Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis)

Hmmmm, very interesting. John Raxter's transmission issue might be the problem but I think your prop is the problem and it's not really a 'problem' at all. I think it is not unfolding smoothly/evenly when you drop the main at speed so it is unbalanced at that point. Is you prop clean? I'd clean it with a wire brush and barbeque scrubber to make sure it is.r Also, does your prop have gears that ensure that the blades deploy in sync and that one blade doesn't 'hang down' under sail? I suspect not so this may be a bit of a design problem that you may have to live with. If your prop does not have these gears, after you shut the engine down, you might want to put the engine neutral and rotate the shaft so that the blades, when deployed, would be horizontal. Then lock the tranny in reverse. This will keep one blade from hanging down under sail and may help mininize that vibration when dropping the main. Good luck docking at 4 knots!! Kidding. Actually, I think my boats goes about the same speed at 1300. Dave 80 Cal 35 Runnin Late SF Bay John Raxter From: "tr… [at] sbcglobal.net" <tr… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:06:50 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question John, Bill, Dave, Thanks for the info and suggestions. On my boat, I've observed the following. When I start up from a dead stop and put the transmission in forward, I increase the rpms and the prop engages and moves forward with very little vibration, as long as I keep the rpms a few hundred above idle, which is about 900 rpms. I can motor along at five or so knots with no problem. As the end of a sail, say when I start the motor to drop the main, and the boat is underway when I engage the transmission in forward, the drive line starts vibrating immediately when the transmission is engaged. The vibration continues until I get the rpms up--maybe 2000 rpms or higher. It seems like, that when the boat is underway, the water flowing past the prop wants to keep the blades closed. The prop is engaged and the blades do not open completely until the rpms are high. Once I get past this shaking, the boat will move along with little vibration. I have to dock in close quarters at a marina, and when I begin slowing the boat, down to close to idle rpms. the vibration starts again--at a lower level than in other circumstances, but too much. Also, this prop must be oversized, because at about 1300 rpms, I'm going 4 knots! That makes for exciting docking. The engine mounts look OK to me, but I've been trying to get a diesel mechanic to look over this part of the system--it is just hard to line a mechanic up here. Thanks guys, Travis From: john rr To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question Travis, The prop on my 86 cal 33-2 had an original fixed 2 blade 16x15 prop. We replaced the prop this spring with a 3-blade 16x13 dyna-jet from Michigan wheel. This was a compromise based on information gathered during my research. So far I am happy with the performance, both under sail and under power. I especially enjoy being able to gain control while backing within a boat length. Our last trip out, we were powering into a 20knot headwind. The prop powered thru the chop and swales while maintaining speed. The new prop was actually de-tuned from one the prop shop had in stock, and I believe the final cost was around $350. I don’t know what condition your gori prop since it is several years old. I believe my 2 blade became un-balanced due to years of cleaning and layers of antifouling applied. This caused a vibration around 1700 RPM that did go away as we power thru the vibration. This vibration is no longer noticeable. You may be able to send the prop off and get it balanced. You may be able to find a used prop from a sail racer to fit. Performance you should be able to use a pitch anywhere from 12-15 with little noticeable performance. John Raxter From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Travis Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:54 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question I have a 1986 Cal 33-2. Somewhere along the line a 2-blade Gori folding prop was installed. Since I bought the boat, late last year, I have had vibration problems in the driveline that I believe are related to the old folding prop. I am going to have to remove the prop, underwater, and have it checked out. As far as a fixed prop goes, does anyone have any information on what size/pitch fixed prop is specified for this boat? I may try to borrow a fixed prop to try out on the boat. The engine is a Yanmar 3gm30. Thanks, Travis Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

