Great Lakes storm

Listmates: My town, Traverse City, MI, is on Grand Traverse Bay of Lake Michigan. At this time of year, we often see big lake freighters anchored in our bay to seek refuge from storms out on the lake. Today as I drove to some business meetings, I notice a big presence in the east arm of our bay--the 630 foot /David Z.,/ formerly /David Z. Norton./ You can imagine what it must be like out on the lake if the 630-foot boats don't want to be out there. The boat was still there when I went past at about 4:15 p.m. Maybe it's not so bad that my Cal 20 is sitting on her trailer. It reminds me of the story of Ted Turner, who sailed in a Chicago-Mackinaw race back in the 70s or so. The weather looked a bit bad so a reporter asked him if he were worried. He puffed himself up and gave a little lecture about his years of ocean racing experience and knowing all about big oceans and not being the least bit worried about these little lakes. Well, it was a tough race, with lots of dismastings and other casualties. At the other end, he said "I hereby withdraw any comments I may previously have made about inland sailing" or something to that effect. Chris Campbell

On Thursday 29 November 2007 05:01:39 pm Chris Campbell wrote: > Listmates: > > My town, Traverse City, MI, is on Grand Traverse Bay of Lake Michigan. Greets Chris: I've sailed out of Traverse Bay once. It was the first time ever on a modern sailboat, 32 Beneteau charter vessel, since my youth and skippered by a relative who had a bareboat license. Scary things these licenses as I was about to find out. Once out of the harbor the wind kicked up to 40knots plus and we were on our way to Mackinaw. This thing popped around like a cork in bathtub. Said skipper went below decks and came up with the Annapolis guide to master seamanship while I was pretending to hold on to the wheel..Jaw dropped immediately. Not a good sign. Well it took us three days of port hopping just to get to Charleveux and my knees never stopped knocking from the minute we left dockside. The only time they settled down was when we were tied up again and a few beers later. So we decided to go to the movies in Charleveux just to relax one night and to wait out the small craft warnings as said skipper thought this was all great sport. The only friggen movie playing was "The Perfect Storm". There was absolutely no friggen way I was gonna see that movie as my knees had not recovered. The posters they sell in the tourist shops and display in the windows of the lighthouse at the harbor entrance in the middle of a fall storm is enough to scare the living crap outta any sane human being. No need to reinforce it with a movie and a skipper who might have well have won his license at the local carnival. All I could think of was the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald and the tune just kept playing in my head over and over and over. Man it was good to get home in one piece. The scariest part was the kids never even thought they were in any danger. Water temp was a cool 50 degree's f as it was late May, shoulder season, meaning cheap rates but hypothermic conditions should anyone go over the side. My problem was I couldn't bail out of the trip as if anything were to have happened to the kids, my sister would never have forgiven me. Quite a dilemma, an unseasoned skipper, a novice crew and continuouse small craft warnings and a schedule. Trying to keep a schedule is always a recipe for disaster or so I tried to convince the skipper. No luck on that front either. I've been on Lakes Superior, Michigan, Georgian Bay, Lake Huron, Erie and Ontario. In my experience the worst was Michigan but others in the know will tell you that Superior is far worse especially in the fall. This spring we delivered my friends new old boat out of Vermillion Ohio destined for St. Catherines ON. On the third day out and not making Cleveland we decided to have the boat shipped to St. Cits as fighting a head wind of 30 plus knots and 12-15 foot waves zapped the energy out of this older team. Weather forcast was for more of the same due to some Tornado in the central States that was really messing with the weather. Easterlies for 5 days and more of the same for the next five days. Standard weather is from the West. always,.except on the day we left harbor. While on a schedule we simply deferred it. Friend is a seasoned skipper and usually does not let a schedule deterimine his routing. So we headed over to the CYC and had the boat shipped back to Canada for what we considered was a lot of money. However everyone was safe including the boat. The issue on Lake Erie is not the wave height rather the frequency. Its a very shallow lake. Locals referr to them as square waves to which I can attest too. In a 75 Ericson 35 MKII we typically crested two waves at 12-15 ft height with the third wave covering the bow as we slid down the second. At 6-7 knots boat speed and winds gusting from 25-45 knots this was fun for a few hrs but after that it got brutal as you fight a head wind and the contents of your stomach at the same time. The Great Lakes indeed can be brutal at times. "Beware of the gales of November" ...... Gordon Lightfoot. Regards /ch

