Re: [Cal_Boats] Re:Jerry, water pumps

Jerry, I can't believe that you got 3 years out of an impeller. Serves you right. That's a yearly maintence item, I use mine for 2 seasons and throw it away, but I only sail for 5 months. I remove it when I lay up the boat, and install a new one in the spring if it's time. If you leave the impeller in the engine over the winter it is fixed in one position and the vanes get bent for that time. Sometimes they develop cracks, and the next thing can be failure. If you remove it it reverts to normal, not compressed status, and will be ready for use next season. I still only use it for 2 seasons. Cheap insurance. Yes, I had one fail, and the errant vane did indeed lodge itself in the outlet of the pump, and of course the engine did overheat. I eventually found said vane, and now I am one with my A4. David Dobbs, Cal29 411 From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:38:06 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Need some advice.(ron and rose) That 1 HP per foot is BS. My Cal 24 runs wonderfully on a Suzuki 4 and the OB pushes it to within a few tenths of a knot shy of hull speed. Plus it is light to lift and replace for racing purposes, and very reliable. I learned this year that you should replace your impeller at least once every four years, preferably maybe once every three years to be safe. My impeller came apart and made the OB overheat and conk out, with one blade blocking the water inlet to the cooling system. Thankfully I was motoring at half speed at the time, and was headed to start of race and got a tow. Luckily, no damage was done to the motor as far as I can tell. If the Atomic 4 runs I'd leave well enough alone. But the Atomic 4 is an inefficient match, generally, to the propeller. The 20 hp Diesel would be perfect. Also, OB's on the transom are pretty ineffective in a sea swells, the prop will continually come out of the water, and sometimes over-spin and tear up your rubber prop bushing, then the motor will run but the propeller won't. Uggh! Jerry --- On Tue, 12/18/07, scahill57 <scahill57@yahoo. com> wrote: From: scahill57 <scahill57@yahoo. com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Need some advice. To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 10:43 AM --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "Ron & Rose" <boatworksrnr@ ...> wrote: > > Hi, We own a 1970 Cal 34, with a 30 hp atomic 4. I have a guy trying to > sell me a 20 hp yanmar diesel with tranny etc. He says it will drop > right in. I have seen some raised eye browse by others. Also, it's > our understanding that "rule of thumb" is 1 hp, per foot. Is 20 hp > gonna be sufficient to push our 34' boat? I'm more concerned about an > emergency situation, than just getting in and out of the slip, or > motoring around. > Any advice, suggestions would be appreciated. This is our first boat, > so we're a little light on experience. > Thanks, > Ron & Rose > My Cal 28 was partially submerged prior to my buying it and the A-4 was a solid block of rust. I bought a used replacement but since my primary use of a motor is to get in and out of the marina I, (actually my wife) decided to skip the inboard and hang a 10 hp Honda outboard off the transom. There are at least a dozen boats here ranging from 24 to 34 ft that use outboards in the 7.5 to 15 hp range and they seem to do quite well. That probably wouldn't suit your purposes if you are going to the Sea of Cortez, but the Cal 28 at least actually came with an outboard option. I think in many cases, the biggest difference may be in how ya recharge the batteries--- the inboard has to be better than what I'll have to do, but I also gain a huge amount of interior storage. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

I think the impeller was a good 7 or 8+ years old when it gave up the ghost . The Suzuki was a used engine when I bought it and it had a burned up prop bushing, the weld between the bronze insert and the rubber insert had failed, its owner complained that it wouldn't push his fishing boat as a trolling motor. It is a 1998 longshaft, and I told the guy's wife not to waste time with a previous caller who wanted to look at it, that I'd buy it sight unseen...how could I resist, it was only $300!! They said impellers last longer when you use the outboard more frequently. But I think three is safe number of years for an impeller, but it can't hurt to change it more often. More than four or five years and you're living dangerously. My impeller didn't so much wear out as maybe become brittle and break a fin loose, with the broken off fin blocking the tube up to the cylinder head. The engine gradually slowed down, quit, and then blew steam out when I tried to restart. That's when i knew I had me a failed impeller. Oh, I'd planned on replacing it, sooner or later, but the years went by. I can tell you, I put a lot of miles on her before it happened. She can push my Cal 24 at 4.5 knots at less than half throttle, 4 knots at about quarter throttle, and boy does it get great mileage then! I can't say enough