"Rudder Feed-Back" the picture's

bright blessings all you Tiller Types....... fiver has returned; and this time, brought "Picture's"........ Ok, and a Drawing too. what you will be looking at is a basic "side-on" or profile view of the cock-pit well of an "Original" Cal-28 flush-deck. in this case, a boat built in the early 60's (BB-54). where Her over-all cock-pit is large at about 10' x 8.5'..... and with a foot well that runs about 16" deep and 3' at it's widest, by about 5.5' long. one note here; as i am an engineer, you just got too know that with that much real-estate aft of the cabin; fiver is going too change the structure of things. that being said, the drawing is only an example of how the "gear-set" i have would fit in the cock-pit as it now exits. all the parts i have use in the drawing are either off the shelf, or now in my hands. either way, they are common parts; not hard to find. also, just as the steering gear is custom; so will the wheel stand be custom. it may even take the shape of post that can lean too one side or the other and offer the helmsman a "windward" position from which too navigate. now obviously, no good tiller-man is ever going to go for this system. but i am not trying too sell you one. neither am i trying too sell one too anyone else for that matter. what i am doing is simply trying bring the "State of the Art" to a new Standard. one that any mechanically inclined boat-owner with a work-shop and some time can achieve for their selves. fiver..... PS. the drawing specks for it's self. the green gear-box is the main reduction box. and the small 3-way aluminum box is my 1-1 Euclid for the top where the wheel is...... ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Hello Fiver, Excellent pics, and the sketch is good depiction of the plan. Now that I see what you have in mind, I will offer comments, as I am also an engineer. There will be significant side loading on the bottom bearing fo the 24:1 reduction gear. It will essentially be acting as the top rudder bearing. It does not appear to be designed for this type of load. I also have to wonder if it is marine rated. It will need to be robustly mounted to something very solid, in any case. It is also unclear how the shaft from the Euclid will be joined to the reduction gearbox. It appears that they do not line up. Will a universal joint be used? Will it be marine rated? Will that be how this pedestal is to swing from port to starboard so that the helmsman can more easily steer from the windward position? Keep in mind that the greater the angle between two shafts joined by a universal, the more friction will be imposed there, as well. If the pedestal is to be moving part, how will it be sealed at the cockpit floor? The sea would love to enter a hull at any opportunity. My gut tells me that by the time the force gets from the rudder through all these shafts and gears, to the hand of the ships master, any pretense of the feel, of the boat sailing through the water, will be lost. (Use a tiller to avoid this predicament) Another thing to consider: Nearly all wheel steered boats have a provision for an emergency tiller, should the steering gear fail. Will there be such a provision and how will it be instituted? I can see no easy way. It should also be noted that while most wheel steered boats carry an emergency tiller, no tiller steered boats carry an emergency wheel, pedestal or quadrant. There is a message here. I would like to casually suggest that the best course of action be put the boat into service with a tiller and sail it for a while to determine if an upgrade is truely warranted. IMHO, and experience, boats under 30-35 feet are better off with a tiller. The loading is not great enough to require a complex steering arrangement. A tiller satisfies the KISS priciple and puts a smile on the sailor. ~smile~ SMon fi… [at] aol.com wrote: bright blessings all you Tiller Types....... fiver has returned; and this time, brought "Picture's"........ Ok, and a Drawing too. what you will be looking at is a basic "side-on" or profile view of the cock-pit well of an "Original" Cal-28 flush-deck. in this case, a boat built in the early 60's (BB-54). where Her over-all cock-pit is large at about 10' x 8.5'..... and with a foot well that runs about 16" deep and 3' at it's widest, by about 5.5' long. one note here; as i am an engineer, you just got too know that with that much real-estate aft of the cabin; fiver is going too change the structure of things. that being said, the drawing is only an example of how the "gear-set" i have would fit in the cock-pit as it now exits. all the parts i have use in the drawing are either off the shelf, or now in my hands. either way, they are common parts; not hard to find. also, just as the steering gear is custom; so will the wheel stand be custom. it may even take the shape of post that can lean too one side or the other and offer the helmsman a "windward" position from which too navigate. now obviously, no good tiller-man is ever going to go for this system. but i am not trying too sell you one. neither am i trying too sell one too anyone else for that matter. what i am doing is simply trying bring the "State of the Art" to a new Standard. one that any mechanically inclined boat-owner with a work-shop and some time can achieve for their selves. fiver..... PS. the drawing specks for it's self. the green gear-box is the main reduction box. and the small 3-way aluminum box is my 1-1 Euclid for the top where the wheel is...... --------------------------------- See what's free at AOL.com. --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

