Re: [Cal_Boats] MOB Lessons learned

Thanks for a great re-cap Randy! As skipper of a racing team, I now know I will be doing more MOB drills with my crew members. As I see it, I should have drills where I am in charge (as the skipper) and also a chain of command, if it is I, that falls overboard. Even though we read stories like this semi-regularly, it does not hit home nearly as much, as when it comes from the mouth of someone you know. Your incident has certainly brought safety back to the forefront in my mind. I believe your skipper failed miserably, and although it is easy to sit here and say I would not have made the same mistakes, we never really know how we will react until faced with the same situation. That is of course where the drills come into play. Thanks again Randy; Daniel Casey "Air Time" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca.

Randy - I finally got a few minutes to read your write-up on events and your survival. Great writing - you definitely conveyed the feeling while maintaining an objective description of being in the water. I'll use some of your lessons to change what I carry on my infatible pfd as well get more serious about using jacklines on a more regular basis since I single-hand a lot on the Bay. Your description has definitely given me pause to think about some of my practices - as well as reminding me that I haven't practiced MOB drills for quite a while. Welcome back - and I hope you never have to go there again. Tom Tilley 1982 Cal 9.2 "Lenochka" Hull #53 San Mateo, CA Sponsored Link Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's in less than one year.www.findtherightschool.com

Thank you Dan for your support, I see this bigger than my skipper failing me. There was two boats and 4 people out there, that didn't know what to do in an MOB situation. respectfully, Randy ai… [at] aol.com wrote: Thanks for a great re-cap Randy! As skipper of a racing team, I now know I will be doing more MOB drills with my crew members. As I see it, I should have drills where I am in charge (as the skipper) and also a chain of command, if it is I, that falls overboard. Even though we read stories like this semi-regularly, it does not hit home nearly as much, as when it comes from the mouth of someone you know. Your incident has certainly brought safety back to the forefront in my mind. I believe your skipper failed miserably, and although it is easy to sit here and say I would not have made the same mistakes, we never really know how we will react until faced with the same situation. That is of course where the drills come into play. Thanks again Randy; Daniel Casey "Air Time" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

Randy Alcorn wrote: > > > There was two boats and 4 people out there, that didn't know what to > do in an MOB situation. > > > > */ai… [at] aol.com/* wrote: > > Thanks for a great re-cap Randy! As skipper of a racing team, I > now know I will be doing more MOB drills with my crew members. > OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you use, and why. Most of my sailing is single-handed these days so I haven't been diligent about practicing. I read the articles from time to time but don't have enough experience with real-worlds COB conditions to know what actually works. It's likely that list members have some firm opinions on this (can you imagine any sailing subject on which sailors don't have firm opinions? We won't even get into which knot is appropriate for securing the anchor rode....) Chris Campbell

> OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you use, > and why. Most of my sailing is single-handed these days so I haven't > been diligent about practicing. I read the articles from time to time > but don't have enough experience with real-worlds COB conditions to know > what actually works. It's likely that list members have some firm > opinions on this (can you imagine any sailing subject on which sailors > don't have firm opinions? We won't even get into which knot is > appropriate for securing the anchor rode....) > > Chris Campbell > ******************************** frankly, now that all the back slapping has died down...... i just can't understand why every one of you guys don't have a "T" track of some sort running up both sides of your cabin trunk to the fore-deck; and when you go forward, you can just "snap" into a traveler that stay's on the "T" track with a short heavy safety line that has an approved safety shock-link in it just incase you do decide to float-test your *PFD*. it is this very simple and idiot-proof system that has been used on every bloody round-hulled pig-boat the Navy ever built. the other thing that i will have on BB-54 is a solid top-rail on the railings from the cockpit to just a foot or so forward of the mast-step. i will also raze the hand-rail height from it's current and assenine height of just 18". to the minimum required height of 30". i will also add both a solid middle rail, and a solid toe-rail at 2" off the deck. and i will tell you all another thing; you are not going to ever get a dripping wet adult out of the water with just one or two people if that wet person has been in the water for 30 minutes and you need to pull him 3' or more up over the side of a boat in a rolling windy sea. in fact, you are not even going to be able to get a decent hold on the guy! so two things. don't ever jump in the cold water with him! and do have a plan to get a man out of the water after you find him. even if that means cutting the rigging off the damn boom and using that. sails and rigging can be replaced, humans can't! but it is always better to have a set of lifting gear ahead of time. and not just a puny 4 to 1 with 5/16 or 3/8 line. that wet piece of near dead fish meat you will be pilling out of the water is likely to be limp even if he is still talking to you. get your self really good ball-gearing 6 to 1 blocks with 1/2" line that you can get your cold wore-out hands around. and make damn sure that every person on board has a *PFD* with a built-in lifting *D* ring. you are not going to be able to get one on that near dead fish while he is in the water and bouncing under you damn hull. and lastly; you better make sure that everyone on board can get that tub your sailing turned into the wind and stopped so they don't drag you until you drown ..... fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now resting outside my shop Federal Way, Wa. (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......)

There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, "Man Overboard!" The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can't reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack - forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side - sheets, boat hooks, whatever - help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you've got 'em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable's harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I'm to the point where I feel funny if I don't have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don't forget the rules of sailing: 1. Keep the water out of the boat. 2. Keep the people in the boat. 3. Have fun. 4. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that > we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a > Life Sling can be a big help. > > > >snipped > I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when > out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold > water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or > hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, > everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. In Mexico, near Cabo, a few years ago, a charter fishing boat went down and the passengers all went into 80 degree water in PFDs. They were found and recovered in 12 hours. All were dead of hypothermia. Warm water is still a good conductor and is colder than you are or than you can survive. It makes the survival of that middle aged woman who fell off the cruise ship in the south Atlantic a few years ago even more amazing. She must have been really fat. They found her treading water three days after she went in. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "slickbutfoxbuger" <fiverhrairoo@...> wrote: > > > OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you > use, > > and why. snipped > > i just can't understand why every one of you guys don't have > a "T" track of some sort running up both sides of your cabin trunk to > the fore-deck; and when you go forward, you can just "snap" into a > traveler that stay's on the "T" track with a short heavy safety line > that has an approved safety shock-link in it just incase you do > decide to float-test your *PFD*. > We have in the past used a length of covered wire similar to a lifeline that is attached at the bow to a pad eye and near the cockpit to another pad eye. This line runs along the cabin on each side and it is easy to snap a lifeline to the cable and go from cockpit to bow without having to unsnap and reattach a safety harness but, once back in fair weather or at a mooring, the cable can be coiled up and stowed. This will keep you attached to the boat. That is better than all the GPS and spotter aids when somebody is no longer attached to the boat. When we went through the hurricane in the 1977 La Paz Race, we all wore bathing suits, PFDs and safety harnesses all night. It was that hot and blowing 60+. My memory is fading but I think we had the wire cable rigged for that race. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

We rig jacklines on our Farr 36 when we race offshore, no matter what the conditions are forecast. And we have a permanently mounted wire jackline in the cockpit. We also always carry a MOM-8 module and an EPIRB, and there's usually about 3-4 GPS's around to punch the MOB button on. We also routinely carry a lifesling and a throw-rope in a bag attached to the stern rail. On the other hand...do we actually ever snap on? It has to be pretty wild to get us to do so. It's really hard to work a competitive racer while wearing a tether. The tactician, driver and main trimmer could snap on most of the time but are at the least risk. The bowman and mastman are at the most risk but require a lot of mobility. The cockpit crew have a hard enough time right now getting off the rail and into their tacking positions without dealing with teathers. It would become an I Love Lucy sketch instanly, with everyone tangled in everyone else's tether. It's a tough choice. For cruising, I have no doubts, especially after the incident last year where a father lost his teenage son right out of the cockpit, here off of Point Reyes. After that, frankly, in my boat when we're cruising offshore, we snap on, even in the cockpit. Hell, we're just sitting there, there's no reason NOT to. But on a racer, it's a different issue. Yes, you might be safer, but can you still really compete? You'd be safer still back at the dock, but that's not what boats are for. In the end I suspect on the racer we'll continue to wait until conditions are atrocious before we snap on, and we'll stress safety and situational awareness, one hand for you the other for the boat, keep your center of balance low, and watch out for each other. That last one is important, I think: on a racer, with a crew of 10+ during some of the more exciting rodeos, you could easily have a MOB and not even notice it! I try to get people to "buddy up" and keep an eye on each other, and I do a headcount as soon as I can think about it after any wildness has occurred. bw Cal 39-2 "Sea Star" Richmond, CA From: "mtkennedy1" <mt… [at] cox.net> To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion... .. (was) Lessons learned > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "slickbutfoxbuger" <fiverhrairoo@...> > wrote: >> >> > OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you >> use, >> > and why. > > snipped > >> >> i just can't understand why every one of you guys don't have >> a "T" track of some sort running up both sides of your cabin trunk to >> the fore-deck; and when you go forward, you can just "snap" into a >> traveler that stay's on the "T" track with a short heavy safety line >> that has an approved safety shock-link in it just incase you do >> decide to float-test your *PFD*. >> > > We have in the past used a length of covered wire similar to a lifeline > that is attached at > the bow to a pad eye and near the cockpit to another pad eye. This line > runs along the > cabin on each side and it is easy to snap a lifeline to the cable and go > from cockpit to bow > without having to unsnap and reattach a safety harness but, once back in > fair weather or > at a mooring, the cable can be coiled up and stowed. This will keep you > attached to the > boat. That is better than all the GPS and spotter aids when somebody is no > longer attached > to the boat. > > When we went through the hurricane in the 1977 La Paz Race, we all wore > bathing suits, > PFDs and safety harnesses all night. It was that hot and blowing 60+. My > memory is fading > but I think we had the wire cable rigged for that race. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

Well said, Rog. As a Seascout vessel doing open ocean races, we adopted a rule of always, spelled ALWAYS, wearing a PFD on deck, from the starting line at Annapolis inside the Chesapeake, to the dinghy at St. Georges. That applies to adults and youths both. Usually they are not worn extensively in part because the need is not apparent, and partly because you look like sissies when you are the only one on board or the only boat in the fleet using them. Our practise is so absolute that we have become insensitive to our status as sissies, and actually take pride in the practise. In addition, we use tethers ALOT - at night, in rough weather, on a two-person watch, or in lively open water. Note that the new Mustang hydrostatic inflatable PFDs are now available. And now required in Maryland waters are the infant PFDs with head flotation, grab-strap and crotch strap. Also a much improved pet PFD than the solid yellow ones. John Dawson Kefi, Balto. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, “Man Overboard!” The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can’t reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack – forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side – sheets, boat hooks, whatever – help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you’ve got ‘em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable’s harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I’m to the point where I feel funny if I don’t have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don’t forget the rules of sailing: Keep the water out of the boat. Keep the people in the boat. Have fun. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

Hi, John - Where can I learn more about the improved pet PFD? We sail with at least one of our seven dogs pretty much every time. Thanks. \Rog _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Dawson Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:50 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Fiver and all) Well said, Rog. As a Seascout vessel doing open ocean races, we adopted a rule of always, spelled ALWAYS, wearing a PFD on deck, from the starting line at Annapolis inside the Chesapeake, to the dinghy at St. Georges. That applies to adults and youths both. Usually they are not worn extensively in part because the need is not apparent, and partly because you look like sissies when you are the only one on board or the only boat in the fleet using them. Our practise is so absolute that we have become insensitive to our status as sissies, and actually take pride in the practise. In addition, we use tethers ALOT - at night, in rough weather, on a two-person watch, or in lively open water. Note that the new Mustang hydrostatic inflatable PFDs are now available. And now required in Maryland waters are the infant PFDs with head flotation, grab-strap and crotch strap. Also a much improved pet PFD than the solid yellow ones. John Dawson Kefi, Balto. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, "Man Overboard!" The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can't reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack - forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side - sheets, boat hooks, whatever - help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you've got 'em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable's harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I'm to the point where I feel funny if I don't have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don't forget the rules of sailing: 1. Keep the water out of the boat. 2. Keep the people in the boat. 3. Have fun. 4. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http:/music.yahoo.com /unlimited/> Music Unlimited.

