"6 Pack" license

Why should anyone want to get a "6 pack" license? when woudl one be required? Reggie Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash with Live Search! http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline

you need to have a license if you act as skipper on a boat that has passengers who have paid to be on the boat. A 6-pack, aka operator of uninspected vessels or OUPV license, is a limited license that allows what it says: up to 6 passengers on uninspected vessels only. It's most appropriate for small charter fishing or cruising skippers. From: "r good" <my… [at] hotmail.com> To: <ca… [at] list.sailnet.net>; <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>; <Ca… [at] groups.msn.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:12 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license > Why should anyone want to get a "6 pack" license? when woudl one be > required? > Reggie > > _________________________________________________________________ > Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash > with > Live Search! > http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Bob Walden wrote: > > you need to have a license if you act as skipper on a boat that has > passengers who have paid to be on the boat. > And here's a cautionary tale about paying to be on the boat. Our local nonprofit, Maritime Heritage Alliance, operates a replica Great lakes schooner that we sail around the lakes in the summer to give dockside tours and talks about the role of schooners in the region's history. We are NOT licensed to carry passengers for hire. We don't. But 6 or 8 years ago, we got a call from the Coast Guard. As a courtesy, we send them our newsletter. One little article mentioned that members could sign up for the weekday evening member sails when the boat was in town. Whoa!!!! No can do!!!! The requirement that you be a member to go on a member sail meant that we were requiring money to go out on the boat, hence were carrying passengers for hire. So now we don't have member sails, we have "heritage sails," and anybody who calls up can go out. Of course, you're not likely to hear about this unless you get our newsletter, so we don't have lines forming at the office. So the lesson is, be careful about the paying passenger idea. I seem to recall cases in which asking the crew to bring the beer was regarded as carrying for hire. It's like saying, "your ticket to come aboard is beer, or food, or whatever." Maybe the way to think about this is that if you're exchanging something of value for the right to come aboard, you need to be licensed. Chris Campbell

Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. Now, if some enterprising, unlicensed skipper creates a "club" on paper, the real reason for which is to collect fees from passengers, then yes, there's an issue. I guess it would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. This seems somewhat similar to another case I heard about, where someone donated a day-cruise on their boat to a charitable auction. The "winner" of the auction could be construed as being a paying passenger, but to me, the fact that no "consideration" flowed to either the owner or the skipper, and the fact that it was a one-time event and not an ongoing enterprise, should have exempted it too. BTW, as far as I know, these rules only apply to motorized vessels, either as primary or auxillary propulsion. Licenses are not required, for instance, for dinghy instructors. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Bob Walden wrote: you need to have a license if you act as skipper on a boat that has passengers who have paid to be on the boat. And here's a cautionary tale about paying to be on the boat. Our local nonprofit, Maritime Heritage Alliance, operates a replica Great lakes schooner that we sail around the lakes in the summer to give dockside tours and talks about the role of schooners in the region's history. We are NOT licensed to carry passengers for hire. We don't. But 6 or 8 years ago, we got a call from the Coast Guard. As a courtesy, we send them our newsletter. One little article mentioned that members could sign up for the weekday evening member sails when the boat was in town. Whoa!!!! No can do!!!! The requirement that you be a member to go on a member sail meant that we were requiring money to go out on the boat, hence were carrying passengers for hire. So now we don't have member sails, we have "heritage sails," and anybody who calls up can go out. Of course, you're not likely to hear about this unless you get our newsletter, so we don't have lines forming at the office. So the lesson is, be careful about the paying passenger idea. I seem to recall cases in which asking the crew to bring the beer was regarded as carrying for hire. It's like saying, "your ticket to come aboard is beer, or food, or whatever." Maybe the way to think about this is that if you're exchanging something of value for the right to come aboard, you need to be licensed. Chris Campbell

Bob Walden wrote: > > Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have > over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of > clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This > doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership > costs money. > > . > > We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers for hire. Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because they're a good organization). Chris Campbell

Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to qualify. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Bob Walden wrote: Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. . We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers for hire. Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because they're a good organization). Chris Campbell