John, Dave, If the transmission is the problem, John, how did the mechanic diagnose the transmission as the problem? My issue will be getting a correct diagnosis. The prop is a Gori folding prop--with gears. Before the boat was launched, I looked over the prop. The gears appeared to be in good shape; there was some corrosion on the blades, but not too much. There was some play in the blades, but it did not appear to be too much--but I'm sure no expert. I have rotated the shaft by hand and can hear some "clunking" as I rotate it. I attribute this to the folding blades opening and closing as the shaft is rotated by hand; maybe the blades shouldn't open/close with hand rotation. If it is the transmission, I would be surprised if any of the mechanics around here would be able to diagnose it. Does anyone have a contact for a mechanic who might be familiar with this Yanmar transmission problem. I could call and discuss. Otherwise, I am thinking that I will need to do some diagnosis by elimination. I am thinking about removing the prop; replacing with a fixed prop; then seeing if I still have the problem. What do you all think? Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: biggs dave To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) Hmmmm, very interesting. John Raxter's transmission issue might be the problem but I think your prop is the problem and it's not really a 'problem' at all. I think it is not unfolding smoothly/evenly when you drop the main at speed so it is unbalanced at that point. Is you prop clean? I'd clean it with a wire brush and barbeque scrubber to make sure it is.r Also, does your prop have gears that ensure that the blades deploy in sync and that one blade doesn't 'hang down' under sail? I suspect not so this may be a bit of a design problem that you may have to live with. If your prop does not have these gears, after you shut the engine down, you might want to put the engine neutral and rotate the shaft so that the blades, when deployed, would be horizontal. Then lock the tranny in reverse. This will keep one blade from hanging down under sail and may help mininize that vibration when dropping the main. Good luck docking at 4 knots!! Kidding. Actually, I think my boats goes about the same speed at 1300. Dave 80 Cal 35 Runnin Late SF Bay John Raxter ----- Original Message ---- From: "tr… [at] sbcglobal.net" <tr… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:06:50 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question John, Bill, Dave, Thanks for the info and suggestions. On my boat, I've observed the following. When I start up from a dead stop and put the transmission in forward, I increase the rpms and the prop engages and moves forward with very little vibration, as long as I keep the rpms a few hundred above idle, which is about 900 rpms. I can motor along at five or so knots with no problem. As the end of a sail, say when I start the motor to drop the main, and the boat is underway when I engage the transmission in forward, the drive line starts vibrating immediately when the transmission is engaged. The vibration continues until I get the rpms up--maybe 2000 rpms or higher. It seems like, that when the boat is underway, the water flowing past the prop wants to keep the blades closed. The prop is engaged and the blades do not open completely until the rpms are high. Once I get past this shaking, the boat will move along with little vibration. I have to dock in close quarters at a marina, and when I begin slowing the boat, down to close to idle rpms. the vibration starts again--at a lower level than in other circumstances, but too much. Also, this prop must be oversized, because at about 1300 rpms, I'm going 4 knots! That makes for exciting docking. The engine mounts look OK to me, but I've been trying to get a diesel mechanic to look over this part of the system--it is just hard to line a mechanic up here. Thanks guys, Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: john rr To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question Travis, The prop on my 86 cal 33-2 had an original fixed 2 blade 16x15 prop. We replaced the prop this spring with a 3-blade 16x13 dyna-jet from Michigan wheel. This was a compromise based on information gathered during my research. So far I am happy with the performance, both under sail and under power. I especially enjoy being able to gain control while backing within a boat length. Our last trip out, we were powering into a 20knot headwind. The prop powered thru the chop and swales while maintaining speed. The new prop was actually de-tuned from one the prop shop had in stock, and I believe the final cost was around $350. I don’t know what condition your gori prop since it is several years old. I believe my 2 blade became un-balanced due to years of cleaning and layers of antifouling applied. This caused a vibration around 1700 RPM that did go away as we power thru the vibration. This vibration is no longer noticeable. You may be able to send the prop off and get it balanced. You may be able to find a used prop from a sail racer to fit. Performance you should be able to use a pitch anywhere from 12-15 with little noticeable performance. John Raxter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Travis Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:54 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question I have a 1986 Cal 33-2. Somewhere along the line a 2-blade Gori folding prop was installed. Since I bought the boat, late last year, I have had vibration problems in the driveline that I believe are related to the old folding prop. I am going to have to remove the prop, underwater, and have it checked out. As far as a fixed prop goes, does anyone have any information on what size/pitch fixed prop is specified for this boat? I may try to borrow a fixed prop to try out on the boat. The engine is a Yanmar 3gm30. Thanks, Travis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