Lake Erie sailing can be a beautiful experience or it can be the most frightening adventure you've ever had. The shallow water not only makes for steep short period waves, but they come up fast and often in unexpected directions. Lake Erie also has one other interesting property called a seiche (sp?) when the wind comes up strong out of the southwest the water builds up on the Buffalo shore. Last year about this time the wind came up for half a day and the water level rose nearly 10 feet in the marina where I keep my boat in the summer. With fixed docks this put the water above the shore power boxes, fortunately I was on the hard so no harm was done. Twenty years ago I was racing my Cal25 on a day when the 170 was used for half of the race, it was probably a good 150 day. At the weather mark we popped the chute and of course it started to pipe up. Being a coward at heart, when the Canadian coast guard called for strong winds I called for the chute to come down and the 130 to be hoisted. Within five minutes the wind hit 53 knots on the anemometer of the boat next to me and a peak gust of 78 was recorded at the coast guard station, I can tell you that a Cal 25 will plane in these conditions, we had a bow wave that came back to the companionway and cleared the deck. It was a great ride until the waves came up and we had to round the leeward mark. With the prevailing winds being straight into Buffalo more than one boat has been driven into the breakwall when they venture out of the harbor with too much bravado and too little experience. These Lakes can be nasty! _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris H Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Great Lakes storm On Thursday 29 November 2007 05:01:39 pm Chris Campbell wrote: > Listmates: > > My town, Traverse City, MI, is on Grand Traverse Bay of Lake Michigan. Greets Chris: I've sailed out of Traverse Bay once. It was the first time ever on a modern sailboat, 32 Beneteau charter vessel, since my youth and skippered by a relative who had a bareboat license. Scary things these licenses as I was about to find out. Once out of the harbor the wind kicked up to 40knots plus and we were on our way to Mackinaw. This thing popped around like a cork in bathtub. Said skipper went below decks and came up with the Annapolis guide to master seamanship while I was pretending to hold on to the wheel..Jaw dropped immediately. Not a good sign. Well it took us three days of port hopping just to get to Charleveux and my knees never stopped knocking from the minute we left dockside. The only time they settled down was when we were tied up again and a few beers later. So we decided to go to the movies in Charleveux just to relax one night and to wait out the small craft warnings as said skipper thought this was all great sport. The only friggen movie playing was "The Perfect Storm". There was absolutely no friggen way I was gonna see that movie as my knees had not recovered. The posters they sell in the tourist shops and display in the windows of the lighthouse at the harbor entrance in the middle of a fall storm is enough to scare the living crap outta any sane human being. No need to reinforce it with a movie and a skipper who might have well have won his license at the local carnival. All I could think of was the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald and the tune just kept playing in my head over and over and over. Man it was good to get home in one piece. The scariest part was the kids never even thought they were in any danger. Water temp was a cool 50 degree's f as it was late May, shoulder season, meaning cheap rates but hypothermic conditions should anyone go over the side. My problem was I couldn't bail out of the trip as if anything were to have happened to the kids, my sister would never have forgiven me. Quite a dilemma, an unseasoned skipper, a novice crew and continuouse small craft warnings and a schedule. Trying to keep a schedule is always a recipe for disaster or so I tried to convince the skipper. No luck on that front either. I've been on Lakes Superior, Michigan, Georgian Bay, Lake Huron, Erie and Ontario. In my experience the worst was Michigan but others in the know will tell you that Superior is far worse especially in the fall. This spring we delivered my friends new old boat out of Vermillion Ohio destined for St. Catherines ON. On the third day out and not making Cleveland we decided to have the boat shipped to St. Cits as fighting a