The pet PFD is WM labelled, and is red/yellow. I don't know who the manufacturer is offhand although it probably is Stearns if I had to guess. Its the same basic design as predecessors but looks 100% more robust and better made and fitting, and looks like you could haul an average dog aboard with it, unlike the previous lightweight models sold by WM and Petsmart. I was told the small version comes with the stuffed dog that models it in stores. On another note, I have a problem about liferafts. We bought a new ISAF 8-man raft this year, and have an offshore Avon 6-man cannister raft no longer being used. I would like to sell it to a fellow that fishes offshore, but pricing it is very difficult. Anyone have an inkling of how long these rafts are viable? A general idea of their lifespan would help to prorate it. The repack services are being very unhelpful in making generalities here. Here's the scoop. Its about 12-14 years old, bought when our Mason43 changed owners and brought the boat to the East Coast. So its never been used, always kept with the same boat, and serviced (and approved) by the leading repacker for the mid-Atlantic in 2004 and 2005. (We skipped this year due to the new purchase.) Summary: the age and history are known, and its condition has been certified as recently as last year. It lives in a hard cannister in its sealed envelope; we are only asking under $300-500 for it. A reinspection will probably cost near $400. So, what is a reasonable lifespan, or when would you (ie the Cal list) opt to replace an expensive item for ocean safety? John D. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: Hi, John – Where can I learn more about the improved pet PFD? We sail with at least one of our seven dogs pretty much every time. Thanks. \Rog --------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Dawson Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:50 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Fiver and all) Well said, Rog. As a Seascout vessel doing open ocean races, we adopted a rule of always, spelled ALWAYS, wearing a PFD on deck, from the starting line at Annapolis inside the Chesapeake, to the dinghy at St. Georges. That applies to adults and youths both. Usually they are not worn extensively in part because the need is not apparent, and partly because you look like sissies when you are the only one on board or the only boat in the fleet using them. Our practise is so absolute that we have become insensitive to our status as sissies, and actually take pride in the practise. In addition, we use tethers ALOT - at night, in rough weather, on a two-person watch, or in lively open water. Note that the new Mustang hydrostatic inflatable PFDs are now available. And now required in Maryland waters are the infant PFDs with head flotation, grab-strap and crotch strap. Also a much improved pet PFD than the solid yellow ones. John Dawson Kefi, Balto. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, “Man Overboard!” The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can’t reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack – forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side – sheets, boat hooks, whatever – help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you’ve got ‘em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable’s harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I’m to the point where I feel funny if I don’t have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don’t forget the rules of sailing: Keep the water out of the boat. Keep the people in the boat. Have fun. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

Rog, My friend Steve notes that when a PFD is in the water, they suddenly go from a dark color to yellow. John Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: Hi, John – Where can I learn more about the improved pet PFD? We sail with at least one of our seven dogs pretty much every time. Thanks. \Rog --------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Dawson Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:50 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Fiver and all) Well said, Rog. As a Seascout vessel doing open ocean races, we adopted a rule of always, spelled ALWAYS, wearing a PFD on deck, from the starting line at Annapolis inside the Chesapeake, to the dinghy at St. Georges. That applies to adults and youths both. Usually they are not worn extensively in part because the need is not apparent, and partly because you look like sissies when you are the only one on board or the only boat in the fleet using them. Our practise is so absolute that we have become insensitive to our status as sissies, and actually take pride in the practise. In addition, we use tethers ALOT - at night, in rough weather, on a two-person watch, or in lively open water. Note that the new Mustang hydrostatic inflatable PFDs are now available. And now required in Maryland waters are the infant PFDs with head flotation, grab-strap and crotch strap. Also a much improved pet PFD than the solid yellow ones. John Dawson Kefi, Balto. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, “Man Overboard!” The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can’t reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack – forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side – sheets, boat hooks, whatever – help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you’ve got ‘em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable’s harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I’m to the point where I feel funny if I don’t have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don’t forget the rules of sailing: Keep the water out of the boat. Keep the people in the boat. Have fun. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Rog, > > My friend Steve notes that when a PFD is in the water, they suddenly go from a dark color to yellow. > You folks might be interested to know that I ordered two of the Mustang inflatable PFDs with safety harness from the new Sailnet site and they cancelled the order with no explanation today. I suspect the price was too good. Guess that was a failed test. Annapolis Performance Sailing had them on sale but they were gone by the time I saw the sale. No more Sailnet for me. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Nice, why not write this up in a non-insulting like article w/ real directions and some diagrams? Sounds like good info, but hard to read. Marsh slickbutfoxbuger wrote: >>OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you >> >> >use, > > >>and why. Most of my sailing is single-handed these days so I >> >> >haven't > > >>been diligent about practicing. I read the articles from time to >> >> >time > > >>but don't have enough experience with real-worlds COB conditions to >> >> >know > > >>what actually works. It's likely that list members have some firm >>opinions on this (can you imagine any sailing subject on which >> >> >sailors > > >>don't have firm opinions? We won't even get into which knot is >>appropriate for securing the anchor rode....) >> >>Chris Campbell >> >> >> >******************************** > >frankly, now that all the back slapping has died down...... > > i just can't understand why every one of you guys don't have >a "T" track of some sort running up both sides of your cabin trunk to >the fore-deck; and when you go forward, you can just "snap" into a >traveler that stay's on the "T" track with a short heavy safety line >that has an approved safety shock-link in it just incase you do >decide to float-test your *PFD*. > it is this very simple and idiot-proof system that has been >used on every bloody round-hulled pig-boat the Navy ever built. > > the other thing that i will have on BB-54 is a solid top-rail >on the railings from the cockpit to just a foot or so forward of the >mast-step. i will also raze the hand-rail height from it's current >and assenine height of just 18". to the minimum required height of >30". i will also add both a solid middle rail, and a solid toe-rail >at 2" off the deck. > and i will tell you all another thing; > you are not going to ever get a dripping wet adult out of >the water with just one or two people if that wet person has been in >the water for 30 minutes and you need to pull him 3' or more up over >the side of a boat in a rolling windy sea. in fact, you are not even >going to be able to get a decent hold on the guy! so two things. > don't ever jump in the cold water with him! > and do have a plan to get a man out of the water after you find >him. even if that means cutting the rigging off the damn boom and >using that. sails and rigging can be replaced, humans can't! > but it is always better to have a set of lifting gear ahead of >time. and not just a puny 4 to 1 with 5/16 or 3/8 line. that wet >piece of near dead fish meat you will be pilling out of the water is >likely to be limp even if he is still talking to you. get your self >really good ball-gearing 6 to 1 blocks with 1/2" line that you can >get your cold wore-out hands around. and make damn sure that every >person on board has a *PFD* with a built-in lifting *D* ring. you are >not going to be able to get one on that near dead fish while he is in >the water and bouncing under you damn hull. > and lastly; > you better make sure that everyone on board can get that tub >your sailing turned into the wind and stopped so they don't drag you >until you drown ..... > > >fiver, >Master of The "BB-54" >one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks >out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) >now resting outside my shop >Federal Way, Wa. > >(built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Marsh - There is a brief article in the current 'lectronic Latitude (www.latitude38.com <http://www.latitude38.com/> ) and there will be a full article in the next regular Latitude 38. Randy may have been knocked overboard, but the knockout result of this near-tragedy is going to help every sailor who takes the time to read Latitude 38, which, it just happens, is the most widely circulated of all sailing magazines. Thanks again, Randy!! \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marsh Wise Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:02 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion... .. (was) Lessons learned Nice, why not write this up in a non-insulting like article w/ real directions and some diagrams? Sounds like good info, but hard to read. Marsh

Hi, Mike - The Mustang vests need crotch straps. If you buy them (or anybody else's), be sure to take them down to a sailmaker or a canvas shop and have the straps added. Also, the 1-inch attachable crotch straps you buy at W-M are too flimsy. You need 2-inch nylon to properly support most people's weight in a lift. W-M will match anybody's advertised price on items they stock or have in their catalog - the do stock or catalog Mustang vests - by the way, so you can simply print out the best ad you can find from the internet and take it to W-M and get the same price without paying for shipping. I do that for almost all the stuff I buy for the kids' program and for our boats. One really nice thing that Mustang makes, are their cold-water survival suits. They really work. \Rog _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:46 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Rog) --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Rog, > > My friend Steve notes that when a PFD is in the water, they suddenly go from a dark color to yellow. > You folks might be interested to know that I ordered two of the Mustang inflatable PFDs with safety harness from the new Sailnet site and they cancelled the order with no explanation today. I suspect the price was too good. Guess that was a failed test. Annapolis Performance Sailing had them on sale but they were gone by the time I saw the sale. No more Sailnet for me. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > Hi, Mike - > > > > The Mustang vests need crotch straps. If you buy them (or anybody else's), > be sure to take them down to a sailmaker or a canvas shop and have the > straps added. Also, the 1-inch attachable crotch straps you buy at W-M are > too flimsy. You need 2-inch nylon to properly support most people's weight > in a lift. > > > > W-M will match anybody's advertised price on items they stock or have in > their catalog - the do stock or catalog Mustang vests - by the way, so you > can simply print out the best ad you can find from the internet and take it > to W-M and get the same price without paying for shipping. I do that for > almost all the stuff I buy for the kids' program and for our boats. > > > > One really nice thing that Mustang makes, are their cold-water survival > suits. They really work. Spinlock also makes a similar combo vest that has leg straps. According to Sailing World, that makes them not Coast Guard approved. Thanks, Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Unfortunately I have to report that WM (or the retailers in charge of it now) is absolutely putting the screws to EVERYTHING they can find in order to make Wall Street happy. The return policy is changing, the associate discounts have been reduced, time off will be altered, Internet matching (even for their own site) will soon be a thing of the past, inventory is being 'simplified' to make your shopping choices easier, and the experiment with lower prices is over. Sorry. You didn't hear it here. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: Hi, Mike – The Mustang vests need crotch straps. If you buy them (or anybody else’s), be sure to take them down to a sailmaker or a canvas shop and have the straps added. Also, the 1-inch attachable crotch straps you buy at W-M are too flimsy. You need 2-inch nylon to properly support most people’s weight in a lift. W-M will match anybody’s advertised price on items they stock or have in their catalog – the do stock or catalog Mustang vests – by the way, so you can simply print out the best ad you can find from the internet and take it to W-M and get the same price without paying for shipping. I do that for almost all the stuff I buy for the kids’ program and for our boats. One really nice thing that Mustang makes, are their cold-water survival suits. They really work. \Rog --------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:46 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Rog) --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Rog, > > My friend Steve notes that when a PFD is in the water, they suddenly go from a dark color to yellow. > You folks might be interested to know that I ordered two of the Mustang inflatable PFDs with safety harness from the new Sailnet site and they cancelled the order with no explanation today. I suspect the price was too good. Guess that was a failed test. Annapolis Performance Sailing had them on sale but they were gone by the time I saw the sale. No more Sailnet for me. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