hello, Steve; there are many things that simple drawing left out by necessity. i find few people can see through the more complex drawings that include more than one up-grade or engineering principles at a time. as a kid i didn't understand that and made very complex drawings that no one could pick their way through. i have sense learned. i have spent too much time in sailboats that i have built myself too want to sit side-on too a tiller any longer. i know that it is only my own opinion, and that it is greatly affected by the sort of sailing that i have done over the decades. but sheet-handler's sit side-ways and brace with their feet. and the helm faces forward and keeps mostly to windward with his or her head above the crew. it is with that in mind, that i will cut the hell out of BB- 54's cock-pit and re-move the out-board well that is now aft of the rudder post (not shown in drawing). and make that area all deck for the helm, adding huge suppers to both sides and a cambered deck. then enlarge and lower the bridge-deck forward. and change egress to the cabin so that it becomes a more water-tight but easer opening arrangement. all of this being said; we come to the actual "gear". it is not as i had said before, a planetary drive. it is rather a very hardy "Shimpo Circulute" 29-1 gear drive. it is built to stand very large over-hanging loads. in point of fact; it's not a conventional "gear-drive" at all. it is more what one mite call a cross between a "wankel" and a "eccentric" working togther with these big steel pins all packed in a steel box so tightly that there is no room in there for the oil. it is an absolutly no-slip high-torque low-loss drive. honestly, i have never seen such a small package able to handle the HP and torque this thing can, Steve. and if you will note in the picture; the end with the chain-sprocket. from there to where you see the first bolt-ring on the steel casting. that is a double set of timpkin tapered rollers. i think those will do exceedingly well for upper rudder bearings, don't you. as to a-fixing this monster of a gear-box to the boat. of course! having come from a US Navy sub re-pare yard; that is no problem. and i like bronze over any plastic as long as said bronze can be oiled through a "Zerp" fitting on the side of the bearing. something most boaters forget. also, having just come in from measuring the rudder-shaft. it's seems i was a bit over zealest about it's size. it comes in at only 1.75"d..... and as the out-put shaft of the reducer is 1.125"d. i may be able to find a ridged shaft coupling that could be fitted with a split-sleeve & rectangular key to do the job. then both could be "pined" as well for end-loading. which of course, the timken bearings will handle quit well. now as to the upper small 5/8" steering shafting; you are quit right, there is about a 8 degree aft-sweep too the rudder shaft. one that "hydrodynamiclly", i am inclined at this point to copy when i move the rudder post 16" aft for better leverage as was done in the Cal-40 (the second boat of this sort). but where it comes to the type of "flex-joint" to use; i like synthetic continues element joints rather than "U" type joint's. i get smother, no maintenance, no noise and no variable-geometry through the joint. this without a "constant-velocity" style of "U" joint. and as to the "Euclid" "T" style 1.1 gear-box on top; well, the name speaks for it's self. but just in case, there will be a second "Euclid" bolted to the side of the first. along with spare's for those joint's that may by chance brake. emergency steering....... have you ever heard the famous story of The "Thermopile" by chance.... in the case that you have not, let me just say that fiver is no stranger to equipment failure. at sea or in a place with no tools or parts. in fact, i am the one person that you would want around in such a case...... however, not wanting to make things hard for myself. it is very easy to simply put a "keyed-offset" on the rudder-shaft below the main reducer. said "offset" would have a square hole in it accessible from a water-tight inspection hatch in the deck of the cock-pit. there could/would be some explosive bolts..... no wait a minute. that was another movie.... where was i.... oh yes, there would be a nice ugly-looking bar that never gets used and lays in the bilge and rusts all-to-hell.... that in an emergency, one could steer the boat with. in the sense of "marine rating"...... LMAO....... in all my work on the boats, i never saw a "marine-rated" piece of gear come on-board. even the PFD's didn't