"The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with"

Well, well, well...... i see the group has ganged-up and voiced their usual grips where wheel-steering is the subject. i don't imagine that anyone here has even bothered to explain that most Cal-Boat's are so old that wheel-steering hadn't even been invented when they were in production..... well, it wasn't really that bad, but sometimes i think most of these Guys a steam-engine is a modern invention. not all of us are that old, Mick. nor do all of us in this group; and by the way. This is a really Great Group of Sailors. but as i was about to say, not all of us think that a 3.5 foot piece of wood that takes up most of the useful leg-room in the cockpit is really worth that much trouble. personally, i think it's a through-back to the *Flintstons*. and i really don't watch that show any more. honestly though, the tiller is for small boats that can be steered with-out the need for a mechanical advantage. and or for those boats where cost is a concern. and here is another little ditty; show me an old boat with a tiller. and i will show you an old boat with nothing for bloody rudder-bearings. well, nothing but a sloppy-ass fiber-glass tube and the rudder-shaft it's self. it kind-of-reminds me of going out to the farm and getting into the old *ford* that has been sitting in the field for years. they only use it to pull the hay-trailer, so no need to fix anything on it. and when you try to steer it, well....... you can't unless it's moving. and even then it squeaks and shimmy's all over the place. i live up here in Puget Sound. and it can get really rough and nasty without warning. but then that is sailing in my opinion. and i think Capt. Fred would agree with me too. in fact, i have been going out on His boat recently. He has a Cal 3-30 named *Nemesis*. a good Heavy weather boat. which is good as He and fiver never seem to find the heavy weather when we go out these days. my point in all of this is that when the wind hits a constant 25 to 30 knots out in the open Sound. i can't hold Nemesis going up-wind for any period of time. of course, i am not in very good shape. and Capt. Fred does much better than i. but in sailing with Him in heavy weather, i have learned that my first inclination was very much correct. i very much need a wheel on my Cal-28 flush-deck. and not just some cheap piece of crap like every other small boat has either. a chain and cable job is just as bad as having no bearings in your rudder tube. hells-bells; you mite as well hang an oar off the stern and steer that way. for me, engineering is easy. welding, machine work, fabrication. thinking outside the box. but if you are not that sort. here is a link below that i suggest...... (cut and paste it into your browser) fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) ******************************************* Lewmar Cobra Wheel steering system..... _http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=113_ (http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=113) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Fiver, Sometimes simpler is better. If the boat can't be handled properly in a blow, then she has too much sail up, or the sailplan in use isn't properly balanced. When racing the 25, we have up as much sail as we can carry for the conditions. Without a good main trimmer, the boat can get overpowered quickly. Reduce sail area, and the boat handles nicely in a blow without nearly as much work. I just remember an incident with a larger Catalina sailboat with wheel, where on a really windy day while we were out racing, we heard them calling for assistance over the vhf because their steering cable snapped. They ended up drifting down on a pilon for the Bay Bridge, and taking off a good deal of gelcoat before a tow boat was able to get them and tow them back to their slip. I bet they would have paid good money for a tiller right about then. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: fi… [at] aol.com To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:31 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" Well, well, well...... i see the group has ganged-up and voiced their usual grips where wheel-steering is the subject. i don't imagine that anyone here has even bothered to explain that most Cal-Boat's are so old that wheel-steering hadn't even been invented when they were in production..... well, it wasn't really that bad, but sometimes i think most of these Guys a steam-engine is a modern invention. not all of us are that old, Mick. nor do all of us in this group; and by the way. This is a really Great Group of Sailors. but as i was about to say, not all of us think that a 3.5 foot piece of wood that takes up most of the useful leg-room in the cockpit is really worth that much trouble. personally, i think it's a through-back to the *Flintstons*. and i really don't watch that show any more. honestly though, the tiller is for small boats that can be steered with-out the need for a mechanical advantage. and or for those boats where cost is a concern. and here is another little ditty; show me an old boat with a tiller. and i will show you an old boat with nothing for bloody rudder-bearings. well, nothing but a sloppy-ass fiber-glass tube and the rudder-shaft it's self. it kind-of-reminds me of going out to the farm and getting into the old *ford* that has been sitting in the field for years. they only use it to pull the hay-trailer, so no need to fix anything on it. and when you try to steer it, well....... you can't unless it's moving. and even then it squeaks and shimmy's all over the place. i live up here in Puget Sound. and it can get really rough and nasty without warning. but then that is sailing in my opinion. and i think Capt. Fred would agree with me too. in fact, i have been going out on His boat recently. He has a Cal 3-30 named *Nemesis*. a good Heavy weather boat. which is good as He and fiver never seem to find the heavy weather when we go out these days. my point in all of this is that when the wind hits a constant 25 to 30 knots out in the open Sound. i can't hold Nemesis going up-wind for any period of time. of course, i am not in very good shape. and Capt. Fred does much better than i. but in sailing with Him in heavy weather, i have learned that my first inclination was very much correct. i very much need a wheel on my Cal-28 flush-deck. and not just some cheap piece of crap like every other small boat has either. a chain and cable job is just as bad as having no bearings in your rudder tube. hells-bells; you mite as well hang an oar off the stern and steer that way. for me, engineering is easy. welding, machine work, fabrication. thinking outside the box. but if you are not that sort. here is a link below that i suggest...... (cut and paste it into your browser) fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) ******************************************* Lewmar Cobra Wheel steering system..... http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=113 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

hello Scott; good point about the steering cable snapping on that Catalina. but i think i cautioned folks on that subject; Oh Yes! here it was in my last post..... "and not just some cheap piece of crap like every other small boat has either. a chain and cable job is just as bad as having no bearings in your rudder tube." i knew i had mentioned cheap wheel-steering..... :)(: i think you get what you pay for, don't you, Scott. now the point i was really trying to make was that in Puget Sound this time of year; the only good sailing seems to be heavy weather sailing. that can often mean 32 degrees with a dropping barometer. possibly on the heals of a gale with the USCG storm warning already posted. 48 hours after Nemesis's last little 12 day- sail; we had what the national weather service is calling the storm of the century out here. we have declarations of disaster in both Oregon and Washington. sometimes you get the wind, and sometimes the wind gets you. but what i damn well know is that i don't want my foot-well taken up by a bloody tiller that everyone must trip over to get around. not in the kind of weather i like to sail in. i also want to have that extra mechanical advantage over my rudder when the weather hits. and i want the extra room in the cockpit that it will give me, and the safety factor that brings. now, would you like to talk about the difference's in auto- pilots. because there is a world of difference between what you can put on a wheel over a tiller. i lean i lot going out with Capt. Fred. i am the first to admit i haven't had a lot of recent sailing experience. and what i have had has not been in production boats. but i am an experienced *seamen* girl. and i will tell you that on that last sail on Nemesis; i got so cold that i started shivering and had to go below for most of the day. this even though i had three layers on. one of the things i learned is that i need one of those suites the CG guys wear when they go out in the *RBI's*. i think that would keep me warm....... and afloat if i went over.... :)(: fiver ********************************* --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Scott Sauvageot" <rxnumbercruncher@...> wrote: > > Fiver, > > Sometimes simpler is better. If the boat can't be handled properly in a blow, then she has too much sail up, or the sailplan in use isn't properly balanced. When racing the 25, we have up as much sail as we can carry for the conditions. Without a good main trimmer, the boat can get overpowered quickly. Reduce sail area, and the boat handles nicely in a blow without nearly as much work. > > I just remember an incident with a larger Catalina sailboat with wheel, where on a really windy day while we were out racing, we heard them calling for assistance over the vhf because their steering cable snapped. They ended up drifting down on a pilon for the Bay Bridge, and taking off a good deal of gelcoat before a tow boat was able to get them and tow them back to their slip. > > I bet they would have paid good money for a tiller right about then. > > Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: fiverhrairoo@... > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:31 PM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" > > > > Well, well, well...... > > i see the group has ganged-up and voiced their usual grips where wheel-steering is the subject. i don't imagine that anyone here has even bothered to explain that most Cal-Boat's are so old that wheel-steering hadn't even been invented when they were in production..... > well, it wasn't really that bad, but sometimes i think most of these Guys a steam-engine is a modern invention. not all of us are that old, Mick. nor do all of us in this group; and by the way. This is a really Great Group of Sailors. > but as i was about to say, not all of us think that a 3.5 foot piece of wood that takes up most of the useful leg-room in the cockpit is really worth that much trouble. personally, i think it's a through-back to the *Flintstons*. and i really don't watch that show any more. > honestly though, the tiller is for small boats that can be steered with-out the need for a mechanical advantage. and or for those boats where cost is a concern. > and here is another little ditty; show me an old boat with a tiller. and i will show you an old boat with nothing for bloody rudder-bearings. well, nothing but a sloppy-ass fiber-glass tube and the rudder-shaft it's self. it kind-of-reminds me of going out to the farm and getting into the old *ford* that has been sitting in the field for years. they only use it to pull the hay-trailer, so no need to fix anything on it. and when you try to steer it, well....... you can't unless it's moving. and even then it squeaks and shimmy's all over the place. > i live up here in Puget Sound. and it can get really rough and nasty without warning. but then that is sailing in my opinion. and i think Capt. Fred would agree with me too. in fact, i have been going out on His boat recently. He has a Cal 3-30 named *Nemesis*. a good Heavy weather boat. which is good as He and fiver never seem to find the heavy weather when we go out these days. my point in all of this is that when the wind hits a constant 25 to 30 knots out in the open Sound. i can't hold Nemesis going up-wind for any period of time. of course, i am not in very good shape. and Capt. Fred does much better than i. but in sailing with Him in heavy weather, i have learned that my first inclination was very much correct. i very much need a wheel on my Cal-28 flush-deck. and not just some cheap piece of crap like every other small boat has either. a chain and cable job is just as bad as having no bearings in your rudder tube. hells-bells; you mite as well hang an oar off the stern and steer that way. > > for me, engineering is easy. welding, machine work, fabrication. thinking outside the box. but if you are not that sort. here is a link below that i suggest...... > > (cut and paste it into your browser) > > > fiver, > Master of The "BB-54" > one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks > out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) > now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; > in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... > (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......) > ******************************************* > > Lewmar Cobra Wheel steering system..... > > http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=113 > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. >