Hi, Mike - I don't know from Coast Guard approved. As a member of the Coast Guard Auxiliary, though, I can tell you that all the newer Government Issue vest that the CG uses have crotch straps. Later. \Rog Spinlock also makes a similar combo vest that has leg straps. According to Sailing World, that makes them not Coast Guard approved. Thanks, Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Unfortunately I have to report that WM (or the retailers in charge of it now) is absolutely putting the screws to EVERYTHING they can find in order to make Wall Street happy. The return policy is changing, the associate discounts have been reduced, time off will be altered, Internet matching (even for their own site) will soon be a thing of the past, inventory is being 'simplified' to make your shopping choices easier, and the experiment with lower prices is over. Sorry. Maybe they could simplify and use the time to keep 1/4 nylock nuts and bolts in stock. The fastener bins do not have bar codes and the store staff tell me that this means they don't get replentished sometimes for months. I now buy these fasteners from jamestown, which is still cheaper even with shipping from Rhode Island. MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

John Dawson wrote: > Unfortunately I have to report that WM (or the retailers in charge of > it now) is absolutely putting the screws to EVERYTHING they can find > in order to make Wall Street happy. The return policy is changing, the > associate discounts have been reduced, time off will be altered, > Internet matching (even for their own site) will soon be a thing of > the past, inventory is being 'simplified' to make your shopping > choices easier, and the experiment with lower prices is over. Sorry. > Old-time listoids will be rolling their eyes when Chris begins his biennial West Marine rant but here goes. This is the difference between your old local chandlery and West Marine. WM must answer to Wall Street, which means attaining what the bean-counters regard as a proper return on investment and all that. Your local boat-stuff peddler only has to answer to his own need for income, his creditors, and maybe some partners. If he's making a comfortable living, he's happy. He can afford to do things that make his local customers happy and that bring them back to the store. He can even decide who his customers are! He can target people who own boats and make a business of meeting their needs--a local niche. Wall Street doesn't ask if WM is making the boat folks happy. If they can make gobs of money selling boat-themed casual clothing to people who hang out on the docks or on the beach, that's good enough for Wall Street. Wall Street doesn't care if you find your favorite varnish, or that cool Harken block, or the bottom paint you need on the shelves or in the catalog. The free-market theory is that you can choose to go to the local guy if WM doesn't meet your needs. Problem is, WM is like that other big player with the same initials, Wal-Mart. Once they've run all the local competitors out of business, you're stuck with what they choose to offer. Your choices have gone out of business. West Marine has done that in the communities where I live and sail. I still maintain that organizations like West Marine owe something to their customers. One thing they owe is certain levels of service, and one component of service is offering stuff that the customers need, even if it's not a high-volume item. Efficiency is not the only criterion for performance. West Marine's inventory has been shrinking for years, offering less and less choice, fewer and fewer options. Those cool little doo-dads that we sailors need from time to time have disappeared from the shelves. A number of years ago in an unguarded moment a clerk ("associate") explained that most people don't know what they're doing, and all those choices just confused them (so West diminished the choices to satisfy the dim-witted). Frankly, I like choices when choosing allows me to meet my boat's specific needs. And I dislike being taken for dim-witted. Even if I am. I have been searching West's shelves in two locations for the nice waxed whipping twine they used to carry. It was exactly the right form and weight for my uses. After multiple trips, and "associate" caught me before I trotted out the door in disgust. I explained what they were lacking--still--and he explained that some big corporate reorganization of the sailing stock was going on, and they were not refilling inventory until that was done. Now I know the whole story. So West Marine has been Milton-Friedmanized, and we are all the losers for it. Makes me grumpy as hell, in case you didn't notice. Harrumph. Chris Campbell

Hi Rog, I am trying catch up on the this. I think you got a wonderful start for us to make a safety sheet we can teach crew and skippers. I crewed on a Olson 30 this weekend and the skipper went over his MOB drill. He had us all repeat it out loud. Can I add two things to your list? 1. The Coast Guard wants to be contacted. With all that is going on, I don't know when and what if you are short crew? I was glad to find out that the other two helos where 20 min. 2. Something we always practice on my boat is a figure eight. We jibe or tack and head above the victum and then turn around and return circling with the recovery gear in the water. Hope this helps. Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands CA Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, “Man Overboard!” The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can’t reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack – forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side – sheets, boat hooks, whatever – help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you’ve got ‘em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable’s harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I’m to the point where I feel funny if I don’t have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don’t forget the rules of sailing: Keep the water out of the boat. Keep the people in the boat. Have fun. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

Hi Chris, I single hand majority of the time, I belong to the Pacific Singlehanded Sailing Association. They have a lot of single handed long distance races. You are allowed to use a Auto pilot, which I have not gotten one yet. It allows for Sail Changes, spinnaker sets and just taking it easy. I hope to be set up for the 2007 season. Jacklines are on deck all the time. The only time I am not teathered in is when I am in the cock pit, if it gets rough then I clip in. At night for some reason, I am to edgy and always stay clipped in. Even when I dose off for a second. I think the time most single handed skippers fall over board are when they are facing aft, over the stern. I missed the meeting where they had the guy whose power boat crashed into Catalina Island. He was taking care of buisness when he went over board. He swam to a channel bouy and fought the seals off it so he could get out of the water. His brother was the one who found him. He was in pretty sad shape, but made it and he is talking about it. I would have to say, make sure you have a way to get back on the boat, I am going to a built in ladder off the stern. I have a folding ladder now and a recent trip to the islands taught me a valuable lesson why a ladder should be ready at all times. Then if all else fails, carry an EPIRB and hope time is on our side. Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands Ca Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: Randy Alcorn wrote: There was two boats and 4 people out there, that didn't know what to do in an MOB situation. ai… [at] aol.com wrote: Thanks for a great re-cap Randy! As skipper of a racing team, I now know I will be doing more MOB drills with my crew members. OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you use, and why. Most of my sailing is single-handed these days so I haven't been diligent about practicing. I read the articles from time to time but don't have enough experience with real-worlds COB conditions to know what actually works. It's likely that list members have some firm opinions on this (can you imagine any sailing subject on which sailors don't have firm opinions? We won't even get into which knot is appropriate for securing the anchor rode....) Chris Campbell --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

I teach for an ASA sailing school, and I also attended last year's MOB symposium here in sf bay (report at http://www.boatus.com/foundation/findings/COBfinalreport/). As far as maneuvers go, there's many to choose from. The right one is the one that works. All rescues are done in 3 stages: return, make contact, and recover. Return means getting within reaching or at least line-throwing range. The latter is only realistic if the MOB is concious. Contact means connecting the MOB to the boat, either grabbing by hand or with a line. Recovery is often the hardest part: getting them aboard. Mid-ships for most sailboats works the best (we did dozens of real recoveries of 200-pound divers, using all possible equipment including none, and with both cooperative and simulated unconcious swimmers. It's a bear.) I would say that in all cases it works best to approach the MOB on a close reach course--assuming you're sailing. If you're close reaching you have maximum control: you're heading upwind, so luffing decelerates you and hardening up accelerates you. You can usually do it with only the main, and letting the jib either luff or strike it. There's a fair amount of controversy about the side of the boat to bring the MOB along. If you go upwind of him, you can let the wind push you down to him, but if the seas are rough, he might be driven under. If you go downwind of him, you'll quickly drift away from him. Tradeoffs either way. If you're close-hauled when the MOB event occurs, the quick stop is very good. You basically just tack immediately and keep turning in a tight circle, bleeding off speed, and deploy your lifesling or any line with floatation, with a goal of wrapping it around the MOB. Once he has it in hand, you can heave to and start recovery. If you have a kite up (something I have not practiced), I'd say that you'd want to head up, do an emergency guy-drop douse (blow the tack, in other words), get the kite down, then get the MOB lined up on a close-reach course and go to them. Whatever the maneuver, someone on board needs to have no other job but to POINT and LOOK and the MOB, never taking their eyes or finger off, even for a moment, until the MOB is alongside. Randy's ordeal underlines the importance of this. Losing sight of the MOB is usually fatal (thank God not in Randy's case). By pointing, the pointer both keeps their own visual reference, and the driver can also just look at the pointer's hand to see where the MOB is--the driver doesn't really need to look for the MOB themselves. Punching the MOB function on a GPS is also a good thing. So is throwing all available flotation as soon as possible. There's a ton more to say. Have a look at the symposium findings at http://www.boatus.com/foundation/findings/COBfinalreport/. bw From: Randy Alcorn To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Fiver and all) Hi Rog, I am trying catch up on the this. I think you got a wonderful start for us to make a safety sheet we can teach crew and skippers. I crewed on a Olson 30 this weekend and the skipper went over his MOB drill. He had us all repeat it out loud. Can I add two things to your list? 1. The Coast Guard wants to be contacted. With all that is going on, I don't know when and what if you are short crew? I was glad to find out that the other two helos where 20 min. 2. Something we always practice on my boat is a figure eight. We jibe or tack and head above the victum and then turn around and return circling with the recovery gear in the water. Hope this helps. Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands CA Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, "Man Overboard!" The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can't reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack - forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side - sheets, boat hooks, whatever - help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you've got 'em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable's harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I'm to the point where I feel funny if I don't have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don't forget the rules of sailing: 1.. Keep the water out of the boat. 2.. Keep the people in the boat. 3.. Have fun. 4.. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