head wind of 30 plus knots and 12-15 foot waves zapped the energy out of this older team. Weather forcast was for more of the same due to some Tornado in the central States that was really messing with the weather. Easterlies for 5 days and more of the same for the next five days. Standard weather is from the West. always,.except on the day we left harbor. While on a schedule we simply deferred it. Friend is a seasoned skipper and usually does not let a schedule deterimine his routing. So we headed over to the CYC and had the boat shipped back to Canada for what we considered was a lot of money. However everyone was safe including the boat. The issue on Lake Erie is not the wave height rather the frequency. Its a very shallow lake. Locals referr to them as square waves to which I can attest too. In a 75 Ericson 35 MKII we typically crested two waves at 12-15 ft height with the third wave covering the bow as we slid down the second. At 6-7 knots boat speed and winds gusting from 25-45 knots this was fun for a few hrs but after that it got brutal as you fight a head wind and the contents of your stomach at the same time. The Great Lakes indeed can be brutal at times. "Beware of the gales of November" ...... Gordon Lightfoot. Regards /ch

Chris H wrote: > > ...skippered by a > relative who had a bareboat license. Scary things these licenses as I was > about to find out. Once out of the harbor the wind kicked up to > 40knots plus > and we were on our way to Mackinaw. This thing popped around like a > cork in > bathtub. Said skipper went below decks and came up with the Annapolis > guide > to master seamanship while I was pretending to hold on to the wheel.. > The lesson here is that experience is preferred to books and lectures, at least when it comes to sailing. I'm sure you appreciate that now. > Well it took us three days of port hopping just to get to Charleveux > My friends at Charlevoix would request a correction. The problem is that in Michigan we pronounce it incorrectly, from the French perspective. "Char-le-/voy/." But it's a very nice place. > > > > I've been on Lakes Superior, Michigan, Georgian Bay, Lake Huron, Erie and > Ontario. In my experience the worst was Michigan but others in the > know will > tell you that Superior is far worse especially in the fall. > Lake Michigan suffers from a lack of natural safe harbors. Many of the ports are at river mouths. BY the 20th century most were improved with breakwaters and channels, but trying to sail into a narrow channel with breakwaters extending out can be nerve-wracking in a good blow. The other lakes tend to have more natural harbors. > > > > > The issue on Lake Erie is not the wave height rather the frequency. > Its a very > shallow lake. Locals referr to them as square waves to which I can attest > too. In a 75 Ericson 35 MKII we typically crested two waves at 12-15 ft > height with the third wave covering the bow as we slid down the second. > My other boat lives on Michigan's Saginaw Bay, the big bay on the east side of the lower peninsula. It's just like Lake Erie--big, shallow, and square-waved. It really hurts boat speed and increases the physical action to be banging into those short-period waves. > > "Beware of the gales of November" ...... Gordon Lightfoot. > The boat I saw yesterday was the /Earl W./, formerly /Earl W. Oglebay/, according to today's newspaper. The boat was a fleetmate of the /Edmund Fitzgerald/, but shorter at 630 feet (designed to get into the river at Cleveland) and newer (1973). Perhaps it was fleet knowledge that drove /Earl W./ into refuge here. Chris Campbell

On Friday 30 November 2007 09:34:58 am Chris Campbell wrote: > The lesson here is that experience is preferred to books and lectures, > at least when it comes to sailing. I'm sure you appreciate that now. More then you can imagine. I now have a personal skipper rating system that I keep to myself of course and designed for one reason only, to keep my old and not so skinny butt safe and dry. On the same trip I kept my eye on a cutter rigged something probably a larger Alberg or something of similar lines and vintage as she was way off in the distance.