Tiller vs. Wheel

Fin, Mike,Charlie, et al, Thank you for this great discussion of an age old question. Part of what makes this group so great is the body of knowledge that is freely shared with the members. Jerry, I will troll my neighborhood used book store for Walker's book. Being a mostly self-taught sailor, I have often wondered whether my preference for the tiller came about because it's what I learned first, or if there was another reason. The more I've fooled around, and the more I've read, the more convinced I've become that the tiller is a better way to go in pleasure craft of the size we sail. How you configure your cockpit is certainly a matter of personal taste, of course. As an often single-hander, the tiller is seldom in my way. If Nemesis was being raced by a cast of thousands, it might be different, although the main sheet and traveler are rigged to be run from the companionway so that Fred and Ginger have room to dance at the sheet winches. Three's a bit of a crowd in the cockpit, especially with the dodger or aft enclosure in place, but it is seldom an issue in my world. I've given quite a bit of thought to hinging the tiller just in front of the autopilot mount, which would open up the cockpit when Tillie is at the helm. And for in port convenience, nothing matches pivoting the tiller up and completely out of the way. As has been well explained in the course of this thread, the wheel's main contribution is it's mechanical advantage. This results in easier helming over a longer shift, and the ability to overcome most balance issues through the application of brute force. Even the autopilot advantage can be reduced, in great part, to brute force, although the ability to shelter it from weather is a valid and significant advantage. Much of my satisfaction from sailing comes from making the Nemesis perform to the best of it's abilities, given the equipment at hand. I have acquired a small but ever growing base of knowledge through study and observation. My task is to use it to interpret the input I receive from the boat, the sea and the weather provide me and make the appropriate adjustments. I want to feel the tiller loading up, and I want to feel the result of my efforts to relieve it. By learning when and what makes it load up today, I should be able to take steps to avoid it tomorrow. In sailing, as in my other passion skiing, it's all about energy management and momentum. If you wait until you see the boat stand up, or the sail luff or feel the tiller hit you in the lap, you've lost momentum and must expend limited energy to recover it. How you interpret the feel of the tiller, the look of the water and any number of intuitive things make the difference between sailing or skiing well, and doing it at an expert level. Clearly I have a lot to learn before I get there, but I think the tiller is a major contributor to the experience. That and three dollars will get you a cup at Starbucks. Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

i told you He wasn't going to give-up that old Hickory-stick! by-the-way, Capt. Fred; i drink a grandi lattie' it's about $5.50 plus tip...... :)(: ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fred Haas" <fred.haas@...> wrote: > > Fin, Mike,Charlie, et al, > Thank you for this great discussion of an age old question. Part of what makes this group so great is the body of knowledge that is freely shared with the members. Jerry, I will troll my neighborhood used book store for Walker's book. > > Being a mostly self-taught sailor, I have often wondered whether my preference for the tiller came about because it's what I learned first, or if there was another reason. The more I've fooled around, and the more I've read, the more convinced I've become that the tiller is a better way to go in pleasure craft of the size we sail. > > How you configure your cockpit is certainly a matter of personal taste, of course. As an often single-hander, the tiller is seldom in my way. If Nemesis was being raced by a cast of thousands, it might be different, although the main sheet and traveler are rigged to be run from the companionway so that Fred and Ginger have room to dance at the sheet winches. Three's a bit of a crowd in the cockpit, especially with the dodger or aft enclosure in place, but it is seldom an issue in my world. I've given quite a bit of thought to hinging the tiller just in front of the autopilot mount, which would open up the cockpit when Tillie is at the helm. And for in port convenience, nothing matches pivoting the tiller up and completely out of the way. > > As has been well explained in the course of this thread, the wheel's main contribution is it's mechanical advantage. This results in easier helming over a longer shift, and the ability to overcome most balance issues through the application of brute force. Even the autopilot advantage can be reduced, in great part, to brute force, although the ability to shelter it from weather is a valid and significant advantage. > > Much of my satisfaction from sailing comes from making the Nemesis perform to the best of it's abilities, given the equipment at hand. I have acquired a small but ever growing base of knowledge through study and observation. My task is to use it to interpret the input I receive from the boat, the sea and the weather provide me and make the appropriate adjustments. I want to feel the tiller loading up, and I want to feel the result of my efforts to relieve it. By learning when and what makes it load up today, I should be able to take steps to avoid it tomorrow. > > In sailing, as in my other passion skiing, it's all about energy management and momentum. If you wait until you see the boat stand up, or the sail luff or feel the tiller hit you in the lap, you've lost momentum and must expend limited energy to recover it. How you interpret the feel of the tiller, the look of the water and any number of intuitive things make the difference between sailing or skiing well, and doing it at an expert level. Clearly I have a lot to learn before I get there, but I think the tiller is a major contributor to the experience. > > That and three dollars will get you a cup at Starbucks. > > Fred Haas > 3-30 Nemesis > Tacoma >