Hiya, Randy - I deliberately didn't suggest a pattern, though I too like the figure 8 when it's appropriate. Don't know if you saw last summer's West Marine/US Sailing MOB drills in the Bay that were reviewed in Latitude 38, but there are a bunch of patterns and what you do depends largely on what works in a given situation and what you're good at. The ONLY real MOB I've been involved with was when we were on a beat, completing a headsail change and the other foredeck guy, crouching right next to me got washed over the side in the middle of the Catalina Channel about 12 miles off of South Entrance in about thirty knots of air and lumpy cold seas. This was before there were inflatables and nobody wore PFDs. The skipper almost instantly put the helm over onto the opposite tack to stall the boat, released the sheets (main and jib) and we literally drifted broadside right down onto our crew member. This was in a Cal 34. We didn't call the Coast Guard, but you are absolutely right that should be included in the list. How about somebody writes this up as an MOB procedure, let's everyone contribute and then posts it on this website as a file that can be downloaded, like say, a PDF - hey, wait, how about Alfred? He's the writer, here. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Alcorn Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:55 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Fiver and all) Hi Rog, I am trying catch up on the this. I think you got a wonderful start for us to make a safety sheet we can teach crew and skippers. I crewed on a Olson 30 this weekend and the skipper went over his MOB drill. He had us all repeat it out loud. Can I add two things to your list? 1. The Coast Guard wants to be contacted. With all that is going on, I don't know when and what if you are short crew? I was glad to find out that the other two helos where 20 min. 2. Something we always practice on my boat is a figure eight. We jibe or tack and head above the victum and then turn around and return circling with the recovery gear in the water. Hope this helps. Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands CA ._,___

I clip on all the time, even in the cockpit in broad daylight, when cruising in the open ocean. Racing's a different issue, but when cruising, in my opinion there isn't any reason NOT to clip on. I've come to this position for myself and I realize others will have different positions on this, and that's OK, I wouldn't want to say anyone is right or wrong on this issue. We all just have to make up our own minds. Here's the story that convinced me to do this: http://pdxhamlins.net/andy/ The above accident happened right here near SF, and 5 foot seas are below average here. "Sneaker" wave sets happen all the time, and it doesn't take a 20-footer to cause havoc. So now when we're not in the cabin, we're clipped on, and when we go below, we stay clipped on until we're below the companionway. The tethers stay hanging down into the cabin, and we clip on again before we climb the ladder. And we keep the hatch closed and hatchboards in. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Alcorn To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] MOB Lessons learned Hi Chris, I single hand majority of the time, I belong to the Pacific Singlehanded Sailing Association. They have a lot of single handed long distance races. You are allowed to use a Auto pilot, which I have not gotten one yet. It allows for Sail Changes, spinnaker sets and just taking it easy. I hope to be set up for the 2007 season. Jacklines are on deck all the time. The only time I am not teathered in is when I am in the cock pit, if it gets rough then I clip in. At night for some reason, I am to edgy and always stay clipped in. Even when I dose off for a second. I think the time most single handed skippers fall over board are when they are facing aft, over the stern. I missed the meeting where they had the guy whose power boat crashed into Catalina Island. He was taking care of buisness when he went over board. He swam to a channel bouy and fought the seals off it so he could get out of the water. His brother was the one who found him. He was in pretty sad shape, but made it and he is talking about it. I would have to say, make sure you have a way to get back on the boat, I am going to a built in ladder off the stern. I have a folding ladder now and a recent trip to the islands taught me a valuable lesson why a ladder should be ready at all times. Then if all else fails, carry an EPIRB and hope time is on our side. Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands Ca Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: Randy Alcorn wrote: There was two boats and 4 people out there, that didn't know what to do in an MOB situation. ai… [at] aol.com wrote: Thanks for a great re-cap Randy! As skipper of a racing team, I now know I will be doing more MOB drills with my crew members. OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you use, and why. Most of my sailing is single-handed these days so I haven't been diligent about practicing. I read the articles from time to time but don't have enough experience with real-worlds COB conditions to know what actually works. It's likely that list members have some firm opinions on this (can you imagine any sailing subject on which sailors don't have firm opinions? We won't even get into which knot is appropriate for securing the anchor rode....) Chris Campbell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Hi Chris, > snipped > > I think the time most single handed skippers fall over board are when they are facing aft, over the stern. > > I missed the meeting where they had the guy whose power boat crashed into Catalina Island. He was taking care of buisness when he went over board. Buddy Ebsen's famous advice to a young crewman comes to mind. When asked if he could pee off the stern, Ebsen said it was OK but most of the people found drowned have their flys unzipped. Keep one hand holding on. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Excuse me Mike, but they are feeding you Spam here. Its true the fastener section is not replenished by computer barcodes; its a little hard to put little barcodes on each nut or have cashiers look up the right barcode for each washer. Thats why they are sold on the honor system - you tell them quantity and price, right? The fasteners are replenished by a person looking thru the section and punching in the desired WM sku into the computer, just like they order the bags for the front counter, can be done every week. Then they come on the WM truck from the warehouse just like everything else in the store. Its the only merchandise in the store actually ordered by humans, and the humans are being lax if the bins are empty. All thats happening is the task is getting neglected haphazardly; either the store manager has not designated a specific person to stay on top of this, or the designated person is doing it when they get around to it. Perhaps the manager does it him/herself monthly and the staff are at his/her mercy. Do them a favor and confront the store manager, suggest he/she designate a person and check on them regularly. It only takes a few minutes a week. They might complain about getting the little bins overstocked; I can suggest a method for managing that little problem too. If you get more excuses, mention the words "Showtime" and "district manager" in the same sentence and watch those bins spill over. You did hear it here. John D. mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> wrote: --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Unfortunately I have to report that WM (or the retailers in charge of it now) is absolutely putting the screws to EVERYTHING they can find in order to make Wall Street happy. The return policy is changing, the associate discounts have been reduced, time off will be altered, Internet matching (even for their own site) will soon be a thing of the past, inventory is being 'simplified' to make your shopping choices easier, and the experiment with lower prices is over. Sorry. Maybe they could simplify and use the time to keep 1/4 nylock nuts and bolts in stock. The fastener bins do not have bar codes and the store staff tell me that this means they don't get replentished sometimes for months. I now buy these fasteners from jamestown, which is still cheaper even with shipping from Rhode Island. MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Excuse me Mike, but they are feeding you Spam here. > > Its true the fastener section is not replenished by computer barcodes; its a little hard to put little barcodes on each nut or have cashiers look up the right barcode for each washer. Thats why they are sold on the honor system - you tell them quantity and price, right? The fasteners are replenished by a person looking thru the section and punching in the desired WM sku into the computer, just like they order the bags for the front counter, can be done every week. Then they come on the WM truck from the warehouse just like everything else in the store. Its the only merchandise in the store actually ordered by humans, and the humans are being lax if the bins are empty. I don't mean to offend you but that is why I was told they have been out of the most common sizes of bolt and nut for MONTHS ! The same is true of the Long Beach store at Alamitos Bay. I don't care what WM does one way or another but don't tell me I am telling the list something that is not true. The bar codes are on the front of the bins but no one checks the bins. I was told that by the employees of the San Pedro store. Would you like to meet me there Thursday and ask them ? MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Chris: Sounds dire. When our WM in nola reopens hopefully in February - at least that is the gossip - I will have to drop by to find out. Unfortunately I have found their selection to be seriously wanting in recent years. Janet Plume, Editor/Gulf Shipper 826 Fern Street New Orleans, La. 70118 504-866-7076 cell: 504-250-4539 email: jp… [at] joc.com We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:48 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Internet matching (was MOB discussion ) John Dawson wrote: Unfortunately I have to report that WM (or the retailers in charge of it now) is absolutely putting the screws to EVERYTHING they can find in order to make Wall Street happy. The return policy is changing, the associate discounts have been reduced, time off will be altered, Internet matching (even for their own site) will soon be a thing of the past, inventory is being 'simplified' to make your shopping choices easier, and the experiment with lower prices is over. Sorry. Old-time listoids will be rolling their eyes when Chris begins his biennial West Marine rant but here goes. This is the difference between your old local chandlery and West Marine. WM must answer to Wall Street, which means attaining what the bean-counters regard as a proper return on investment and all that. Your local boat-stuff peddler only has to answer to his own need for income, his creditors, and maybe some partners. If he's making a comfortable living, he's happy. He can afford to do things that make his local customers happy and that bring them back to the store. He can even decide who his customers are! He can target people who own boats and make a business of meeting their needs--a local niche. Wall Street doesn't ask if WM is making the boat folks happy. If they can make gobs of money selling boat-themed casual clothing to people who hang out on the docks or on the beach, that's good enough for Wall Street. Wall Street doesn't care if you find your favorite varnish, or that cool Harken block, or the bottom paint you need on the shelves or in the catalog. The free-market theory is that you can choose to go to the local guy if WM doesn't meet your needs. Problem is, WM is like that other big player with the same initials, Wal-Mart. Once they've run all the local competitors out of business, you're stuck with what they choose to offer. Your choices have gone out of business. West Marine has done that in the communities where I live and sail. I still maintain that organizations like West Marine owe something to their customers. One thing they owe is certain levels of service, and one component of service is offering stuff that the customers need, even if it's not a high-volume item. Efficiency is not the only criterion for performance. West Marine's inventory has been shrinking for years, offering less and less choice, fewer and fewer options. Those cool little doo-dads that we sailors need from time to time have disappeared from the shelves. A number of years ago in an unguarded moment a clerk ("associate") explained that most people don't know what they're doing, and all those choices just confused them (so West diminished the choices to satisfy the dim-witted). Frankly, I like choices when choosing allows me to meet my boat's specific needs. And I dislike being taken for dim-witted. Even if I am. I have been searching West's shelves in two locations for the nice waxed whipping twine they used to carry. It was exactly the right form and weight for my uses. After multiple trips, and "associate" caught me before I trotted out the door in disgust. I explained what they were lacking--still--and he explained that some big corporate reorganization of the sailing stock was going on, and they were not refilling inventory until that was done. Now I know the whole story. So West Marine has been Milton-Friedmanized, and we are all the losers for it. Makes me grumpy as hell, in case you didn't notice. Harrumph. Chris Campbell