Yikes! I have twice now donated a daysail with gourmet picnic lunch to my children¹s school an auction item. Turned out to be a delightful way to share sailing with others and solicit a donation for the PTA. I was thinking about doing this again this year for my daughter¹s high school booster club. Sounds like I need to get a 6 pack license for this. How difficult is it to obtain? Are we expressing opinions here, or does this activity definitely require the license? Terry Spencer Cal 2-29 Capriccio Tacoma, WA From: "Bob Walden" <bo… [at] bobwalden.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:40:07 -0800 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to qualify. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chris Campbell <mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license > > > Bob Walden wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have >> over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs >> that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't >> (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. >> >> >> >> >> . >> >> >> > We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same > sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a > licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their > qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for > clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not > carrying passengers for hire. > > Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. > > But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come > aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because > they're a good organization). > > Chris Campbell >

Terry, my reference point has always been that I am getting nothing for doing this. They are not paying me, they are paying a charity. I am donating time, boat, fuel, and on and on as part of the gig. However, an interesting curiosity for the lawyers in our group.... Suppose somebody did a charity thing on the boat, and then turned around and wrote off what would have been the cost of a charter as a charitable donation? Imagine getting arrested for taking some Boy Scouts sailing. Arrggg. And I always thought that a 6-pack license set a limit on how much you could drink during an event. Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Terrence Spencer Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Yikes! I have twice now donated a daysail with gourmet picnic lunch to my children's school an auction item. Turned out to be a delightful way to share sailing with others and solicit a donation for the PTA. I was thinking about doing this again this year for my daughter's high school booster club. Sounds like I need to get a 6 pack license for this. How difficult is it to obtain? Are we expressing opinions here, or does this activity definitely require the license? Terry Spencer Cal 2-29 Capriccio Tacoma, WA From: "Bob Walden" <bo… [at] bobwalden.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:40:07 -0800 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to qualify. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell <mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> <mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Bob Walden wrote: Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. . We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers for hire. Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because they're a good organization). Chris Campbell

Me too! There was a bidding war for a 4hr harbor sail and the school received a donation of $160.00. We supply the boat, food and drink. (Ironically, it cost us money to provide all for the trip.) This is our donation to the School. The school is not paying us for a service and the passenger is not paying us for a service. We have an agreement with the school to simply take a their donator out for a free ride, food and drink. We are not a charter business or pretending to be one. We are not personally accepting or exchanging any form of compensation for the transportation. We are simply providing a donation to the school just like the passengers who are simply providing a donation to the school. How can a donation of any kind be construed as a for hire or for profit? So if one donates a bottle of Booze does the donor of the Booze have to have a liquor license? This is a simple case of two donors creating a benefit for the school or a common good. I may be legally way off base here, but its been one of those days......and after a few glasses of wine who gives a flying golly wobbler, were taking them out anyway! I like the idea of getting a six pack for passing the test! Mark Cal 2-29 Pelican San Pedro From: Terrence Spencer To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Yikes! I have twice now donated a daysail with gourmet picnic lunch to my children's school an auction item. Turned out to be a delightful way to share sailing with others and solicit a donation for the PTA. I was thinking about doing this again this year for my daughter's high school booster club. Sounds like I need to get a 6 pack license for this. How difficult is it to obtain? Are we expressing opinions here, or does this activity definitely require the license? Terry Spencer Cal 2-29 Capriccio Tacoma, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Bob Walden" <bo… [at] bobwalden.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:40:07 -0800 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to qualify. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell <mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Bob Walden wrote: Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. . We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers for hire. Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because they're a good organization). Chris Campbell

And I always thought that a 6-pack license set a limit on how much you could drink during an event. Cheers, Anyway Charlie ...and I only served the finest Northwest Microbrews! Terry Spencer Cal 2-29 Capriccio Tacoma, WA

Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" licenseTechnically, it's not if the skipper is getting paid, it's if the passengers are paying that makes them passengers. For instance, if you only have working crew aboard for a delivery, you can be paid as skipper for the trip and you don't need a license, since they're crew, not passengers. But if they pay money to do the trip (even 1 of them), then they're considered passengers and the skipper needs a license. ----- Original Message ----- From: Husar Charlie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:10 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Terry, my reference point has always been that I am getting nothing for doing this. They are not paying me, they are paying a charity. I am donating time, boat, fuel, and on and on as part of the gig. However, an interesting curiosity for the lawyers in our group.... Suppose somebody did a charity thing on the boat, and then turned around and wrote off what would have been the cost of a charter as a charitable donation? Imagine getting arrested for taking some Boy Scouts sailing. Arrggg. And I always thought that a 6-pack license set a limit on how much you could drink during an event. Cheers, Anyway Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Terrence Spencer Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Yikes! I have twice now donated a daysail with gourmet picnic lunch to my children's school an auction item. Turned out to be a delightful way to share sailing with others and solicit a donation for the PTA. I was thinking about doing this again this year for my daughter's high school booster club. Sounds like I need to get a 6 pack license for this. How difficult is it to obtain? Are we expressing opinions here, or does this activity definitely require the license? Terry Spencer Cal 2-29 Capriccio Tacoma, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Bob Walden" <bo… [at] bobwalden.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:40:07 -0800 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to qualify. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell <mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license Bob Walden wrote: Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. . We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers for hire. Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because they're a good organization). Chris Campbell

