Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: An Answer for The Group... (Rob) (was) a question for the group.

I've only steered a couple of boats with wheels, and one of them was hydraulic, so there was no feedback, but it seems to me that a larger wheel has more advantage (gain) than a smaller wheel, so you would get less feedback with a larger wheel. John Courter Strider Cal 40 ************ ********* ******* --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Robin roberts <revrob420@. ..> wrote: > > The rudder on our boat is big enough, that with the 30 inch wheel, returns a good feel for the boat and seas as long as the tension lock is released. A smaller wheel does not return as good a feel for the boat. When single handing, that tension lock is a real nice feature. > > > Rob Roberts > Selah > 77 Cal 3/34 #56 > Recent Activity 6New Members 3New Photos Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS Sailing Boating Sailing boat Boating sailing Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others..

I understand what you are saying, and empirically, that is true if we are thinking of steering, The larger wheel does exert more steering power with less pressure on the wheel. I like that in heavy seas. but if we are talking about the "feel" of the rudder, returning back to the wheel, think of it this way.... If your rudder, reacting to sea conditions and steering angle moves the center hub of your wheel 1/8 inch, how much does the outside of the wheel move? I have not done any true calculations due to a very frantic 2 days, but just for an exanple, assume the hub of the wheel is two inches. If pressure on the rudder moves the hub 1/8 inch then the outer rim of a 20 inch wheel would move over one inch, and the rim of a 30 inch wheel should move almost two inches. Additionally, the added mass (weight) of a larger wheel due to kinetic energy should return more pressure in addition to the incremental movement. One other thing I like about a larger wheel is the ability to make fine adjustments. The larger wheel exerts more leverage (force) on the rudder when needed for fast turns, but when fine adjustment is needed (narrow channel - berthing) there is less tendancy to oversteer with a larger wheel. I used to have a 42 footer with a 24 inch wheel. Now I have a 34 footer with a 30 inch wheel. In retrospect, I wish we had gone to a larger wheel on the other boat. All of that being said, every one of us has our own likes and dislikes, and what works for one may not make sense for another. Cockpit space, walking room, seating, etc... all play into the decision. On the 34, the 30 inch wheel makes it tight getting around the wheel, but I am 6ft tall and 175 lbs, (skinny) so this does not bother me. Someone with a heavier build might prefer a smaller wheel for convenience in getting around the cockpit. I hope all of this makes sense God's blessings to all Rob Selah 77 Cal 3/34 #56 John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I've only steered a couple of boats with wheels, and one of them was hydraulic, so there was no feedback, but it seems to me that a larger wheel has more advantage (gain) than a smaller wheel, so you would get less feedback with a larger wheel. John Courter Strider Cal 40 ************ ********* ******* --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Robin roberts <revrob420@. ..> wrote: > > The rudder on our boat is big enough, that with the 30 inch wheel, returns a good feel for the boat and seas as long as the tension lock is released. A smaller wheel does not return as good a feel for the boat. When single handing, that tension lock is a real nice feature. > > > Rob Roberts > Selah > 77 Cal 3/34 #56 > Recent Activity 6 New Members 3 New Photos Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS Sailing Boating Sailing boat Boating sailing Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. .