I'll call that store tomorrow and ask them what the problem is. Seems unlikely to me there is a fastener shortage on the West Coast that doesn't exist on the East Coast, or that their procedures are completely different. I'm not questioning that thats what they told you, I just don't understand it because I've ordered fasteners for four years and the only time we are out of something is if I get lazy. Yes there are barcodes on the labels, and WM skus also. Fasteners are not sold by barcodes, they are not tracked by barcodes, they are not counted at inventory by barcode, and they are not ordered for the bins by barcodes unless we are talking about bulk bags of them. Perhaps that is what you are referring to. The WM sku is entered by hand into the Intrepid program under 'fasteners, letters, whatever" menu to fill the bins in every store I know. You say 'no one checks the bins', well, the computer doesn't either so that's the problem. I understand you are frustrated and angry at their apparent incompetence, but I'm trying to help, not offend you. John D. mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> wrote: --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, John Dawson <jdawson229@...> wrote: > > Excuse me Mike, but they are feeding you Spam here. > > Its true the fastener section is not replenished by computer barcodes; its a little hard to put little barcodes on each nut or have cashiers look up the right barcode for each washer. Thats why they are sold on the honor system - you tell them quantity and price, right? The fasteners are replenished by a person looking thru the section and punching in the desired WM sku into the computer, just like they order the bags for the front counter, can be done every week. Then they come on the WM truck from the warehouse just like everything else in the store. Its the only merchandise in the store actually ordered by humans, and the humans are being lax if the bins are empty. I don't mean to offend you but that is why I was told they have been out of the most common sizes of bolt and nut for MONTHS ! The same is true of the Long Beach store at Alamitos Bay. I don't care what WM does one way or another but don't tell me I am telling the list something that is not true. The bar codes are on the front of the bins but no one checks the bins. I was told that by the employees of the San Pedro store. Would you like to meet me there Thursday and ask them ? MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

Ok, I understand that it's frustrating to go to the store and not find what you want or need. I experience the same thing here in Annapolis. The bottom line, however is that there are always other options for getting what you want. if WM is plainly unreliable, then research the other options and stop shopping there. I find them great for all sorts of odds & ends, but don't shop for fasteners there any longer. I also don't think it's fair to pick on the bean counters or Wall Street for the problems of the selection at West Marine. I'm an accountant and an avid sailor. You can blame the boating public for settling for their second choice instead of going out and finding what they want. If people stopped shopping at West, then the shareholders would take notice. I am an accountant, so I resent the notion that it's my peers fault that WM has changed it's focus from sailors to powerboaters. Most powerboaters don't do their own work on their boat, except to add cutsie cushions or drink holders. They enjoy the "smack the throttle and go" mentality as if they were driving a car. As the power gemagraphic is increasing at a faster rate than sailing, WM is simply going with where the $$$$ are. It's the sailing communities fault for not promoting ourselves and winning people over to sailing instead of powerboating. Just my $.02. Scott S. Accountant/Sailor Cal 25 #1651 Indefatigable Annapolis, MD >From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> >Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Internet matching (was MOB discussion ) >Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:48:22 -0500 > >John Dawson wrote: >>Unfortunately I have to report that WM (or the retailers in charge of it >>now) is absolutely putting the screws to EVERYTHING they can find in order >>to make Wall Street happy. The return policy is changing, the associate >>discounts have been reduced, time off will be altered, Internet matching >>(even for their own site) will soon be a thing of the past, inventory is >>being 'simplified' to make your shopping choices easier, and the >>experiment with lower prices is over. Sorry. >> > > > > > > >Old-time listoids will be rolling their eyes when Chris begins his biennial >West Marine rant but here goes. This is the difference between your old >local chandlery and West Marine. WM must answer to Wall Street, which >means attaining what the bean-counters regard as a proper return on >investment and all that. Your local boat-stuff peddler only has to answer >to his own need for income, his creditors, and maybe some partners. If >he's making a comfortable living, he's happy. He can afford to do things >that make his local customers happy and that bring them back to the store. > >He can even decide who his customers are! He can target people who own >boats and make a business of meeting their needs--a local niche. Wall >Street doesn't ask if WM is making the boat folks happy. If they can make >gobs of money selling boat-themed casual clothing to people who hang out on >the docks or on the beach, that's good enough for Wall Street. Wall Street >doesn't care if you find your favorite varnish, or that cool Harken block, >or the bottom paint you need on the shelves or in the catalog. > >The free-market theory is that you can choose to go to the local guy if WM >doesn't meet your needs. Problem is, WM is like that other big player with >the same initials, Wal-Mart. Once they've run all the local competitors >out of business, you're stuck with what they choose to offer. Your choices >have gone out of business. West Marine has done that in the communities >where I live and sail. > >I still maintain that organizations like West Marine owe something to >their customers. One thing they owe is certain levels of service, and one >component of service is offering stuff that the customers need, even if >it's not a high-volume item. Efficiency is not the only criterion for >performance. > >West Marine's inventory has been shrinking for years, offering less and >less choice, fewer and fewer options. Those cool little doo-dads that we >sailors need from time to time have disappeared from the shelves. A number >of years ago in an unguarded moment a clerk ("associate") explained that >most people don't know what they're doing, and all those choices just >confused them (so West diminished the choices to satisfy the dim-witted). >Frankly, I like choices when choosing allows me to meet my boat's specific >needs. And I dislike being taken for dim-witted. Even if I am. > >I have been searching West's shelves in two locations for the nice waxed >whipping twine they used to carry. It was exactly the right form and >weight for my uses. After multiple trips, and "associate" caught me before >I trotted out the door in disgust. I explained what they were >lacking--still--and he explained that some big corporate reorganization of >the sailing stock was going on, and they were not refilling inventory until >that was done. Now I know the whole story. > >So West Marine has been Milton-Friedmanized, and we are all the losers for >it. Makes me grumpy as hell, in case you didn't notice. > >Harrumph. > >Chris Campbell Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk

Yeah, but Scott, it's sooooo satisfying :-Þ Marsh Scott Sauvageot wrote: >I also don't think it's fair to pick on the bean counters or Wall Street for >the problems of the selection at West Marine. > > > >

Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > Ok, I understand that it's frustrating to go to the store and not find > what > you want or need. I experience the same thing here in Annapolis. The > bottom line, however is that there are always other options for > getting what > > you want. > The problem is that they've driven out the local competitors--by coming in, offering great selection and prices, and then after the local guys have given up, greatly reducing their stock and service. > if WM is plainly unreliable, then research the other options and > stop shopping there. I find them great for all sorts of odds & ends, but > don't shop for fasteners there any longer. > > I also don't think it's fair to pick on the bean counters or Wall > Street for > the problems of the selection at West Marine. I'm an accountant and an > avid > sailor. You can blame the boating public for settling for their second > choice instead of going out and finding what they want. If people stopped > shopping at West, then the shareholders would take notice. I am an > accountant, so I resent the notion that it's my peers fault that WM has > changed it's focus from sailors to powerboaters. > I wasn't trying to blame accountants for executive policy choices. My reference to bean-counters was intended to refer to those Wall Street analysts who decide what kind of earnings are acceptable. They have a lot of influence on large publicly-traded organizations, in a way that small local retailers are not affected. > Most powerboaters don't do > their own work on their boat, except to add cutsie cushions or drink > holders. They enjoy the "smack the throttle and go" mentality as if they > were driving a car. As the power gemagraphic is increasing at a faster > rate > than sailing, WM is simply going with where the $$$$ are. > It's not just numbers of boaters. The cushions and drink holders probably have larger markup. I know that capitalists pursue profits. There's just this quaint notion that maximizing profit is not the only virtue. There is the notion of serving your community, sometimes at a cost, sometimes in the interest of long-term success, sometimes just because it's the right thing to do. My family background and personal career are all in the professions. Not many retailers among us. All my life I've been told that you have obligations to your community and that maximizing income cannot be the highest or only goal. My dad made a comfortable but not maximum income as a physician, because he made service one of his values. Some of his colleagues made a lot more money and spent a lot more time playing, but they did not appear to have notably happier lives. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect corporations to conform to notions of behavior that we apply to people. That's why I feel free to criticize WM. And to reiterate, I'm not dumping on accountants. My uncle, as decent and honest a guy as you'd ever find, one of those guys who went ashore on D-Day and never talked about it, was one. I am lamenting the influence that has been gained by Wall Street analysts. > . Chris Campbell

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "mtkennedy1" <mtkennedy1@...> wrote: > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "slickbutfoxbuger" <fiverhrairoo@> wrote: > > > > > OK, guys, how about a discussion of which MOB (COB) procedures you > > use, > > > and why. > I posted a comment the other day that I had ordered Mustang PFD/Harness sets from Sailnet and then, without explanation, got an e-mail that the order had been cancelled. I posted a comment that maybe the price had been too good and I was unhappy that they had cancelled the sale with no explanation. Today I got an e-mail from Rog that he told somebody he knows who told somebody in the company about the complaint. Here is te original e-mail: ***Do not reply to this e-mail. UPS and Marine.com / SailNet.com will not receive your reply. At the request of Marine.com / SailNet.com, this notice alerts you the following shipment has been cancelled. Original Shipment Detail Ship To: University of Southern Californi Michael Kennedy XXXXXXXXXXX MISSION VIEJO CA 926916201 US Number of Packages: 1 UPS Service: GROUND Weight: 5.0 LBS Lead Tracking Number: 1ZYE74840396955877 Reference Number 1: 765453 I don't see any explanation. The guy at Sailnet wants an apology for the post but, aside from acknowledging that they responded to Rog a lot faster than they would respond to one of us, I don't see any reason to apologize. I haven't gotten the vests yet. I'll be glad to see them when they arrive and I will so inform the group. If you want something done in marine supply, Rog is the guy to get it done. I bought a lot of stuff from them in their previous incarnation. Maybe I'll buy some more but they need to work on communication. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Hi, Mike - You are a cardiac surgeon. Mistakes you make cause lives. Those I or Sailnet or West Marine or most retailers make usually just cause inconveniences. Sailnet does a huge amount for the sailing community by providing forums and informational articles and a lot of other stuff in addition to just selling us gear. West Marine is there for Transpac and Pacific Cup and so many other events I can't name them all. The email I got didn't ask for an apology, it acknowledged Sailnet had made a mistake and tried to correct it and hoped for you to post a note saying they'd screwed up and were trying to make it right for you. I think that's a good thing and can't blame them. According to Chris Colton, the fellow who sent me the note, you should have your vests on Friday. Hopefully that will be the case. I know these people, Mike, and they are good people and trying hard to do a good thing. I agree, Sailnet and West Marine (for different reasons) need to work on their communications. But we could all learn to be a little better at that. Except me, of course. I'm perfect and have never failed to properly communicate. BTW I am running for office next year. That way I can be with the government and be here to help whenever you need me. Hehehe. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet Mike wrote: I posted a comment the other day that I had ordered Mustang PFD/Harness sets from Sailnet and then, without explanation, got an e-mail that the order had been cancelled. I posted a comment that maybe the price had been too good and I was unhappy that they had cancelled the sale with no explanation. Today I got an e-mail from Rog that he told somebody he knows who told somebody in the company about the complaint. Here is te original e-mail: ***Do not reply to this e-mail. UPS and Marine.com / SailNet.com will not receive your reply. At the request of Marine.com / SailNet.com, this notice alerts you the following shipment has been cancelled. Original Shipment Detail Ship To: University of Southern Californi Michael Kennedy XXXXXXXXXXX MISSION VIEJO CA 926916201 US Number of Packages: 1 UPS Service: GROUND Weight: 5.0 LBS Lead Tracking Number: 1ZYE74840396955877 Reference Number 1: 765453 I don't see any explanation. The guy at Sailnet wants an apology for the post but, aside from acknowledging that they responded to Rog a lot faster than they would respond to one of us, I don't see any reason to apologize. I haven't gotten the vests yet. I'll be glad to see them when they arrive and I will so inform the group. If you want something done in marine supply, Rog is the guy to get it done. I bought a lot of stuff from them in their previous incarnation. Maybe I'll buy some more but they need to work on communication. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > Hi, Mike - > > > > You are a cardiac surgeon. Mistakes you make cause lives. Those I or Sailnet > or West Marine or most retailers make usually just cause inconveniences. > Sailnet does a huge amount for the sailing community by providing forums and > informational articles and a lot of other stuff in addition to just selling > us gear. West Marine is there for Transpac and Pacific Cup and so many other > events I can't name them all. > > > > The email I got didn't ask for an apology, it acknowledged Sailnet had made > a mistake and tried to correct it and hoped for you to post a note saying > they'd screwed up and were trying to make it right for you. I think that's a > good thing and can't blame them. "I would like to think that Mr. Kennedy posted a subsequent post to his thread and either retracted his statement or described what turned out to be the full story." I took the term "retracted" as a request for an apology but stand corrected. My problem was that I got no explanation. The text almost suggested that the credit card had been declined or some other problem with my credit. Maybe I'm too sensitive but when I was a medical student, I attempted to buy a refrigerator on credit from Sears. It was about $250. I finally called to ask if it was delayed and the operator said "You won't be getting that refrigerator." I had flunked the credit test. I asked if it had ever occurred to them that I would pay cash if the credit was declined. No it hadn't. I bought one somewhere else. Cancelling a sale suggests something other than a delivery problem. MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

