Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's)

Not that I actually own any of the high tech stuff, but I have done some research as I think about what I want to buy beyond the Grundig foulies and Stearns Type III that I own. I used to think that the inflatables were another thing to maintain and perhaps to fail at a bad time, but I discovered that the inflatables have as much floatation as a type I lifejacket. Type II, and III have less floatation, add some waves and you could be in trouble. Type II and III are for near shore use. My guess is float coats have about as much buoyancy as a type III. http://www.boatus.com/foundation/Findings/Inflatablepfd.htm Inflatables under coats. A not so amusing anecdote from a book I have on the Sidney Hobart race that had the bad storm. Foredeck crew disappears under solid green water on the foredeck. Water leaves deck, foredeck crew is still there, but the rest of the crew sees that he is writhing about on the deck. They then observe him pull out his knife and start to stab himself in the chest. He was wearing his inflatable under his foulies, the water activated his vest. He couldn't breathe as it was too tight, problem resolved by deflating the vest. Foulies, one pieces or whatever bulky clothing can contain enough water to make swimming near impossible, but water is neutrally buoyant it won't pull you down, you just can't swim well enough to keep your head out which results in the same ending for you. The point is you need a life jacket with any bulky clothing that limits your swimming ability, not just for one pieces. Mustang makes a one piece worksuit with floatation that is almost as good as their survival suit for warmth in the water. http://www.mustangsurvival.com/resources/documentation/catalogs/mustang_gsa_catalog.pdf John From: slickbutfoxbuger <fi… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 3:47:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's) heaven help anyone overboard; let-a-lone in rough, cold, and or less-than tropical dock-side sort of conditions. i suppose when i think about it, sailing can be dangerous. but it need not be, and i see that as a very *Important* distention! fiver recently posted a short story of a sailing adventure she had on the Puget Sound aboard *Nemesis* (Cal 3-30), with Fred Haas (Owner & Capt.). at the Skipper's meeting before that days race, i took note of the *PFD's* the different people had worn to the meeting (required). mostly i think *inflatable* as they were hidden under jackets. i thought to myself; Ok, not my first choice. not in these cold- ass waters. as much to my surprise i had the only *float-coat* in the bunch. and i'd have had a small inflatable under that if i had the money too! one of those belt type. but first i need to get a par of CG approved overalls if i am going to keep sailing in the winter. after all, it's not just keeling your head above water that counts in the north. the cold water will kill your ass pretty bloody fast too! and i would rather be too hot while i am sailing than too cold while i am swimming. this as one is for fun, and the other is for life. but just the same, a couple of the fellows at the meeting had on real pretty (matching) red bad weather sailing suits. the sort that if one float-tests, will simply fill-up with water and sink like a sub. but i must say, they sure looked pretty! probable cost more than i paid for BB-54. but hay, they must have had some sort of inflatable under it all (for all the good that would have done them). each to their own, right. i am just using this as an example. for all i know the red suits may blow-up like the one Woody Allen wore in that old movie where the lady road him across the lake...... so now that i have this nice bomber-style float-coat and matching floating pants/coveralls; what if anything should i put in the pockets? will, a real good cutting instrument of some sort. if i go in the drink, i may need to cut myself free of something. and if there is an emergency onboard, i may need to cut a line, or even a halyard. such as in a blow-down. next a whistle, but not just one. i would also get a gas-powered min-horn and stick that i a pocket too! i have heard a story or two of boats hearing a whistle and not being able to tell where it's coming from. or a person whistling at a boat and the boat not hearing them. so next it's the best auto-strobe light i can find. that goes on the outside. and then a good (small) led water-proof led style flash-light for the pocket. and then the most important point, if nothing else; put your damn cell-phone in a zip-lock plastic bag and stuff that in a pocket. you just never know...... Oh, and if they ever invent a orange instant-inflatable balloon on a string, i'll get one of them too! now, start thinking about how the hell you are going to get out of the water again. it just mite be a bigger problem than finding you after you fall in you know. like last Saturday with Capt. Fred and i. if fiver had gone for a swim, how the hell was Fred going to get me out of the water once He me again? if He ever found me in that swell and wight-cap. it sure as hell wasn't likely that i was going to be of any help after even 5 or 10 minutes in Puget Sound. given that, what should been His first move, call the CG or go looking? it's certain He would not have been able to keep an eye on me and handle *Nemesis* at the same time. you all want to know the truth.... i have been around enough that i knew going out that day. if i had gone for a swim, i was dead the moment i hit the water. not off a sailboat.... .. there are things that the seaman can do to improve his or her survivability in the water. and i do all of those things i can. but when it comes right down to it, experience at sea makes all the difference in the world. that and the understanding that every part of that boat or ship is *Expendable* in the pursuit of safety. that means that if someone goes over the side; i don't take time to get the sail down. cut the bloody halyards, get the engine started and get that boat back to that person. i need a line; Wow, there is a jib sheet! now i got a line!!!! bill me for it..... if i can't get that person on board, tie a line around me and i'll go in and get em. then at lest we both got a line tied around us. if your near-shore, and you can't get them aboard, tie on to them and drag them to the shore. what is worth more, your boat or the life; you figure it out budds. where i come from, we don't leave a body to die alone. i never have, nor will i ever. i couldn't live with myself...... . so what does all of this have to do with the tragic loss of the J-35 and her crew; well, beside the fact that every crew member has a responsibility to them selves to come aboard equipped and ready for his or her own personal safety. and with the guts to insist on it! i also feel that modern sailboats need to be outfitted for safety. something that i am sad to say they are not today. take a simple thing like the propeller. the feathering prop may be fine for a lake or up some small river. but it sure as hell isn't fine for place's where one may encounter heavy weather. i don't see how any boat can be expected to recover a man-over-board if the ship can't maneuver in the conditions under which it is likely to be out in when the man is lost in. but then what racer is going to hang a good high-thrust 3 or 4 blade screw under his tail unless the rules require all boats to do so? it's not unlike banning chemical weapons, isn't it. and then there is that cock-pit full of tiller that all of you sailors seem to just love so much. as far as i am concerned, it's bloody dangerous! lets ban the tiller in all boats above a given length and or weight. that way everyone will be playing with the same toys. and if not banning the tiller, then require the cock-pit to be twice the length of the tiller. these are just two simple observations that i have held for a long time. one of which was confirmed Saturday. but maybe people have gotten so used to boats the way they exist now that change is unthinkable. it isn't you know. just try coloring out of the box once in a while, or does it take the loss of a few more J-35's...... fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) ************ ********* ********* ** --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, david dobbs <tmft567@... > wrote: > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > Listees, > We lost three sailors last night. Full details are not yet known, but the basics of the story are that a J-35 left Monroe Harbor last evening around 6pm, in VERY bad conditions, gale warnings, over 25 knots NE winds, over 6 feet waves with short intervals. They sailed to the Calumet Harbor breakwater, some 11 miles. While trying to take down the sails a crewmember went overboard. The boat sent a Mayday and began an attempt to recover the crew. They may have been capsized by the waves, but ended up being crushed on the breakwall. They were in the water about 45 minutes or so, and only one survived. They were all wearing PFDs. The water temp was 58 degrees. > They were on their way to the boatyard for winter storage. They were not novices, the boat had done the Chicago-Mackinac race this year. > In Chicago, in October, you pay very close attention to the Lake. It's been blowing from the NE for 3 days and you pay attention to that. > I don't know why these guys made the decision they did, maybe we will find out from the survivor, but you can always reschedule your haulout, or whatever. It can always wait. It's not worth a life. Much less three. > I had a personal experience once, when I was very green, and I made some decisions that I shouldn't have made, and was saved by some powerboaters. I became really conservative about safety, and am to this day. > Just remember, as Jerry Powlas says, sailing is risky business, and you have a responsibility as an owner/captain toward your crew and ship. > > Regards, > David Dobbs > Cal29 411 > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