good things about Suzuki outboards! Rugged! Reliable! I did learn one thing tho. It needs to be choked to start it, but if it doesn't catch after three or four plus pulls, you've flooded the motor, so, switch off the choke and open the throttle wide, being ready to close down the throttle when she catches. I bet this is true of a lot of outboards. Jerry --- On Tue, 12/18/07, david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re:Jerry, water pumps To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 7:37 PM Jerry, I can't believe that you got 3 years out of an impeller. Serves you right. That's a yearly maintence item, I use mine for 2 seasons and throw it away, but I only sail for 5 months. I remove it when I lay up the boat, and install a new one in the spring if it's time. If you leave the impeller in the engine over the winter it is fixed in one position and the vanes get bent for that time. Sometimes they develop cracks, and the next thing can be failure. If you remove it it reverts to normal, not compressed status, and will be ready for use next season. I still only use it for 2 seasons. Cheap insurance. Yes, I had one fail, and the errant vane did indeed lodge itself in the outlet of the pump, and of course the engine did overheat. I eventually found said vane, and now I am one with my A4. David Dobbs, Cal29 411 From: Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:38:06 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Need some advice.(ron and rose) That 1 HP per foot is BS. My Cal 24 runs wonderfully on a Suzuki 4 and the OB pushes it to within a few tenths of a knot shy of hull speed. Plus it is light to lift and replace for racing purposes, and very reliable. I learned this year that you should replace your impeller at least once every four years, preferably maybe once every three years to be safe. My impeller came apart and made the OB overheat and conk out, with one blade blocking the water inlet to the cooling system. Thankfully I was motoring at half speed at the time, and was headed to start of race and got a tow. Luckily, no damage was done to the motor as far as I can tell. If the Atomic 4 runs I'd leave well enough alone. But the Atomic 4 is an inefficient match, generally, to the propeller. The 20 hp Diesel would be perfect. Also, OB's on the transom are pretty ineffective in a sea swells, the prop will continually come out of the water, and sometimes over-spin and tear up your rubber prop bushing, then the motor will run but the propeller won't. Uggh! Jerry --- On Tue, 12/18/07, scahill57 <scahill57@yahoo. com> wrote: From: scahill57 <scahill57@yahoo. com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Need some advice. To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 10:43 AM --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com , "Ron & Rose" <boatworksrnr@ ...> wrote: > > Hi, We own a 1970 Cal 34, with a 30 hp atomic 4. I have a guy trying to > sell me a 20 hp yanmar diesel with tranny etc. He says it will drop > right in. I have seen some raised eye browse by others. Also, it's > our understanding that "rule of thumb" is 1 hp, per foot. Is 20 hp > gonna be sufficient to push our 34' boat? I'm more concerned about an > emergency situation, than just getting in and out of the slip, or > motoring around. > Any advice, suggestions would be appreciated. This is our first boat, > so we're a little light on experience. > Thanks, > Ron & Rose > My Cal 28 was partially submerged prior to my buying it and the A-4 was a solid block of rust. I bought a used replacement but since my primary use of a motor is to get in and out of the marina I, (actually my wife) decided to skip the inboard and hang a 10 hp Honda outboard off the transom. There are at least a dozen boats here ranging from 24 to 34 ft that use outboards in the 7.5 to 15 hp range and they seem to do quite well. That probably wouldn't suit your purposes if you are going to the Sea of Cortez, but the Cal 28 at least actually came with an outboard option. I think in many cases, the biggest difference may be in how ya recharge the batteries--- the inboard has to be better than what I'll have to do, but I also gain a huge amount of interior storage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

david dobbs wrote: > Jerry, > I can't believe that you got 3 years out of an impeller. Serves you > right. That's a yearly maintence item, I use mine for 2 seasons and > throw it away, but I only sail for 5 months. I remove it when I lay > up the boat, and install a new one in the spring if it's time. If you > leave the impeller in the engine over the winter it is fixed in one > position and the vanes get bent for that time. Sometimes they develop > cracks, and the next thing can be failure. Actually, there's a difference in outboard and inboard engine impellers. Jerry was talking about outboards and David is talking about inboards. The outboards I've serviced have much larger impellers and their vanes bend less. I'm just guessing that this is intended to allow longer lives. Most outboard motors have extended periods of non-use--a lot of them are stored in a garage or basement and get hauled out for a fishing trip once a year. The manufacturers realize that their customers would be very unhappy if they had to have the water pumps serviced annually. In my experience, they can last for years or decades. Inboards tend to get more consistent use, especially for you folks where the water doesn't freeze over. Inboard engines use those little tiny impellers with vanes that bend a lot. Those skinny, bent-over vanes do crack and fail with extended sitting. Maybe we should encourage the inboard engine makers to mount outboard-style water pumps with bigger impellers and less bending. Chris Campbell