I hope everything goes well for your wife. I guess it depends on how one defines feel. I'll use a tiller to describe it. Let's say you have a rudder that has a chord length of one foot and the rudder is not balanced, and we have a tiller that is 3 feet long. If I exert 5 lbs of force on the end of the tiller, there will be 15 lbs of force generated at the tip of the rudder. If a sea hits the rudder and generates 15 lbs of force at the tip of the rudder, I will feel 5 lbs of force on the tiller. And as you put it, if the sea moves the rudder tip 1 inch, the end of my tiller will move 3 inches, and I have to move the tiller 3 inches to move the rudder 1 inch. A wheel is exactly the same except for presumably more gain. To me feel is the force I have to exert on the tiller to maintain course. I'm not allowing the forces on the rudder to move the tiller very much, so I don't see much movement at the end of the tiller. As an aside, the Cal 40 tiller is the right length such that an inch of travel at the tip is about 1 degree of rotation, so with a couple of marks on the bridgedeck it's easy to see how many degrees of helm I have. I could also simulate the weight on the edge of the wheel on a tiller by taping a chunk of lead to the tip of the tiller. This is changing the moment of inertia. When the tiller isn't moving, it's harder to start moving. When it is moving, it's harder to stop. You have reminded me of a delivery trip for a racing boat I did long ago. I say to the skipper my arms and shoulders hurt from steering, can we ease the sheet? The skipper said, see that mark on the sheet, when that mark is at that position, the boat is fast. I definitely could have used a bigger wheel for that trip, that's if I haven't tripped up in my logic someplace. Could it be that when you're talking about a better feel, that with some boats the force fed back is too big and so you want a bigger wheel so you have more gain to reduce the load you feel? A lesson I learned years ago about helm feel versus weather helm. Our club had an Islander 26. It had a very balanced spade rudder. I'm sailing along with the rail almost buried and the tiller has very little pull on it. I say to my friend, wow this boat is nicely balanced, there's very little helm. He smiles at me and says look at where you have the tiller. It was in my lap, maybe 20 degrees off center. This is a fun thing to teach new Hobie 16 sailors, as with no centerboard the racers discovered that raking the mast aft makes the boat faster upwind by reducing leeway by loading up the rudders. You make the feedback go away by raking the rudders forward so they're balanced. It's incredible how bad the helm feels until you balance the rudders. It's also scary if you go too far, now you have positive feedback and the rudder keeps trying to turn. John Courter Strider Cal 40 From: Robin roberts <re… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 9:54:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: An Answer for The Group... (Rob) (was) a question for the group. I understand what you are saying, and empirically, that is true if we are thinking of steering, The larger wheel does exert more steering power with less pressure on the wheel. I like that in heavy seas. but if we are talking about the "feel" of the rudder, returning back to the wheel, think of it this way.... If your rudder, reacting to sea conditions and steering angle moves the center hub of your wheel 1/8 inch, how much does the outside of the wheel move? I have not done any true calculations due to a very frantic 2 days, but just for an exanple, assume the hub of the wheel is two inches. If pressure on the rudder moves the hub 1/8 inch then the outer rim of a 20 inch wheel would move over one inch, and the rim of a 30 inch wheel should move almost two inches. Additionally, the added mass (weight) of a larger wheel due to kinetic energy should return more pressure in addition to the incremental movement. One other thing I like about a larger wheel is the ability to make fine adjustments. The larger wheel exerts more leverage (force) on the rudder when needed for fast turns, but when fine adjustment is needed (narrow channel - berthing) there is less tendancy to oversteer with a larger wheel. I used to have a 42 footer with a 24 inch wheel. Now I have a 34 footer with a 30 inch wheel. In retrospect, I wish we had gone to a larger wheel on the other boat. All of that being said, every one of us has our own likes and dislikes, and what works for one may not make sense for another. Cockpit space, walking room, seating, etc... all play into the decision. On the 34, the 30 inch wheel makes it tight getting around the wheel, but I am 6ft tall and 175 lbs, (skinny) so this does not bother me. Someone with a heavier build might prefer a smaller wheel for convenience in getting around the cockpit. I hope all of this makes sense God's blessings to all Rob Selah 77 Cal 3/34 #56 John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> wrote: I've only steered a couple of boats with wheels, and one of them was hydraulic, so there was no feedback, but it seems to me that a larger wheel has more advantage (gain) than a smaller wheel, so you would get less feedback with a larger wheel. John Courter Strider Cal 40 ************ ********* ******* --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Robin roberts <revrob420@. ..> wrote: > > The rudder on our boat is big enough, that with the 30 inch wheel, returns a good feel for the boat and seas as long as the tension lock is released. A smaller wheel does not return as good a feel for the boat. When single handing, that tension lock is a real nice feature. > > > Rob Roberts > Selah > 77 Cal 3/34 #56 > Recent Activity 6New Members 3New Photos Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS Sailing Boating Sailing boat Boating sailing Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. .

