boats I have looked at and in my own, there is no flex. This is not a good sign. When you say the bottom of the keel also moved in and out, are you talking about the bottom of the keel under the lead? If so, that doesn't make much sense either. There will be others on the list who will disagree, but I helped engineer and build these boats and one thing they were was rigid. Typically, keel flex is a first sign of laminate failure in the garboard area. If the boat is still out of the water, can you get a moisture meter reading on the keel - sides and bottom - and on the garboard areas of the hull immediately adjacent to the keel? Did your surveyor take moisture meter readings? If there is excessive moisture, chances are good that the laminate is ruined. Also, was there any sign of blistering or other damage or repair to the keel and the garboard area immediately around it? Thanks. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > When these boats were commissioned, there was no flex. I boats I have looked > at and in my own, there is no flex. This is not a good sign. When you say > the bottom of the keel also moved in and out, are you talking about the > bottom of the keel under the lead? If so, that doesn't make much sense > either. There will be others on the list who will disagree, but I helped > engineer and build these boats and one thing they were was rigid. Typically, > keel flex is a first sign of laminate failure in the garboard area. > > > > If the boat is still out of the water, can you get a moisture meter reading > on the keel - sides and bottom - and on the garboard areas of the hull > immediately adjacent to the keel? Did your surveyor take moisture meter > readings? If there is excessive moisture, chances are good that the laminate > is ruined. > > > > Also, was there any sign of blistering or other damage or repair to the keel > and the garboard area immediately around it? > > > > Thanks. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > thanks for the reply... the keel itself is ridgid from top to bottom, but the whole thing will move (about and inch at the bottom of the keel) You can see the bottom of the boat adjacent to the keel also flexing in and out slightly when the keel is moved. I guess my question is this a fixable problem with bracing or should I walk away.

Hi, Rog - If you don't have moisture meter readings, you are taking a chance. Furthermore, any surveyor who notes this condition and doesn't put a moisture meter on the hull where it is moving is incompetent. The area immediately adjacent to and running along the keel is called the garboard area. If it is mushy, it usually means damaged composite (fiberglass). In its original state, it did not allow movement. Also, did you check the steel crossbeam? If the surveyor did not check that, it's double incompetence and I'd ask for my money back and/or report him/her to the appropriate Better Business Bureau and to his/her surveyors' association - NAMS or SAMS. If you don't have the moisture data and haven't checked the crossbeam, my recommendation is that you walk away. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Coon Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 5:52 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flexing of Cal 29 --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > When these boats were commissioned, there was no flex. I boats I have looked > at and in my own, there is no flex. This is not a good sign. When you say > the bottom of the keel also moved in and out, are you talking about the > bottom of the keel under the lead? If so, that doesn't make much sense > either. There will be others on the list who will disagree, but I helped > engineer and build these boats and one thing they were was rigid. Typically, > keel flex is a first sign of laminate failure in the garboard area. > > > > If the boat is still out of the water, can you get a moisture meter reading > on the keel - sides and bottom - and on the garboard areas of the hull > immediately adjacent to the keel? Did your surveyor take moisture meter > readings? If there is excessive moisture, chances are good that the laminate > is ruined. > > > > Also, was there any sign of blistering or other damage or repair to the keel > and the garboard area immediately around it? > > > > Thanks. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > thanks for the reply... the keel itself is ridgid from top to bottom, but the whole thing will move (about and inch at the bottom of the keel) You can see the bottom of the boat adjacent to the keel also flexing in and out slightly when the keel is moved. I guess my question is this a fixable problem with bracing or should I walk away.