Fiver, I agree, you did caution against the "junk." Alas, that seems to be what is on most production boats today. If someone were to convert their boat from tiller to wheel, I think it's important to have an emergency tiller aboard that can be used in event of wheel failure. I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to add another reef in the main. Have fun! Scott To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comFrom: fi… [at] aol.comDate: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:21:14 +0000Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" hello Scott;good point about the steering cable snapping on that Catalina. but i think i cautioned folks on that subject; Oh Yes! here it was in my last post....."and not just some cheap piece of crap like every other small boat has either. a chain and cable job is just as bad as having no bearings in your rudder tube."i knew i had mentioned cheap wheel-steering..... :)(: i think you get what you pay for, don't you, Scott. now the point i was really trying to make was that in Puget Sound this time of year; the only good sailing seems to be heavy weather sailing. that can often mean 32 degrees with a dropping barometer. possibly on the heals of a gale with the USCG storm warning already posted. 48 hours after Nemesis's last little 12 day-sail; we had what the national weather service is calling the storm of the century out here. we have declarations of disaster in both Oregon and Washington. sometimes you get the wind, and sometimes the wind gets you. but what i damn well know is that i don't want my foot-well taken up by a bloody tiller that everyone must trip over to get around. not in the kind of weather i like to sail in. i also want to have that extra mechanical advantage over my rudder when the weather hits. and i want the extra room in the cockpit that it will give me, and the safety factor that brings. now, would you like to talk about the difference's in auto-pilots. because there is a world of difference between what you can put on a wheel over a tiller. i lean i lot going out with Capt. Fred. i am the first to admit i haven't had a lot of recent sailing experience. and what i have had has not been in production boats. but i am an experienced *seamen* girl. and i will tell you that on that last sail on Nemesis; i got so cold that i started shivering and had to go below for most of the day. this even though i had three layers on. one of the things i learned is that i need one of those suites the CG guys wear when they go out in the *RBI's*. i think that would keep me warm....... and afloat if i went over.... :)(:fiver *********************************--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Scott Sauvageot" <rxnumbercruncher@...> wrote:>> Fiver, > > Sometimes simpler is better. If the boat can't be handled properly in a blow, then she has too much sail up, or the sailplan in use isn't properly balanced. When racing the 25, we have up as much sail as we can carry for the conditions. Without a good main trimmer, the boat can get overpowered quickly. Reduce sail area, and the boat handles nicely in a blow without nearly as much work. > > I just remember an incident with a larger Catalina sailboat with wheel, where on a really windy day while we were out racing, we heard them calling for assistance over the vhf because their steering cable snapped. They ended up drifting down on a pilon for the Bay Bridge, and taking off a good deal of gelcoat before a tow boat was able to get them and tow them back to their slip. > > I bet they would have paid good money for a tiller right about then. > > Scott> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: fiverhrairoo@... > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 8:31 PM> Subject: [Cal_Boats] "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with"> > > > Well, well, well......> > i see the group has ganged-up and voiced their usual grips where wheel-steering is the subject. i don't imagine that anyone here has even bothered to explain that most Cal-Boat's are so old that wheel-steering hadn't even been invented when they were in production.....> well, it wasn't really that bad, but sometimes i think most of these Guys a steam-engine is a modern invention. not all of us are that old, Mick. nor do all of us in this group; and by the way. This is a really Great Group of Sailors.> but as i was about to say, not all of us think that a 3.5 foot piece of wood that takes up most of the useful leg-room in the cockpit is really worth that much trouble. personally, i think it's a through-back to the *Flintstons*. and i really don't watch that show any more. > honestly though, the tiller is for small boats that can be steered with-out the need for a mechanical advantage. and or for those boats where cost is a concern. > and here is another little ditty; show me an old boat with a tiller. and i will show you an old boat with nothing for bloody rudder-bearings. well, nothing but a sloppy-ass fiber-glass tube and the rudder-shaft it's self. it kind-of-reminds me of going out to the farm and getting into the old *ford* that has been sitting in the field for years. they only use it to pull the hay-trailer, so no need to fix anything on it. and when you try to steer it, well....... you can't unless it's moving. and even then it squeaks and shimmy's all over the place. > i live up here in Puget Sound. and it can get really rough and nasty without warning. but then that is sailing in my opinion. and i think Capt. Fred would agree with me too. in fact, i have been going out on His boat recently. He has a Cal 3-30 named *Nemesis*. a good Heavy weather boat. which is good as He and fiver never seem to find the heavy weather when we go out these days. my point in all of this is that when the wind hits a constant 25 to 30 knots out in the open Sound. i can't hold Nemesis going up-wind for any period of time. of course, i am not in very good shape. and Capt. Fred does much better than i. but in sailing with Him in heavy weather, i have learned that my first inclination was very much correct. i very much need a wheel on my Cal-28 flush-deck. and not just some cheap piece of crap like every other small boat has either. a chain and cable job is just as bad as having no bearings in your rudder tube. hells-bells; you mite as well hang an oar off the stern and steer that way. > > for me, engineering is easy. welding, machine work, fabrication. thinking outside the box. but if you are not that sort. here is a link below that i suggest......> > (cut and paste it into your browser)> > > fiver,> Master of The "BB-54"> one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks> out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by)> now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch;> in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard.......> (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......)> *******************************************> > Lewmar Cobra Wheel steering system.....> > http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=113> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------> See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.> Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007

Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > > > I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know > that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller > pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to > add another reef in the main. > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if you're thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour ago." And I'm usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us are just too slow to reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. Even with a wheel, you're going to have the boat rounding up and the rudder pretty hard over, basically acting as a big brake. So even if it's easier to steer via wheel in those conditions, you're still not sailing efficiently. I think a lot of us harbor a notion that reefing is wimpy, but it's really wise when needed. My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out to the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty well at the mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind at all. I've learned to look out to see what others are doing, but even if I do reef and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the reef out because there's too little wind out there than to tie it in when there's too much. There's an interesting photo in a recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in an article on the restoration of /Bloodhound/, a Camper & Nicholson boat that was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to windward. The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not skilled sailors and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've got bad shape and bad trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. I'd rather adjust my sails than lose my tiller. Chris Campbell

hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, Ok..... fiver ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the restoration of /Bloodhound/, a Camper & Nicholson boat > that was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > Chris Campbell >

Ok, OK, OK.... I have been watching this thread for the last couple of days. I have a wheel on Magic, a Cal 2-27. It was installed by a previous owner. Tiller vs. Wheel; Wheel vs. Tiller. Whatever.... I like the wheel. Nuff said. Michael slickbutfoxbuger <fi… [at] aol.com> wrote: hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, Ok..... fiver ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the restoration of /Bloodhound/, a Camper & Nicholson boat > that was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > Chris Campbell > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

One of the reasons I stirred this up again is to get fiver back; we've missed you! From: sentto-16485695-9776-1197414989-george.a.elwers=sa… [at] returns.groups.yahoo.com on behalf of slickbutfoxbuger Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 3:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" (fiver) hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, Ok..... fiver ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> , Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the restoration of /Bloodhound/, a Camper & Nicholson boat > that was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > Chris Campbell > .

I too have read a bit of these emails arguing about wheel vs tiller.. i learned how to sail on my good buddies Cal 34, with a tiller. it is a great boat to sail. and have done many trips across the channel in it. big winds, big seas, long legs... i remember many times getting worked on 4 hour legs at the tiller, just wishing my arms didnt feel so tired.. and im not that old yet.. in fact i remember waking up a few mornings feeling sore after surfing down 6 foot swells all day, working that tiller back and forth. when i bought my Cal 29 it had been converted to a wheel, and i jumped for joy at that.. true it is a bit in the way at anchor. but for me the good out ways the bad. i would not change it for the world.. eric jackson BAREFOOT 1971 CAL 29 CHANNEL ISLANDS CA.