so this means, we can install a bigger wheel? [ca… [at] yahoo.com] wrote: I hope everything goes well for your wife. I guess it depends on how one defines feel. I'll use a tiller to describe it. Let's say you have a rudder that has a chord length of one foot and the rudder is not balanced, and we have a tiller that is 3 feet long. If I exert 5 lbs of force on the end of the tiller, there will be 15 lbs of force generated at the tip of the rudder. If a sea hits the rudder and generates 15 lbs of force at the tip of the rudder, I will feel 5 lbs of force on the tiller. And as you put it, if the sea moves the rudder tip 1 inch, the end of my tiller will move 3 inches, and I have to move the tiller 3 inches to move the rudder 1 inch. A wheel is exactly the same except for presumably more gain. To me feel is the force I have to exert on the tiller to maintain course. I'm not allowing the forces on the rudder to move the tiller very much, so I don't see much movement at the end of the tiller. As an aside, the Cal 40 tiller is the right length such that an inch of travel at the tip is about 1 degree of rotation, so with a couple of marks on the bridgedeck it's easy to see how many degrees of helm I have. I could also simulate the weight on the edge of the wheel on a tiller by taping a chunk of lead to the tip of the tiller. This is changing the moment of inertia. When the tiller isn't moving, it's harder to start moving. When it is moving, it's harder to stop. You have reminded me of a delivery trip for a racing boat I did long ago. I say to the skipper my arms and shoulders hurt from steering, can we ease the sheet? The skipper said, see that mark on the sheet, when that mark is at that position, the boat is fast. I definitely could have used a bigger wheel for that trip, that's if I haven't tripped up in my logic someplace. Could it be that when you're talking about a better feel, that with some boats the force fed back is too big and so you want a bigger wheel so you have more gain to reduce the load you feel? A lesson I learned years ago about helm feel versus weather helm. Our club had an Islander 26. It had a very balanced spade rudder. I'm sailing along with the rail almost buried and the tiller has very little pull on it. I say to my friend, wow this boat is nicely balanced, there's very little helm. He smiles at me and says look at where you have the tiller. It was in my lap, maybe 20 degrees off center. This is a fun thing to teach new Hobie 16 sailors, as with no centerboard the racers discovered that raking the mast aft makes the boat faster upwind by reducing leeway by loading up the rudders. You make the feedback go away by raking the rudders forward so they're balanced. It's incredible how bad the helm feels until you balance the rudders. It's also scary if you go too far, now you have positive feedback and the rudder keeps trying to turn. John Courter Strider Cal 40 From: Robin roberts <re… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent:....

John, Many thanks for the concern. She is doing well and hopefully, we will have some real answers soon. I understand and agree with everything you have said. There is nothing that will compare with the feel and control of a tiller. I also was a Hobie man. I ran 16s, with raked mast and rudders, fully trapped, in many races for many years, and there is no way a wheel will give that kind of feedback or response, but with proper gearing and setup, you can have good response and feedback with a wheel as well. Also, a big balanced rudder gives better response whether with tiller or wheel. The main reasons people want a wheel is comfort, convenience, and ease of operation. Some people I have known just couldn't get comfortable with moving the tiller right, to turn left. I have seen some interesting berthings because of this as I know you have too. I can tell you that at age 50, I now enjoy a wheel much more. Especially being able to adjust the tension or lock the wheel easily so I can make adjustments to sails etc.... With stormy weather like today (20 knot winds, shifting, and 6ft white caps in the Gulf) it made me think about this thread. Glad I have the wheel now. The reason we have the mariners knot on the wheel, is the same reason you have marks on the deck. Thanks for engaging me in this conversation. I appreciate the knowlege you empart. It makes me engage the remaining brain cells. Peace be to you and yours Rob Selah 77 Cal 3/34 #56 John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I hope everything goes well for your wife. I guess it depends on how one defines feel. I'll use a tiller to describe it. Let's say you have a rudder that has a chord length of one foot and the rudder is not balanced, and we have a tiller that is 3 feet long. If I exert 5 lbs of force on the end of the tiller, there will be 15 lbs of force generated at the tip of the rudder. If a sea hits the rudder and generates 15 lbs of force at the tip of the rudder, I will feel 5 lbs of force on the tiller. And as you put it, if the sea moves the rudder tip 1 inch, the end of my tiller will move 3 inches, and I have to move the tiller 3 inches to move the rudder 1 inch. A wheel is exactly the same except for presumably more