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > Hi, Rog - > > > > If you don't have moisture meter readings, you are taking a chance. > Furthermore, any surveyor who notes this condition and doesn't put a > moisture meter on the hull where it is moving is incompetent. The area > immediately adjacent to and running along the keel is called the garboard > area. If it is mushy, it usually means damaged composite (fiberglass). In > its original state, it did not allow movement. > > > > Also, did you check the steel crossbeam? If the surveyor did not check that, > it's double incompetence and I'd ask for my money back and/or report him/her > to the appropriate Better Business Bureau and to his/her surveyors' > association - NAMS or SAMS. > > > > If you don't have the moisture data and haven't checked the crossbeam, my > recommendation is that you walk away. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > > > > > > _____ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Roger Coon > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 5:52 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flexing of Cal 29 > > > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Rog > Jones" <rog@> wrote: > > > > When these boats were commissioned, there was no flex. I boats I > have looked > > at and in my own, there is no flex. This is not a good sign. When > you say > > the bottom of the keel also moved in and out, are you talking > about the > > bottom of the keel under the lead? If so, that doesn't make much > sense > > either. There will be others on the list who will disagree, but I > helped > > engineer and build these boats and one thing they were was rigid. > Typically, > > keel flex is a first sign of laminate failure in the garboard > area. > > > > > > > > If the boat is still out of the water, can you get a moisture > meter reading > > on the keel - sides and bottom - and on the garboard areas of the > hull > > immediately adjacent to the keel? Did your surveyor take moisture > meter > > readings? If there is excessive moisture, chances are good that > the laminate > > is ruined. > > > > > > > > Also, was there any sign of blistering or other damage or repair > to the keel > > and the garboard area immediately around it? > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > \Rog > > > > > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > > > Swiss Navy > > > > > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > > > St. Lori's Comet > > > thanks for the reply... the keel itself is ridgid from top to > bottom, but the whole thing will move (about and inch at the bottom > of the keel) You can see the bottom of the boat adjacent to the > keel also flexing in and out slightly when the keel is moved. I > guess my question is this a fixable problem with bracing or should I > walk away. > Thanks Rog, He did check the cross beam and it does show rust and the bulkhead attatch points as well as aft of the head. He didn't think it was that big of a deal. I suppose I should ask for a moisture reading but I think I'll walk away. It's a shame. The A30 engine is newly rebuilt, new standing rigging, new main sail, and rewire of the boat a couple of years ago. The asking price is $7000 dollars which seemed like a great deal. thank you. Roger

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > When these boats were commissioned, there was no flex. I boats I have looked > at and in my own, there is no flex. This is not a good sign. When you say > the bottom of the keel also moved in and out, are you talking about the > bottom of the keel under the lead? If so, that doesn't make much sense > either. There will be others on the list who will disagree, but I helped > engineer and build these boats and one thing they were was rigid. Typically, > keel flex is a first sign of laminate failure in the garboard area. > > > > If the boat is still out of the water, can you get a moisture meter reading > on the keel - sides and bottom - and on the garboard areas of the hull > immediately adjacent to the keel? Did your surveyor take moisture meter > readings? If there is excessive moisture, chances are good that the laminate > is ruined. > > > > Also, was there any sign of blistering or other damage or repair to the keel > and the garboard area immediately around it? > > > > Thanks. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > One more question only because I really like the boat. Is it fixable with bracing under the sole. The surveyor suggested that I could possibley run across the hull and that fit into the bilge/keel and then glass them in. It would raise the sole floor a couple of inches but I wanted to know what you think. Is this feasable/worth it? Roger > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet >

The name of that boat shd be 'Noli me tangere' Nick From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of coondog0268 Sent: June 20, 2006 12:55 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flexing of Cal 29 I'm looking at purchasing a 1974 Cal 2-29. I had it pulled out of the water the other day during the survey and noticed the keel will flex laterally (about and inch) when pushed/pulled. The bottom of the hull did flex in/out with the keel movement.The surveyor thought is was a bit excessive. Is this normal or should I walk away from this boat. He (surveyor) thought the floor could be strengthened with lateral bracing glassed in under the sole. On closer inpection the sole would have to be removed and raised to add bracing. Would love to hear from some of you if any has seen this keel flexing before.

I had a question reguarding keel flex My boat is in the water and one day I had the whole floor out of the bottom And I knoticed when I rocked the boat the keel flexed. i hoping that this is just because the floor (which kinda supports the region of where the keel and hull meet) was out . What is the proper way for checking this when the boat is out of the water. thanks for any input, trey On 6/20/06, Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: > > When these boats were commissioned, there was no flex. I boats I have > looked at and in my own, there is no flex. This is not a good sign. When you > say the bottom of the keel also moved in and out, are you talking about the > bottom of the keel under the lead? If so, that doesn't make much sense > either. There will be others on the list who will disagree, but I helped > engineer and build these boats and one thing they were was rigid. Typically, > keel flex is a first sign of laminate failure in the garboard area. > > > > If the boat is still out of the water, can you get a moisture meter > reading on the keel – sides and bottom – and on the garboard areas of the > hull immediately adjacent to the keel? Did your surveyor take moisture meter > readings? If there is excessive moisture, chances are good that the laminate > is ruined. > > > > Also, was there any sign of blistering or other damage or repair to the > keel and the garboard area immediately around it? > > > > Thanks. > > > > \Rog > > > > Cal 29+ #1 > > Swiss Navy > > > > Cal 2-30 #77 > > St. Lori's Comet > > > > >