I just want to inform the group that the good people at Sailboat Owners, and specifically, Dave Groshong, responded to an email I sent informing them of the loss of 1/2 of my outboard "power thruster." Dave had the manufacturer call me to discuss what happened. Even though I did not request relief, the manufacturer offered to send me another thruster fin to replace the one lost. At this time, there is nothing to attach the fin to, so told him maybe sometime in the future. We had a great discussion. I said I would send him photos to document his database. Great people! Bruce Stirling Gangfurd Cal 28 - Hull 28 http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Rog Jones Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:06 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sailnet and West Marine and mistakes (was MOB discussion)(Mike K) Hi, Mike - You are a cardiac surgeon. Mistakes you make cause lives. Those I or Sailnet or West Marine or most retailers make usually just cause inconveniences. Sailnet does a huge amount for the sailing community by providing forums and informational articles and a lot of other stuff in addition to just selling us gear. West Marine is there for Transpac and Pacific Cup and so many other events I can't name them all. The email I got didn't ask for an apology, it acknowledged Sailnet had made a mistake and tried to correct it and hoped for you to post a note saying they'd screwed up and were trying to make it right for you. I think that's a good thing and can't blame them. According to Chris Colton, the fellow who sent me the note, you should have your vests on Friday. Hopefully that will be the case. I know these people, Mike, and they are good people and trying hard to do a good thing. I agree, Sailnet and West Marine (for different reasons) need to work on their communications. But we could all learn to be a little better at that. Except me, of course. I'm perfect and have never failed to properly communicate. BTW I am running for office next year. That way I can be with the government and be here to help whenever you need me. Hehehe. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet Mike wrote: I posted a comment the other day that I had ordered Mustang PFD/Harness sets from Sailnet and then, without explanation, got an e-mail that the order had been cancelled. I posted a comment that maybe the price had been too good and I was unhappy that they had cancelled the sale with no explanation. Today I got an e-mail from Rog that he told somebody he knows who told somebody in the company about the complaint. Here is te original e-mail: ***Do not reply to this e-mail. UPS and Marine.com / SailNet.com will not receive your reply. At the request of Marine.com / SailNet.com, this notice alerts you the following shipment has been cancelled. Original Shipment Detail Ship To: University of Southern Californi Michael Kennedy XXXXXXXXXXX MISSION VIEJO CA 926916201 US Number of Packages: 1 UPS Service: GROUND Weight: 5.0 LBS Lead Tracking Number: 1ZYE74840396955877 Reference Number 1: 765453 I don't see any explanation. The guy at Sailnet wants an apology for the post but, aside from acknowledging that they responded to Rog a lot faster than they would respond to one of us, I don't see any reason to apologize. I haven't gotten the vests yet. I'll be glad to see them when they arrive and I will so inform the group. If you want something done in marine supply, Rog is the guy to get it done. I bought a lot of stuff from them in their previous incarnation. Maybe I'll buy some more but they need to work on communication. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Regarding the PFD's, is the West Marine 4000 series with harness and crotch strap accessory, the way to go, or is there a much better PFD available? Mark Pelican Cal 2-29 San Pedro ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dawson To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] MOB discussion (Rog) Rog, My friend Steve notes that when a PFD is in the water, they suddenly go from a dark color to yellow. John Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: Hi, John - Where can I learn more about the improved pet PFD? We sail with at least one of our seven dogs pretty much every time. Thanks. \Rog ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Dawson Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:50 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: MOB discussion (Fiver and all) Well said, Rog. As a Seascout vessel doing open ocean races, we adopted a rule of always, spelled ALWAYS, wearing a PFD on deck, from the starting line at Annapolis inside the Chesapeake, to the dinghy at St. Georges. That applies to adults and youths both. Usually they are not worn extensively in part because the need is not apparent, and partly because you look like sissies when you are the only one on board or the only boat in the fleet using them. Our practise is so absolute that we have become insensitive to our status as sissies, and actually take pride in the practise. In addition, we use tethers ALOT - at night, in rough weather, on a two-person watch, or in lively open water. Note that the new Mustang hydrostatic inflatable PFDs are now available. And now required in Maryland waters are the infant PFDs with head flotation, grab-strap and crotch strap. Also a much improved pet PFD than the solid yellow ones. John Dawson Kefi, Balto. Rog Jones <ro… [at] nvsailing.org> wrote: There are many different ways to get someone back aboard. The one thing that we can probably all agree on is that a swim step or a stern ladder and a Life Sling can be a big help. Upon a man overboard and assuming someone else is aboard, immediately start shouting, "Man Overboard!" The GPS MOB button should be triggered right then and there. If you have a man overboard pole and float, toss it in. Any non-living thing that floats should be dumped over the side or tossed to the swimmer for floatation and to act as markers to find the swimmer when you return. If you have a Life Sling (you should), toss it out or to the swimmer at once. If the swimmer can't reach it, at least you can swing around and drag it over him. I do turn on the engine, but do not engage the prop if the Life Sling is out (tangles) or I am close to the swimmer (possibility of serious prop chop). Immediately, one person is told to continuously point at the MOB and never, ever look away. That person should have NO OTHER DUTIES. If you have one (and you should) drop the stern laldder/swimstep. I like to immediately jibe or tack - forget about the sail trim niceties, let stuff flog. Upon return I put the swimmer in the lee of the boat, then using anything that you can get over the side - sheets, boat hooks, whatever - help the swimmer back to the swim step or stern ladder. There are a million ways to accomplish this maneuver and none of them are necessarily pretty. If they are wearing a harness, hook it and get a line through it immediately and tie it off to a winch. If not, get a line around them under their shoulders and tie a bowline or a carrick bend. Then tie off to the winch. Now you've got 'em. We have six personal GPS EPIRBS (one in each of our inflatables). If you can afford them, they are a very good idea. There is apparently a device that you can add to the inflatable that contains a self-deploying man overboard locator helium balloon on a twenty-foot tether that is hooked to the inflatable's harness. That would make a swimmer easier to find and to catch for a recovery. I have never seen one of these, though I have looked at the patent (U.S. Patent 6,805,070) assigned to Boeing). Smoke blows flat in a high wind and cannot be easily seen by a rescue boat in heavy swells. Dye markers are nice, too, but again only if you are expecting an aerial search. You have to get something up above the wave tops to be seen by a boat, even a few yards away. A head is very, very hard to spot in high seas. Same problem with many PFDs as they are dark in color. For visibility, yellow works better than almost anything. Dark foulies and dark clothing make you almost invisible. That includes red. I recommend that everyone wears an inflatable with a built-in harness when out racing or beyond an easy swim from land in warm water. In cold water/weather, everyone should wear one. Period. Death by drowning and/or hypothermia is probably a lousy way to end a day. Underway on my boat, everyone MUST properly wear a PFD. Our inflatable/harnesses all have an adjustable, two-inch nylon web crotch strap sewn into the back with a snap that hooks onto the D rings of the harness in front of the sternum. If you go overboard, you are immediately snatched into a head-high seated position. If you need to be air-lifted, all that is necessary is to snap into the D rings and you will not slip out of the harness. These are not a hindrance when working the foredeck, despite all the crap you might hear to the contrary. The newer, lightweight inflatables are very comfortable and become almost unnoticeable when you are used to them. I'm to the point where I feel funny if I don't have mine on. As the body becomes hypothermic, it shrinks somewhat and without a crotch strap you may slip out of the PFD. I related (more than once) the story of the fishing boat that may-dayed from an area just north of the Golden Gate. There were seven people aboard and they were sinking in sight of land. They were abandoning ship. All aboard were wearing inflatables. The rescue boat and helicopter got there in twenty minutes. They found one dead floater and six empty PFDs. The chopper pilot or rescue swimmer wrote about this in Practical Sailor about five years ago. The Coast Guard PFDs now all have heavy-duty crotch straps. Don't forget the rules of sailing: 1.. Keep the water out of the boat. 2.. Keep the people in the boat. 3.. Have fun. 4.. Always look good. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! 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Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > Hi, Mark - > > > > Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past > few days and too busy for emails. > > > > We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 > pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the > seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. > The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and > we've used them on our boats for some time. We finally got the Mustang PFDs from Sailnet and I was disappointed to find I'd gotten the model without the harness. It was probably my fault for not realizing the fact that the model numbers are one digit off. I'll probably have to modify them eventually for a webbing belt. They do appear to have crotch straps but no harness belt. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 PS Rog bought me breakfast and he is a big tipper.

Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

It's definitely nice to have something above deck level to get a MOB back on the boat. Me, I like the LifeSling, due to an incident coming back from the 1972 Ensenada Race. But again, I think I should defer to others who can make suggestions about where to mount lifting blocks, etc. Good luck on this. \Rog _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:45 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark From: Rog Jones <mailto:ro… [at] nvsailing.org> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> ps.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

Mark; Great topic! Recovery is the hardest part. When we were doing MOB drills with live volunteers last year, we found that the only thing we could really do with an unconcious mob was get down in the water with them to get a line around them. The d-rings on sospender-type harnesses or PFDs just don't work for an unconcious person; the mob is limp, their arms go up in the air when you start to lift and they slide out of the harness. It's also real hard to get to them when the vest is inflated; they're behind the balloons. Some folks advocate putting a carabiner on the d-rings so you have something you can get ahold of to clip on to. Might work. The best way we found to recover someone was with the lifesling. We put the sling on them backwards, with the rope behind them, and had them keep their arms down over the padded lifesling. We lifed with them facing away from the boat, sliding them up the hull until their butt was on the toerail, then man-handled them under the lifeline. If the mob was "Unconcious" (not helping us), we did the same thing but we had to put a crew in the water to do it, because we had to get the lifesling around them and then tie their arms down to keep them in the sling. We crossed their arms over their chest, on top of and over the sling, and tied a short line around them to keep their arms in place during the lift. Needless to say, the extra crew in the water is a worry; they need PFDs, lines tide to them, etc. But it's nearly impossible to hoist an unconcious person to deck level without someone going in to assist. I guess if your freeboard was low enough that you could reach down and tie a line or the sling around the person from deck level you could avoid this, but that's the minority of boats that have that low a freeboard. Also, mid-ships is where to do all of this, unless a) you have a sugar scoop stern and b) it's nearly dead calm. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

In the MOB trials, we tested with "handy-billies", just block and tackle gear with snap-hooks at each end, with (I think) 6:1 purchase. We put the handy-billy on a spare halyard and hoisted it up so the top block was about 6' above the deck. Then we lowered the handy-billy hook down to the MOB and did the lift using the 6:1 blocks. Still not easy with a 200 lb-er, soaking wet more like 300 lbs. And you have to get them really high to get onto the deck. I used to think the boom would work for this, but after trying it, most booms are just too low. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:27 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Lifting devices for MOBs (was PFDs with crotch straps) (Mark S) It's definitely nice to have something above deck level to get a MOB back on the boat. Me, I like the LifeSling, due to an incident coming back from the 1972 Ensenada Race. But again, I think I should defer to others who can make suggestions about where to mount lifting blocks, etc. Good luck on this. \Rog ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:45 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

Hi, Bob - Two things: First, please, can you again post the URL for the MOB work you did last summer? Second, in 1972, without any help, I had to get four guys over the stern and on board a Cal 2-30 which has a sloping rear end, but no scoop. The boat had a stainless steel swim ladder with wooden steps that dropped down out of the stern pulpit, leaving the pulpit open on most of the starboard half, but only from shear level down. These guys had been clinging to a broken and overturned trapeze of a catamaran - the beams between the amas had broken in half but the amas were still floating upside down - for about four hours in the dark in very cold water, with breaking seas continually knocking them back into the water. They couldn't offer a lot of help, but some. That is, they were weak from the cold, but not unconscious. It took about three hours since the rest of my crew and the skipper were down below vomiting or unconscious after too many Husong's Tavern agave concoctions. Being, for all practical purposes alone, and not having a clue what else to do, I simply got the main down (we were motorsailing from Ensenada to San Diego), put the boat in neutral and let the wind shove the boat down onto the broken cat each time. It was dark and noisy and I was very scared and running on adrenalin. With the main centered and locked down by the mainsheet, I used a snatch block through the boom bale that secured the top of the vang and ran the LifeSling line through it to a sheet winch. I kept tossing the LifeSling until each person got it and then got into it and dragged them aboard, facing the boat, up the ladder, through the opening in the stern pulpit. It was exhausting, even with the winch. As soon as I got the first guy aboard, by which time we'd drifted away from the catamaran, I engaged the prop again and got upwind and repeated the process. Possibly the most terrifying thing I've been through since my days in West Pac. Couldn't do it today, I think. I just don't have that much endurance or adrenalin. The point here is that it would be swell to have done stuff amidships, but when you are alone or short-handed, that may not be an option. The swim ladder was great because it gave the guys I was picking up something to hang onto as I winched them up a little at a time. Thanks for all you do for this list. And for the experience you bring to us. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _

The COB symposium's final report is at http://www.boatus.com/foundation/findings/COBfinalreport/. Wow rog, what a story. My hat's off to you. Nobody could have done more. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Lifting devices for MOBs (Bob W) Hi, Bob - Two things: First, please, can you again post the URL for the MOB work you did last summer? Second, in 1972, without any help, I had to get four guys over the stern and on board a Cal 2-30 which has a sloping rear end, but no scoop. The boat had a stainless steel swim ladder with wooden steps that dropped down out of the stern pulpit, leaving the pulpit open on most of the starboard half, but only from shear level down. These guys had been clinging to a broken and overturned trapeze of a catamaran - the beams between the amas had broken in half but the amas were still floating upside down - for about four hours in the dark in very cold water, with breaking seas continually knocking them back into the water. They couldn't offer a lot of help, but some. That is, they were weak from the cold, but not unconscious. It took about three hours since the rest of my crew and the skipper were down below vomiting or unconscious after too many Husong's Tavern agave concoctions. Being, for all practical purposes alone, and not having a clue what else to do, I simply got the main down (we were motorsailing from Ensenada to San Diego), put the boat in neutral and let the wind shove the boat down onto the broken cat each time. It was dark and noisy and I was very scared and running on adrenalin. With the main centered and locked down by the mainsheet, I used a snatch block through the boom bale that secured the top of the vang and ran the LifeSling line through it to a sheet winch. I kept tossing the LifeSling until each person got it and then got into it and dragged them aboard, facing the boat, up the ladder, through the opening in the stern pulpit. It was exhausting, even with the winch. As soon as I got the first guy aboard, by which time we'd drifted away from the catamaran, I engaged the prop again and got upwind and repeated the process. Possibly the most terrifying thing I've been through since my days in West Pac. Couldn't do it today, I think. I just don't have that much endurance or adrenalin. The point here is that it would be swell to have done stuff amidships, but when you are alone or short-handed, that may not be an option. The swim ladder was great because it gave the guys I was picking up something to hang onto as I winched them up a little at a time. Thanks for all you do for this list. And for the experience you bring to us. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _

Rog Jones wrote: > > Hi, Bob -- > > > > Two things: > > > > First, please, can you again post the URL for the MOB work you did > last summer? > > > > Second, in 1972, without any help, I had to get four guys over the > stern and on board a Cal 2-30 which has a sloping rear end, but no > scoop. The boat had a stainless steel swim ladder with wooden steps > that dropped down out of the stern pulpit, leaving the pulpit open on > most of the starboard half, but only from shear level down. These guys > had been clinging to a broken and overturned trapeze of a catamaran -- > the beams between the amas had broken in half but the amas were still > floating upside down -- for about four hours in the dark in very cold > water, with breaking seas continually knocking them back into the > water. They couldn't offer a lot of help, but some. That is, they were > weak from the cold, but not unconscious. It took about three hours > since the rest of my crew and the skipper were down below vomiting or > unconscious after too many Husong's Tavern agave concoctions. > Thanks to all you guys who have described your actual experiences with retrieval devices. I have printed a bunch of them to share with our local schooner organization. It's been a topic of discussion for some time. The big lesson is that things always work worse, and happen under more demanding circumstances, than you ever expect. We do MOB exercises on the schooner, but it's just the throw-the-pfd over, call-MOB, have-crew-point, retrieve-pfd kind of thing (on nice summer afternoons). The schooner, with its high freeboard (maybe 7' to top of bulwarks), presents a special challenge. The plan is to launch the inflatable and pull the MOB into that, but the next step, getting aboard from the inflatable, would present a challenge with a helpless victim or big seas or both. Chris Campbell

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > Hi, Bob - > > > > Two things: > > > > First, please, can you again post the URL for the MOB work you did last > summer? > > > > Second, in 1972, without any help, I had to get four guys over the stern and > on board a Cal 2-30 which has a sloping rear end, but no scoop. The boat had > a stainless steel swim ladder with wooden steps that dropped down out of the > stern pulpit, leaving the pulpit open on most of the starboard half, but > only from shear level down. These guys had been clinging to a broken and > overturned trapeze of a catamaran - This story makes me think of Willard Bell's rescue of the crew of a trimaran in the 1981 Transpac. They were in a raft and that may have helped. It would be interesting to have that story from his children who still have Westward. Willard is gone. I'm sure they were there as the family took the trimaran crew aboard and gave them the choice of being put off in the raft at daylight for the Coast Guard to pick up, or going to Honolulu with the Bell family. They chose the latter and Willard got a time allowance and a trophy for seamanship. I think they had 14 going to Hawaii. The Bell's had Westward at the Transpac dinner last February. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Rog mentioned, adding to the pfd, a heavy 2" sewn on crotch strap with its own d ring. I am picturing that the strap is sewn on from the back and wrapped around the crotch and the d ring connects with the harness d rings. Does the addition of this crotch strap d ring to harness solve the issue with the pfd sliding over the arms of the weighted mob? And if not, are there any solutions on the drawing board that enable a secure pick up and lift connection point on the pfd and without the need for a sling. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Walden To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Mark; Great topic! Recovery is the hardest part. When we were doing MOB drills with live volunteers last year, we found that the only thing we could really do with an unconcious mob was get down in the water with them to get a line around them. The d-rings on sospender-type harnesses or PFDs just don't work for an unconcious person; the mob is limp, their arms go up in the air when you start to lift and they slide out of the harness. It's also real hard to get to them when the vest is inflated; they're behind the balloons. Some folks advocate putting a carabiner on the d-rings so you have something you can get ahold of to clip on to. Might work. The best way we found to recover someone was with the lifesling. We put the sling on them backwards, with the rope behind them, and had them keep their arms down over the padded lifesling. We lifed with them facing away from the boat, sliding them up the hull until their butt was on the toerail, then man-handled them under the lifeline. If the mob was "Unconcious" (not helping us), we did the same thing but we had to put a crew in the water to do it, because we had to get the lifesling around them and then tie their arms down to keep them in the sling. We crossed their arms over their chest, on top of and over the sling, and tied a short line around them to keep their arms in place during the lift. Needless to say, the extra crew in the water is a worry; they need PFDs, lines tide to them, etc. But it's nearly impossible to hoist an unconcious person to deck level without someone going in to assist. I guess if your freeboard was low enough that you could reach down and tie a line or the sling around the person from deck level you could avoid this, but that's the minority of boats that have that low a freeboard. Also, mid-ships is where to do all of this, unless a) you have a sugar scoop stern and b) it's nearly dead calm. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