When I was in the Navy everyone had to swim a mile with their one piece flight suit on. Of course it slows you down, and perhaps I did it faster than the rest of the people in my particular class, being a competitive swimmer (I wasn't the fastest swimmer in Pensacola at the time, we had Battalion Sports on Sat. AM, and some of us were All-Americans!. Water has neutral effect on buoyancy, when you're swimming you are supposed to keep your body submerged but parallel to the surface so you will go faster. If you try to lift parts of your body above the water level it will make you sink weather you are clothed or naked. The nice think about keeping your clothes on is it will keep you warmer while you are awaiting rescue. The only caveat is that heavy boots you may want to remove...? Maybe you should practice swimming with clothes on in a shallow pool before you go overboard and panic. Jerry --- On Sat, 10/27/07, John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, October 27, 2007, 4:20 PM Not that I actually own any of the high tech stuff, but I have done some research as I think about what I want to buy beyond the Grundig foulies and Stearns Type III that I own. I used to think that the inflatables were another thing to maintain and perhaps to fail at a bad time, but I discovered that the inflatables have as much floatation as a type I lifejacket. Type II, and III have less floatation, add some waves and you could be in trouble. Type II and III are for near shore use. My guess is float coats have about as much buoyancy as a type III. http://www.boatus. com/foundation/ Findings/ Inflatablepfd. htm Inflatables under coats. A not so amusing anecdote from a book I have on the Sidney Hobart race that had the bad storm. Foredeck crew disappears under solid green water on the foredeck. Water leaves deck, foredeck crew is still there, but the rest of the crew sees that he is writhing about on the deck. They then observe him pull out his knife and start to stab himself in the chest. He was wearing his inflatable under his foulies, the water activated his vest. He couldn't breathe as it was too tight, problem resolved by deflating the vest. Foulies, one pieces or whatever bulky clothing can contain enough water to make swimming near impossible, but water is neutrally buoyant it won't pull you down, you just can't swim well enough to keep your head out which results in the same ending for you. The point is you need a life jacket with any bulky clothing that limits your swimming ability, not just for one pieces. Mustang makes a one piece worksuit with floatation that is almost as good as their survival suit for warmth in the water. http://www.mustangs urvival.com/ resources/ documentation/ catalogs/ mustang_gsa_ catalog.pdf John From: slickbutfoxbuger <fiverhrairoo@ aol.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 3:47:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's) heaven help anyone overboard; let-a-lone in rough, cold, and or less-than tropical dock-side sort of conditions. i suppose when i think about it, sailing can be dangerous. but it need not be, and i see that as a very *Important* distention! fiver recently posted a short story of a sailing adventure she had on the Puget Sound aboard *Nemesis* (Cal 3-30), with Fred Haas (Owner & Capt.). at the Skipper's meeting before that days race, i took note of the *PFD's* the different people had worn to the meeting (required). mostly i think *inflatable* as they were hidden under jackets. i thought to myself; Ok, not my first choice. not in these cold- ass waters. as much to my surprise i had the only *float-coat* in the bunch. and i'd have had a small inflatable under that if i had the money too! one of those belt type. but first i need to get a par of CG approved overalls if i am going to keep sailing in the winter. after all, it's not just keeling your head above water that counts in the north. the cold water will kill your ass pretty bloody fast too! and i would rather be too hot while i am sailing than too cold while i am swimming. this as one is for fun, and the other is for life. but just the same, a couple of the fellows at the meeting had on real pretty (matching) red bad weather sailing suits. the sort that if one float-tests, will simply fill-up with water and sink like a sub. but i must say, they sure looked pretty! probable cost more than i paid for BB-54. but hay, they must have had some sort of inflatable under it all (for all the good that would have done them). each to their own, right. i am just using this as an example. for all i know the red suits may blow-up like the one Woody Allen wore in that old movie where the lady road him across the lake...... so now that i have this nice bomber-style float-coat and matching floating pants/coveralls; what if anything should i put in the pockets? will, a real good cutting instrument of some sort. if i go in the drink, i may need to cut myself free of something. and if there is an emergency onboard, i may need to cut a line, or even a halyard. such as in a blow-down. next a whistle, but not just one. i would also get a gas-powered min-horn and stick that i a pocket too! i have heard a story or two of boats hearing a whistle and not being able to tell where it's coming from. or a person whistling at a boat and the boat not hearing them. so next it's the best auto-strobe light i can find. that goes on the outside. and then a good (small) led water-proof led style flash-light for the pocket. and then the most important point, if nothing else; put your damn cell-phone in a zip-lock plastic bag and stuff that in a pocket. you just never know...... Oh, and if they ever invent a orange instant-inflatable balloon on a string, i'll get one of them too! now, start thinking about how the hell you are going to get out of the water again. it just mite be a bigger problem than finding you after you fall in you know. like last Saturday with Capt. Fred and i. if fiver had gone for a swim, how the hell was Fred going to get me out of the water once He me again? if He ever found me in that swell and wight-cap. it sure as hell wasn't likely that i was going to be of any help after even 5 or 10 minutes in Puget Sound. given that, what should been His first move, call the CG or go looking? it's certain He would not have been able to keep an eye on me and handle *Nemesis* at the same time. you all want to know the truth.... i have been around enough that i knew going out that day. if i had gone for a swim, i was dead the moment i hit the water. not off a sailboat.... .. there are things that the seaman can do to improve his or her survivability in the water. and i do all of those things i can. but when it comes right down to it, experience at sea makes all the difference in the world. that and the understanding that every part of that boat or ship is *Expendable* in the pursuit of safety. that means that if someone goes over the side; i don't take time to get the sail down. cut the bloody halyards, get the engine started and get that boat back to that person. i need a line; Wow, there is a jib sheet! now i got a line!!!! bill me for it..... if i can't get that person on board, tie a line around me and i'll go in and get em. then at lest we both got a line tied around us. if your near-shore, and you can't get them aboard, tie on to them and drag them to the shore. what is worth more, your boat or the life; you figure it out budds. where i come from, we don't leave a body to die alone. i never have, nor will i ever. i couldn't live with myself...... . so what does all of this have to do with the tragic loss of the J-35 and her crew; well, beside the fact that every crew member has a responsibility to them selves to come aboard equipped and ready for his or her own personal safety. and with the guts to insist on it! i also feel that modern sailboats need to be outfitted for safety. something that i am sad to say they are not today. take a simple thing like the propeller. the feathering prop may be fine for a lake or up some small river. but it sure as hell isn't fine for place's where one may encounter heavy weather. i don't see how any boat can be expected to recover a man-over-board if the ship can't maneuver in the conditions under which it is likely to be out in when the man is lost in. but then what racer is going to hang a good high-thrust 3 or 4 blade screw under his tail unless the rules require all boats to do so? it's not unlike banning chemical weapons, isn't it. and then there is that cock-pit full of tiller that all of you sailors seem to just love so much. as far as i am concerned, it's bloody dangerous! lets ban the tiller in all boats above a given length and or weight. that way everyone will be playing with the same toys. and if not banning the tiller, then require the cock-pit to be twice the length of the tiller. these are just two simple observations that i have held for a long time. one of which was confirmed Saturday. but maybe people have gotten so used to boats the way they exist now that change is unthinkable. it isn't you know. just try coloring out of the box once in a while, or does it take the loss of a few more J-35's...... fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) ************ ********* ********* ** --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com , david dobbs <tmft567@... > wrote: > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > Listees, > We lost three sailors last night. Full details are not yet known, but the basics of the story are that a J-35 left Monroe Harbor last evening around 6pm, in VERY bad conditions, gale warnings, over 25 knots NE winds, over 6 feet waves with short intervals. They sailed to the Calumet Harbor breakwater, some 11 miles. While trying to take down the sails a crewmember went overboard. The boat sent a Mayday and began an attempt to recover the crew. They may have been capsized by the waves, but ended up being crushed on the breakwall. They were in the water about 45 minutes or so, and only one survived. They were all wearing PFDs. The water temp was 58 degrees. > They were on their way to the boatyard for winter storage. They were not novices, the boat had done the Chicago-Mackinac race this year. > In Chicago, in October, you pay very close attention to the Lake. It's been blowing from the NE for 3 days and you pay attention to that. > I don't know why these guys made the decision they did, maybe we will find out from the survivor, but you can always reschedule your haulout, or whatever. It can always wait. It's not worth a life. Much less three. > I had a personal experience once, when I was very green, and I made some decisions that I shouldn't have made, and was saved by some powerboaters. I became really conservative about safety, and am to this day. > Just remember, as Jerry Powlas says, sailing is risky business, and you have a responsibility as an owner/captain toward your crew and ship. > > Regards, > David Dobbs > Cal29 411 > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com

