Prepurchase engine inspection

This is a question directed to Joe DeMers, but I'll open it to the Cal List as well. I'm looking at buying a boat, and it has a Westerbeke W21 diesel. I have no experience with diesels, so I don't know what to look for or how to find it in assessing the engine. My question is this: what should I have done in the way of having a mechanic check it over? I'm scheduling a sea trial for next week. The broker suggests that all he'd do is "a full service to the motor including all fluids, belt, impeller, zincs and transmission fluid." He doesn't even recommend a compression check because "it is evident when you turn the key whether the motor starts quickly and thereby has sufficient compression. By running the motor at WOT for 30 seconds and going to idle will show whether the heat exchanger is plugged up by seeing the temperature rise sharply. The exhaust smoke reveals many pieces to the puzzle as well." I have no prior experience with this broker, but he apparently has extensive delivery experience and most of his advice to this point has rung true. But I hesitate to take his word for this without some independent confirmation. (I got my own surveyor to do a prepurchase inspection, and he found a couple of serious items that needed to be corrected; the broker initially tried to make light of them, so I'm just a little hesitant to take his advice without corroboration.) So what is reasonable in the way of testing? The engine reportedly had new injectors installed within the past year or two. The surveyor had questions about the state of the cutlass bearing, so I want to be sure to put the system under load in the water, but that's about as far as I am at this point. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. (The boat's in Annapolis, so if you can recommend someone in that vicinity, that would be welcome, too.) Alfred Poor 1969 Cal 29 #132, "Pentaquod"

From: Alfred Poor To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com ; JE… [at] Mindspring.com Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Prepurchase engine inspection This is a question directed to Joe DeMers, but I'll open it to the Cal List as well. I'm looking at buying a boat, and it has a Westerbeke W21 diesel. ***** This engine is actually a Mitsubishi diesel, marinized by Westerbeke. This model was discontinued by Mitsubishi several years ago, and many parts are no longer available. It was in the Westerbeke line for about 5 years, as I recall. I have no experience with diesels, so I don't know what to look for or how to find it in assessing the engine. **** I would consider any boat with this engine to be a liability, for the above reasons, and priced accordingly. My question is this: what should I have done in the way of having a mechanic check it over? I'm scheduling a sea trial for next week. The broker suggests that all he'd do is "a full service to the motor including all fluids, belt, impeller, zincs and transmission fluid." He doesn't even recommend a compression check because "it is evident when you turn the key whether the motor starts quickly and thereby has sufficient compression. By running the motor at WOT for 30 seconds and going to idle will show whether the heat exchanger is plugged up by seeing the temperature rise sharply. The exhaust smoke reveals many pieces to the puzzle as well." **** That's why he is a broker, and not a mechanic. Remember, his job is to sell the boat ASAP. You need a mechanic that works for YOU, to protect your financial interest. I have no prior experience with this broker, but he apparently has extensive delivery experience and most of his advice to this point has rung true. But I hesitate to take his word for this without some independent confirmation. (I got my own surveyor to do a prepurchase inspection, and he found a couple of serious items that needed to be corrected; the broker initially tried to make light of them, so I'm just a little hesitant to take his advice without corroboration.) ***** This is typical broker behaviour. So what is reasonable in the way of testing? ****** First do a visual inspection of the engine and drive train. This tells volumes about the engine and how well it was maintained. You may discover that proceding further is not required, due to the poor condition. If the visual inspection is OK, start the engine and run it under load, observing for leaks, strange smoke, vibration, blowby, etc. then perform a compression test. The latter is VERY useful to determine the remining service life of the engine. Then take the boat for a sea trial, [ assuming compression is OK ] and perform dynamic tests underway. ***** There is a more detailed inspection outline in my website. www.soundmarinediesel.com The engine reportedly had new injectors installed within the past year or two. ***** Unless there is a parts receipt, I would not take the seller's word for ANY work done to the engine. The surveyor had questions about the state of the cutlass bearing, so I want to be sure to put the system under load in the water, but that's about as far as I am at this point. ***** If the boat is now hauled, it is very easy to check the cutless, just try moving the shaft vetically, then horizontally with your hand. Any "clunking" noise means replacement of the bearing and / or the shaft is needed. Joe DeMers Sound Marine Diesel LLC Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. (The boat's in Annapolis, so if you can recommend someone in that vicinity, that would be welcome, too.) Alfred Poor 1969 Cal 29 #132, "Pentaquod" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.3.0/758 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 11:52 AM

Hello All, Sorry for the re-post, my computer crashed and the replies are lost. I just want to revisit some of the comments I can recall. JoeD, any word from your prop shop? I have to assume the 3gm30f is rated per information on line, 27 hp at 3600 rpm. This does not agree with my owners manual that rates the engine at 24 hp. Could this be the "operating rating" (hp at 80% of max rpm rating)? Other information I have received leads me to believe the 16x14 is pitched too high. But this also "assumes" that at WOT I cannot reach Max rpm. Quite frankly I have never tried, or tested to see if I actually can rev the engine to this rpm. I have not tested the accuracy of the tach either. It makes sense when discussing this, but afterward I always tend to confuse myself. Why would you size the prop to reach hull speed only at Max RPM? Would it be better to have the prop sized for max hull speed at "normal" operating speed (2880 rpm) and at a lesser hp rating? Unless someone has a good argument against this, I will be looking for a new or used 16x12 three blade prop. I could go as low as 10 or as high as 13 pitch, but the 12 seems to be a good compromise. My justification? -Three blade prop will give more maneuverability around the dock. - we do not race so the drag created by the three blade is inconsequential - under ideal conditions 10-15 knots, the drag would only tenths of a knot in speed difference - in light winds (the boat gets under three knots speed) we usually start the engine a become a motor boat - in heavy winds (20 knots plus) we are usually motoring anyway due to the direction is toward windward (or on the nose) So, does anyone have a used 3 blade 16x12 prop they are using as a paperweight? Anyone have a good discount house (shop or Internet) for new or used props? Thanks for your input! All comments are highly respected, and will be taken into consideration for my final purchase. John Cal 33 Oriental NC