Travis, My transmission problem was partly self diagnosed, and confirmed by the mechanic. When we first started noticing the problem, it was evident even at very low RPM. Sitting in the slip, tied to the dock, I could put the trany in gear and listen. Every few seconds I would notice a "thump". Taking the trany out of gear, putting into reverse, or even reving the engine to what I would consider "normal" RPM, the noise would stop. Again, while in the slip, engine in gear, very low idle, you could see the prop shaft "stop" and the engine shake. If this were a gas engine, I would have thought it was "missing" on one cylinder like it needed a tune up. It made sense that something was slipping a grabbing. I checked shaft alignment, and possibly a bent shaft, all based on my limited knowledge and mechanical abilities. In my mind this eliminated any shaft, bearing, alignment issues. The only thing I could not check was the balance of the prop. I did have the local yanmar mechanic check the problem. I discussed this with the yard owner and his explanation seemed the only logical diagnosis. After looking at a transmission drawing and parts book, I was assured he was correct. The shift mechanism is a "cone" that engages the shaft in a friction fit taper. Forward is one cone and taper, neutral disengages and reverse connects to a different shaft. There are no "gears" involved in the shift linkage. As with any friction fit parts, once the slipping starts, it only gets worse. Again, using an automotive analogy, think of the old manual clutches on a straight drive car. You can only nurse it along temporarily, and abuse exacerbates the problem. I think any boat yard that sales and repairs yanmar products could help you talk through the problem with your boat. Deaton's in Oriental has a good rep in eastern NC. I understand getting them to make a "house call" may be difficult. You should be able to do a web search and find a reputable yanmar mechanic closer to your boat. Good luck, John _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tr… [at] sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 3:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) John, Dave, If the transmission is the problem, John, how did the mechanic diagnose the transmission as the problem? My issue will be getting a correct diagnosis. The prop is a Gori folding prop--with gears. Before the boat was launched, I looked over the prop. The gears appeared to be in good shape; there was some corrosion on the blades, but not too much. There was some play in the blades, but it did not appear to be too much--but I'm sure no expert. I have rotated the shaft by hand and can hear some "clunking" as I rotate it. I attribute this to the folding blades opening and closing as the shaft is rotated by hand; maybe the blades shouldn't open/close with hand rotation. If it is the transmission, I would be surprised if any of the mechanics around here would be able to diagnose it. Does anyone have a contact for a mechanic who might be familiar with this Yanmar transmission problem. I could call and discuss. Otherwise, I am thinking that I will need to do some diagnosis by elimination. I am thinking about removing the prop; replacing with a fixed prop; then seeing if I still have the problem. What do you all think? Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Travis

John, Thanks for the discussion of how you went about diagnosing this problem. I'm going to try some of your tests, such as engaging tranny while tied to the dock and looking at the prop. The more I hear about your experience, the more it sounds like my issue. Thanks a bunch, Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: john r To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) Travis, My transmission problem was partly self diagnosed, and confirmed by the mechanic. When we first started noticing the problem, it was evident even at very low RPM. Sitting in the slip, tied to the dock, I could put the trany in gear and listen. Every few seconds I would notice a "thump". Taking the trany out of gear, putting into reverse, or even reving the engine to what I would consider "normal" RPM, the noise would stop. Again, while in the slip, engine in gear, very low idle, you could see the prop shaft "stop" and the engine shake. If this were a gas engine, I would have thought it was "missing" on one cylinder like it needed a tune up. It made sense that something was slipping a grabbing. I checked shaft alignment, and possibly a bent shaft, all based on my limited knowledge and mechanical abilities. In my mind this eliminated any shaft, bearing, alignment issues. The only thing I could not check was the balance of the prop. I did have the local yanmar mechanic check the problem. I discussed this with the yard owner and his explanation seemed the only logical diagnosis. After looking at a transmission drawing and parts book, I was assured he was correct. The shift mechanism is a "cone" that engages the shaft in a friction fit taper. Forward is one cone and taper, neutral disengages and reverse connects to a different shaft. There are no "gears" involved in the shift linkage. As with any friction fit parts, once the slipping starts, it only gets worse. Again, using an automotive analogy, think of the old manual clutches on a straight drive car. You can only nurse it along temporarily, and abuse exacerbates the problem. I think any boat yard that sales and repairs yanmar