I have always been a tillerman from International 505, Newport 16, 3 old wooden boats ranging from 23-30 and Cal 20 x 2. I love the feel of a tiller nothing like it! However, my wife and kids 10yr & 16yr are new to sailing and I am glad to have a wheel for them. It is much easier for the inexperienced to enjoy the helm and with less confusion during course modifications. I do miss the ability to skull my way around. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" (fiver) Ok, OK, OK.... I have been watching this thread for the last couple of days. I have a wheel on Magic, a Cal 2-27. It was installed by a previous owner. Tiller vs. Wheel; Wheel vs. Tiller. Whatever.... I like the wheel. Nuff said. Michael slickbutfoxbuger <fi… [at] aol.com> wrote: hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, Ok..... fiver ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the restoration of /Bloodhound/, a Camper & Nicholson boat > that was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > Chris Campbell > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

I've missed most of this tiller v. wheel thing, but a loaded up helm is not the problem, it's the symptom. It's not about strength or mechanical advantage. When the helm loads up, that's not the only place where bad trim is creating unnecessary loads on the boat. If the helm is over-loaded, it's generally caused by too much pressure on the back half of the sail plan (the main), which means there is unnecessary pressure on all of it's components, from the gooseneck to the mast-head down the leach to the clew connection, and to each of the components that put pressure on the leach ... the main sheet and its blocks, the vang and all of its hardware. So, choose a solution: shorten sail, flatten the sail (more outhaul, more cunningham), ease the sheet, ease the vang, move the sail-plan forward by easing the backstay and taking up on the headstay, or any combination of these. Complaining about a heavy helm is like sitting in a refrigerator and complaining about the cold. And some of the "coolest" boats around SoCal, including the 66' Medicine Man, are tiller-steered. And well balanced. And on a mooring, when the tiller is tied up verticle to the main-sheet tackle near the end of the boom, it takes up almost no room in the cockpit, whereas a wheel and binacle are often just in the way. At least that's how it is on a Cal-40. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Elwers, George A.<mailto:ge… [at] saic.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:26 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" (fiver) One of the reasons I stirred this up again is to get fiver back; we've missed you! ________________________________ From: sentto-16485695-9776-1197414989-george.a.elwers=sa… [at] returns.groupsyahoo.com<mailto:sentto-16485695-9776-1197414989-george.a.elwers=sa… [at] returns.groups.yahoo.com> on behalf of slickbutfoxbuger Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 3:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" (fiver) hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, Ok..... fiver ************************ --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>> , Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Scott Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the restoration of /Bloodhound/, a Camper & Nicholson boat > that was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > Chris Campbell > . Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Elwers, George A." <george.a.elwers@...> wrote: > > One of the reasons I stirred this up again is to get fiver back; we've missed you! > *************************** Thanks...... :)(: sometimes i just get real depressed in the winter time, Guys....... fiver

i must admit, im still learning to sail.. and all of these things are part of that process. im sure i had everything wrong most of the time.. but the important part is we have a lot of fun. thanks for all the great info. i new something seemed harder than it should be.. eric jackson BAREFOOT 1971 CAL 29 CHANNEL ISLANDS CA. On Dec 11, 2007, at 5:12 PM, Fin Beven wrote: > > I've missed most of this tiller v. wheel thing, but a loaded up > helm is not the problem, it's the symptom. It's not about strength > or mechanical advantage. > > When the helm loads up, that's not the only place where bad trim is > creating unnecessary loads on the boat. > > If the helm is over-loaded, it's generally caused by too much > pressure on the back half of the sail plan (the main), which means > there is unnecessary pressure on all of it's components, from the > gooseneck to the mast-head down the leach to the clew connection, > and to each of the components that put pressure on the leach ... > the main sheet and its blocks, the vang and all of its hardware. > > So, choose a solution: shorten sail, flatten the sail (more > outhaul, more cunningham), ease the sheet, ease the vang, move the > sail-plan forward by easing the backstay and taking up on the > headstay, or any combination of these. > > Complaining about a heavy helm is like sitting in a refrigerator > and complaining about the cold. > > And some of the "coolest" boats around SoCal, including the 66' > Medicine Man, are tiller-steered. And well balanced. > > And on a mooring, when the tiller is tied up verticle to the main- > sheet tackle near the end of the boom, it takes up almost no room > in the cockpit, whereas a wheel and binacle are often just in the > way. At least that's how it is on a Cal-40. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA

Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29 Fin Beven wrote: > I've missed most of this tiller v. wheel thing, but a loaded up helm is not > the problem, it's the symptom. It's not about strength or mechanical > advantage. > > When the helm loads up, that's not the only place where bad trim is > creating unnecessary loads on the boat. > > If the helm is over-loaded, it's generally caused by too much pressure on > the back half of the sail plan (the main), which means there is unnecessary > pressure on all of it's components, from the gooseneck to the mast-head down the > leach to the clew connection, and to each of the components that put pressure on > the leach ... the main sheet and its blocks, the vang and all of its > hardware. > > So, choose a solution: shorten sail, flatten the sail (more outhaul, > more cunningham), ease the sheet, ease the vang, move the sail-plan forward by > easing the backstay and taking up on the headstay, or any combination of > these. > > Complaining about a heavy helm is like sitting in a refrigerator and > complaining about the cold. > > And some of the "coolest" boats around SoCal, including the 66' Medicine > Man, are tiller-steered. And well balanced. > > And on a mooring, when the tiller is tied up verticle to the main-sheet > tackle near the end of the boom, it takes up almost no room in the cockpit, > whereas a wheel and binacle are often just in the way. At least that's how > it is on a Cal-40. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elwers, George A. > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:26 > PM > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel > or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" (fiver) > One of the reasons I stirred this up again is to get fiver > back; we've missed you! ____________ _________ _________ __ From: > sentto-16485695- 9776-1197414989- george.a. elwers=saic. com@returns. groups.yahoo. com > on behalf of slickbutfoxbuger Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 3:16 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: > [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" > (fiver) hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that > it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem > to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who > has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. > even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His > sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, > Ok..... fiver ************ ********* *** --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com < mailto:Cal_Boats% 40yahoogroups. com > > , Chris Campbell <clcampbell@. ..> wrote: > > Scott > Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess > when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to > reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really > heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point > where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding > up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if > you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour > ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us > are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. > Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and > the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even > if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're > still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion > that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out > to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty > well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind > at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but > even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the > reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it > in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a > recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the > restoration of /Bloodhound/ , a Camper & Nicholson boat > that > was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to > windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not > skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've > got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. > I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > > Chris > Campbell > . Yahoo! > email: mailto:Cal_Boats- digest@yahoogrou ps.com > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29 You want a little weather helm as that is telling you there is lift from the rudder. Cals have a balanced rudder so excessive helm is a sign of poor sail balance. A wheel is nice for sailing but the tiller is more sensitive and folds up out of the way when at anchor. It's all personal preference. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 49 # 96

Eric, Go to local boating supply and pick up a copy of Walker's "Manual of Sail Trim"..I guess Amazon has it. Then go racing cruiser class. Then, before too long you will be sailing fast. I recommend that to everyone, if you want very steep learning curve. Don't be afraid to ask advice form good sailors. (ones that are going faster than you are). If I have excessive weather helm I ease off on my traveler, then main sheet if necessary, and or trim in a bit on my Genoa. I try to sail by the tell tails on the leech of my mainsail. Try if you can, try to avoid bubble in the front of the mainsail, and of course, flapping main unless wind is very strong and you don't want to reef..yet. Fin's advice is right on. I love tillers and don't understand why the charterers who rent larger boats can't rent them out unless they have wheels (customers demand wheels), is it because they are clueless about sail trim? It's very sad. Jerry . --- On Tue, 12/11/07, Eric Jackson <er… [at] mac.com> wrote: From: Eric Jackson <er… [at] mac.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Tiller or Wheel To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 5:23 PM i must admit, im still learning to sail.. and all of these things are part of that process.

However, a totally neutral helm can be hard to drive. Most folks like just a little positive helm. Kind of a self-righting action. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Alcorn Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 11:05 PM To: fi… [at] msn.com Cc: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Tiller or Wheel Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29 Fin Beven wrote: > I've missed most of this tiller v. wheel thing, but a loaded up helm > is not the problem, it's the symptom. It's not about strength or > mechanical advantage. > > When the helm loads up, that's not the only place where bad trim is > creating unnecessary loads on the boat. > > If the helm is over-loaded, it's generally caused by too much > pressure on the back half of the sail plan (the main), which means > there is unnecessary pressure on all of it's components, from the > gooseneck to the mast-head down the leach to the clew connection, and > to each of the components that put pressure on the leach ... the main > sheet and its blocks, the vang and all of its hardware. > > So, choose a solution: shorten sail, flatten the sail (more outhaul, > more cunningham), ease the sheet, ease the vang, move the sail-plan > forward by easing the backstay and taking up on the headstay, or any > combination of these. > > Complaining about a heavy helm is like sitting in a refrigerator and > complaining about the cold. > > And some of the "coolest" boats around SoCal, including the 66' > Medicine Man, are tiller-steered. And well balanced. > > And on a mooring, when the tiller is tied up verticle to the > main-sheet tackle near the end of the boom, it takes up almost no room > in the cockpit, whereas a wheel and binacle are often just in the way. > At least that's how it is on a Cal-40. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elwers, George A. > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:26 > PM > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel > or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" (fiver) > One of the reasons I stirred this up again is to get fiver > back; we've missed you! ____________ _________ _________ __ From: > sentto-16485695- 9776-1197414989- george.a. elwers=saic. com@returns. groups.yahoo. com > on behalf of slickbutfoxbuger Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 3:16 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: > [Cal_Boats] Re: "The Wheel or the stick.... what to steer your wagon with" > (fiver) hey Guys! have you ever thought one moment that > it just mite be me? i mite be really out of shape? Capt. Fred doesn't seem > to have a problem handling Nemesis in a big blow...... it's just fiver who > has to wrap both arms and a leg around the tiller to hold the damn thing. > even He says i am out of shape Guys...... so please don't blame His > sail-shape on my lack of upper-body strength, > Ok..... fiver ************ ********* *** --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com < mailto:Cal_Boats% 40yahoogroups. com > > , Chris Campbell <clcampbell@. ..> wrote: > > Scott > Sauvageot wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess > when you're sailing in really heavy weather, helm feel isn't > > > all that important. But then again, if you need greater mechanical > > > advantage than you can get with the tiller, it's past time to > reduce > > sail. We've raced and played on the 25 in really > heavy wind but know > > that when the helm loads up to the point > where I have the tiller > > pegged to keep the boat from rounding > up, that it's time to > > add another reef in the main. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience too. I'm often reminded of the old saying, "if > you're > thinking about reefing, you should have done it 1/2 hour > ago." And I'm > usually reminded about 1/2 hour late. A lot of us > are just too slow to > reduce sail and we end up fighting the boat. > Even with a wheel, you're > going to have the boat rounding up and > the rudder pretty hard over, > basically acting as a big brake. So even > if it's easier to steer via > wheel in those conditions, you're > still not sailing efficiently. I > think a lot of us harbor a notion > that reefing is wimpy, but it's really > wise when needed. > > > My Cal 20 hangs on a mooring where the winds are odd. I'll row out > to > the boat and think I need a reef because it's blowing pretty > well at the > mooring, and then get out on the Bay and find no wind > at all. I've > learned to look out to see what others are doing, but > even if I do reef > and don't need it, it's far easier to shake the > reef out because there's > too little wind out there than to tie it > in when there's too much. > > There's an interesting photo in a > recent issue of /Sailing/ magazine, in > an article on the > restoration of /Bloodhound/ , a Camper & Nicholson boat > that > was the Queen's (well, really Prince Phillip's) boat in the 1960s. > > It shows the owner at the tiller, both hands pulling it to > windward. > The article mentioned that the owner and crew were not > skilled sailors > and not adept at sail shape and trim. If you've > got bad shape and bad > trim, you'll need both hands on the tiller. > I'd rather adjust my sails > than lose my tiller. > > > Chris > Campbell > . Yahoo! > email: mailto:Cal_Boats- digest@yahoogrou ps.com > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Yahoo! Groups Links