I dunno if the crotch strap would make a sospenders pfd a good hoising harness. Mainly, the crotch strap is to help you float higher in the water, and keep the pfd in its intended location on an unconcious person. I can't see that it would impair the lifting process. I'd still go with the lifesling if at all possible. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog mentioned, adding to the pfd, a heavy 2" sewn on crotch strap with its own d ring. I am picturing that the strap is sewn on from the back and wrapped around the crotch and the d ring connects with the harness d rings. Does the addition of this crotch strap d ring to harness solve the issue with the pfd sliding over the arms of the weighted mob? And if not, are there any solutions on the drawing board that enable a secure pick up and lift connection point on the pfd and without the need for a sling. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Walden To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Mark; Great topic! Recovery is the hardest part. When we were doing MOB drills with live volunteers last year, we found that the only thing we could really do with an unconcious mob was get down in the water with them to get a line around them. The d-rings on sospender-type harnesses or PFDs just don't work for an unconcious person; the mob is limp, their arms go up in the air when you start to lift and they slide out of the harness. It's also real hard to get to them when the vest is inflated; they're behind the balloons. Some folks advocate putting a carabiner on the d-rings so you have something you can get ahold of to clip on to. Might work. The best way we found to recover someone was with the lifesling. We put the sling on them backwards, with the rope behind them, and had them keep their arms down over the padded lifesling. We lifed with them facing away from the boat, sliding them up the hull until their butt was on the toerail, then man-handled them under the lifeline. If the mob was "Unconcious" (not helping us), we did the same thing but we had to put a crew in the water to do it, because we had to get the lifesling around them and then tie their arms down to keep them in the sling. We crossed their arms over their chest, on top of and over the sling, and tied a short line around them to keep their arms in place during the lift. Needless to say, the extra crew in the water is a worry; they need PFDs, lines tide to them, etc. But it's nearly impossible to hoist an unconcious person to deck level without someone going in to assist. I guess if your freeboard was low enough that you could reach down and tie a line or the sling around the person from deck level you could avoid this, but that's the minority of boats that have that low a freeboard. Also, mid-ships is where to do all of this, unless a) you have a sugar scoop stern and b) it's nearly dead calm. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark - Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we've used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2" - 3" wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that's overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bob Walden" <bob@...> wrote: > > I dunno if the crotch strap would make a sospenders pfd a good hoising harness. Mainly, the crotch strap is to help you float higher in the water, and keep the pfd in its intended location on an unconcious person. I can't see that it would impair the lifting process. > > I'd still go with the lifesling if at all possible. Did any of these workshops check out the MOM 8 and the MOM 9 ? The MOM 9 has an inflatable raft packed in that little cannister. It is a one person raft with a built-in sling. It's expensive but, for offshore use, the money would seem worthwhile given all the trouble getting MOB aboard. It has a tackle built in, as I read the literature. The MOM 8A has an inflatable horseshoe ring and a lighted MOB pole that inflates. I think there is also a beacon of some sort. They are quite a bit more than the Lifesling but maybe something to think about. Mike Kennedy Conquesst Cal 40 # 96

Mike, Sospenders made a unit like this.. essentially an inflatable one man raft with an inflatable rigging tower. We bought one for each boat. They are a great solution... except that when Sospenders was bought out, the item has completely fallen off the radar.. They were called the Life Saver Buoy See them at: http://tinyurl.com/yhpgk9 Timm From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 5:06 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> , "Bob Walden" <bob@...> wrote: > > I dunno if the crotch strap would make a sospenders pfd a good hoising harness. Mainly, the crotch strap is to help you float higher in the water, and keep the pfd in its intended location on an unconcious person. I can't see that it would impair the lifting process. > > I'd still go with the lifesling if at all possible. Did any of these workshops check out the MOM 8 and the MOM 9 ? The MOM 9 has an inflatable raft packed in that little cannister. It is a one person raft with a built-in sling. It's expensive but, for offshore use, the money would seem worthwhile given all the trouble getting MOB aboard. It has a tackle built in, as I read the literature. The MOM 8A has an inflatable horseshoe ring and a lighted MOB pole that inflates. I think there is also a beacon of some sort. They are quite a bit more than the Lifesling but maybe something to think about. Mike Kennedy Conquesst Cal 40 # 96

Yeah, in fact I was on the boat that tested the mom-9. It's a great unit and worked very well. We were deploying it in 25 knots in SF bay, with about 4 foot chop. The unit deployed and inflated perfectly 3 times (3 different days, with a trip to the repack shop each night). The unit didn't drift downwind too fast, we were concerned about that but the drogues worked. The diver was able to get in the raft without much trouble. We hoisted the raft but in this case you need to have a block and tackle with a very long full-out length. The lifting slings for the raft are quite long, and to get it up to at least deck level to roll the mob under the lifelines, the top block had to be at least 10 feet above deck. We couldn't use the handly-billy, had to winch the halyard directly--hard work. But yeah, if you can afford it, the mom-9 is good stuff. From: "mtkennedy1" <mt… [at] cox.net> To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 5:05 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bob Walden" <bob@...> wrote: >> >> I dunno if the crotch strap would make a sospenders pfd a good hoising >> harness. > Mainly, the crotch strap is to help you float higher in the water, and > keep the pfd in its > intended location on an unconcious person. I can't see that it would > impair the lifting > process. >> >> I'd still go with the lifesling if at all possible. > > Did any of these workshops check out the MOM 8 and the MOM 9 ? The MOM 9 > has an > inflatable raft packed in that little cannister. It is a one person raft > with a built-in sling. It's > expensive but, for offshore use, the money would seem worthwhile given all > the trouble > getting MOB aboard. It has a tackle built in, as I read the literature. > The MOM 8A has an > inflatable horseshoe ring and a lighted MOB pole that inflates. I think > there is also a > beacon of some sort. They are quite a bit more than the Lifesling but > maybe something to > think about. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquesst Cal 40 # 96 > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

Hi Rog and Bob, I have to say, the talk around the club this last weekend was about this same subject. I can't tell you how many people told me I may not of gotten back on the boat. It made me feel lucky the Sheriffs Dept got to me. The swimmer ditched my harness and pulled me up with a sinch strap of some sort. It was quick and I didn't notice it. He threaded it under my arms, around my back and next I was hooked to a carbiner. He clipped onto me and up we went. Thrish's family is making Christmas Tomales for the SAR dept this weekend. I will try to find out what they use next week. Maybe this will help! Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands Ca. Bob Walden <bo… [at] bobwalden.com> wrote: I dunno if the crotch strap would make a sospenders pfd a good hoising harness. Mainly, the crotch strap is to help you float higher in the water, and keep the pfd in its intended location on an unconcious person. I can't see that it would impair the lifting process. I'd still go with the lifesling if at all possible. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog mentioned, adding to the pfd, a heavy 2" sewn on crotch strap with its own d ring. I am picturing that the strap is sewn on from the back and wrapped around the crotch and the d ring connects with the harness d rings. Does the addition of this crotch strap d ring to harness solve the issue with the pfd sliding over the arms of the weighted mob? And if not, are there any solutions on the drawing board that enable a secure pick up and lift connection point on the pfd and without the need for a sling. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Walden To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Mark; Great topic! Recovery is the hardest part. When we were doing MOB drills with live volunteers last year, we found that the only thing we could really do with an unconcious mob was get down in the water with them to get a line around them. The d-rings on sospender-type harnesses or PFDs just don't work for an unconcious person; the mob is limp, their arms go up in the air when you start to lift and they slide out of the harness. It's also real hard to get to them when the vest is inflated; they're behind the balloons. Some folks advocate putting a carabiner on the d-rings so you have something you can get ahold of to clip on to. Might work. The best way we found to recover someone was with the lifesling. We put the sling on them backwards, with the rope behind them, and had them keep their arms down over the padded lifesling. We lifed with them facing away from the boat, sliding them up the hull until their butt was on the toerail, then man-handled them under the lifeline. If the mob was "Unconcious" (not helping us), we did the same thing but we had to put a crew in the water to do it, because we had to get the lifesling around them and then tie their arms down to keep them in the sling. We crossed their arms over their chest, on top of and over the sling, and tied a short line around them to keep their arms in place during the lift. Needless to say, the extra crew in the water is a worry; they need PFDs, lines tide to them, etc. But it's nearly impossible to hoist an unconcious person to deck level without someone going in to assist. I guess if your freeboard was low enough that you could reach down and tie a line or the sling around the person from deck level you could avoid this, but that's the minority of boats that have that low a freeboard. Also, mid-ships is where to do all of this, unless a) you have a sugar scoop stern and b) it's nearly dead calm. bw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Rog, Thanks that's exactly what I wanted to know. Additionally, since this mob came up, I am in the process of rigging a block and tackle 6:1 harkens lift. I was wondering how the tang for the topping lift would work for the lift attachment or from where the backstay splits or abandon the block and tackle for the elevator method....line around the forward cleat back to a winch. The elevator doesn't seem to address the incapacitated though. I do want to be prepared for the worst! and prey to god I don't have to. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rog Jones To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) Hi, Mark – Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past few days and too busy for emails. We tested the Stearns “universal crotch strap” accessory by lifting a 200 pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and we’ve used them on our boats for some time. I suggest that you simply have a 2” - 3” wide, nylon webbing strap with a stainless steel D ring on the loose end professionally sewn into the back of the harness on your 4000 Series PFD. Ours are length-adjustable, but I think that’s overkill as you will see if you first have the strap sewn in and then measure for where you want the D ring. Unless the wearer is incredibly small or incredibly large, no length adjustment is needed. I think the total cost for the materials and the professional sewing ran us something like $12 per PFD. Hope this helps. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

Wow! Mike - 20% is not big tipping where I grew up. But St. Lori and I agree that the service and the excellent brunch were almost as good as the company! Worth every penny! As always, it was really nice to get to spend time with you, my friend. As for the PFDs, why don't you just send them back and get the right ones? Or go down to W-M and get their 4000 series. To me they seem every biot as good. All the best. \Rog Cal 29+ #1 Swiss Navy Cal 2-30 #77 St. Lori's Comet _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:31 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: PFDs with crotch straps (Mark S) (was MOB discussion) --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Rog Jones" <rog@...> wrote: > > Hi, Mark - > > > > Sorry for the delayed reply. Been in SoCal (actually, San Pedro!) these past > few days and too busy for emails. > > > > We tested the Stearns "universal crotch strap" accessory by lifting a 200 > pound adult with a dock hoist to see how it worked. It began to tear at the > seams and was incredibly uncomfortable because the webbing is son narrow. > The 4000 Series is a really high-quality workhorse of a PFD/harness and > we've used them on our boats for some time. We finally got the Mustang PFDs from Sailnet and I was disappointed to find I'd gotten the model without the harness. It was probably my fault for not realizing the fact that the model numbers are one digit off. I'll probably have to modify them eventually for a webbing belt. They do appear to have crotch straps but no harness belt. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 PS Rog bought me breakfast and he is a big tipper.

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > > The swimmer ditched my harness and pulled me up with a sinch strap of some sort. It was quick and I didn't notice it. He threaded it under my arms, around my back and next I was hooked to a carbiner. He clipped onto me and up we went. > > We'll save a discussion of the bravery and courage of these guys for another day, but it's worth noting the value of training. They train over and over and when the time comes to use the skills, they can do it just right. I used to think about My Tax Dollars at Work every time I saw the Coast Guard helicopter out playing on the Bay in front of my office, but then I read about the great value of repetitive training, and how doing the thing over and over leaves you not needing to think or remember when your skills are needed. Now when I hear the helicopter's whine, I think about preparedness and competence. Chris Campbell