products could help you talk through the problem with your boat. Deaton's in Oriental has a good rep in eastern NC. I understand getting them to make a "house call" may be difficult. You should be able to do a web search and find a reputable yanmar mechanic closer to your boat. Good luck, John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tr… [at] sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 3:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) John, Dave, If the transmission is the problem, John, how did the mechanic diagnose the transmission as the problem? My issue will be getting a correct diagnosis. The prop is a Gori folding prop--with gears. Before the boat was launched, I looked over the prop. The gears appeared to be in good shape; there was some corrosion on the blades, but not too much. There was some play in the blades, but it did not appear to be too much--but I'm sure no expert. I have rotated the shaft by hand and can hear some "clunking" as I rotate it. I attribute this to the folding blades opening and closing as the shaft is rotated by hand; maybe the blades shouldn't open/close with hand rotation. If it is the transmission, I would be surprised if any of the mechanics around here would be able to diagnose it. Does anyone have a contact for a mechanic who might be familiar with this Yanmar transmission problem. I could call and discuss. Otherwise, I am thinking that I will need to do some diagnosis by elimination. I am thinking about removing the prop; replacing with a fixed prop; then seeing if I still have the problem. What do you all think? Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Travis

Reading through the thread the question that comes to mine is how old is the transmission? If it is original equipment from 1986 you should probably have it rebuilt in any case. Mine died last year assisted by a lobster pot but It was begining to go in any case. I also know of several others who have had transmissions fail between the 20 and 25 year mark. David 1984 Cal 35 From: "tr… [at] sbcglobal.net" <tr… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 10:18:25 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) John, Thanks for the discussion of how you went about diagnosing this problem. I'm going to try some of your tests, such as engaging tranny while tied to the dock and looking at the prop. The more I hear about your experience, the more it sounds like my issue. Thanks a bunch, Travis From: john r To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) Travis, My transmission problem was partly self diagnosed, and confirmed by the mechanic. When we first started noticing the problem, it was evident even at very low RPM. Sitting in the slip, tied to the dock, I could put the trany in gear and listen. Every few seconds I would notice a “thump”. Taking the trany out of gear, putting into reverse, or even reving the engine to what I would consider “normal” RPM, the noise would stop. Again, while in the slip, engine in gear, very low idle, you could see the prop shaft “stop” and the engine shake. If this were a gas engine, I would have thought it was “missing” on one cylinder like it needed a tune up. It made sense that something was slipping a grabbing. I checked shaft alignment, and possibly a bent shaft, all based on my limited knowledge and mechanical abilities. In my mind this eliminated any shaft, bearing, alignment issues. The only thing I could not check was the balance of the prop. I did have the local yanmar mechanic check the problem. I discussed this with the yard owner and his explanation seemed the only logical diagnosis. After looking at a transmission drawing and parts book, I was assured he was correct. The shift mechanism is a “cone” that engages the shaft in a friction fit taper. Forward is one cone and taper, neutral disengages and reverse connects to a different shaft. There are no “gears” involved in the shift linkage. As with any friction fit parts, once the slipping starts, it only gets worse. Again, using an automotive analogy, think of the old manual clutches on a straight drive car. You can only nurse it along temporarily, and abuse exacerbates the problem. I think any boat yard that sales and repairs yanmar products could help you talk through the problem with your boat. Deaton’s in Oriental has a good rep in eastern NC. I understand getting them to make a “house call” may be difficult. You should be able to do a web search and find a reputable yanmar mechanic closer to your boat. Good luck, John From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of travlin74@sbcglobal .net Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 3:08 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) John, Dave, If the transmission is the problem, John, how did the mechanic diagnose the transmission as the problem? My issue will be getting a correct diagnosis. The prop is a Gori folding prop--with gears. Before the boat was launched, I looked over the prop. The gears appeared to be in good shape; there was some corrosion on the blades, but not too much. There was some play in the blades, but it did not appear to be too much--but I'm sure no expert. I have rotated the shaft by hand and can hear some "clunking" as I rotate it. I attribute this to the folding blades opening and closing as the shaft is rotated by hand; maybe the blades shouldn't open/close with hand rotation. If it is the transmission, I would be surprised if any of the mechanics around here would be able to diagnose it. Does anyone have a contact for a mechanic who might be familiar with this Yanmar transmission problem. I could call and discuss. Otherwise, I am thinking that I will need to do some diagnosis by elimination. I am thinking about removing the prop; replacing with a fixed prop; then seeing if I still have the problem. What do you all think? Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Travis Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/