thanks jerry, i actually have that book. and have read through it cover to cover.. much good information.. cheers eric On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:03 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > Eric, > Go to local boating supply and pick up a copy of Walker's "Manual > of Sail Trim"..I guess Amazon has it. Then go racing cruiser class. > Then, before too long you will be sailing fast. I recommend that to > everyone, if you want very steep learning curve. Don't be afraid to > ask advice form good sailors. (ones that are going faster than you > are). > > If I have excessive weather helm I ease off on my traveler, then > main sheet if necessary, and or trim in a bit on my Genoa. I try to > sail by the tell tails on the leech of my mainsail. Try if you can, > try to avoid bubble in the front of the mainsail, and of course, > flapping main unless wind is very strong and you don't want to > reef..yet. Fin's advice is right on. I love tillers and don't > understand why the charterers who rent larger boats can't rent them > out unless they have wheels (customers demand wheels), is it > because they are clueless about sail trim? It's very sad. > Jerry > > > . > --- On Tue, 12/11/07, Eric Jackson <er… [at] mac.com> wrote: > From: Eric Jackson <er… [at] mac.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Tiller or Wheel > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 5:23 PM > > i must admit, im still learning to sail.. and all of these things > are part of that process. > > > >

Fin Beven wrote: > > I've missed most of this tiller v. wheel thing, but a loaded up helm > is not the problem, it's the symptom. It's not about strength or > mechanical advantage. > > When the helm loads up, that's not the only place where bad trim is > creating unnecessary loads on the boat. > > If the helm is over-loaded, it's generally caused by too much pressure > on the back half of the sail plan (the main), which means there is > unnecessary pressure on all of it's components, from the gooseneck to > the mast-head down the leach to the clew connection, and to each of > the components that put pressure on the leach ... the main sheet and > its blocks, the vang and all of its hardware. > > So, choose a solution: shorten sail, flatten the sail (more outhaul, > more cunningham), ease the sheet, ease the vang, move the sail-plan > forward by easing the backstay and taking up on the headstay, or any > combination of these. Perhaps you were too polite to add "baggy old sails" to the list of problems, and buying a new mainsail as the fix. All of our sail-shape controls are designed to match the sail's draft to the conditions prevailing, and to give the sail more oomph in the forward direction than sideways. If the sail has a lousy shape, you can tweak all day and you're still going to heel too much and get pushed around. Please be polite enough not to inquire about how I know such things.... Chris Campbell

I have an original raised deck Cal 28. Due to a lack of other choices or laziness, not quite sure which, I ALWAYS sail with the largest genoa I have, the one shown here in the embedded photo. The wind in the San Diego bay usually does not requires reefing, but I have reefed on occasion. When it does kick up, and if I have not reefed, the boats heels rather quickly and the tiller becomes a battle. I can now appreciate how it becomes a brake, too. Mike K. commented my tiller fight is due to poor sail balance. Does that mean I need to ditch the genoa and/or reef more often? Or just let the main/traveler out a bit more? Sorry for the basic question. Thought I'd seize the moment. Bruce Stirling Cal 28 - Hull 82 http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:28 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller or Wheel --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29 You want a little weather helm as that is telling you there is lift from the rudder. Cals have a balanced rudder so excessive helm is a sign of poor sail balance. A wheel is nice for sailing but the tiller is more sensitive and folds up out of the way when at anchor. It's all personal preference. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 49 # 96

Oops. Spotted Fin's and Chris's notes too late. --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Fin Beven wrote: > > > > I've missed most of this tiller v. wheel thing, but a loaded up helm > > is not the problem, it's the symptom. It's not about strength or > > mechanical advantage. > > > > When the helm loads up, that's not the only place where bad trim is > > creating unnecessary loads on the boat. > > > > If the helm is over-loaded, it's generally caused by too much pressure > > on the back half of the sail plan (the main), which means there is > > unnecessary pressure on all of it's components, from the gooseneck to > > the mast-head down the leach to the clew connection, and to each of > > the components that put pressure on the leach ... the main sheet and > > its blocks, the vang and all of its hardware. > > > > So, choose a solution: shorten sail, flatten the sail (more outhaul, > > more cunningham), ease the sheet, ease the vang, move the sail-plan > > forward by easing the backstay and taking up on the headstay, or any > > combination of these. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you were too polite to add "baggy old sails" to the list of > problems, and buying a new mainsail as the fix. All of our sail-shape > controls are designed to match the sail's draft to the conditions > prevailing, and to give the sail more oomph in the forward direction > than sideways. If the sail has a lousy shape, you can tweak all day and > you're still going to heel too much and get pushed around. Please be > polite enough not to inquire about how I know such things.... > > Chris Campbell >

Bruce, your down and dirty start-off item to windward (for puffy conditions) is to rag the main when (or just before) the puff hits, and ride into the wind far enough to "backwind" the front few feet of your jib. I you can hold that line, you sit up much better. Can avoid reefing unless stronger winds persist. Upwind - up in the puffs, down in the lulls Offwind - down in the puffs, up in the lulls Also remember that the boat will not fall off (say to avoid another boat) if you don't let the sails out - no matter what you do with the tiller. This causes a lot of collisions. Yank the stick to your chest and boat just keeps on going straight or up. Depending on wind pressure, main goes way out. If really blowing, jib must go out too. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Stirling Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:31 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question I have an original raised deck Cal 28. Due to a lack of other choices or laziness, not quite sure which, I ALWAYS sail with the largest genoa I have, the one shown here in the embedded photo. The wind in the San Diego bay usually does not requires reefing, but I have reefed on occasion. When it does kick up, and if I have not reefed, the boats heels rather quickly and the tiller becomes a battle. I can now appreciate how it becomes a brake, too. Mike K. commented my tiller fight is due to poor sail balance. Does that mean I need to ditch the genoa and/or reef more often? Or just let the main/traveler out a bit more? Sorry for the basic question. Thought I'd seize the moment. Bruce Stirling Cal 28 - Hull 82 http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:28 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller or Wheel --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> , Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29 You want a little weather helm as that is telling you there is lift from the rudder. Cals have a balanced rudder so excessive helm is a sign of poor sail balance. A wheel is nice for sailing but the tiller is more sensitive and folds up out of the way when at anchor. It's all personal preference. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 49 # 96