Chris, I think as far as impellers go, one should make a case by case basis for comparison. The rubber fin impellers have to bend a bit to create enough tension to seal against the volute walls to pump. Impellers will vary from engine to engine and mfg to mfg, and even from one production run to another. There is also differences in the compounding of the rubber used to make the impellers from batch to batch, and also there is the effect of water chemistry on the impeller, for example, pH and salt vs. fresh. So, I'd say it is smart to be on the conservative side. While yearly impeller change is maybe excessive, some outboard shops actually recommend it, especially where the motors are infrequently used and my develop a 'set' in their shape because of it. I know now that five years maximum is the limit I'm willing to go on impellers, as I was quite lucky to survive snapping a blade, plus being in port with a quick available tow/ running at half speed/buddies along side on way to a race. If I was becalmed 100 miles from home base, or was running the engine full throttle, it would have been a much more severe outcome. I could have been stuck somewhere with a seized engine...maybe even lose the boat! So I'd recommend 3 or 4 years to err on the safe side. It takes about an hour to do it, once you've done it before, and the part is inexpensive compared to what failure could cost, loss of motor boat, and who knows, life? Why risk it? I'd say also the an outboard pump impeller is in a housing above the prop, therefore kept immersed in water, and runs far cooler than if it was mounted on engine inside a boat. Also less likely to run dry, which will really eat up an impeller. I'm guessing a rubber vane impeller is used on marine engines because it is self priming, which means it will be empty of water when it starts up. Jerry --- On Wed, 12/19/07, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re:Jerry, water pumps To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007, 6:07 AM david dobbs wrote: Jerry, I can't believe that you got 3 years out of an impeller. Serves you right. That's a yearly maintence item, I use mine for 2 seasons and throw it away, but I only sail for 5 months. I remove it when I lay up the boat, and install a new one in the spring if it's time. If you leave the impeller in the engine over the winter it is fixed in one position and the vanes get bent for that time. Sometimes they develop cracks, and the next thing can be failure. Actually, there's a difference in outboard and inboard engine impellers. Jerry was talking about outboards and David is talking about inboards. The outboards I've serviced have much larger impellers and their vanes bend less. I'm just guessing that this is intended to allow longer lives. Most outboard motors have extended periods of non-use--a lot of them are stored in a garage or basement and get hauled out for a fishing trip once a year. The manufacturers realize that their customers would be very unhappy if they had to have the water pumps serviced annually. In my experience, they can last for years or decades. Inboards tend to get more consistent use, especially for you folks where the water doesn't freeze over. Inboard engines use those little tiny impellers with vanes that bend a lot. Those skinny, bent-over vanes do crack and fail with extended sitting. Maybe we should encourage the inboard engine makers to mount outboard-style water pumps with bigger impellers and less bending. Chris Campbell

Gerald Sobel wrote: > > Chris, > I think as far as impellers go, one should make a case by case basis > for comparison. The rubber fin impellers have to bend a bit to create > enough tension to seal against the volute walls to pump. Impellers > will vary from engine to engine and mfg to mfg, and even from one > production run to another. There is also differences in the > compounding of the rubber used to make the impellers from batch to > batch, and also there is the effect of water chemistry on the > impeller, for example, pH and salt vs. fresh. So, I'd say it is smart > to be on the conservative side. While yearly impeller change is maybe > excessive, some outboard shops actually recommend it, especially where > the motors are infrequently used and my develop a 'set' in their shape > because of it. I know now that five years maximum is the limit I'm > willing to go on impellers, as I was quite