Alfred, Joe is right - please locate a qualified marine diesel mechanic and have the engine gone over. I bought a 2-34 with a W30 w/o doing when she sea trialed well, motor seemed OK and I was trying to wrap the deal up long distance. Not having the engine surveyed was a mistake. Even simple items - like low alternator output, or a tired starter quickly run into a Boat Buck +. Esp if you have to pay someone to do it or the part is rare. Torrensen Marine (not the cheapest place to get parts BTW but might be the only one you can find) shows the alt for the W21 at $692.34. That will more than cover the engine inspection. But an alt is easy to have a local rebuilder do for $150 or so. Fabing a manifold is not. I now know far more about my W30 than I wished - see the 3 PDF's - one of which is model history. Fortunately others went there before me on parts and repair, and put info on the web. And $300 bought me a parts donor W30 on Craigslist, but there are several variations of the W30 so not all parts are interchangable. Still the air silencer is $344 and my parts donor has one. Let alone the heat exchanger. Good Luck - Kirk Cal 2-34 Footloose Ventura, CA Joe DeMers wrote: > > > *From:* Alfred Poor <mailto:ap… [at] bellatlantic.net> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> ; > JE… [at] Mindspring.com <mailto:JE… [at] Mindspring.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:22 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Prepurchase engine inspection > > This is a question directed to Joe DeMers, but I’ll open it to the > Cal List as well. > > > > I’m looking at buying a boat, and it has a Westerbeke W21 diesel. > > > > ***** This engine is actually a Mitsubishi diesel, marinized by > Westerbeke. > > This model was discontinued by Mitsubishi several years ago, and > many parts are no longer available. It was in the Westerbeke line > for about 5 years, as I recall. > > > > I have no experience with diesels, so I don’t know what to look for > or how to find it in assessing the engine. > > > > **** I would consider any boat with this engine to be a liability, > for the above reasons, and priced accordingly. > > > > My question is this: what should I have done in the way of having a > mechanic check it over? I’m scheduling a sea trial for next week. > The broker suggests that all he’d do is “a full service to the motor > including all fluids, belt, impeller, zincs and transmission fluid.” > He doesn’t even recommend a compression check because “it is evident > when you turn the key whether the motor starts quickly and thereby > has sufficient compression. By running the motor at WOT for 30 > seconds and going to idle will show whether the heat exchanger is > plugged up by seeing the temperature rise sharply. The exhaust smoke > reveals many pieces to the puzzle as well.” > > > > **** That's why he is a broker, and not a mechanic. Remember, his > job is to sell the boat ASAP. You need a mechanic that works for > YOU, to protect your financial interest. > > > > I have no prior experience with this broker, but he apparently has > extensive delivery experience and most of his advice to this point > has rung true. But I hesitate to take his word for this without some > independent confirmation. (I got my own surveyor to do a prepurchase > inspection, and he found a couple of serious items that needed to be > corrected; the broker initially tried to make light of them, so I’m > just a little hesitant to take his advice without corroboration.) > > > > ***** This is typical broker behaviour. > > > > So what is reasonable in the way of testing? > > > > ****** First do a visual inspection of the engine and drive train. > This tells volumes about the engine and how well it was maintained. > You may discover that proceding further is not required, due to the > poor condition. If the visual inspection is OK, start the engine > and run it under load, observing for leaks, strange smoke, > vibration, blowby, etc. then perform a compression test. The latter > is VERY useful to determine the remining service life of the engine. > Then take the boat for a sea trial, [ assuming compression is OK ] > and perform dynamic tests underway. > > > > ***** There is a more detailed inspection outline in my website. > www.soundmarinediesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > > > The engine reportedly had new injectors installed within the past > year or two. > > > > ***** Unless there is a parts receipt, I would not take the seller's > word for ANY work done to the engine. > > > > The surveyor had questions about the state of the cutlass bearing, > so I want to be sure to put the system under load in the water, but > that’s about as far as I am at this point. > > > > ***** If the boat is now hauled, it is very easy to check the > cutless, just try moving the shaft vetically, then horizontally with > your hand. Any "clunking" noise means replacement of the bearing and > / or the shaft is needed. > > > > Joe DeMers > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. (The boat’s in > Annapolis, so if you can recommend someone in that vicinity, that > would be welcome, too.) > > > > Alfred Poor > > 1969 Cal 29 #132, “Pentaquod” > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

Why not just log-in to yahoogroups and look at the archives? john rr wrote: > Hello All, > > > > Sorry for the re-post, my computer crashed and the replies are lost. > I just want to revisit some of the comments I can recall. >

Joe DeMers wrote > From: Alfred Poor > > This is a question directed to Joe DeMers, but I'll open it to the Cal List > as well. > > I'm looking at buying a boat, and it has a Westerbeke W21 diesel. > [snip] > > **** I would consider any boat with this engine to be a liability, for the > above reasons, and priced accordingly. OUCH. I guess my boat is a liability :-) I wouldn't argue with Joe, and any engine that is discontinued with a parts shortage is a problem. By I love my W21-A, it is the smoothest deisel I've sailed on. td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************************************************* This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.