David, As far as I know, the transmission is original to the 1986 boat. There is no hour meter on the engine, so I have no idea of how many hours are on the engine/transmission system. Did you have yours rebuilt or exchange it with a rebuilt one? Thanks, Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: David Lyons To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) Reading through the thread the question that comes to mine is how old is the transmission? If it is original equipment from 1986 you should probably have it rebuilt in any case. Mine died last year assisted by a lobster pot but It was begining to go in any case. I also know of several others who have had transmissions fail between the 20 and 25 year mark. David 1984 Cal 35 ----- Original Message ---- From: "tr… [at] sbcglobal.net" <tr… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 10:18:25 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) John, Thanks for the discussion of how you went about diagnosing this problem. I'm going to try some of your tests, such as engaging tranny while tied to the dock and looking at the prop. The more I hear about your experience, the more it sounds like my issue. Thanks a bunch, Travis ----- Original Message ----- From: john r To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) Travis, My transmission problem was partly self diagnosed, and confirmed by the mechanic. When we first started noticing the problem, it was evident even at very low RPM. Sitting in the slip, tied to the dock, I could put the trany in gear and listen. Every few seconds I would notice a “thump”. Taking the trany out of gear, putting into reverse, or even reving the engine to what I would consider “normal” RPM, the noise would stop. Again, while in the slip, engine in gear, very low idle, you could see the prop shaft “stop” and the engine shake. If this were a gas engine, I would have thought it was “missing” on one cylinder like it needed a tune up. It made sense that something was slipping a grabbing. I checked shaft alignment, and possibly a bent shaft, all based on my limited knowledge and mechanical abilities. In my mind this eliminated any shaft, bearing, alignment issues. The only thing I could not check was the balance of the prop. I did have the local yanmar mechanic check the problem. I discussed this with the yard owner and his explanation seemed the only logical diagnosis. After looking at a transmission drawing and parts book, I was assured he was correct. The shift mechanism is a “cone” that engages the shaft in a friction fit taper. Forward is one cone and taper, neutral disengages and reverse connects to a different shaft. There are no “gears” involved in the shift linkage. As with any friction fit parts, once the slipping starts, it only gets worse. Again, using an automotive analogy, think of the old manual clutches on a straight drive car. You can only nurse it along temporarily, and abuse exacerbates the problem. I think any boat yard that sales and repairs yanmar products could help you talk through the problem with your boat. Deaton’s in Oriental has a good rep in eastern NC. I understand getting them to make a “house call” may be difficult. You should be able to do a web search and find a reputable yanmar mechanic closer to your boat. Good luck, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of travlin74@sbcglobal .net Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 3:08 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] CAL 33-2 Prop Question (Travis) John, Dave, If the transmission is the problem, John, how did the mechanic diagnose the transmission as the problem? My issue will be getting a correct diagnosis. The prop is a Gori folding prop--with gears. Before the boat was launched, I looked over the prop. The gears appeared to be in good shape; there was some corrosion on the blades, but not too much. There was some play in the blades, but it did not appear to be too much--but I'm sure no expert. I have rotated the shaft by hand and can hear some "clunking" as I rotate it. I attribute this to the folding blades opening and closing as the shaft is rotated by hand; maybe the blades shouldn't open/close with hand rotation. If it is the transmission, I would be surprised if any of the mechanics around here would be able to diagnose it. Does anyone have a contact for a mechanic who might be familiar with this Yanmar transmission problem. I could call and discuss. Otherwise, I am thinking that I will need to do some diagnosis by elimination. I am thinking about removing the prop; replacing with a fixed prop; then seeing if I still have the problem. What do you all think? Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Travis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.