Hi All, I have to add my learning experience to this. Nov 11, will be a year since I went overboard. I was in a race and something broke sending me into the water. The wind was blowing in excess of 35 kts and waves were 12-14, the skipper lost me after the second wave went past. The water temp in upper SOCAL is 58 degrees, I was in the water for 35 minutes. With everything I had on (Pretty sailing garb) I was stage II hypothermia. (Not thinking straight and shaking uncontrollably) Recently I was able to do a presentation at the local yacht club and got to share my experience. I was surprised at the people who shared stories as well that everyone could draw from. I would like to add what I have learned since. I hope I don't forget anything. We all, everyone, skippers and crew have a responsibility to practice good seamanship. Rule number 1; stay on the boat, Keep your crew on the boat and as skippers, get everyone back on the boat. Rule number 2; get everyone home safe. I will tell you what I have done since and it does not add thousands of dollars to my sailing. Like Fiver said. The boats went right by me and never heard my whistle. They did not see me waving or even really look for me. They knew were they were going and looked for me in the wrong place. 1000 yards from where I was. Even the Helo gave up on me till someone on the oil rig radioed and pointed out the last time they saw me I was over there, not over here. I can go on as you can tell, Fit your PFD, I wore mine with some different clothing than the last time and my PFD was up around my face and the water was over my nose and I was choking. Always make sure it fits properly. Blow it up manually if you have to, to see what I am talking about. If you have a Auto PFD, replace the cylinder and aspirin every year. It has to work the first time. Sign into UK Halsey and watch their COB videos. It shows you how to go back and pick someone up. Type in Crew overboard symposium, it gives a lot of info on equipment you can use. I worked with John Rousminere on my presentation. They gave me a lot of info. Get a throw bag with 75 feet of rope and learn how to throw it at someone. Time is everything and a throw bag covers a lot of water. Have a Man or Crew overboard pole and horseshoe or similar floating device ready at all times. PHRF rules state you only need one for overnight races. "Hello! We are talking about friends and family here. People we love to be around!!!" A lot of racers in SOCAL only have a life sling on their boats. To me, they only aide getting the person back on board vice locating someone. I added a handheld waterproof (now they float) radio to my man overboard pole and a flare and smoke kit. I also keep these in my pocket. I wear my kayaking Simi dry gear when it is cold, it keeps most of the water out. I wear polar fleece gear under that. My outer shell is breathable. At night I wear a Kayaking PFD with radio and flares in the pockets. I am a kayaker as well as a sailor so I have all the stuff at hand. See Kokatat or NRS kayaking gear. It is cheaaper than stuff with sailing on it. Getting someone back on board is something none of us ever think about but is just as hard and locating someone. I wish I could come to everyone’s clubs and share my story. I felt it was a good presentation and I got a lot of good feed back. Thank you for letting me share! Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands Ca John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Not that I actually own any of the high tech stuff, but I have done some research as I think about what I want to buy beyond the Grundig foulies and Stearns Type III that I own. I used to think that the inflatables were another thing to maintain and perhaps to fail at a bad time, but I discovered that the inflatables have as much floatation as a type I lifejacket. Type II, and III have less floatation, add some waves and you could be in trouble. Type II and III are for near shore use. My guess is float coats have about as much buoyancy as a type III. http://www.boatus.com/foundation/Findings/Inflatablepfd.htm Inflatables under coats. A not so amusing anecdote from a book I have on the Sidney Hobart race that had the bad storm. Foredeck crew disappears under solid green water on the foredeck. Water leaves deck, foredeck crew is still there, but the rest of the crew sees that he is writhing about on the deck. They then observe him pull out his knife and start to stab himself in the chest. He was wearing his inflatable under his foulies, the water activated his vest. He couldn't breathe as it was too tight, problem resolved by deflating the vest. Foulies, one pieces or whatever bulky clothing can contain enough water to make swimming near impossible, but water is neutrally buoyant it won't pull you down, you just can't swim well enough to keep your head out which results in the same ending for you. The point is you need a life jacket with any bulky clothing that limits your swimming ability, not just for one pieces. Mustang makes a one piece worksuit with floatation that is almost as good as their survival suit for warmth in the water. http://www.mustangsurvival.com/resources/documentation/catalogs/mustang_gsa_catalog.pdf John ----- Original Message ---- From: slickbutfoxbuger <fi… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 3:47:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's) heaven help anyone overboard; let-a-lone in rough, cold, and or less-than tropical dock-side sort of conditions. i suppose when i think about it, sailing can be dangerous. but it need not be, and i see that as a very *Important* distention! fiver recently posted a short story of a sailing adventure she had on the Puget Sound aboard *Nemesis* (Cal 3-30), with Fred Haas (Owner & Capt.). at the Skipper's meeting before that days race, i took note of the *PFD's* the different people had worn to the meeting (required). mostly i think *inflatable* as they were hidden under jackets. i thought to myself; Ok, not my first choice. not in these cold- ass waters. as much to my surprise i had the only *float-coat* in the bunch. and i'd have had a small inflatable under that if i had the money too! one of those belt type. but first i need to get a par of CG approved overalls if i am going to keep sailing in the winter. after all, it's not just keeling your head above water that counts in the north. the cold water will kill your ass pretty bloody fast too! and i would rather be too hot while i am sailing than too cold while i am swimming. this as one is for fun, and the other is for life. but just the same, a couple of the fellows at the meeting had on real pretty (matching) red bad weather sailing suits. the sort that if one float-tests, will simply fill-up with water and sink like a sub. but i must say, they sure looked pretty! probable cost more than i paid for BB-54. but hay, they must have had some sort of inflatable under it all (for all the good that would have done them). each to their own, right. i am just using this as an example. for all i know the red suits may blow-up like the one Woody Allen wore in that old movie where the lady road him across the lake...... so now that i have this nice bomber-style float-coat and matching floating pants/coveralls; what if anything should i put in the pockets? will, a real good cutting instrument of some sort. if i go in the drink, i may need to cut myself free of something. and if there is an emergency onboard, i may need to cut a line, or even a halyard. such as in a blow-down. next a whistle, but not just one. i would also get a gas-powered min-horn and stick that i a pocket too! i have heard a story or two of boats hearing a whistle and not being able to tell where it's coming from. or a person whistling at a boat and the boat not hearing them. so next it's the best auto-strobe light i can find. that goes on the outside. and then a good (small) led water-proof led style flash-light for the pocket. and then the most important point, if nothing else; put your damn cell-phone in a zip-lock plastic bag and stuff that in a pocket. you just never know...... Oh, and if they ever invent a orange instant-inflatable balloon on a string, i'll get one of them too! now, start thinking about how the hell you are going to get out of the water again. it just mite be a bigger problem than finding you after you fall in you know. like last Saturday with Capt. Fred and i. if fiver had gone for a swim, how the hell was Fred going to get me out of the water once He me again? if He ever found me in that swell and wight-cap. it sure as hell wasn't likely that i was going to be of any help after even 5 or 10 minutes in Puget Sound. given that, what should been His first move, call the CG or go looking? it's certain He would not have been able to keep an eye on me and handle *Nemesis* at the same time. you all want to know the truth.... i have been around enough that i knew going out that