(no glasses on this trip) She moved along with grace and confidence running a full set of sails, crew moving easily from rale to rale. It was a joy to see what appeared as an older skipper braced along the helm taking this vessel through its paces. It was a good stress releaser knowing that someone else was out (and in VHFradio distance) who actually knew what they were doing. > My friends at Charlevoix would request a correction. The problem is > that in Michigan we pronounce it incorrectly, from the French > perspective. "Char-le-/voy/." But it's a very nice place. Yes absolutely. My apologies to your friends in Charlevoix. What a gorgeouse harbor, at least when I was there. Its on my list of must visit again places as I like to see how things change over the years. Unfortunately I've never made it back ...yet. > > "Beware of the gales of November" ...... Gordon Lightfoot. > > The boat I saw yesterday was the /Earl W./, formerly /Earl W. Oglebay/, > according to today's newspaper. The boat was a fleetmate of the /Edmund > Fitzgerald/, but shorter at 630 feet (designed to get into the river at > Cleveland) and newer (1973). Perhaps it was fleet knowledge that drove > /Earl W./ into refuge here. Im sure it was, as it was rather big news on the Canadian side when the EFG went down as it was portrayed a testament to the power of the Great Lakes. No one was ever charged if I remember correctly. Growing up in Hamilton ON a major inland port thanks to the steel mills and where "lakers" were a daily occurrence this was a really big news as I remember it, I was in University at the time and Lake Ontario was our backyard. We knew most of the warning signs and weather patterns. After this event we all were a lot more cautious and have remained so to this day. regards /ch

Chris H wrote: > > On the same trip I kept my eye on a cutter rigged something probably > a larger Alberg or something of similar lines and vintage as she was > way off > in the distance.(no glasses on this trip) She moved along with grace and > confidence running a full set of sails, crew moving easily from rale > to rale. > It was a joy to see what appeared as an older skipper braced along the > helm > taking this vessel through its paces. It was a good stress releaser > knowing > that someone else was out (and in VHFradio distance) who actually knew > what > they were doing. > Carl Alberg's boats didn't always round the buoys first when racing but they have a good reputation for being comfortable when the weather is not cooperating. > > > > My friends at Charlevoix would request a correction. The problem is > > that in Michigan we pronounce it incorrectly, from the French > > perspective. "Char-le-/voy/." But it's a very nice place. > > Yes absolutely. My apologies to your friends in Charlevoix. What a > gorgeouse > harbor, at least when I was there. Its on my list of must visit again > places > as I like to see how things change over the years. Unfortunately I've > never > made it back ...yet. > The northern half of Lake Michigan has many nice little port cities on both the Michigan and the Wisconsin sides of the lake. The bad weather days are far outweighed by much more beautiful cruising weather in the summer. Storms are few and typically short-lived. The port communities are typically old commercial shipping & fishing ports that are now reorienting themselves toward tourism. If you want to extend a cruise, you can sail through the Straits of Mackinaw, under our elegant bridge, and into Lake Huron where the North Channel, one of the world's prettiest areas, is available for cruising. Great Lakes people know all about this but it's a well-kept secret from the rest of the world. Michigan sits in the middle of this great treasure of sailing waters; what a wonderful place to live. Chris Campbell > > > . > > >

John, Seiches are common on Lake Michigan, usually only a couple of feet or so, but occasionally much larger. Back in 1958 a number of fishermen were drowned, some never found, while fishing on Montrose Pier in Chicago. A huge seiche formed and took them out to lake. My own experience is that we had a large seiche one June and the boats were above the level of the parking lot and the cars in the lot were submerged, and ruined. Weird stuff. I have some pictures somewhere, I'll try to find them and post. Explain that to your insurance agent! Regards, David Dobbs, Cal29 411 John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Lake Erie sailing can be a beautiful experience or it can be the most frightening adventure you've ever had. The shallow water not only makes for steep short period waves, but they come up fast and often in unexpected directions. Lake Erie also has one other interesting property called a seiche (sp?) when the wind comes up strong out of the southwest the water builds up on the Buffalo shore. Last year about this time the wind came up for half a day and the water level rose nearly 10 feet in the marina where I keep my boat in the summer. With fixed docks this put the water above the shore power boxes, fortunately I was on the hard so no harm was done. Twenty years ago I was racing my Cal25 on a day when the 170 was used for half of the race, it was probably a good 150 day. At the weather mark we popped the chute and of course it started to pipe up. Being a coward at heart, when the Canadian coast guard called for strong winds I called for the chute to come down and the 130 to be hoisted. Within five minutes the wind hit 53 knots on the anemometer of the boat next to me and a peak gust