gain. To me feel is the force I have to exert on the tiller to maintain course. I'm not allowing the forces on the rudder to move the tiller very much, so I don't see much movement at the end of the tiller. As an aside, the Cal 40 tiller is the right length such that an inch of travel at the tip is about 1 degree of rotation, so with a couple of marks on the bridgedeck it's easy to see how many degrees of helm I have. I could also simulate the weight on the edge of the wheel on a tiller by taping a chunk of lead to the tip of the tiller. This is changing the moment of inertia. When the tiller isn't moving, it's harder to start moving. When it is moving, it's harder to stop. You have reminded me of a delivery trip for a racing boat I did long ago. I say to the skipper my arms and shoulders hurt from steering, can we ease the sheet? The skipper said, see that mark on the sheet, when that mark is at that position, the boat is fast. I definitely could have used a bigger wheel for that trip, that's if I haven't tripped up in my logic someplace. Could it be that when you're talking about a better feel, that with some boats the force fed back is too big and so you want a bigger wheel so you have more gain to reduce the load you feel? A lesson I learned years ago about helm feel versus weather helm. Our club had an Islander 26. It had a very balanced spade rudder. I'm sailing along with the rail almost buried and the tiller has very little pull on it. I say to my friend, wow this boat is nicely balanced, there's very little helm. He smiles at me and says look at where you have the tiller. It was in my lap, maybe 20 degrees off center. This is a fun thing to teach new Hobie 16 sailors, as with no centerboard the racers discovered that raking the mast aft makes the boat faster upwind by reducing leeway by loading up the rudders. You make the feedback go away by raking the rudders forward so they're balanced. It's incredible how bad the helm feels until you balance the rudders. It's also scary if you go too far, now you have positive feedback and the rudder keeps trying to turn. John Courter Strider Cal 40 ----- Original Message ---- From: Robin roberts <re… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 9:54:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: An Answer for The Group... (Rob) (was) a question for the group. I understand what you are saying, and empirically, that is true if we are thinking of steering, The larger wheel does exert more steering power with less pressure on the wheel. I like that in heavy seas. but if we are talking about the "feel" of the rudder, returning back to the wheel, think of it this way.... If your rudder, reacting to sea conditions and steering angle moves the center hub of your wheel 1/8 inch, how much does the outside of the wheel move? I have not done any true calculations due to a very frantic 2 days, but just for an exanple, assume the hub of the wheel is two inches. If pressure on the rudder moves the hub 1/8 inch then the outer rim of a 20 inch wheel would move over one inch, and the rim of a 30 inch wheel should move almost two inches. Additionally, the added mass (weight) of a larger wheel due to kinetic energy should return more pressure in addition to the incremental movement. One other thing I like about a larger wheel is the ability to make fine adjustments. The larger wheel exerts more leverage (force) on the rudder when needed for fast turns, but when fine adjustment is needed (narrow channel - berthing) there is less tendancy to oversteer with a larger wheel. I used to have a 42 footer with a 24 inch wheel. Now I have a 34 footer with a 30 inch wheel. In retrospect, I wish we had gone to a larger wheel on the other boat. All of that being said, every one of us has our own likes and dislikes, and what works for one may not make sense for another. Cockpit space, walking room, seating, etc... all play into the decision. On the 34, the 30 inch wheel makes it tight getting around the wheel, but I am 6ft tall and 175 lbs, (skinny) so this does not bother me. Someone with a heavier build might prefer a smaller wheel for convenience in getting around the cockpit. I hope all of this makes sense God's blessings to all Rob Selah 77 Cal 3/34 #56 John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> wrote: I've only steered a couple of boats with wheels, and one of them was hydraulic, so there was no feedback, but it seems to me that a larger wheel has more advantage (gain) than a smaller wheel, so you would get less feedback with a larger wheel. John Courter Strider Cal 40 ************ ********* ******* --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Robin roberts <revrob420@. ..> wrote: > > The rudder on our boat is big enough, that with the 30 inch wheel, returns a good feel for the boat and seas as long as the tension lock is released. A smaller wheel does not return as good a feel for the boat. When single handing, that tension lock is a real nice feature. > > > Rob Roberts > Selah > 77 Cal 3/34 #56 > Recent Activity 6 New Members 3 New Photos Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS Sailing Boating Sailing boat Boating sailing Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. .