day. if i had gone for a swim, i was dead the moment i hit the water. not off a sailboat.... .. there are things that the seaman can do to improve his or her survivability in the water. and i do all of those things i can. but when it comes right down to it, experience at sea makes all the difference in the world. that and the understanding that every part of that boat or ship is *Expendable* in the pursuit of safety. that means that if someone goes over the side; i don't take time to get the sail down. cut the bloody halyards, get the engine started and get that boat back to that person. i need a line; Wow, there is a jib sheet! now i got a line!!!! bill me for it..... if i can't get that person on board, tie a line around me and i'll go in and get em. then at lest we both got a line tied around us. if your near-shore, and you can't get them aboard, tie on to them and drag them to the shore. what is worth more, your boat or the life; you figure it out budds. where i come from, we don't leave a body to die alone. i never have, nor will i ever. i couldn't live with myself...... . so what does all of this have to do with the tragic loss of the J-35 and her crew; well, beside the fact that every crew member has a responsibility to them selves to come aboard equipped and ready for his or her own personal safety. and with the guts to insist on it! i also feel that modern sailboats need to be outfitted for safety. something that i am sad to say they are not today. take a simple thing like the propeller. the feathering prop may be fine for a lake or up some small river. but it sure as hell isn't fine for place's where one may encounter heavy weather. i don't see how any boat can be expected to recover a man-over-board if the ship can't maneuver in the conditions under which it is likely to be out in when the man is lost in. but then what racer is going to hang a good high-thrust 3 or 4 blade screw under his tail unless the rules require all boats to do so? it's not unlike banning chemical weapons, isn't it. and then there is that cock-pit full of tiller that all of you sailors seem to just love so much. as far as i am concerned, it's bloody dangerous! lets ban the tiller in all boats above a given length and or weight. that way everyone will be playing with the same toys. and if not banning the tiller, then require the cock-pit to be twice the length of the tiller. these are just two simple observations that i have held for a long time. one of which was confirmed Saturday. but maybe people have gotten so used to boats the way they exist now that change is unthinkable. it isn't you know. just try coloring out of the box once in a while, or does it take the loss of a few more J-35's...... fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) ************ ********* ********* ** --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, david dobbs <tmft567@... > wrote: > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > Listees, > We lost three sailors last night. Full details are not yet known, but the basics of the story are that a J-35 left Monroe Harbor last evening around 6pm, in VERY bad conditions, gale warnings, over 25 knots NE winds, over 6 feet waves with short intervals. They sailed to the Calumet Harbor breakwater, some 11 miles. While trying to take down the sails a crewmember went overboard. The boat sent a Mayday and began an attempt to recover the crew. They may have been capsized by the waves, but ended up being crushed on the breakwall. They were in the water about 45 minutes or so, and only one survived. They were all wearing PFDs. The water temp was 58 degrees. > They were on their way to the boatyard for winter storage. They were not novices, the boat had done the Chicago-Mackinac race this year. > In Chicago, in October, you pay very close attention to the Lake. It's been blowing from the NE for 3 days and you pay attention to that. > I don't know why these guys made the decision they did, maybe we will find out from the survivor, but you can always reschedule your haulout, or whatever. It can always wait. It's not worth a life. Much less three. > I had a personal experience once, when I was very green, and I made some decisions that I shouldn't have made, and was saved by some powerboaters. I became really conservative about safety, and am to this day. > Just remember, as Jerry Powlas says, sailing is risky business, and you have a responsibility as an owner/captain toward your crew and ship. > > Regards, > David Dobbs > Cal29 411 > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

i would offer my thanks, Randy, but to tell the truth, i don't think i have earned the right, yet; yea, i been over the side lots of times; a few even at great risk to life in very bad conditions. but none at sea like you, Randy. and that is why i Know Your advice is Tops! not just advice, but more like Fact Really. i think like you do; the USCG requirements are only a *Minimum Start*. and never to be thought of as a safe-maxim end- point for safety gear, or education level. i have even thought about adding *kick-out panel's* to both sides of the cock-pit aft where i am removing the seats for my steering well on BB-54; this so i can get a *MOB* back aboard. i think that people who have never had the experience of finding themselves in the water just can't conceive of the disorientation and then helplessness that cold does bring. the fact that absolutely everything is above you, and therefor out of your reach and sight. and even if you could reach it, water is like space; to reach up is to sink down. for every action there is an reverse action because you are floating, not standing on land anymore. and because you are too tuckered out to keep your self afloat, it's only your PFD that is doing the job. so to put your hand up to wave, or grasp something, your nose goes under. and then if you hadn't panic, you will..... :)(: i sure wish i could talk with you in person, Randy. fiver..... ************************* --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have to add my learning experience to this. > > Nov 11, will be a year since I went overboard. I was in a race and something broke sending me into the water. The wind was blowing in excess of 35 kts and waves were 12-14, the skipper lost me after the second wave went past. > > The water temp in upper SOCAL is 58 degrees, I was in the water for 35 minutes. With everything I had on (Pretty sailing garb) I was stage II hypothermia. (Not thinking straight and shaking uncontrollably) > > Recently I was able to do a presentation at the local yacht club and got to share my experience. I was surprised at the people who shared stories as well that everyone could draw from. > > I would like to add what I have learned since. > > I hope I don't forget anything. > > We all, everyone, skippers and crew have a responsibility to practice good seamanship. Rule number 1; stay on the boat, Keep your crew on the boat and as skippers, get everyone back on the boat. Rule number 2; get everyone home safe. > > I will tell you what I have done since and it does not add thousands of dollars to my sailing. > > Like Fiver said. The boats went right by me and never heard my whistle. They did not see me waving or even really look for me. They knew were they were going and looked for me in the wrong place. 1000 yards from where I was. Even the Helo gave up on me till someone on the oil rig radioed and pointed out the last time they saw me I was over there, not over here. > > I can go on as you can tell, > > Fit your PFD, I wore mine with some different clothing than the last time and my PFD was up around my face and the water was over my nose and I was choking. Always make sure it fits properly. Blow it up manually if you have to, to see what I am talking about. > > If you have a Auto PFD, replace the cylinder and aspirin every year. It has to work the first time. > > Sign into UK Halsey and watch their COB videos. It shows you how to go back and pick someone up. > > Type in Crew overboard symposium, it gives a lot of info on equipment you can use. > > I worked with John Rousminere on my presentation. They gave me a lot of info. > > Get a throw bag with 75 feet of rope and learn how to throw it at someone. Time is everything and a throw bag covers a lot of water. > > Have a Man or Crew overboard pole and horseshoe or similar floating device ready at all times. PHRF rules state you only need one for overnight races. > > "Hello! We are talking about friends and family here. People we love to be around!!!" > > A lot of racers in SOCAL only have a life sling on their boats. To me, they only aide getting the person back on board vice locating someone. > > I added a handheld waterproof (now they float) radio to my man overboard pole and a flare and smoke kit. I also keep these in my pocket. > > I wear my kayaking Simi dry gear when it is cold, it keeps most of the water out. I wear polar fleece gear under that. My outer shell is breathable. At night I wear a Kayaking PFD with radio and flares in the pockets. > > I am a kayaker as well as a sailor so I have all the stuff at hand. See Kokatat or NRS kayaking gear. It is cheaaper than stuff with sailing on it. > > Getting someone back on board is something none of us ever think about but is just as hard and locating someone. > > I wish I could come to everyone's clubs and share my story. I felt it was a good presentation and I got a lot of good feed back. > > Thank you for letting me share! > > > Randy > > CAL 2-29 > Out Patient > Channel Islands Ca > > John Courter <cal40john@...