of 78 was recorded at the coast guard station, I can tell you that a Cal 25 will plane in these conditions, we had a bow wave that came back to the companionway and cleared the deck. It was a great ride until the waves came up and we had to round the leeward mark. With the prevailing winds being straight into Buffalo more than one boat has been driven into the breakwall when they venture out of the harbor with too much bravado and too little experience. These Lakes can be nasty! --------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris H Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Great Lakes storm On Thursday 29 November 2007 05:01:39 pm Chris Campbell wrote: > Listmates: > > My town, Traverse City, MI, is on Grand Traverse Bay of Lake Michigan. Greets Chris: I've sailed out of Traverse Bay once. It was the first time ever on a modern sailboat, 32 Beneteau charter vessel, since my youth and skippered by a relative who had a bareboat license. Scary things these licenses as I was about to find out. Once out of the harbor the wind kicked up to 40knots plus and we were on our way to Mackinaw. This thing popped around like a cork in bathtub. Said skipper went below decks and came up with the Annapolis guide to master seamanship while I was pretending to hold on to the wheel..Jaw dropped immediately. Not a good sign. Well it took us three days of port hopping just to get to Charleveux and my knees never stopped knocking from the minute we left dockside. The only time they settled down was when we were tied up again and a few beers later. So we decided to go to the movies in Charleveux just to relax one night and to wait out the small craft warnings as said skipper thought this was all great sport. The only friggen movie playing was "The Perfect Storm". There was absolutely no friggen way I was gonna see that movie as my knees had not recovered. The posters they sell in the tourist shops and display in the windows of the lighthouse at the harbor entrance in the middle of a fall storm is enough to scare the living crap outta any sane human being. No need to reinforce it with a movie and a skipper who might have well have won his license at the local carnival. All I could think of was the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald and the tune just kept playing in my head over and over and over. Man it was good to get home in one piece. The scariest part was the kids never even thought they were in any danger. Water temp was a cool 50 degree's f as it was late May, shoulder season, meaning cheap rates but hypothermic conditions should anyone go over the side. My problem was I couldn't bail out of the trip as if anything were to have happened to the kids, my sister would never have forgiven me. Quite a dilemma, an unseasoned skipper, a novice crew and continuouse small craft warnings and a schedule. Trying to keep a schedule is always a recipe for disaster or so I tried to convince the skipper. No luck on that front either. I've been on Lakes Superior, Michigan, Georgian Bay, Lake Huron, Erie and Ontario. In my experience the worst was Michigan but others in the know will tell you that Superior is far worse especially in the fall. This spring we delivered my friends new old boat out of Vermillion Ohio destined for St. Catherines ON. On the third day out and not making Cleveland we decided to have the boat shipped to St. Cits as fighting a head wind of 30 plus knots and 12-15 foot waves zapped the energy out of this older team. Weather forcast was for more of the same due to some Tornado in the central States that was really messing with the weather. Easterlies for 5 days and more of the same for the next five days. Standard weather is from the West. always,.except on the day we left harbor. While on a schedule we simply deferred it. Friend is a seasoned skipper and usually does not let a schedule deterimine his routing. So we headed over to the CYC and had the boat shipped back to Canada for what we considered was a lot of money. However everyone was safe including the boat. The issue on Lake Erie is not the wave height rather the frequency. Its a very shallow lake. Locals referr to them as square waves to which I can attest too. In a 75 Ericson 35 MKII we typically crested two waves at 12-15 ft height with the third wave covering the bow as we slid down the second. At 6-7 knots boat speed and winds gusting from 25-45 knots this was fun for a few hrs but after that it got brutal as you fight a head wind and the contents of your stomach at the same time. The Great Lakes indeed can be brutal at times. "Beware of the gales of November" ...... Gordon Lightfoot. Regards /ch --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