say USCG on them..... my point here is that an expert/engineer who counts their time on the water in decades, not years; is expected too know what is usable in an ocean enviroment. and of course, what is not. i can tell you most of what goes on small-boats today is in no way suitable for at-sea use. hell, most-all small boats are absolutely not suitable for use at sea, as sold today. and you can take that to Fort-Knox. so, if fiver builds it for sea. you can bet she's built for sea! that why it says; built like a battleship, sails like a sub. do you know what the fudge-factor is on a US submarine? it's exactly double of what ever it was built to take. and then in every case i know about, they added some to that. when i got to the yard and saw that it warmed my heart because that is how i always built my stuff, Steve...... fiver.... ************************** --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, steve honour <stevehonoursail@...> wrote: > > Hello Fiver, > > Excellent pics, and the sketch is good depiction of the plan. > > Now that I see what you have in mind, I will offer comments, as I am also an engineer. > > There will be significant side loading on the bottom bearing fo the 24:1 reduction gear. It will essentially be acting as the top rudder bearing. It does not appear to be designed for this type of load. I also have to wonder if it is marine rated. It will need to be robustly mounted to something very solid, in any case. > > It is also unclear how the shaft from the Euclid will be joined to the reduction gearbox. It appears that they do not line up. Will a universal joint be used? Will it be marine rated? > > Will that be how this pedestal is to swing from port to starboard so that the helmsman can more easily steer from the windward position? Keep in mind that the greater the angle between two shafts joined by a universal, the more friction will be imposed there, as well. If the pedestal is to be moving part, how will it be sealed at the cockpit floor? The sea would love to enter a hull at any opportunity. > > My gut tells me that by the time the force gets from the rudder through all these shafts and gears, to the hand of the ships master, any pretense of the feel, of the boat sailing through the water, will be lost. (Use a tiller to avoid this predicament) > > Another thing to consider: Nearly all wheel steered boats have a provision for an emergency tiller, should the steering gear fail. Will there be such a provision and how will it be instituted? I can see no easy way. > > It should also be noted that while most wheel steered boats carry an emergency tiller, no tiller steered boats carry an emergency wheel, pedestal or quadrant. There is a message here. > > I would like to casually suggest that the best course of action be put the boat into service with a tiller and sail it for a while to determine if an upgrade is truely warranted. IMHO, and experience, boats under 30-35 feet are better off with a tiller. The loading is not great enough to require a complex steering arrangement. A tiller satisfies the KISS priciple and puts a smile on the sailor. > > ~smile~ > > SMon > > fiverhrairoo@... wrote: > bright blessings all you Tiller Types....... > > fiver has returned; > and this time, brought "Picture's"........ > > Ok, and a Drawing too. what you will be looking at is a basic "side-on" or profile view of the cock-pit well of an "Original" Cal-28 flush-deck. in this case, a boat built in the early 60's (BB- 54). where Her over-all cock-pit is large at about 10' x 8.5'..... and with a foot well that runs about 16" deep and 3' at it's widest, by about 5.5' long. > > one note here; > as i am an engineer, you just got too know that with that much real-estate aft of the cabin; fiver is going too change the structure of things. that being said, the drawing is only an example of how the "gear-set" i have would fit in the cock-pit as it now exits. > all the parts i have use in the drawing are either off the shelf, or now in my hands. either way, they are common parts; not hard to find. > also, just as the steering gear is custom; so will the wheel stand be custom. it may even take the shape of post that can lean too one side or the other and offer the helmsman a "windward" position from which too navigate. > now obviously, no good tiller-man is ever going to go for this system. but i am not trying too sell you one. neither am i trying too sell one too anyone else for that matter. what i am doing is simply trying bring the "State of the Art" to a new Standard. one that any mechanically inclined boat-owner with a work-shop and some time can achieve for their selves. > > fiver..... > > PS. the drawing specks for it's self. the green gear-box is the > main reduction box. and the small 3-way aluminum box is > my 1-1 Euclid for the top where the wheel is...... > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > See what's free at AOL.com. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. >

Dear Cal Buddies -- ran into this deal on crags list. http://tinyurl.com/yspu6x Check it out if it will fit for you. David