Fiver, on the rare occasion that I walk into a Starbucks, I always ask if they have any coffee. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of slickbutfoxbuger Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller vs. Wheel i told you He wasn't going to give-up that old Hickory-stick! by-the-way, Capt. Fred; i drink a grandi lattie' it's about $5.50 plus tip...... :)(: ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fred Haas" <fred.haas@...> wrote: > > Fin, Mike,Charlie, et al, > Thank you for this great discussion of an age old question. Part of what makes this group so great is the body of knowledge that is freely shared with the members. Jerry, I will troll my neighborhood used book store for Walker's book. > > Being a mostly self-taught sailor, I have often wondered whether my preference for the tiller came about because it's what I learned first, or if there was another reason. The more I've fooled around, and the more I've read, the more convinced I've become that the tiller is a better way to go in pleasure craft of the size we sail. > > How you configure your cockpit is certainly a matter of personal taste, of course. As an often single-hander, the tiller is seldom in my way. If Nemesis was being raced by a cast of thousands, it might be different, although the main sheet and traveler are rigged to be run from the companionway so that Fred and Ginger have room to dance at the sheet winches. Three's a bit of a crowd in the cockpit, especially with the dodger or aft enclosure in place, but it is seldom an issue in my world. I've given quite a bit of thought to hinging the tiller just in front of the autopilot mount, which would open up the cockpit when Tillie is at the helm. And for in port convenience, nothing matches pivoting the tiller up and completely out of the way. > > As has been well explained in the course of this thread, the wheel's main contribution is it's mechanical advantage. This results in easier helming over a longer shift, and the ability to overcome most balance issues through the application of brute force. Even the autopilot advantage can be reduced, in great part, to brute force, although the ability to shelter it from weather is a valid and significant advantage. > > Much of my satisfaction from sailing comes from making the Nemesis perform to the best of it's abilities, given the equipment at hand. I have acquired a small but ever growing base of knowledge through study and observation. My task is to use it to interpret the input I receive from the boat, the sea and the weather provide me and make the appropriate adjustments. I want to feel the tiller loading up, and I want to feel the result of my efforts to relieve it. By learning when and what makes it load up today, I should be able to take steps to avoid it tomorrow. > > In sailing, as in my other passion skiing, it's all about energy management and momentum. If you wait until you see the boat stand up, or the sail luff or feel the tiller hit you in the lap, you've lost momentum and must expend limited energy to recover it. How you interpret the feel of the tiller, the look of the water and any number of intuitive things make the difference between sailing or skiing well, and doing it at an expert level. Clearly I have a lot to learn before I get there, but I think the tiller is a major contributor to the experience. > > That and three dollars will get you a cup at Starbucks. > > Fred Haas > 3-30 Nemesis > Tacoma > Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fred Haas" <fred.haas@...> wrote: > > Fin, Mike,Charlie, et al, > Thank you for this great discussion of an age old question. Part of what makes this group so great is the body of knowledge that is freely shared with the members. Jerry, I will troll my neighborhood used book store for Walker's book. There are a bunch of Stuart Walker sailing books. He is another sailing doctor. > > Being a mostly self-taught sailor, I have often wondered whether my preference for the tiller came about because it's what I learned first, or if there was another reason. The more I've fooled around, and the more I've read, the more convinced I've become that the tiller is a better way to go in pleasure craft of the size we sail. > > How you configure your cockpit is certainly a matter of personal taste, of course. As an often single-hander, the tiller is seldom in my way. My Choate 40 had an aft helmsman's cockpit and the tiller was aft of the traveller. The Cal 40, when it was racing big time, had everybody forward anyway. If people congregated in the cockpit while racing, my crew referred to that as "popping a wheelie." Now, the Cal 40 goes between San Pedro and Catalina Island, often under power if the wind is light. When we are on the mooring, the tiller folds back out of the way. The wheels I've seen on Cal 40s, like this one: http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/cal40.htm are always in the way. The Cal 43 has a companionway located to the starboard side, so the wheel is not in the way. Again, it's personal preference. I looked at a Cal 48 about ten years ago and its wheel was in the way. The 43 has a better solution to that problem. If you have an aft cockpit for the helmsman, both the wheel and the tiller are out of the way so you are back to personal choice. The 48 was beautiful but I had no place to put it. A 43 will fit in a 40 foot slip. snipped > As has been well explained in the course of this thread, the wheel's main contribution is it's mechanical advantage. This results in easier helming over a longer shift, and the ability to overcome most balance issues through the application of brute force. Even the autopilot advantage can be reduced, in great part, to brute force, although the ability to shelter it from weather is a valid and significant advantage. If brute force on the helm is an issue the problem is not with the type of helm. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