-- six pack license is more difficult to obtain than most people think. It is a license to operate or navigate passenger carrying vessels of 15 tons or less vessel of not more than 15 tons with the limit of 6 paying passengers. which brings up the legal point of what is a paying passenger they may only be guests but if one slips and hurt themself on board your boat and that person can prove that they helped pay for gas food dockage etc. You can be sued for carrying a passenger that entrusted the captain with thier health and welfare. I ran my own charter business starting out with a six pack then going up to a hundred and twenty five tons. I would say to all check with the U.S.coast guard regulations as to what legally constitutes a paying passenger versus a passenger on a charity trip. - In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bob Walden" <bob@...> wrote: > > Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" licenseTechnically, it's not if the skipper is getting paid, it's if the passengers are paying that makes them passengers. For instance, if you only have working crew aboard for a delivery, you can be paid as skipper for the trip and you don't need a license, since they're crew, not passengers. But if they pay money to do the trip (even 1 of them), then they're considered passengers and the skipper needs a license. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Husar Charlie > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:10 PM > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license > > > Terry, my reference point has always been that I am getting nothing for doing this. They are not paying me, they are paying a charity. I am donating time, boat, fuel, and on and on as part of the gig. However, an interesting curiosity for the lawyers in our group.... > > Suppose somebody did a charity thing on the boat, and then turned around and wrote off what would have been the cost of a charter as a charitable donation? > > Imagine getting arrested for taking some Boy Scouts sailing. Arrggg. > > And I always thought that a 6-pack license set a limit on how much you could drink during an event. > > Cheers, Anyway > Charlie > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Terrence Spencer > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:16 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license > > > Yikes! I have twice now donated a daysail with gourmet picnic lunch to my children's school an auction item. Turned out to be a delightful way to share sailing with others and solicit a donation for the PTA. I was thinking about doing this again this year for my daughter's high school booster club. Sounds like I need to get a 6 pack license for this. How difficult is it to obtain? Are we expressing opinions here, or does this activity definitely require the license? > > Terry Spencer > Cal 2-29 > Capriccio > Tacoma, WA > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > From: "Bob Walden" <bob@...> > Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:40:07 -0800 > To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license > > > > > > Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to qualify. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chris Campbell <mailto:clcampbell@...> > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license > > > Bob Walden wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said club membership costs money. > > > > > . > > > > > We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers for hire. > > Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. > > But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving tours (and because they're a good organization). > > Chris Campbell >