Dear Cal Buddies -- ran into this deal on crags list. http://tinyurl.com/yspu6x Check it out if it will fit for you. David

Hello again Fiver, Thanks for the details. Sounds like a lot of work, with great enthusiasm and quite well thought out, so I'll offer no more contrary points. Best of luck with it. Hope you get sailing soon, or at least before the summer is over. Do let us know how it worked out? I have a feeling it will be well worth it. ~smile~ SMon, 'Shady Lady', sweet sailing, tiller steered, race winning, 1970 blue stripe Cal 34 #319. slickbutfoxbuger <fi… [at] aol.com> wrote: hello, Steve; there are many things that simple drawing left out by necessity. i find few people can see through the more complex drawings that include more than one up-grade or engineering principles at a time. as a kid i didn't understand that and made very complex drawings that no one could pick their way through. i have sense learned. i have spent too much time in sailboats that i have built myself too want to sit side-on too a tiller any longer. i know that it is only my own opinion, and that it is greatly affected by the sort of sailing that i have done over the decades. but sheet-handler's sit side-ways and brace with their feet. and the helm faces forward and keeps mostly to windward with his or her head above the crew. it is with that in mind, that i will cut the hell out of BB- 54's cock-pit and re-move the out-board well that is now aft of the rudder post (not shown in drawing). and make that area all deck for the helm, adding huge suppers to both sides and a cambered deck. then enlarge and lower the bridge-deck forward. and change egress to the cabin so that it becomes a more water-tight but easer opening arrangement. all of this being said; we come to the actual "gear". it is not as i had said before, a planetary drive. it is rather a very hardy "Shimpo Circulute" 29-1 gear drive. it is built to stand very large over-hanging loads. in point of fact; it's not a conventional "gear-drive" at all. it is more what one mite call a cross between a "wankel" and a "eccentric" working togther with these big steel pins all packed in a steel box so tightly that there is no room in there for the oil. it is an absolutly no-slip high-torque low-loss drive. honestly, i have never seen such a small package able to handle the HP and torque this thing can, Steve. and if you will note in the picture; the end with the chain-sprocket. from there to where you see the first bolt-ring on the steel casting. that is a double set of timpkin tapered rollers. i think those will do exceedingly well for upper rudder bearings, don't you. as to a-fixing this monster of a gear-box to the boat. of course! having come from a US Navy sub re-pare yard; that is no problem. and i like bronze over any plastic as long as said bronze can be oiled through a "Zerp" fitting on the side of the bearing. something most boaters forget. also, having just come in from measuring the rudder-shaft. it's seems i was a bit over zealest about it's size. it comes in at only 1.75"d..... and as the out-put shaft of the reducer is 1.125"d. i may be able to find a ridged shaft coupling that could be fitted with a split-sleeve & rectangular key to do the job. then both could be "pined" as well for end-loading. which of course, the timken bearings will handle quit well. now as to the upper small 5/8" steering shafting; you are quit right, there is about a 8 degree aft-sweep too the rudder shaft. one that "hydrodynamiclly", i am inclined at this point to copy when i move the rudder post 16" aft for better leverage as was done in the Cal-40 (the second boat of this sort). but where it comes to the type of "flex-joint" to use; i like synthetic continues element joints rather than "U" type joint's. i get smother, no maintenance, no noise and no variable-geometry through the joint. this without a "constant-velocity" style of "U" joint. and as to the "Euclid" "T" style 1.1 gear-box on top; well, the name speaks for it's self. but just in case, there will be a second "Euclid" bolted to the side of the first. along with spare's for those joint's that may by chance brake. emergency steering....... have you ever heard the famous story of The "Thermopile" by chance.... in the case that you have not, let me just say that fiver is no stranger to equipment failure. at sea or in a place with no tools or parts. in fact, i am the one person that you would want around in such a case...... however, not wanting to make things hard for myself. it is very easy to simply put a "keyed-offset" on the rudder-shaft below the main reducer. said "offset" would have a square hole in it accessible from a water-tight inspection hatch in the deck of the cock-pit. there could/would be some explosive bolts..... no wait a minute. that was another movie.... where was i.... oh yes, there would be a nice ugly-looking bar that never gets used and lays in the bilge and rusts all-to-hell.... that in an emergency, one could steer the boat with. in the sense of "marine rating"...... LMAO....... in all my work on the boats, i never saw a "marine-rated" piece of gear come on-board. even the PFD's didn't say USCG on them..... my point here is that an expert/engineer who counts their time on the water in decades, not years; is expected too know what is usable in an ocean enviroment. and of course, what is not. i can tell you most of what goes on small-boats today is in no way suitable for at-sea use. hell, most-all small boats are absolutely not suitable for use at sea, as sold today. and you can take that to Fort-Knox. so, if fiver builds it for sea. you can bet she's built for sea! that why it says; built like a battleship, sails like a sub. do you know what the fudge-factor is on a US submarine? it's exactly double of what ever it was built to take. and then in every case i know about, they added some to that. when i got to the yard and saw that it warmed my heart because that is how i always built my stuff, Steve...... fiver.... ************************** --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, steve honour <stevehonoursail@...> wrote: > > Hello Fiver, > > Excellent pics, and the sketch is good depiction of the plan. > > Now that I see what you have in mind, I will offer comments, as I am also an engineer. > > There will be significant side loading on the bottom bearing fo the 24:1 reduction gear. It will essentially be acting as the top rudder bearing. It does not appear to be designed for this type of load. I also have to wonder if it is marine rated. It will need to be robustly mounted to something very solid, in any case. > > It is also unclear how the shaft from the Euclid will be joined to the reduction gearbox. It appears that they do not line up. Will a universal joint be used? Will it be marine rated? > > Will that be how this pedestal is to swing from port to starboard so that the helmsman can more easily steer from the windward position? Keep in mind that the greater the angle between two shafts joined by a universal, the more friction will be imposed there, as well. If the pedestal is to be moving part, how will it be sealed at the cockpit floor? The sea would love to enter a hull at any opportunity. > > My gut tells me that by the time the force gets from the rudder through all these shafts and gears, to the hand of the ships master, any pretense of the feel, of the boat sailing through the water, will be lost. (Use a tiller to avoid this predicament) > > Another thing to consider: Nearly all wheel steered boats have a provision for an emergency tiller, should the steering gear fail. Will there be such a provision and how will it be instituted? I can see no easy way. > > It should also be noted that while most wheel steered boats carry an emergency tiller, no tiller steered boats carry an emergency wheel, pedestal or quadrant. There is a message here. > > I would like to casually suggest that the best course of action be put the boat into service with a tiller and sail it for a while to determine if an upgrade is truely warranted. IMHO, and experience, boats under 30-35 feet are better off with a tiller. The loading is not great enough to require a complex steering arrangement. A tiller satisfies the KISS priciple and puts a smile on the sailor. > > ~smile~ > > SMon > > fiverhrairoo@... wrote: > bright blessings all you Tiller Types....... > > fiver has returned; > and this time, brought "Picture's"........ > > Ok, and a Drawing too. what you will be looking at is a basic "side-on" or profile view of the cock-pit well of an "Original" Cal-28 flush-deck. in this case, a boat built in the early 60's (BB- 54). where Her over-all cock-pit is large at about 10' x 8.5'..... and with a foot well that runs about 16" deep and 3' at it's widest, by about 5.5' long. > > one note here; > as i am an engineer, you just got too know that with that much real-estate aft of the cabin; fiver is going too change the structure of things. that being said, the drawing is only an example of how the "gear-set" i have would fit in the cock-pit as it now exits. > all the parts i have use in the drawing are either off the shelf, or now in my hands. either way, they are common parts; not hard to find. > also, just as the steering gear is custom; so will the wheel stand be custom. it may even take the shape of post that can lean too one side or the other and offer the helmsman a "windward" position from which too navigate. > now obviously, no good tiller-man is ever going to go for this system. but i am not trying too sell you one. neither am i trying too sell one too anyone else for that matter. what i am doing is simply trying bring the "State of the Art" to a new Standard. one that any mechanically inclined boat-owner with a work-shop and some time can achieve for their selves. > > fiver..... > > PS. the drawing specks for it's self. the green gear-box is the > main reduction box. and the small 3-way aluminum box is > my 1-1 Euclid for the top where the wheel is...... > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > See what's free at AOL.com. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. > --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.