Bottom line let the main out. Let the main out to push tiller. Trim main to pull tiller. Lock Genoa to beat to windward. Dont Rag your sails because they look old enough to blow apart into fine dental floss. (sorry) I have had the great fortune of having a great sailor sail w/ me in my cal25 beating up and down a narrow river in 30mph gusts. I only did this becasue he dared me to. If you have someone who can go out w/ you on a day that would really push you, you will be a better sailor, as I am now, and will just instinctively become a betteer "driver" in heavier winds. George To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comFrom: hu… [at] bah.comDate: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:50:39 -0500Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) Bruce, your down and dirty start-off item to windward (for puffy conditions) is to rag the main when (or just before) the puff hits, and ride into the wind far enough to "backwind" the front few feet of your jib. I you can hold that line, you sit up much better. Can avoid reefing unless stronger winds persist. Upwind - up in the puffs, down in the lulls Offwind - down in the puffs, up in the lulls Also remember that the boat will not fall off (say to avoid another boat) if you don't let the sails out - no matter what you do with the tiller. This causes a lot of collisions. Yank the stick to your chest and boat just keeps on going straight or up. Depending on wind pressure, main goes way out. If really blowing, jib must go out too. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce StirlingSent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:31 AMTo: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comSubject: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question I have an original raised deck Cal 28. Due to a lack of other choices or laziness, not quite sure which, I ALWAYS sail with the largest genoa I have, the one shown here in the embedded photo. The wind in the San Diego bay usually does not requires reefing, but I have reefed on occasion. When it does kick up, and if I have not reefed, the boats heels rather quickly and the tiller becomes a battle. I can now appreciate how it becomes a brake, too. Mike K. commented my tiller fight is due to poor sail balance. Does that mean I need to ditch the genoa and/or reef more often? Or just let the main/traveler out a bit more? Sorry for the basic question. Thought I'd seize the moment. Bruce Stirling Cal 28 - Hull 82 http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 -----Original Message-----From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mtkennedy1Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:28 PMTo: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comSubject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller or Wheel --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote:>> Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29You want a little weather helm as that is telling you there is lift from the rudder. Cals have a balanced rudder so excessive helm is a sign of poor sail balance. A wheel is nice for sailing but the tiller is more sensitive and folds up out of the way when at anchor. It's all personal preference.Mike KennedyConquest Cal 49 # 96 Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Stirling" <bruce@...> wrote: > > I have an original raised deck Cal 28. > > Due to a lack of other choices or laziness, not quite sure which, I ALWAYS > sail with the largest genoa I have, the one shown here in the embedded > photo. The wind in the San Diego bay usually does not requires reefing, > but I have reefed on occasion. When it does kick up, and if I have not > reefed, the boats heels rather quickly and the tiller becomes a battle. I > can now appreciate how it becomes a brake, too. > > Mike K. commented my tiller fight is due to poor sail balance. Does that > mean I need to ditch the genoa and/or reef more often? Or just let the > main/traveler out a bit more? The first thing you would do would be to let down the traveller but if the wind change is not just a gust, you should have a flattening reef to pull down the leech and flatten the main. The next step, I would say, is a first reef. It depends on the helm. Weather helm means the center of effort is aft and so the main is usually the culprit. You can sail with a genoa alone if you are short handed and it is breezy. The amount of helm tells you what you need to do to balance the sails. Weather helm; less main, lee helm; more main. MIke Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > Sorry for the basic question. Thought I'd seize the moment. > > Bruce Stirling > Cal 28 - Hull 82 > http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 > > >

"Let the main out to push tiller. Trim main to pull tiller." George, for this discussion we will need to develop a convention on where the driver is sitting. I guess windward is the logical assumption. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george macon Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:03 AM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) Bottom line let the main out. Let the main out to push tiller. Trim main to pull tiller. Lock Genoa to beat to windward. Dont Rag your sails because they look old enough to blow apart into fine dental floss. (sorry) I have had the great fortune of having a great sailor sail w/ me in my cal25 beating up and down a narrow river in 30mph gusts. I only did this becasue he dared me to. If you have someone who can go out w/ you on a day that would really push you, you will be a better sailor, as I am now, and will just instinctively become a betteer "driver" in heavier winds. George To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: hu… [at] bah.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:50:39 -0500 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) Bruce, your down and dirty start-off item to windward (for puffy conditions) is to rag the main when (or just before) the puff hits, and ride into the wind far enough to "backwind" the front few feet of your jib. I you can hold that line, you sit up much better. Can avoid reefing unless stronger winds persist. Upwind - up in the puffs, down in the lulls Offwind - down in the puffs, up in the lulls Also remember that the boat will not fall off (say to avoid another boat) if you don't let the sails out - no matter what you do with the tiller. This causes a lot of collisions. Yank the stick to your chest and boat just keeps on going straight or up. Depending on wind pressure, main goes way out. If really blowing, jib must go out too. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Stirling Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:31 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question I have an original raised deck Cal 28. Due to a lack of other choices or laziness, not quite sure which, I ALWAYS sail with the largest genoa I have, the one shown here in the embedded photo. The wind in the San Diego bay usually does not requires reefing, but I have reefed on occasion. When it does kick up, and if I have not reefed, the boats heels rather quickly and the tiller becomes a battle. I can now appreciate how it becomes a brake, too. Mike K. commented my tiller fight is due to poor sail balance. Does that mean I need to ditch the genoa and/or reef more often? Or just let the main/traveler out a bit more? Sorry for the basic question. Thought I'd seize the moment. Bruce Stirling Cal 28 - Hull 82 http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 <http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28> -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mtkennedy1 Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:28 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller or Wheel --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> , Randy Alcorn <saylorran@...> wrote: > > Thanks Fin, I always heard the rudder follows the boat. The rudder should not create any turbulance or drag at all. Randy CAL 2 29 You want a little weather helm as that is telling you there is lift from the rudder. Cals have a balanced rudder so excessive helm is a sign of poor sail balance. A wheel is nice for sailing but the tiller is more sensitive and folds up out of the way when at anchor. It's all personal preference. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 49 # 96 Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now! <http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_12 2007>

Bruce Stirling wrote: > > > Due to a lack of other choices or laziness, not quite sure which, I > ALWAYS sail with the largest genoa I have, the one shown here in the > embedded photo. The wind in the San Diego bay usually does not > requires reefing, but I have reefed on occasion. When it does kick > up, and if I have not reefed, the boats heels rather quickly and the > tiller becomes a battle. I can now appreciate how it becomes a > brake, too. > > Mike K. commented my tiller fight is due to poor sail balance. Does > that mean I need to ditch the genoa and/or reef more often? Bruce: While waiting for more knowledgeable folks to answer, I'll try: "yes." Ditch the big genoa. The center of effort is farther aft in it, creating more weather helm. It's probably like the great big genoa I have on my other boat: old, baggy, and relatively light, which makes it bag out even more when the wind picks up. The baggy shape (draft moving aft) makes you heel more and scoot forward less. Try a nice smaller jib when you're fighting that tiller and see if it doesn't make life more pleasant. And if the wind picks up some more and it's a struggle again, then you should have reefed half an hour ago. Chris Campbell

Sorry to report, I know not what "rag the sails" means. I thank you all for your responses. I find the wind the SD Bay a little gusty. I feel like I am constantly rocking back and forth from upright to heeling. Usually, I just let out the main a bit, as I always have the sheet in hand. At times, I have the tiller embedded into my chest on the windward side of the boat. It has to be a brake at that point. Yes, the old genoa looks like it is as old as the boat. It is very light weight. I have another large genoa, heavier, but it tore a bit so I put it away. I have a storm jib that apparently is really only meant to be used in a storm. It sucks, but I guess that's why it is called the storm jib. Anyway, I am still trying to interpret what I read, but the "rag the sails" was the big unknown. Did a quick Google and nothing jumped out at me. Thanks, again. Bruce Stirling -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of george macon Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:03 AM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) Bottom line let the main out. Let the main out to push tiller. Trim main to pull tiller. Lock Genoa to beat to windward. Dont Rag your sails because they look old enough to blow apart into fine dental floss. (sorry) I have had the great fortune of having a great sailor sail w/ me in my cal25 beating up and down a narrow river in 30mph gusts. I only did this becasue he dared me to. If you have someone who can go out w/ you on a day that would really push you, you will be a better sailor, as I am now, and will just instinctively become a betteer "driver" in heavier winds. George ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Recent Activity a.. 3New Members b.. 4New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Fashion News What's the word on fashion and style? Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. .

Sorry, Bruce. It's a term we use all the time in Annapolis. "Rag the Sails" - often said quickly and with emphasis - means let the sails way out to the point they are flapping. You are removing all the drive from the sails. Sometimes shortened to "Rag 'em". This is also used during the start of races when one is jockying for position. Never could find the damn brake pedal in the boat. The owner's manual did not say where it is. Punching up and ragging will have to suffice till I find the pedal. Punching up into the wind also has the effect of ragging the sails - unless you go too far and accidentally tack. Then there is a whole new set of problems like being in irons or having a port boat with sheets attached for starboard. But I digress. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Stirling Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:13 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) Sorry to report, I know not what "rag the sails" means. I thank you all for your responses. I find the wind the SD Bay a little gusty. I feel like I am constantly rocking back and forth from upright to heeling. Usually, I just let out the main a bit, as I always have the sheet in hand. At times, I have the tiller embedded into my chest on the windward side of the boat. It has to be a brake at that point. Yes, the old genoa looks like it is as old as the boat. It is very light weight. I have another large genoa, heavier, but it tore a bit so I put it away. I have a storm jib that apparently is really only meant to be used in a storm. It sucks, but I guess that's why it is called the storm jib. Anyway, I am still trying to interpret what I read, but the "rag the sails" was the big unknown. Did a quick Google and nothing jumped out at me. Thanks, again. Bruce Stirling -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of george macon Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:03 AM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) Bottom line let the main out. Let the main out to push tiller. Trim main to pull tiller. Lock Genoa to beat to windward. Dont Rag your sails because they look old enough to blow apart into fine dental floss. (sorry) I have had the great fortune of having a great sailor sail w/ me in my cal25 beating up and down a narrow river in 30mph gusts. I only did this becasue he dared me to. If you have someone who can go out w/ you on a day that would really push you, you will be a better sailor, as I am now, and will just instinctively become a betteer "driver" in heavier winds. George . <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=16485695/grpspId=1705065792/ msgId=9797/stime=1197471849/nc1=4767085/nc2=3848621/nc3=4507179>