> wrote: > > Not that I actually own any of the high tech stuff, but I have done some research as I think about what I want to buy beyond the Grundig foulies and Stearns Type III that I own. > > I used to think that the inflatables were another thing to maintain and perhaps to fail at a bad time, but I discovered that the inflatables have as much floatation as a type I lifejacket. Type II, and III have less floatation, add some waves and you could be in trouble. Type II and III are for near shore use. My guess is float coats have about as much buoyancy as a type III. > > http://www.boatus.com/foundation/Findings/Inflatablepfd.htm > > Inflatables under coats. A not so amusing anecdote from a book I have on the Sidney Hobart race that had the bad storm. Foredeck crew disappears under solid green water on the foredeck. Water leaves deck, foredeck crew is still there, but the rest of the crew sees that he is writhing about on the deck. They then observe him pull out his knife and start to stab himself in the chest. He was wearing his inflatable under his foulies, the water activated his vest. He couldn't breathe as it was too tight, problem resolved by deflating the vest. > > Foulies, one pieces or whatever bulky clothing can contain enough water to make swimming near impossible, but water is neutrally buoyant it won't pull you down, you just can't swim well enough to keep your head out which results in the same ending for you. The point is you need a life jacket with any bulky clothing that limits your swimming ability, not just for one pieces. > > Mustang makes a one piece worksuit with floatation that is almost as good as their survival suit for warmth in the water. > http://www.mustangsurvival.com/resources/documentation/catalogs/mustan g_gsa_catalog.pdf > > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: slickbutfoxbuger <fiverhrairoo@...> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 3:47:35 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's) > > heaven help anyone overboard; > > let-a-lone in rough, cold, and or less-than tropical dock-side > sort of conditions. i suppose when i think about it, sailing can be > dangerous. but it need not be, and i see that as a very *Important* > distention! > > fiver recently posted a short story of a sailing adventure she > had on the Puget Sound aboard *Nemesis* (Cal 3-30), with Fred Haas > (Owner & Capt.). at the Skipper's meeting before that days race, i > took note of the *PFD's* the different people had worn to the meeting > (required). mostly i think *inflatable* as they were hidden under > jackets. > i thought to myself; Ok, not my first choice. not in these cold- > ass waters. as much to my surprise i had the only *float-coat* in > the bunch. and i'd have had a small inflatable under that if i had > the money too! one of those belt type. but first i need to get a par > of CG approved overalls if i am going to keep sailing in the winter. > after all, it's not just keeling your head above water that counts > in the north. the cold water will kill your ass pretty bloody fast > too! and i would rather be too hot while i am sailing than too cold > while i am swimming. this as one is for fun, and the other is for > life. > but just the same, a couple of the fellows at the meeting had on > real pretty (matching) red bad weather sailing suits. the sort that > if one float-tests, will simply fill-up with water and sink like a > sub. but i must say, they sure looked pretty! probable cost more than > i paid for BB-54. but hay, they must have had some sort of inflatable > under it all (for all the good that would have done them). each to > their own, right. i am just using this as an example. for all i know > the red suits may blow-up like the one Woody Allen wore in that old > movie where the lady road him across the lake...... > > so now that i have this nice bomber-style float-coat and matching > floating pants/coveralls; what if anything should i put in the > pockets? will, a real good cutting instrument of some sort. if i go > in the drink, i may need to cut myself free of something. and if > there is an emergency onboard, i may need to cut a line, or even a > halyard. such as in a blow-down. next a whistle, but not just one. i > would also get a gas-powered min-horn and stick that i a pocket too! > i have heard a story or two of boats hearing a whistle and not being > able to tell where it's coming from. or a person whistling at a boat > and the boat not hearing them. so next it's the best auto-strobe > light i can find. that goes on the outside. and then a good (small) > led water-proof led style flash-light for the pocket. and then the > most important point, if nothing else; put your damn cell-phone in a > zip-lock plastic bag and stuff that in a pocket. you just never > know...... > Oh, and if they ever invent a orange instant-inflatable balloon > on a string, i'll get one of them too! > > now, start thinking about how the hell you are going to get out > of the water again. it just mite be a bigger problem than finding you > after you fall in you know. like last Saturday with Capt. Fred and i. > if fiver had gone for a swim, how the hell was Fred going to get me > out of the water once He me again? if He ever found me in that swell > and wight-cap. it sure as hell wasn't likely that i was going to be > of any help after even 5 or 10 minutes in Puget Sound. given that, > what should been His first move, call the CG or go looking? it's > certain He would not have been able to keep an eye on me and handle > *Nemesis* at the same time. > you all want to know the truth.... > i have been around enough that i knew going out that day. > if i had gone for a swim, i was dead the moment i hit the water. not > off a sailboat.... .. > > there are things that the seaman can do to improve his or her > survivability in the water. and i do all of those things i can. but > when it comes right down to it, experience at sea makes all the > difference in the world. that and the understanding that every part > of that boat or ship is *Expendable* in the pursuit of safety. that > means that if someone goes over the side; i don't take time to get > the sail down. cut the bloody halyards, get the engine started and > get that boat back to that person. i need a line; Wow, there is a jib > sheet! now i got a line!!!! bill me for it..... if i can't get that > person on board, tie a line around me and i'll go in and get em. then > at lest we both got a line tied around us. if your near-shore, and > you can't get them aboard, tie on to them and drag them to the shore. > what is worth more, your boat or the life; you figure it out budds. > where i come from, we don't leave a body to die alone. i never have, > nor will i ever. i couldn't live with myself...... . > > so what does all of this have to do with the tragic loss of the > J-35 and her crew; well, beside the fact that every crew member has a > responsibility to them selves to come aboard equipped and ready for > his or her own personal safety. and with the guts to insist on it! i > also feel that modern sailboats need to be outfitted for safety. > something that i am sad to say they are not today. take a simple > thing like the propeller. the feathering prop may be fine for a lake > or up some small river. but it sure as hell isn't fine for place's > where one may encounter heavy weather. i don't see how any boat can > be expected to recover a man-over-board if the ship can't maneuver in > the conditions under which it is likely to be out in when the man is > lost in. but then what racer is going to hang a good high-thrust 3 or > 4 blade screw under his tail unless the rules require all boats to do > so? it's not unlike banning chemical weapons, isn't it. and then > there is that cock-pit full of tiller that all of you sailors seem to > just love so much. as far as i am concerned, it's bloody dangerous! > lets ban the tiller in all boats above a given length and or weight. > that way everyone will be playing with the same toys. and if not > banning the tiller, then require the cock-pit to be twice the length > of the tiller. > > these are just two simple observations that i have held for a > long time. one of which was confirmed Saturday. but maybe people have > gotten so used to boats the way they exist now that change is > unthinkable. it isn't you know. just try coloring out of the box once > in a while, or does it take the loss of a few more J-35's...... > > fiver, > Master of The "BB-54" > one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks > out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) > now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; > in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... > > (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) > > ************ ********* ********* ** > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, david dobbs <tmft567@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > Listees, > > We lost three sailors last night. Full details are not yet > known, but the basics of the story are that a J-35 left Monroe Harbor > last evening around 6pm, in VERY bad conditions, gale warnings, over > 25 knots NE winds, over 6 feet waves with short intervals. They > sailed to the Calumet Harbor breakwater, some 11 miles. While trying > to take down the sails a crewmember went overboard. The boat sent a > Mayday and began an attempt to recover the crew. They may have been > capsized by the waves, but ended up being crushed on the breakwall. > They were in the water about 45 minutes or so, and only one > survived. They were all wearing PFDs. The water temp was 58 degrees. > > They were on their way to the boatyard for winter storage. They > were not novices, the boat had done the Chicago-Mackinac race this > year. > > In Chicago, in October, you pay very close attention to the > Lake. It's been blowing from the NE for 3 days and you pay attention > to that. > > I don't know why these guys made the decision they did, maybe we > will find out from the survivor, but you can always reschedule your > haulout, or whatever. It can always wait. It's not worth a life. > Much less three. > > I had a personal experience once, when I was very green, and I > made some decisions that I shouldn't have made, and was saved by some > powerboaters. I became really conservative about safety, and am to > this day. > > Just remember, as Jerry Powlas says, sailing is risky business, > and you have a responsibility as an owner/captain toward your crew > and ship. > > > > Regards, > > David Dobbs > > Cal29 411 > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >

Randy Alcorn wrote: > > I can go on as you can tell, Randy: I am glad you _do_ go on and welcome anything more you want to add. Most of us are lucky that we can learn from your experience and not by doing it ourselves. Few of us will need to know this stuff (luckily) but we are all well advised to know it in case we are one of the few. I recall the first time I accidentally capsized my kayak in Feb. in water temps in the 30s, and my first thought was "oh sh__, I'm one of those guys you read about in the paper!" I was prepared (wetsuit, PFD) and so it turned out OK, but it did teach that bad things can happen to me and they usually happen very quickly. By reading accounts like yours, we can walk through things mentally and be a bit better prepared to react properly. Chris Campbell >

Thank you Fiver, I remember it was you and others who helped me through this. Randy slickbutfoxbuger <fi… [at] aol.com> wrote: i would offer my thanks, Randy, but to tell the truth, i don't think i have earned the right, yet; yea, i been over the side lots of times; a few even at great risk to life in very bad conditions. but none at sea like you, Randy. and that is why i Know Your advice is Tops! not just advice, but more like Fact Really. i think like you do; the USCG requirements are only a *Minimum Start*. and never to be thought of as a safe-maxim end- point for safety gear, or education level. i have even thought about adding *kick-out panel's* to both sides of the cock-pit aft where i am removing the seats for my steering well on BB-54; this so i can get a *MOB* back aboard. i think that people who have never had the experience of finding themselves in the water just can't conceive of the disorientation and then helplessness that cold does bring. the fact that absolutely everything is above you, and therefor out of your reach and sight. and even if you could reach it, water is like space; to reach up is to sink down. for every action there is an reverse action because you are floating, not standing on land anymore. and because you are too tuckered out to keep your self afloat, it's only your PFD that is doing the job. so to put your hand up to wave, or grasp something, your nose goes under. and then if you hadn't panic, you will..... :)(: i sure wish i could talk with you in person, Randy. fiver..... ************************* --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have to add my learning experience to this. > > Nov 11, will be a year since I went overboard. I was in a race and something broke sending me into the water. The wind was blowing in excess of 35 kts and waves were 12-14, the skipper lost me after the second wave went past. > > The water temp in upper SOCAL is 58 degrees, I was in the water for 35 minutes. With everything I had on (Pretty sailing garb) I was stage II hypothermia. (Not thinking straight and shaking uncontrollably) > > Recently I was able to do a presentation at the local yacht club and got to share my experience. I was surprised at the people who shared stories as well that everyone could draw from. > > I would like to add what I have learned since. > > I hope I don't forget anything. > > We all, everyone, skippers and crew have a responsibility to practice good seamanship. Rule number 1; stay on the boat, Keep your crew on the boat and as skippers, get everyone back on the boat. Rule number 2; get everyone home safe. > > I will tell you what I have done since and it does not add thousands of dollars to my sailing. > > Like Fiver said. The boats went right by me and never heard my whistle. They did not see me waving or even really look for me. They knew were they were going and looked for me in the wrong place. 1000 yards from where I was. Even the Helo gave up on me till someone on the oil rig radioed and pointed out the last time they saw me I was over there, not over here. > > I can go on as you can tell, > > Fit your PFD, I wore mine with some different clothing than the last time and my PFD was up around my face and the water was over my nose and I was choking. Always make sure it fits properly. Blow it up manually if you have to, to see what I am talking about. > > If you have a Auto PFD, replace the cylinder and aspirin every year. It has to work the first time. > > Sign into UK Halsey and watch their COB videos. It shows you how to go back and pick someone up. > > Type in Crew overboard symposium, it gives a lot of info on equipment you can use. > > I worked with John Rousminere on my presentation. They gave me a lot of info. > > Get a throw bag with 75 feet of rope and learn how to throw it at someone. Time is everything and a throw bag covers a lot of water. > > Have a Man or Crew overboard pole and horseshoe or similar floating device ready at all times. PHRF rules state you only need one for overnight races. > > "Hello! We are talking about friends and family here. People we love to be around!!!" > > A lot of racers in SOCAL only have a life sling on their boats. To me, they only aide getting the person back on board vice locating someone. > > I added a handheld waterproof (now they float) radio to my man overboard pole and a flare and smoke kit. I also keep these in my pocket. > > I wear my kayaking Simi dry gear when it is cold, it keeps most of the water out. I wear polar fleece gear under that. My outer shell is breathable. At night I wear a Kayaking PFD with radio and flares in the pockets. > > I am a kayaker as well as a sailor so I have all the stuff at hand. See Kokatat or NRS kayaking gear. It is cheaaper than stuff with sailing on it. > > Getting someone back on board is something none of us ever think about but is just as hard and locating someone. > > I wish I could come to everyone's clubs and share my story. I felt it was a good presentation and I got a lot of good feed back. > > Thank you for letting me share! > > > Randy > > CAL 2-29 > Out Patient > Channel Islands Ca > > John Courter <cal40john@...> wrote: > > Not that I actually own any of the high tech stuff, but I have done some research as I think about what I want to buy beyond the Grundig foulies and Stearns Type III that I own. > > I used to think that the inflatables were another thing to maintain and perhaps to fail at a bad time, but I discovered that the inflatables have as much floatation as a type I lifejacket. Type II, and III have less floatation, add some waves and you could be in trouble. Type II and III are for near shore use. My guess is float coats have about as much buoyancy as a type III. > > http://www.boatus.com/foundation/Findings/Inflatablepfd.htm > > Inflatables under coats. A not so amusing anecdote from a book I have on the Sidney Hobart race that had the bad storm. Foredeck crew disappears under solid green water on the foredeck. Water leaves deck, foredeck crew is still there, but the rest of the crew sees that he is writhing about on the deck. They then observe him pull out his knife and start to stab himself in the chest. He was wearing his inflatable under his foulies, the water activated his vest. He couldn't breathe as it was too tight, problem resolved by deflating the vest. > > Foulies, one pieces or whatever bulky clothing can contain enough water to make swimming near impossible, but water is neutrally buoyant it won't pull you down, you just can't swim well enough to keep your head out which results in the same ending for you. The point is you need a life jacket with any bulky clothing that limits your swimming ability, not just for one pieces. > > Mustang makes a one piece worksuit with floatation that is almost as good as their survival suit for warmth in the water. > http://www.mustangsurvival.com/resources/documentation/catalogs/mustan g_gsa_catalog.pdf > > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: slickbutfoxbuger <fiverhrairoo@...> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 3:47:35 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fwd: Sailing is a Risk (fiver's thought's) > > heaven help anyone overboard; > > let-a-lone in rough, cold, and or less-than tropical dock-side > sort of conditions. i suppose when i think about it, sailing can be > dangerous. but it need not be, and i see that as a very *Important* > distention! > > fiver recently posted a short story of a sailing adventure she > had on the Puget Sound aboard *Nemesis* (Cal 3-30), with Fred Haas > (Owner & Capt.). at the Skipper's meeting before that days race, i > took note of the *PFD's* the different people had worn to the meeting > (required). mostly i think *inflatable* as they were hidden under > jackets. > i thought to myself; Ok, not my first choice. not in these cold- > ass waters. as much to my surprise i had the only *float-coat* in > the bunch. and i'd have had a small inflatable under that if i had > the money too! one of those belt type. but first i need to get a par > of CG approved overalls if i am going to keep sailing in the winter. > after all, it's not just keeling your head above water that counts > in the north. the cold water will kill your ass pretty bloody fast > too! and i would rather be too hot while i am sailing than too cold > while i am swimming. this as one is for fun, and the other is for > life. > but just the same, a couple of the fellows at the meeting had on > real pretty (matching) red bad weather sailing suits. the sort that > if one float-tests, will simply fill-up with water and sink like a > sub. but i must say, they sure looked pretty! probable cost more than > i paid for BB-54. but hay, they must have had some sort of inflatable > under it all (for all the good that would have done them). each to > their own, right. i am just using this as an example. for all i know > the red suits may blow-up like the one Woody Allen wore in that old > movie where the lady road him across the