It's been pretty well established in court that "shared cost" charters do not constitute "consideration". In other words, in the scenario below, you wouldn't be construed to be operating a vessel without a license. On the other hand, to my knowledge, you're no less liable for guest's injuries if you're not licensed. If it's your boat, and someone gets hurt on it, you will be liable for their damages. Insurance is good stuff. bw From: "brian59nogales" <br… [at] yahoo.com> To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 10:52 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: "6 Pack" license > -- > six pack license is more difficult to obtain than most people think. > It is a license to operate or navigate passenger carrying vessels of > 15 tons or less vessel of not more than 15 tons with the limit of 6 > paying passengers. > which brings up the legal point of what is a paying passenger they > may only be guests but if one slips and hurt themself on board your > boat and that person can prove that they helped pay for gas food > dockage etc. > You can be sued for carrying a passenger that entrusted the captain > with thier health and welfare. > I ran my own charter business starting out with a six pack then > going up to a hundred and twenty five tons. > I would say to all check with the U.S.coast guard regulations as to > what legally constitutes a paying passenger versus a passenger on a > charity trip. > > - In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bob Walden" <bob@...> wrote: >> >> Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" licenseTechnically, it's not if the > skipper is getting paid, it's if the passengers are paying that > makes them passengers. For instance, if you only have working crew > aboard for a delivery, you can be paid as skipper for the trip and > you don't need a license, since they're crew, not passengers. But if > they pay money to do the trip (even 1 of them), then they're > considered passengers and the skipper needs a license. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Husar Charlie >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:10 PM >> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license >> >> >> Terry, my reference point has always been that I am getting > nothing for doing this. They are not paying me, they are paying a > charity. I am donating time, boat, fuel, and on and on as part of > the gig. However, an interesting curiosity for the lawyers in our > group.... >> >> Suppose somebody did a charity thing on the boat, and then > turned around and wrote off what would have been the cost of a > charter as a charitable donation? >> >> Imagine getting arrested for taking some Boy Scouts sailing. > Arrggg. >> >> And I always thought that a 6-pack license set a limit on how > much you could drink during an event. >> >> Cheers, Anyway >> Charlie >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- >> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Terrence Spencer >> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:16 PM >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license >> >> >> Yikes! I have twice now donated a daysail with gourmet picnic > lunch to my children's school an auction item. Turned out to be a > delightful way to share sailing with others and solicit a donation > for the PTA. I was thinking about doing this again this year for my > daughter's high school booster club. Sounds like I need to get a 6 > pack license for this. How difficult is it to obtain? Are we > expressing opinions here, or does this activity definitely require > the license? >> >> Terry Spencer >> Cal 2-29 >> Capriccio >> Tacoma, WA >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- >> From: "Bob Walden" <bob@...> >> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:40:07 -0800 >> To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license >> >> >> >> >> >> Agreed--gotta go along with the coasties and not sweat the small > stuff. Sounds like this is enough of a commercial operation to > qualify. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Chris Campbell <mailto:clcampbell@...> >> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:23 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license >> >> >> Bob Walden wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Hmmm, sounds to me like the cg commander of that region may > have over-extended the definition of a paying passenger. There's > lots of clubs that restrict access to their boats to only their > members. This doesn't (imho) make them passengers, even if said > club membership costs money. >> >> >> >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> We aren't a club, and the members aren't using the boats in > quite the same sense. It's a corporation, and the members are > being taken sailing by a licensed captain. Members can assist as > crew or not, depending on their qualifications and desires. Maybe > the rules make different provisions for clubs in which members can > take boats out by themselves. Then you're not carrying passengers > for hire. >> >> Or maybe the CG guy was overzealous. >> >> But we changed our practice--you don't want to p.o. the CG, > since they come aboard and inspect us at dockside when we're giving > tours (and because they're a good organization). >> >> Chris Campbell >> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

masconsult wrote: > > > How can a donation of any kind be construed as a for hire or for profit? > Maybe the key here is whether you're taking a deduction on your income tax return--are you deducting any costs and expenses as a charitable contribution? If so, then it's equivalent to carrying passengers for a price then donating the money to the organization. If you're not taking a deduction, then it's more like a volunteer activity. That's my view, but I don not practice tax law, so beware. Maybe the greater concern is how your insurance company would view this if someone were injured. Insurance companies are notorious for using any pretext whatsoever to deny coverage. It's become worse since the great "deregulation" boom of the last few decades. Chris Campbell

again: the issue is not "is the skipper being paid", its "is the guest paying". In the latter case, the guest becomes a passenger, and the vessel requires a licensed captain, whether he or she be paid or not. In the case of a donation, the issue is that the guest has paid money to be a passenger. That money was in the form of a donation to a charity, but that doesn't change the fact that cash was paid for conveyance. IMHO, if this happens informally and not on a regular basis, then it should fall under the same exception that "shared costs" charters do. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:18 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] "6 Pack" license masconsult wrote: How can a donation of any kind be construed as a for hire or for profit? Maybe the key here is whether you're taking a deduction on your income tax return--are you deducting any costs and expenses as a charitable contribution? If so, then it's equivalent to carrying passengers for a price then donating the money to the organization. If you're not taking a deduction, then it's more like a volunteer activity. That's my view, but I don not practice tax law, so beware. Maybe the greater concern is how your insurance company would view this if someone were injured. Insurance companies are notorious for using any pretext whatsoever to deny coverage. It's become worse since the great "deregulation" boom of the last few decades. Chris Campbell