well Guys...... it seems that you *stick & rudder* types will go to your grave that way. and far-be-it for this high-techy to try and change the mind of an old sea-dog. i think even Capt. Fred would sooner give-up his wife than that old stick taking up the best part of Nemesis's cockpit. i mean it's not like anyone sailing a 30 year-old Cal is going to be easily persuaded to change anything short of their BVD's once a day (and maybe not even that). but that doesn't keep me from encouraging new people to try-out new contraptions like the wheel. and talking about that, i don't mean your standard light-duty cool-looking (inshore-use only) edson wheel- steering. fiver is talking of something considerably more substantially engineered unite that *Lewmar* builds. the one i noted in my first post on the this subject, and conveniently provided a link too. and while we are on the subject; i have noted that where all of you old salts have raved on and on whenever i talk about a good wheel. none of you said one word about what you all had for rudder-stock bearing. and how that mite effect the efficiency of that stick you like so damn much???? for my part, i note that on some boats; one can take-hold of the tiller and *wiggle* it a good inch or two at it's far-end without even turning the rudder at all. so how come is it i never here any talk of rudder-bearings from you Guys....... unless of course it's something about cutting up pop- bottles and stuffing them down that gapping hole between the rudder- shaft and fiberglass tube....... are roller-bearings too high-tech too? how about bronze sleeve bearings, or is that going to somehow de- track from that all-important *stick & rudder* feeling......... PS. is this a bad time to talk about another idea of mine. a storm-main that is the full-luff, but half foot. i call it a *blade*. heavy full-batten and used mostly like a wings-flap...... fiver, Master of The "BB-54" one of the famous Cal-28 flush-decks out of Sierra-5, Papa Hotel (in days gone by) now hove-too, not 10' south of my front porch; in my Sister Karen's one acre back yard....... (built like a Battleship; sails like a Sub......)

Hey Charlie; when i was a kid sailing on the Columbia; we used to call that *full-luff*. never raced back then, just used it for brakes as you say. this as we were never short of wind out there...... **************************** --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Sorry, Bruce. It's a term we use all the time in Annapolis. "Rag the > Sails" - often said quickly and with emphasis - means let the sails way > out to the point they are flapping. You are removing all the drive from > the sails. Sometimes shortened to "Rag 'em". This is also used during > the start of races when one is jockying for position. Never could find > the damn brake pedal in the boat. The owner's manual did not say where > it is. Punching up and ragging will have to suffice till I find the > pedal. Punching up into the wind also has the effect of ragging the > sails - unless you go too far and accidentally tack. Then there is a > whole new set of problems like being in irons or having a port boat with > sheets attached for starboard. But I digress. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ________________________________ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Bruce Stirling > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:13 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) > > > Sorry to report, I know not what "rag the sails" means. > > I thank you all for your responses. > > I find the wind the SD Bay a little gusty. I feel like I am constantly > rocking back and forth from upright to heeling. Usually, I just let out > the main a bit, as I always have the sheet in hand. At times, I have > the tiller embedded into my chest on the windward side of the boat. It > has to be a brake at that point. > > Yes, the old genoa looks like it is as old as the boat. It is very > light weight. I have another large genoa, heavier, but it tore a bit so > I put it away. I have a storm jib that apparently is really only meant > to be used in a storm. It sucks, but I guess that's why it is called > the storm jib. > > Anyway, I am still trying to interpret what I read, but the "rag the > sails" was the big unknown. Did a quick Google and nothing jumped out > at me. > > Thanks, again. > > Bruce Stirling > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of george macon > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:03 AM > To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) > > > > Bottom line let the main out. > > Let the main out to push tiller. > Trim main to pull tiller. > Lock Genoa to beat to windward. > Dont Rag your sails because they look old enough to blow apart into fine > dental floss. (sorry) > > I have had the great fortune of having a great sailor sail w/ me in my > cal25 beating up and down a narrow river in 30mph gusts. I only did this > becasue he dared me to. > > If you have someone who can go out w/ you on a day that would really > push you, you will be a better sailor, as I am now, and will just > instinctively become a betteer "driver" in heavier winds. > > George > > > > ________________________________ > > . > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv? s=97359714/grpId=16485695/grpspId=1705065792/ > msgId=9797/stime=1197471849/nc1=4767085/nc2=3848621/nc3=4507179> >

slickbutfoxbuger wrote: > > > > but that doesn't keep me from encouraging new people to try-out new > contraptions like the wheel. and talking about that, i don't mean > your standard light-duty cool-looking (inshore-use only) edson wheel- > steering. fiver is talking of something considerably more > substantially engineered unite that *Lewmar* builds. the one i noted > in my first post on the this subject, and conveniently provided a > link too. > Most of my wheel-steering experience these days is aboard the local schooner, 55' LOD. It has traditional worm-gear steering from the Lunenberg Foundry in Nova Scotia. It's just like the steering gears you find in schooner wrecks on the bottom of the Lakes. This is even more substantial than any yachty thing by Lewmar. Steel, bronze, babbit. And while it's efficient and has lots of mechanical advantage, it has all the "feel" of a wheelbarrow of cement. I chartered a yacht once with a wheel and did get used to it--it's not necessarily _evil_, mind you, it's just not as nice for sailing as a tiller. Chris Campbell > > > > > __,_._,_

Re: Sail balance...This era boat is headsail driven. Conventional thinking says that the headsail, being forward of the center of lateral resistance, will drive the boat off the wind, hence decreasing your weather helm. However, since this boat is headsail driven and many headsails are oversized, say 155% of the 'J', then the headsail contributes to weather helm. You have two options: First, reef the main. This will have the greatest effect on your weather helm by moving the center of effort closer to the center of lateral resistance. Second, you can take down the 150% or 155%, if you have one up, and replace it with a 130, 120 or 110% headsail. This has less effect on reducing weather helm, but is effective on this type of boat. The above is effective heavy air management in sustained or building pressure. If, you encounter temporary (puffs), then feathering the boat towards the wind, will luff the genoa slightly. Traveller down is another excellent pressure reducing action. Last week I raced the Cortez Racing Assoc. Year End Regatta in a solid 12-18 knots. I reefed my main for the upwind portion of the race and sailed past my competitors with a full main up. Why? I had more forward drive and less healing force, not to mention the biggie, I'm not dragging the rudder sideways through the water. I shook out the reef on the reach leg and downwind. I was fortunate to win the regatta against my top two competitors: 2nd place Hunter 28.5 and 3rd place Cat 34. Hope that helps. Bill CALT/2 Elysium

Thanks, Charlie, and again, to all of the rest who responded. We used to race Mobjacks in Annapolis, Baltimore, and on the Potomac. I remember well the excitement of jockeying for position with stop watch in hand. I remember lots of jellyfish, too. That was back in 1966 and 1967. I guess we never learned our terms very well. Thanks to all. I will attempt to reduce my weather helm through the suggestions made. There were times I worried it might snap off in my hand. Bruce Stirling --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Sorry, Bruce. It's a term we use all the time in Annapolis. "Rag the > Sails" - often said quickly and with emphasis - means let the sails way > out to the point they are flapping. You are removing all the drive from > the sails. Sometimes shortened to "Rag 'em". This is also used during > the start of races when one is jockying for position. Never could find > the damn brake pedal in the boat. The owner's manual did not say where > it is. Punching up and ragging will have to suffice till I find the > pedal. Punching up into the wind also has the effect of ragging the > sails - unless you go too far and accidentally tack. Then there is a > whole new set of problems like being in irons or having a port boat with > sheets attached for starboard. But I digress. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ________________________________ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Bruce Stirling > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:13 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) > > > Sorry to report, I know not what "rag the sails" means. > > I thank you all for your responses. > > I find the wind the SD Bay a little gusty. I feel like I am constantly > rocking back and forth from upright to heeling. Usually, I just let out > the main a bit, as I always have the sheet in hand. At times, I have > the tiller embedded into my chest on the windward side of the boat. It > has to be a brake at that point. > > Yes, the old genoa looks like it is as old as the boat. It is very > light weight. I have another large genoa, heavier, but it tore a bit so > I put it away. I have a storm jib that apparently is really only meant > to be used in a storm. It sucks, but I guess that's why it is called > the storm jib. > > Anyway, I am still trying to interpret what I read, but the "rag the > sails" was the big unknown. Did a quick Google and nothing jumped out > at me. > > Thanks, again. > > Bruce Stirling > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of george macon > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:03 AM > To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sail Balance Question (Bruce) > > > > Bottom line let the main out. > > Let the main out to push tiller. > Trim main to pull tiller. > Lock Genoa to beat to windward. > Dont Rag your sails because they look old enough to blow apart into fine > dental floss. (sorry) > > I have had the great fortune of having a great sailor sail w/ me in my > cal25 beating up and down a narrow river in 30mph gusts. I only did this > becasue he dared me to. > > If you have someone who can go out w/ you on a day that would really > push you, you will be a better sailor, as I am now, and will just > instinctively become a betteer "driver" in heavier winds. > > George > > > > ________________________________ > > . > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=16485695/grpspId=1705065792/ > msgId=9797/stime=1197471849/nc1=4767085/nc2=3848621/nc3=4507179> >