lucky to survive snapping a > blade, plus being in port with a quick available tow/ running at half > speed/buddies along side on way to a race. If I was becalmed 100 miles > from home base, or was running the engine full throttle, it would have > been a much more severe outcome. I could have been stuck somewhere > with a seized engine...maybe even lose the boat! So I'd recommend 3 > or 4 years to err on the safe side. It takes about an hour to do it, > once you've done it before, and the part is inexpensive compared to > what failure could cost, loss of motor boat, and who knows, life? Why > risk it? > Good observations. One reason to risk it is that the @#$%&**!!! housing screws can seize up. I've got one old OB on which I can't touch 'em. And in fresh water, impellers seem to have very long lives. > > > I'd say also the an outboard pump impeller is in a housing above the > prop, therefore kept immersed in water, and runs far cooler than if it > was mounted on engine inside a boat. Also less likely to run dry, > which will really eat up an impeller. I'm guessing a rubber vane > impeller is used on marine engines because it is self priming, which > means it will be empty of water when it starts up. > Unless the engine is below water line, and even if not, the pump probably holds enough water to provide some lubrication on start-up. For use after a long period out of the water, as on trailered boats, I've seen suggestions that you should take the pump cover off and grease up the impeller so it doesn't burn itself up before the water gets there. I've got an old Volvo I-O runabout that I've done that on--just tucked a bit of lubricant in. Chris Campbell >

Chris, I applied silicone grease to all the screw and bolt threads before I reassembled the impeller housing. After ten years the fittings weren't too badly stuck. The silicone grease I use is a swim pool product for lubricating rubber seals in three-way valves, and it works great as a di-electric between SS fittings and aluminum extrusions on sailboats. Another trick would be to use teflon pipe seal tape on the threads, and teflon thread paste would probably work well also. If you insert a s.s. sheet metal screw into an aluminum spar to attach something, without using a di-electric paste, when you take it apart you'll have a large white encrusted hole larger than the original and incapable of holding anything. Jerry --- On Wed, 12/19/07, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: pump impellers/ engine cooling(Chris) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007, 12:59 PM Gerald Sobel wrote: Chris, I think as far as impellers go, one should make a case by case basis for comparison. The rubber fin impellers have to bend a bit to create enough tension to seal against the volute walls to pump. Impellers will vary from engine to engine and mfg to mfg, and even from one production run to another. There is also differences in the compounding of the rubber used to make the impellers from batch to batch, and also there is the effect of water chemistry on the impeller, for example, pH and salt vs. fresh. So, I'd say it is smart to be on the conservative side. While yearly impeller change is maybe excessive, some outboard shops actually recommend it, especially where the motors are infrequently used and my develop a 'set' in their shape because of it. I know now that five years maximum is the limit I'm willing to go on impellers, as I was quite lucky to survive snapping a blade, plus being in port with a quick available tow/ running at half speed/buddies along side on way to a race. If I was becalmed 100 miles from home base, or was running the engine full throttle, it would have been a much more severe outcome. I could have been stuck somewhere with a seized engine...maybe even lose the boat! So I'd recommend 3 or 4 years to err on the safe side. It takes about an hour to do it, once you've done it before, and the part is inexpensive compared to what failure could cost, loss of motor boat, and who knows, life? Why risk it? Good observations. One reason to risk it is that the @#$%&**!!! housing screws can seize up. I've got one old OB on which I can't touch 'em. And in fresh water, impellers seem to have very long lives. I'd say also the an outboard pump impeller is in a housing above the prop, therefore kept immersed in water, and runs far cooler than if it was mounted on engine inside a boat. Also less likely to run dry, which will really eat up an impeller. I'm guessing a rubber vane impeller is used on marine engines because it is self priming, which means it will be empty of water when it starts up. Unless the engine is below water line, and even if not, the pump probably holds enough water to provide some lubrication on start-up. For use after a long period out of the water, as on trailered boats, I've seen suggestions that you should take the pump cover off and grease up the impeller so it doesn't burn itself up before the water gets there. I've got an old Volvo I-O runabout that I've done that on--just tucked a bit of lubricant in. Chris Campbell