david dobbs wrote: > John, > Seiches are common on Lake Michigan, usually only a couple of feet or > so, but occasionally much larger. Back in 1958 a number of fishermen > were drowned, some never found, while fishing on Montrose Pier in > Chicago. A huge seiche formed and took them out to lake. My own > experience is that we had a large seiche one June and the boats were > above the level of the parking lot and the cars in the lot were > submerged, and ruined. Weird stuff. I have some pictures somewhere, > I'll try to find them and post. Explain that to your insurance agent! > Seiches are the result of wind speed and direction, and atmospheric pressure differentials. They tend to be more pronounced on Lake Erie because of its E-W orientation. Prevailing winds tend to be from the west and storm systems tend to move eastward. Part of the seiche effect is from the water sloshing back and forth in the lake after a big wind-driven runup. Imagine the effect you created in the bathtub as a kid. It's the same thing on the lakes, but slower. Chris Campbell

Chris, Because Lake Michigan is long and narrow there is some thought that if a high formed over the north end of the lake, and a low was at the south end of the lake it could cause a large seiche to form at the south end, especially when you consider that the bottom of the lake, (the south end actually), is very shallow, 30 to 50 feet of depth. You have to go ten miles out from Chicago to get to 100 feet. The effects of wind are very pronounced here. Noreasters are rough, witness the 3 sailors who were killed last month. If the wind blows hard from the west my harbor will lose a foot of water if not more, but there will be flat water on the open lake. Wind, combined with the shape and depth of the bottom make up the factors you have to consider. Regards, David Dobbs Cal29 411 Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: david dobbs wrote: John, Seiches are common on Lake Michigan, usually only a couple of feet or so, but occasionally much larger. Back in 1958 a number of fishermen were drowned, some never found, while fishing on Montrose Pier in Chicago. A huge seiche formed and took them out to lake. My own experience is that we had a large seiche one June and the boats were above the level of the parking lot and the cars in the lot were submerged, and ruined. Weird stuff. I have some pictures somewhere, I'll try to find them and post. Explain that to your insurance agent! Seiches are the result of wind speed and direction, and atmospheric pressure differentials. They tend to be more pronounced on Lake Erie because of its E-W orientation. Prevailing winds tend to be from the west and storm systems tend to move eastward. Part of the seiche effect is from the water sloshing back and forth in the lake after a big wind-driven runup. Imagine the effect you created in the bathtub as a kid. It's the same thing on the lakes, but slower. Chris Campbell --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

david dobbs wrote: > Chris, > Because Lake Michigan is long and narrow there is some thought that if > a high formed over the north end of the lake, and a low was at the > south end of the lake it could cause a large seiche to form at the > south end, especially when you consider that the bottom of the lake, > (the south end actually), is very shallow, 30 to 50 feet of depth. > You have to go ten miles out from Chicago to get to 100 feet. The > effects of wind are very pronounced here. Noreasters are rough, > witness the 3 sailors who were killed last month. If the wind blows > hard from the west my harbor will lose a foot of water if not more, > but there will be flat water on the open lake. Wind, combined with > the shape and depth of the bottom make up the factors you have to > consider. > I grew up on, and keep a boat on, Lake Huron's Saginaw Bay. It is also a big shallow body and the winds tend to be either SW or NE, right on the axis of the Bay. As a result, there's considerable wind-driven runup or dropping of water levels. The variation can be impressive, and during the high water levels of the mid-'80s the runup surprised a lot of people who had built houses and little seawalls during the low-water periods of the mid-'60s. The sea-wall installers had a field day for a while. My cottage there still has its 1946 seawall but almost everybody else had to augment or replace theirs. The long fetch when the wind is from the NE makes for pretty good seas, although the bay's shallow depths make for smaller, shorter-period waves, nasty little buggers. I think Lake Erie, and Buffalo in particular, is the real seiche record holder, though because of its combination of directional alignment and depth (lack thereof). Now that levels are low, the wind or weather driven level changes are of more concern to commercial shipping--it can mean the difference between getting into a harbor or having to wait for the water to come back up. It's fun to observe all these changes. Chris Campbell