if that had been a shot from a 40-pounder, there-ed be a hole clean-clear through me-boat, Charlie! good aim! ****************** --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Fiver, on the rare occasion that I walk into a Starbucks, I always ask > if they have any coffee. > > Cheers > Charlie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of slickbutfoxbuger > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:43 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller vs. Wheel > > i told you He wasn't going to give-up that old Hickory-stick! > > by-the-way, Capt. Fred; i drink a grandi lattie' > it's about $5.50 plus tip...... :)(: > > ************************ > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fred Haas" <fred.haas@> wrote: > > > > Fin, Mike,Charlie, et al, > > Thank you for this great discussion of an age old question. Part of > what makes this group so great is the body of knowledge that is freely > shared with the members. Jerry, I will troll my neighborhood used book > store for Walker's book. > > > > Being a mostly self-taught sailor, I have often wondered whether my > preference for the tiller came about because it's what I learned first, > or if there was another reason. The more I've fooled around, and the > more I've read, the more convinced I've become that the tiller is a > better way to go in pleasure craft of the size we sail. > > > > How you configure your cockpit is certainly a matter of personal > taste, of course. As an often single-hander, the tiller is seldom in my > way. If Nemesis was being raced by a cast of thousands, it might be > different, although the main sheet and traveler are rigged to be run > from the companionway so that Fred and Ginger have room to dance at the > sheet winches. Three's a bit of a crowd in the cockpit, especially with > the dodger or aft enclosure in place, but it is seldom an issue in my > world. I've given quite a bit of thought to hinging the tiller just in > front of the autopilot mount, which would open up the cockpit when > Tillie is at the helm. And for in port convenience, nothing matches > pivoting the tiller up and completely out of the way. > > > > As has been well explained in the course of this thread, the > wheel's main contribution is it's mechanical advantage. This results in > easier helming over a longer shift, and the ability to overcome most > balance issues through the application of brute force. Even the > autopilot advantage can be reduced, in great part, to brute force, > although the ability to shelter it from weather is a valid and > significant advantage. > > > > Much of my satisfaction from sailing comes from making the Nemesis > perform to the best of it's abilities, given the equipment at hand. I > have acquired a small but ever growing base of knowledge through study > and observation. My task is to use it to interpret the input I receive > from the boat, the sea and the weather provide me and make the > appropriate adjustments. I want to feel the tiller loading up, and I > want to feel the result of my efforts to relieve it. By learning when > and what makes it load up today, I should be able to take steps to avoid > it tomorrow. > > > > In sailing, as in my other passion skiing, it's all about energy > management and momentum. If you wait until you see the boat stand up, or > the sail luff or feel the tiller hit you in the lap, you've lost > momentum and must expend limited energy to recover it. How you interpret > the feel of the tiller, the look of the water and any number of > intuitive things make the difference between sailing or skiing well, and > doing it at an expert level. Clearly I have a lot to learn before I get > there, but I think the tiller is a major contributor to the experience. > > > > That and three dollars will get you a cup at Starbucks. > > > > Fred Haas > > 3-30 Nemesis > > Tacoma > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

When we bought Cal 40 Victoria! (California Girl) she had a wheel in the aft portion of the cockpit. Note the main sheet went into the coaming, and was collected on a sprung wheel, like you see at a mechanics shop for air hose or electrical cords. While the wheel had some nice features: steering, engine controls, and the sheet readily available, we changed out because I wanted the feel and simplicity of a tiller. This unit was clever, and sat directly over the tiller post. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:56 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller vs. Wheel --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> , "Fred Haas" <fred.haas@...> wrote: > > Fin, Mike,Charlie, et al, > Thank you for this great discussion of an age old question. Part of what makes this group so great is the body of knowledge that is freely shared with the members. Jerry, I will troll my neighborhood used book store for Walker's book. There are a bunch of Stuart Walker sailing books. He is another sailing doctor. > > Being a mostly self-taught sailor, I have often wondered whether my preference for the tiller came about because it's what I learned first, or if there was another reason. The more I've fooled around, and the more I've read, the more convinced I've become that the tiller is a better way to go in pleasure craft of the size we sail. > > How you configure your cockpit is certainly a matter of personal taste, of course. As an often single-hander, the tiller is seldom in my way. My Choate 40 had an aft helmsman's cockpit and the tiller was aft of the traveller. The Cal 40, when it was racing big time, had everybody forward anyway. If people congregated in the cockpit while racing, my crew referred to that as "popping a wheelie." Now, the Cal 40 goes between San Pedro and Catalina Island, often under power if the wind is light. When we are on the mooring, the tiller folds back out of the way. The wheels I've seen on Cal 40s, like this one: http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/cal40.htm <http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/cal40.htm> are always in the way. The Cal 43 has a companionway located to the starboard side, so the wheel is not in the way. Again, it's personal preference. I looked at a Cal 48 about ten years ago and its wheel was in the way. The 43 has a better solution to that problem. If you have an aft cockpit for the helmsman, both the wheel and the tiller are out of the way so you are back to personal choice. The 48 was beautiful but I had no place to put it. A 43 will fit in a 40 foot slip. snipped > As has been well explained in the course of this thread, the wheel's main contribution is it's mechanical advantage. This results in easier helming over a longer shift, and the ability to overcome most balance issues through the application of brute force. Even the autopilot advantage can be reduced, in great part, to brute force, although the ability to shelter it from weather is a valid and significant advantage. If brute force on the helm is an issue the problem is not with the type of helm. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96