lake...... > > so now that i have this nice bomber-style float-coat and matching > floating pants/coveralls; what if anything should i put in the > pockets? will, a real good cutting instrument of some sort. if i go > in the drink, i may need to cut myself free of something. and if > there is an emergency onboard, i may need to cut a line, or even a > halyard. such as in a blow-down. next a whistle, but not just one. i > would also get a gas-powered min-horn and stick that i a pocket too! > i have heard a story or two of boats hearing a whistle and not being > able to tell where it's coming from. or a person whistling at a boat > and the boat not hearing them. so next it's the best auto-strobe > light i can find. that goes on the outside. and then a good (small) > led water-proof led style flash-light for the pocket. and then the > most important point, if nothing else; put your damn cell-phone in a > zip-lock plastic bag and stuff that in a pocket. you just never > know...... > Oh, and if they ever invent a orange instant-inflatable balloon > on a string, i'll get one of them too! > > now, start thinking about how the hell you are going to get out > of the water again. it just mite be a bigger problem than finding you > after you fall in you know. like last Saturday with Capt. Fred and i. > if fiver had gone for a swim, how the hell was Fred going to get me > out of the water once He me again? if He ever found me in that swell > and wight-cap. it sure as hell wasn't likely that i was going to be > of any help after even 5 or 10 minutes in Puget Sound. given that, > what should been His first move, call the CG or go looking? it's > certain He would not have been able to keep an eye on me and handle > *Nemesis* at the same time. > you all want to know the truth.... > i have been around enough that i knew going out that day. > if i had gone for a swim, i was dead the moment i hit the water. not > off a sailboat.... .. > > there are things that the seaman can do to improve his or her > survivability in the water. and i do all of those things i can. but > when it comes right down to it, experience at sea makes all the > difference in the world. that and the understanding that every part > of that boat or ship is *Expendable* in the pursuit of safety. that > means that if someone goes over the side; i don't take time to get > the sail down. cut the bloody halyards, get the engine started and > get that boat back to that person. i need a line; Wow, there is a jib > sheet! now i got a line!!!! bill me for it..... if i can't get that > person on board, tie a line around me and i'll go in and get em. then > at lest we both got a line tied around us. if your near-shore, and > you can't get them aboard, tie on to them and drag them to the shore. > what is worth more, your boat or the life; you figure it out budds. > where i come from, we don't leave a body to die alone. i never have, > nor will i ever. i couldn't live with myself...... . > > so what does all of this have to do with the tragic loss of the > J-35 and her crew; well, beside the fact that every crew member has a > responsibility to them selves to come aboard equipped and ready for > his or her own personal safety. and with the guts to insist on it! i > also feel that modern sailboats need to be outfitted for safety. > something that i am sad to say they are not today. take a simple > thing like the propeller. the feathering prop may be fine for a lake > or up some small river. but it sure as hell isn't fine for place's > where one may encounter heavy weather. i don't see how any boat can > be expected to recover a man-over-board if the ship can't maneuver in > the conditions under which it is likely to be out in when the man is > lost in. but then what racer is going to hang a good high-thrust 3 or > 4 blade screw under his tail unless the rules require all boats to do > so? it's not unlike banning chemical weapons, isn't it. and then > there is that cock-pit full of tiller that all of you sailors seem to > just love so much. as far as i am concerned, it's bloody dangerous! > lets ban the tiller in all boats above a given length and or weight. > that way everyone will be playing with the same toys. and if not > banning the tiller, then require the cock-pit to be twice the length > of the tiller. > > these are just two simple observations that i have held for a > long time. one of which was confirmed Saturday. but maybe people have > gotten so used to boats the way they exist now that change is > unthinkable. it isn't you know. just try coloring out of the box once > in a while, or does it take the loss of a few more J-35's...... > > fiver, > Master of The "BB-54" > one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks > out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) > now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; > in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... > > (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) > > ************ ********* ********* ** > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, david dobbs <tmft567@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > Listees, > > We lost three sailors last night. Full details are not yet > known, but the basics of the story are that a J-35 left Monroe Harbor > last evening around 6pm, in VERY bad conditions, gale warnings, over > 25 knots NE winds, over 6 feet waves with short intervals. They > sailed to the Calumet Harbor breakwater, some 11 miles. While trying > to take down the sails a crewmember went overboard. The boat sent a > Mayday and began an attempt to recover the crew. They may have been > capsized by the waves, but ended up being crushed on the breakwall. > They were in the water about 45 minutes or so, and only one > survived. They were all wearing PFDs. The water temp was 58 degrees. > > They were on their way to the boatyard for winter storage. They > were not novices, the boat had done the Chicago-Mackinac race this > year. > > In Chicago, in October, you pay very close attention to the > Lake. It's been blowing from the NE for 3 days and you pay attention > to that. > > I don't know why these guys made the decision they did, maybe we > will find out from the survivor, but you can always reschedule your > haulout, or whatever. It can always wait. It's not worth a life. > Much less three. > > I had a personal experience once, when I was very green, and I > made some decisions that I shouldn't have made, and was saved by some > powerboaters. I became really conservative about safety, and am to > this day. > > Just remember, as Jerry Powlas says, sailing is risky business, > and you have a responsibility as an owner/captain toward your crew > and ship. > > > > Regards, > > David Dobbs > > Cal29 411 > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Chris, Thank you! And everyone thank you as well. I know we have new members since last year so I have to get my arms around my thoughts again. Let me add a couple of things. Skippers and crew need to practice the figure 8 and short stop, That will get you back to someone quickly. I also forgot to mention I added a mirror to my vest as well. That still bothers me, boats were less than 40 ft away and no one heard or saw me. I am going to rewrite all this and repost it so it is not so confusing. I remember someone asking me what I recommend and it has been on my mind since. I came up with a list of things and will add it soonest. I would work with the clubs if possible to share what I have learned. The clubs around here have started a practice day. I saw the NOOD has a MOB regatta. Randy Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: Randy Alcorn wrote: I can go on as you can tell, Randy: I am glad you do go on and welcome anything more you want to add. Most of us are lucky that we can learn from your experience and not by doing it ourselves. Few of us will need to know this stuff (luckily) but we are all well advised to know it in case we are one of the few. I recall the first time I accidentally capsized my kayak in Feb. in water temps in the 30s, and my first thought was "oh sh__, I'm one of those guys you read about in the paper!" I was prepared (wetsuit, PFD) and so it turned out OK, but it did teach that bad things can happen to me and they usually happen very quickly. By reading accounts like yours, we can walk through things mentally and be a bit better prepared to react properly. Chris Campbell __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Randy, don't forget the police type whistle and small light. Someone should make a high intensity LED flashlight, waterproof. Ha ha and now that I thought of that, one of them laser pointers would be a good idea!! OK, what about a mini strobe? On overnighter races we're supposed to have the MOB pole, the ring buoy, and the floating strobe light all tied together ready to toss. I remember doing it for a few races and then forgetting to get it all together for succeeding ones. Maybe it's because the strobe light bracket kept getting mangled.. Added encouragement to keep everyone from falling off the boat! Oh course I'm a bit of a windbag, since I've never worn a PFD even when single handing, or going forward with the tiller lashed with a Davis Tillertamer to man handle the whisker pole. Ok, I'm nuts! OK I take that back, I have worn PFD's, Type I's, during abandon ship drills on cruise ships, way kuel! Now, there's another technique that involves using a jib sheet and a winch to get some one back on board, but I'm not sure how it works. Oh yes and some method of rolling a MOB in a sail and hoisting them up with the halyard. That would be more secure than trying to balance your feet on a line. Then there's the fish scoop technique where you scoop up the MOB like a big sword fish and haul them out to be measured and weighed. Oh yes, serioulsy, I'm more in favor of the throw tiller over immediately method of returning to the MOB than the figure 8 (hmm figure 8, now how does that go again? duh!), the