I carry a #2 (135%) and #3 (110%) genoa that I use when the wind picks up. They don't get tons of use, so they last a long time. My AP 150% is pretty much shot after two full years of racing (summer highpoint and winter frostbite). I really want to find a good storm jib for the Cal 25...... Cheers, Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:35 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sail Balance Question Re: Sail balance...This era boat is headsail driven. Conventional thinking says that the headsail, being forward of the center of lateral resistance, will drive the boat off the wind, hence decreasing your weather helm. However, since this boat is headsail driven and many headsails are oversized, say 155% of the 'J', then the headsail contributes to weather helm. You have two options: First, reef the main. This will have the greatest effect on your weather helm by moving the center of effort closer to the center of lateral resistance. Second, you can take down the 150% or 155%, if you have one up, and replace it with a 130, 120 or 110% headsail. This has less effect on reducing weather helm, but is effective on this type of boat. The above is effective heavy air management in sustained or building pressure. If, you encounter temporary (puffs), then feathering the boat towards the wind, will luff the genoa slightly. Traveller down is another excellent pressure reducing action. Last week I raced the Cortez Racing Assoc. Year End Regatta in a solid 12-18 knots. I reefed my main for the upwind portion of the race and sailed past my competitors with a full main up. Why? I had more forward drive and less healing force, not to mention the biggie, I'm not dragging the rudder sideways through the water. I shook out the reef on the reach leg and downwind. I was fortunate to win the regatta against my top two competitors: 2nd place Hunter 28.5 and 3rd place Cat 34. Hope that helps. Bill CALT/2 Elysium

As long as I am expressing my lack of knowledge for all to see, can you tell me what does it really mean when you refer to your number 2, number, etc., jibs or genoas? Or is it improperly used on genoas? This has never been very clear to me. I do not know if I have these, or not. Like I didn't know if I was ragging my sails. The unknown can be distressing. Bruce Stirling --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Scott Sauvageot" <rxnumbercruncher@...> wrote: > > I carry a #2 (135%) and #3 (110%) genoa that I use when the wind picks up. They don't get tons of use, so they last a long time. My AP 150% is pretty much shot after two full years of racing (summer highpoint and winter frostbite). > > I really want to find a good storm jib for the Cal 25...... > > Cheers, > Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:35 PM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sail Balance Question > > > Re: Sail balance...This era boat is headsail driven. Conventional > thinking says that the headsail, being forward of the center of > lateral resistance, will drive the boat off the wind, hence > decreasing your weather helm. However, since this boat is headsail > driven and many headsails are oversized, say 155% of the 'J', then > the headsail contributes to weather helm. You have two options: > First, reef the main. This will have the greatest effect on your > weather helm by moving the center of effort closer to the center of > lateral resistance. Second, you can take down the 150% or 155%, if > you have one up, and replace it with a 130, 120 or 110% headsail. > This has less effect on reducing weather helm, but is effective on > this type of boat. > > The above is effective heavy air management in sustained or building > pressure. If, you encounter temporary (puffs), then feathering the > boat towards the wind, will luff the genoa slightly. Traveller down > is another excellent pressure reducing action. > > Last week I raced the Cortez Racing Assoc. Year End Regatta in a > solid 12-18 knots. I reefed my main for the upwind portion of the > race and sailed past my competitors with a full main up. Why? I had > more forward drive and less healing force, not to mention the > biggie, I'm not dragging the rudder sideways through the water. I > shook out the reef on the reach leg and downwind. I was fortunate to > win the regatta against my top two competitors: 2nd place Hunter > 28.5 and 3rd place Cat 34. Hope that helps. > Bill > CALT/2 > Elysium >

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Stirling" <bruce@...> wrote: > > As long as I am expressing my lack of knowledge for all to see, can > you tell me what does it really mean when you refer to your number 2, > number, etc., jibs or genoas? Or is it improperly used on genoas? > This has never been very clear to me. I do not know if I have these, > or not. Like I didn't know if I was ragging my sails. The unknown > can be distressing. > > Bruce Stirling > > The largest sail you have is your #1. You may have as many as three #1s, a heavy, a light and a drifter. We had those on the Choate 40. The #2 is a smaller headsail and usually heavy material for wind ranges too high for the #1. If the #1 is a 150%, the #2 may be 110% or 120 %. The #3 is the next smaller. It is often a blade with full height and a 90% LP. Older boats with low aspect rigs, like the Cals, may instead have a "mule" which is a 120% headsail with a short height. From there, you usually go to a storm jib. I had my #2 and #3 modified for Transpac by putting a second clew cringle above the regular one so the sail could be sheeted as a blast reacher. By sheeting from the upper cringle, we could set the sail for heavy air at an apparent wind of 45 degrees to 75 degrees and not have the top twist off. We used those two sails a lot the first few days when we were close reaching in 25 knots. A jib top is a full size genoa with a high clew for reaching. Often a staysail is set under it for a double head rig (also called a cutter rig). We used that too as the wind gradually pulled aft. We got a jib top with this boat but it was rotten. I like that sail and would like to find one. On your Cal 28, I would probably call your #2 a "lapper" which is about 110% and there would probably be no use for a #3. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "mtkennedy1" <mtkennedy1@...> wrote: > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Stirling" <bruce@> wrote: > > > > As long as I am expressing my lack of knowledge for all to see, can > > you tell me what does it really mean when you refer to your number 2, > > number, etc., jibs or genoas? Or is it improperly used on genoas? > > This has never been very clear to me. I do not know if I have these, > > or not. Like I didn't know if I was ragging my sails. The unknown > > can be distressing. > > > > Bruce Stirling > > > > > The largest sail you have is your #1. You may have as many as three #1s, a heavy, a light > and a drifter. We had those on the Choate 40. The #2 is a smaller headsail and usually > heavy material for wind ranges too high for the #1. If the #1 is a 150%, the #2 may be > 110% or 120 %. The #3 is the next smaller. It is often a blade with full height and a 90% LP. > Older boats with low aspect rigs, like the Cals, may instead have a "mule" which is a 120% > headsail with a short height. From there, you usually go to a storm jib. I had my #2 and #3 > modified for Transpac by putting a second clew cringle above the regular one so the sail > could be sheeted as a blast reacher. By sheeting from the upper cringle, we could set the > sail for heavy air at an apparent wind of 45 degrees to 75 degrees and not have the top > twist off. We used those two sails a lot the first few days when we were close reaching in > 25 knots. A jib top is a full size genoa with a high clew for reaching. Often a staysail is set > under it for a double head rig (also called a cutter rig). We used that too as the wind > gradually pulled aft. > > We got a jib top with this boat but it was rotten. I like that sail and would like to find one. > On your Cal 28, I would probably call your #2 a "lapper" which is about 110% and there > would probably be no use for a #3. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > Mike, I am very glad to hear you use the term "Lapper". I have been using this term for my #2 and everyone in my sailing circle laughs at this term because they have never heard this before. Do you know any more about this? I would love to educate myself as well as those that are joking about my use of this terminology. Thanks, Patrick Fiega L'Esprit Libre, Cal 40 #137 Kemah, TX

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Fiega" <pfiega@...> wrote: > snipped > > Mike, > > I am very glad to hear you use the term "Lapper". I have been using > this term for my #2 and everyone in my sailing circle laughs at this > term because they have never heard this before. Do you know any more > about this? I would love to educate myself as well as those that are > joking about my use of this terminology. I use the term for a sail that is smaller than a genoa and larger then a "working jib" which usually means a 100% jib. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > Thanks, > > Patrick Fiega > L'Esprit Libre, Cal 40 #137 > Kemah, TX >

Posted by Bill: Re: Sail balance...This era boat is headsail driven. Conventional thinking says that the headsail, being forward of the center of lateral resistance, will drive the boat off the wind, hence decreasing your weather helm. However, since this boat is headsail driven and many headsails are oversized, say 155% of the 'J', then the headsail contributes to weather helm. You have two options: First, reef the main. This will have the greatest effect on your weather helm by moving the center of effort closer to the center of lateral resistance. Second, you can take down the 150% or 155%, if you have one up, and replace it with a 130, 120 or 110% headsail. This has less effect on reducing weather helm, but is effective on this type of boat. Our Cal 33 came with a 150 roller furling Jib. Since we were new to sailing and our only "experience" was the sailing school we had taken a couple of years earlier, we tried to emulate the "experienced" sailors on the river. Other than the racing fleet, most cruising boats were operating on jib only. Hey it sounded great! KISS theory at work. One line to pull at time. Point the boat where you want and trim till it got quiet. The boat was a bear in a breeze, and a gusty day was not fun. Now that I have "knowledgeable experience" and have learned how to trim a boat a little better, we play with all the sails. Kinda like golf, you are allowed 14 clubs, I try to use them all during each hole on the course (g) One of the improvements we made when buying new sails, we down sized the jib to a 135. Now the boat sails much better, and it is easier to trim to balance. Without the headsail adding to the weather helm trimming the boat is a little more intuitive. YMMV John Cal 33