closer you stay to the MOB the less likely you'll lose sight of them, and yes, every second counts! Jerry --- On Tue, 10/30/07, Randy Alcorn <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Randy Alcorn <sa… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailing is a Risk (Randy's thought's) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007, 9:22 PM Chris, Thank you! And everyone thank you as well. I know we have new members since last year so I have to get my arms around my thoughts again. Let me add a couple of things. Skippers and crew need to practice the figure 8 and short stop, That will get you back to someone quickly. I also forgot to mention I added a mirror to my vest as well. That still bothers me, boats were less than 40 ft away and no one heard or saw me. I am going to rewrite all this and repost it so it is not so confusing. I remember someone asking me what I recommend and it has been on my mind since. I came up with a list of things and will add it soonest. I would work with the clubs if possible to share what I have learned. The clubs around here have started a practice day. I saw the NOOD has a MOB regatta. Randy Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> wrote: Randy Alcorn wrote: I can go on as you can tell, Randy: I am glad you do go on and welcome anything more you want to add. Most of us are lucky that we can learn from your experience and not by doing it ourselves. Few of us will need to know this stuff (luckily) but we are all well advised to know it in case we are one of the few. I recall the first time I accidentally capsized my kayak in Feb. in water temps in the 30s, and my first thought was "oh sh__, I'm one of those guys you read about in the paper!" I was prepared (wetsuit, PFD) and so it turned out OK, but it did teach that bad things can happen to me and they usually happen very quickly. By reading accounts like yours, we can walk through things mentally and be a bit better prepared to react properly. Chris Campbell ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com

Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > Oh course I'm a bit of a windbag, since I've never worn a PFD even > when single handing, or going forward with the tiller lashed with a > Davis Tillertamer to man handle the whisker pole. Ok, I'm nuts! Yeah, you're nuts, at least now that we've got useful inflatable PFDs. I used to be cavalier about these things until some instruction in water safety and MOB issues with time in a pool (geez, if I can't do anything in heated, calm pool water, how about cold, rough Lake Michigan water?) and then there was my broach & capsize in the kayak. Now I wear that inflatable any time I'm single-handing. And we haven't even started to talk about how you get back aboard your boat if you're single-handing and if you manage to get back to it. > > > Now, there's another technique that involves using a jib sheet and a > winch to get some one back on board, but I'm not sure how it works. Oh > yes and some method of rolling a MOB in a sail and hoisting them up > with the halyard. That would be more secure than trying to balance > your feet on a line. The more complex these are the less likely they're going to work well when somebody has gone over in bad conditions. I'm wondering how well a person can be lifted with a halyard via the integral harness in the inflatable PFDs. It would be sort of like picking up the dog by the handle on the dog PFDs. It would be another reason for putting that PFD on. Chris Campbell

i got to tell ya; getting a guy into a boat at sea or on any open water after he's been in for more then a few minutes....... well, you mite as well figure on, or practice with, a 6 foot 250 lb barely floating bag of soggy fish-guts. and figure out really quick that this bag of guts isn't going to give you any help. and this comes from experience...... my Brother and i pulled this guy out of the Columbia River one day; he had gone over the bow of his 20' sailboat. and had been hanging onto the bow-line that was tied to the bow-eye. it was maybe 10 or 15 minutes from the time the people saw him go over and run-over to tell my little Brother to get me and then we got my 13' boat and got out there in the white caps and grabbed him. we were both in high school at the time i think, but still it took a bit too figure out just how, after we hooked the guys arms over the gunnl-rail, we were going to get the rest of this water-logged sack of crap into the boat. i mean, it was all he could do to just breath; we had to hold him hooked over the rail or he would have just slipped back into the drink like a slimy fish. and the sides of that boat of mine were only 2' high from the bottom, and maybe a 1' or less out of the water with us and the guy hanging on there. when we finely got him in; my Brother were talking about it the last time i called Him; He said the guy just lay there in the bulge most all the way back to his moorage. i had to go aboard the sailboat and get his kid safely under control, then sail it back for him. so i didn't see the guy until i sailed in, and by then he was sort-of walking.... with the help of another friend that is.... when the USCG practices; they don't toss a real guy over the side. though i think their dummy floats a bit high. but the point is that no one in the water is going to be of any help in their own rescue. even on Navy Ships; there are always at lest one two trained rescue- swimmers for every 100 or so sailors. there's no time to put a boat over the side, even if they had a boat. if they can get close to the guy, the swimmer will go after him. that's the only chance he's got unless they are working with a chopper..... i honestly think it's the same for most anyone in the water where there is no small boat right there...... fiver ************************** --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > > > > Oh course I'm a bit of a windbag, since I've never worn a PFD even > > when single handing, or going forward with the tiller lashed with a > > Davis Tillertamer to man handle the whisker pole. Ok, I'm nuts! > > > > > > Yeah, you're nuts, at least now that we've got useful inflatable PFDs. > I used to be cavalier about these things until some instruction in water > safety and MOB issues with time in a pool (geez, if I can't do anything > in heated, calm pool water, how about cold, rough Lake Michigan water?) > and then there was my broach & capsize in the kayak. Now I wear that > inflatable any time I'm single-handing. And we haven't even started to > talk about how you get back aboard your boat if you're single- handing > and if you manage to get back to it. > > > > > > Now, there's another technique that involves using a jib sheet and a > > winch to get some one back on board, but I'm not sure how it works. Oh > > yes and some method of rolling a MOB in a sail and hoisting them up > > with the halyard. That would be more secure than trying to balance > > your feet on a line. > > > > > > > The more complex these are the less likely they're going to work well > when somebody has gone over in bad conditions. I'm wondering how well a > person can be lifted with a halyard via the integral harness in the > inflatable PFDs. It would be sort of like picking up the dog by the > handle on the dog PFDs. It would be another reason for putting that PFD on. > > Chris Campbell >

These are free resources online about "naval history." I am sure there are many others of interest, too. Check out these free resources online from Google Books: http://www.google.com/books?q=+subject:%22+Naval+history+%22&as_brr=3&rview= 1

Chris, I'm working on my new device, it's called a recovery submersible. Wearing this there will be no need to stay near the surface. It emits a sonar blip so people using a depth finder can home in on you, determine your location just so everyone know's you're ok. With no need to surface you simply walk back to shore. Nothing could be simpler, eh? Now tell me I'm nuts? Next thing people will say is I must have OD'd while watching the Yellow Submarine forty years ago, and never quite recovered. OK, OK, after being blown behind a mountain in 30 mph of wind, getting rotored upside down and crashing head first into the side of a mountain with a hang glider, and getting a helicopter ride to the hospital, with a compound fractured arm and a broken neck I'm a little jaded. Jerry --- On Wed, 10/31/07, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Recovery tactics, was:Sailing is a Risk (Randy's thought's) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007, 5:53 AM Gerald Sobel wrote: Oh course I'm a bit of a windbag, since I've never worn a PFD even when single handing, or going forward with the tiller lashed with a Davis Tillertamer to man handle the whisker pole. Ok, I'm nuts! Yeah, you're nuts, at least now that we've got useful inflatable PFDs. I used to be cavalier about these things until some instruction in water safety and MOB issues with time in a pool (geez, if I can't do anything in heated, calm pool water, how about cold, rough Lake Michigan water?) and then there was my broach & capsize in the kayak. Now I wear that inflatable any time I'm single-handing. And we haven't even started to talk about how you get back aboard your boat if you're single-handing and if you manage to get back to it. Now, there's another technique that involves using a jib sheet and a winch to get some one back on board, but I'm not sure how it works. Oh yes and some method of rolling a MOB in a sail and hoisting them up with the halyard. That would be more secure than trying to balance your feet on a line. The more complex these are the less likely they're going to work well when somebody has gone over in bad conditions. I'm wondering how well a person can be lifted with a halyard via the integral harness in the inflatable PFDs. It would be sort of like picking up the dog by the handle on the dog PFDs. It would be another reason for putting that PFD on. Chris Campbell