I agree with what Mike wrote, until he got to his last phrase: "and there would probably be no use for a #3." Over her 42 years, Radiant has had all of these sails, but now if I could only have two headsails, they would be a medium-weight #1 (155% LP) and a 90% #3. As the #3 can be sheeted in-board of the shrouds, it has proven to be a far more efficient sail than a #2 or a short-hoist "mule". The #1 can handle wind ranges up to 15 knots, and the #3 can take all of the wind in which I choose to sail. Note 1. When sailors use the percentage (%) figure, this is relative to the distance between the headstay and the front of the mast, also known on rating certificates as "J". On a Cal-40, the "J" is approximately 15'. It is also common for this to be the same length as the spinnaker pole. Note 2. "LP". This is the length between the clew and a point along the luff that gives the shortest distance to the luff. In other words, if you laid your headsail out flat, the distance from the clew to the tack might be 10', but as you move the measuring tape up the luff a few feet, that distance will reduce, possibly to 9', before it starts to increase. This sail would have a foot dimension of 10', and an LP of 9'. For this reason, a common dimension for a #3 is 90% LP, as this results in a sail with a foot length that would approximately reach the mast, but would not overlap it. Boats with "swept-back" spreaders can handle a slightly larger (100%) #3. #1 - full size permitted by class or rating (155% under PHRF SoCal) #2 - generally smaller than the #1, but larger than 100% #3 - typically between 90% and 100%. #4 - smaller than 90%. #5 - much smaller than 90%, a true "storm sail". Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: mtkennedy1<mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:34 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sail Numbers Question --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, "Bruce Stirling" <bruce@...> wrote: > > As long as I am expressing my lack of knowledge for all to see, can > you tell me what does it really mean when you refer to your number 2, > number, etc., jibs or genoas? Or is it improperly used on genoas? > This has never been very clear to me. I do not know if I have these, > or not. Like I didn't know if I was ragging my sails. The unknown > can be distressing. > > Bruce Stirling > > The largest sail you have is your #1. You may have as many as three #1s, a heavy, a light and a drifter. We had those on the Choate 40. The #2 is a smaller headsail and usually heavy material for wind ranges too high for the #1. If the #1 is a 150%, the #2 may be 110% or 120 %. The #3 is the next smaller. It is often a blade with full height and a 90% LP. Older boats with low aspect rigs, like the Cals, may instead have a "mule" which is a 120% headsail with a short height. From there, you usually go to a storm jib. I had my #2 and #3 modified for Transpac by putting a second clew cringle above the regular one so the sail could be sheeted as a blast reacher. By sheeting from the upper cringle, we could set the sail for heavy air at an apparent wind of 45 degrees to 75 degrees and not have the top twist off. We used those two sails a lot the first few days when we were close reaching in 25 knots. A jib top is a full size genoa with a high clew for reaching. Often a staysail is set under it for a double head rig (also called a cutter rig). We used that too as the wind gradually pulled aft. We got a jib top with this boat but it was rotten. I like that sail and would like to find one. On your Cal 28, I would probably call your #2 a "lapper" which is about 110% and there would probably be no use for a #3. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fin Beven" <finbeven@...> wrote: > > I agree with what Mike wrote, until he got to his last phrase: "and there would probably be no use for a #3." He wrote he had a storm jib. A lot would depend on what that was. On a Cal 28, especially one cruising all the time, I would think a #1, a lapper and a working jib would be the best use of resources. I think of a #3 as a high tech sail with smaller sheeting angles than the usual working jib sheeted to the rail. If he was going to race, I'd agree. Most people with a Cal 28 who don't plan to race, will have a #1 and a working jib, I should think. > > Over her 42 years, Radiant has had all of these sails, but now if I could only have two headsails, they would be a medium-weight #1 (155% LP) and a 90% #3. As the #3 can be sheeted in-board of the shrouds, it has proven to be a far more efficient sail than a #2 or a short-hoist "mule". The #1 can handle wind ranges up to 15 knots, and the #3 can take all of the wind in which I choose to sail. I think that's good advice for anyone racing, especially a Cal 40 or other boat that size. Our new #1 is not kevlar but I have been told that is has a much larger wind range than the older #1s and can be used at apparent from about 5 to 20. At that point, I would also go to a #3 if I'm racing. We won't be doing much racing but may do some as we get the boat settled in. Somewhere on the bottom of the channel between Catalina and Santa Barbara Island, is a high tech main and #3 along with a mast and boom from the Choate 40. The bottom 10 feet of the mast is all that's missing as they brought that much home. It was one of those calls I used to get when the boat raced but I couldn't go. "Dad, we lost the rig." "Dad, we blew out the 3/4 chute." "Dad, we hit the rock in the LA entrance." I'm surprised Mike Jr hasn't weighed in on the sail question. He's the racer in the family now. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

My #3 is incredibly low-tech, cross-cut paneled dacron. I like it so much that if I were doing it again, I'd do it in 3DL Kevlar. My sense is that a "working jib" (which seems to be the same sail, the same dimensions as a #3) sheeted to the rail on beamy boats like Cal-boats, would would be almost worthless for going t windward. The sheeting angle from the bow to the point just outboard of the shrouds on our pre-IOR Lapworth Cals is approximately 20 degrees, so wide as to nearly preclude actually going to windward. But it would reach very nicely sheeted out there. It would be interesting to see one of these Hoyt Jib-booms on a "Cal". In the "old days", I think that they were called a "club-footed jib". http://www.alerionexpress.net/id87.html<http://www.alerionexpress.net/id87.html> Just my thoughts. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: mtkennedy1<mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sail Numbers Question --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, "Fin Beven" <finbeven@...> wrote: > > I agree with what Mike wrote, until he got to his last phrase: "and there would probably be no use for a #3." He wrote he had a storm jib. A lot would depend on what that was. On a Cal 28, especially one cruising all the time, I would think a #1, a lapper and a working jib would be the best use of resources. I think of a #3 as a high tech sail with smaller sheeting angles than the usual working jib sheeted to the rail. If he was going to race, I'd agree. Most people with a Cal 28 who don't plan to race, will have a #1 and a working jib, I should think. > > Over her 42 years, Radiant has had all of these sails, but now if I could only have two headsails, they would be a medium-weight #1 (155% LP) and a 90% #3. As the #3 can be sheeted in-board of the shrouds, it has proven to be a far more efficient sail than a #2 or a short-hoist "mule". The #1 can handle wind ranges up to 15 knots, and the #3 can take all of the wind in which I choose to sail. I think that's good advice for anyone racing, especially a Cal 40 or other boat that size. Our new #1 is not kevlar but I have been told that is has a much larger wind range than the older #1s and can be used at apparent from about 5 to 20. At that point, I would also go to a #3 if I'm racing. We won't be doing much racing but may do some as we get the boat settled in. Somewhere on the bottom of the channel between Catalina and Santa Barbara Island, is a high tech main and #3 along with a mast and boom from the Choate 40. The bottom 10 feet of the mast is all that's missing as they brought that much home. It was one of those calls I used to get when the boat raced but I couldn't go. "Dad, we lost the rig." "Dad, we blew out the 3/4 chute." "Dad, we hit the rock in the LA entrance." I'm surprised Mike Jr hasn't weighed in on the sail question. He's the racer in the family now. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "mtkennedy1" <mtkennedy1@...> wrote: > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fin Beven" <finbeven@> wrote: > > > > I think that's good advice for anyone racing, especially a Cal 40 or other boat that size. > Our new #1 is not kevlar but I have been told that is has a much larger wind range than > the older #1s and can be used at apparent from about 5 to 20. At that point, I would also > go to a #3 if I'm racing. We won't be doing much racing but may do some as we get the > boat settled in. > > Somewhere on the bottom of the channel between Catalina and Santa Barbara Island, is a > high tech main and #3 along with a mast and boom from the Choate 40. The bottom 10 > feet of the mast is all that's missing as they brought that much home. It was one of those > calls I used to get when the boat raced but I couldn't go. "Dad, we lost the rig." "Dad, we > blew out the 3/4 chute." "Dad, we hit the rock in the LA entrance." > > I'm surprised Mike Jr hasn't weighed in on the sail question. He's the racer in the family > now. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > Dad's right. We had a lot of fun with that boat (some of which involved breaking things and some of which involved breaking things while Dad was working-I can still point out the phone booth at the Isthmus where I called Dad to tell him the boat was safe on a mooring there, but the mast and new sails were about 1/2 way to Santa Barbara Island. Good times). Now I'm the age Dad was then, and work as hard a she did then, and so don;t get to post much. But I digress... A modern #3 blade will be full hoist and sheets to right around the shrouds. As Fin points out, it has a tighter sheeting angle for better pointing. Also, much faster/easier to tack. Thus more efficient for modern bouy racing. Not as good for Cal boat type uses because 1. Higher aspect (tall/skinny) profile sails have higher loads, requiring higher tech materials which don't last as long; 2. With a tall skinny sails, as soon as you ease off to reach you lose the top of the sail and the leach and the sail loses most of its power right away-very efficient for pointing, but very inefficient for reaching. We gentlemanly Cal owners do more reaching and less pointing/tacking on our own boats, and leave the purchasing of carbon hulls and Kevlar and Pentax sails to others (then we go crew for those others). For a Cal 28 with Dacron sails and a gentlemanly agenda of reaching and not tacking too often is better off with a Dacron sail around 130% of LP (call it a lapper or a #2), and perhaps a storm jib if you think that you may do something crazy like sail over the horizon. The laper adn definitely the storm jib will be lower aspect (shorter hoist, higher clew) than a high tech #3 because Dacron would hold its shape cut like that, and you wouldn't be so worried about the advantages of that type of sail anyway. You sailmaker should be happy to have a look at your sails, make recommendations (but be forearned the recommendation wll be that you need a new sail), and recut as necessary. For a lapper/storm jib, just buy a dacron genoa in fairly decent shape and have it cut down. If your sailmaker won't give you that level of service, I'd be happy to refer you to one who will. All that said, if/when Dad and I get it in our heads to challenge Radiant, Callisto, et al around the bouys, a high tech/high aspect blade #3 will be high on the shopping list, especially in LA Harbor/Long Beach. Mike Kennedy Jr. Cal 40 #96 Conquest