Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

8 messages2008-01-11 19:31 UTCthrough 2008-01-13 01:47 UTC

Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

Donald Dutton2008-01-11 19:31 UTC

It would seem, from my experience, that government is best when it leaves the actual accomplishment of tasks to the competing private sector. The building of golf courses, marinas, stadiums, etc. by government bureaucracy almost always leads to mismanagement due to several factors the most notable of which is lack of expertise in the field. No one on the city council of San Leandro is an active boater nor do any of them have a thorough understanding of what a boater needs. They just thought it would be a cash cow to develop a marina for the city. We lived in High Bridge, NJ when a particular mayor thought the same thing would come of the town building a golf course. It was going to save the town and lower taxes, etc. etc. Well, that mayor is gone, no one really knows how to run a golf course business, and the town's tax rate has increased. The solution seems painfully obvious. Should the State of Hawaii, the town of San Leandro, or the city of Los Angeles want to provide it's citizens with the recreational, tourist, and revenue generating activities of a marina, then they should either hire or induce a private enterprise with specific expertise to accomplish the task. Running a marina by government, which constantly sees turnover of involved individuals, most of whom have no specific skills in managing a marina, is foolhardy at best and most often damaging. If you want a specific example in California similar to the one in the link here about Hawaii, just visit Moss Landing Harbor in the middle of Monterey Bay. This facility is falling apart, has electrical and water facilities right out of the dark ages and no one cares. Because it is run by the State of California and it makes an operating profit, nothing about the condition of the marina or whether it competes in the open market really matters to the government officials charged with it's management. In fact, because the State limits the availability of competition through regulation, they maintain a waiting list to get into even this dilapidated facility because people like me moving to California can't immediately find an alternative. I don't think government should be in businesses. They should sell these operations to private enterprises that are in the competitive market. No one in private enterprise trying to entice a customer to come to his business would ever maintain a marina in the manner of Moss Landing or Ala Wai. The single best example in my life's experience is the Houston, TX market. The finest marinas at the most reasonable prices that I have ever kept my boat in are located in one of the largest cities in the country. Not a one of them are government owned, they are all well-maintained, and their prices are moderated by strong competition. We had floating docks, hot tubs, tennis courts, pools, great restrooms, and lots of activities with each marina competing against the other to offer the better environment to their customers. Similar private marinas and competition exist on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake with equally good results for the boating community and lots of revenue to the towns via sales taxes and property taxes from these well-run businesses. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal33, "Quantum Evolution" From: mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:10:54 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@ ...> wrote: > > Donald Dutton wrote: > > Seems like this problem is everywhere. > > > > The City of San Leandro built a beautiful marina just south of the > > Oakland airport and supported it as the crown jewel of it's parks > > department. snipped > > > There's a good argument to be made that one of government's roles is to > provide amenities for its citizens, especially those that are not likely > to be privately supplied. And there's often a good argument based on > tourism economics (not just the boaters who use the facility, but the > nautical feel it gives the community). Of course, it might be > appropriate to revisit the marina's revenues. We boaters shouldn't > expect a complete subsidy for our activities and should be ready to pay > reasonable expenses. I subscribed to that theory until I learned what has happened to Ala Wai Harbor at Honolulu. It is a wreck and the state doesn't seem to have any interest in fixing it. http://the.honolulu advertiser. com/article/ 2007/Aug/ 13/op/hawaii7081 30315.html Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 0 # 96 > > Chris Campbell > > >

RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

Downing, Thomas2008-01-11 20:06 UTC

I don't want to start a debate, but I will say that the orignal, while have some fair amount of truth, is not the whole truth, nor invariable. Those who may take exception to my statement are eargerly invited to debate me, but ONLY by direct email, please not in this forum. td From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Donald Dutton Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 2:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey It would seem, from my experience, that government is best when it leaves the actual accomplishment of tasks to the competing private sector. The building of golf courses, marinas, stadiums, etc. by government bureaucracy almost always leads to mismanagement due to several factors the most notable of which is lack of expertise in the field. Visit <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMTVjY3JlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NDg1Njk1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA2NTc5MgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyMDAwNzk5MTQ-> Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j3oatrt/M=493064.12016236.12445728.9977693/D=groups/S=1705065792:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1200087114/A=4767085/R=0/SIG=127pn01k0/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49021/*http://digitalhome.yahoo.com/sports> it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Get <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jr8ap5v/M=493064.12016309.12445701.8674578/D=groups/S=1705065792:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1200087114/A=3848627/R=0/SIG=10obc6i69/*http://news.yahoo.com/> it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Finance It's <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jp732gm/M=493064.12016257.12445664.8674578/D=groups/S=1705065792:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1200087114/A=4507179/R=0/SIG=12de4rskk/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance> Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . <http://portal.mxlogic.com/images/transparent.gif> DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************************************************* This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.

Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

Chris Campbell2008-01-11 20:39 UTC

Donald Dutton wrote: > It would seem, from my experience, that government is best when it > leaves the actual accomplishment of tasks to the competing private > sector. The building of golf courses, marinas, stadiums, etc. by > government bureaucracy almost always leads to mismanagement due to > several factors the most notable of which is lack of expertise in the > field. My experience and observations in Michigan are otherwise. Michigan owns and operates a series of state parks, and has for many years. They are pleasant, well-managed, and heavily used (mostly by in-state residents). Similarly, the state financed the construction of harbors of refuge around its Great Lakes shorelines. The lakes don't have a lot of natural harbors, and the lack of them created safety problems because of the speed with which bad weather can arise. When we take the schooner around the lakes, these are often the best maintained facilities. Most of them are managed by local units of government (cities, townships) with some state oversight. Some of the harbor improvements like piers, breakwalls, and channels, were financed and installed by the Corps of Engineers, and the state-financed marinas are inside of them or inside the rivers they protect. The scale of the Corps's projects is way beyond private funding, and the harbors-of-refuge marinas are usually located in small communities not served by private facilities. Without the public undertakings, there would be no facilities. Or they'd be the exclusive preserve of the ultra-wealthy with their gold-plater yachts. Around here, when private facilities are built, they are targeted at the crowd who own boats primarily as vacation residences (thanks to the tax code and the industry's lobbying for that second-home tax break). That's why my boat here hangs on a free mooring on public bottomland--there's no alternative. My other boat lives in a private marina, summer & winter, again because there's no practical alternative. Public recreation facilities are a reasonable public expenditure. Public bodies provide softball diamonds for adult leagues, gold courses, swimming pools, walking & biking trails, parks, tennis courts, and a lot of similar opportunities. They do it pretty well. And when we praise the efficiency of private organizations, we often overlook those wonderful folks who brought us the subprime mortgage crisis, the 12 mpg commuter vehicle, and lots of other embarrassments. Chris Campbell

Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

Donald Dutton2008-01-11 22:22 UTC

Thanks for the great reply. Truly you have something there of great value to the public in Michigan and a state that has accomplished putting together an operation with expertise in building and operating parks. I've never been there, but would like to visit. I've often read great stories of the Mackinac race. Here in California, in particular, with the possible closing of San Leandro Marina, the falling apart of docks in Moss Landing, and the elimination of slips and raising of rates in Marina del Rey, it would seem that government is at least having some difficulties in providing proper facilities for us sailors! Yet we also have some great State Parks and an excellent university system, so I see your point. Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal33, "Quantum Evolution" From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:39:11 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey Donald Dutton wrote: It would seem, from my experience, that government is best when it leaves the actual accomplishment of tasks to the competing private sector. The building of golf courses, marinas, stadiums, etc. by government bureaucracy almost always leads to mismanagement due to several factors the most notable of which is lack of expertise in the field. My experience and observations in Michigan are otherwise. Michigan owns and operates a series of state parks, and has for many years. They are pleasant, well-managed, and heavily used (mostly by in-state residents). Similarly, the state financed the construction of harbors of refuge around its Great Lakes shorelines. The lakes don't have a lot of natural harbors, and the lack of them created safety problems because of the speed with which bad weather can arise. When we take the schooner around the lakes, these are often the best maintained facilities. Most of them are managed by local units of government (cities, townships) with some state oversight. Some of the harbor improvements like piers, breakwalls, and channels, were financed and installed by the Corps of Engineers, and the state-financed marinas are inside of them or inside the rivers they protect. The scale of the Corps's projects is way beyond private funding, and the harbors-of-refuge marinas are usually located in small communities not served by private facilities. Without the public undertakings, there would be no facilities. Or they'd be the exclusive preserve of the ultra-wealthy with their gold-plater yachts. Around here, when private facilities are built, they are targeted at the crowd who own boats primarily as vacation residences (thanks to the tax code and the industry's lobbying for that second-home tax break). That's why my boat here hangs on a free mooring on public bottomland-- there's no alternative. My other boat lives in a private marina, summer & winter, again because there's no practical alternative. Public recreation facilities are a reasonable public expenditure. Public bodies provide softball diamonds for adult leagues, gold courses, swimming pools, walking & biking trails, parks, tennis courts, and a lot of similar opportunities. They do it pretty well. And when we praise the efficiency of private organizations, we often overlook those wonderful folks who brought us the subprime mortgage crisis, the 12 mpg commuter vehicle, and lots of other embarrassments. Chris Campbell

Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

Marsh Wise2008-01-11 22:31 UTC

Welcome to the Socialist Republik of Kahleefornyaa Donald Dutton wrote: > It would seem, from my experience, that government is best when it > leaves the actual accomplishment of tasks to the competing private > sector. The building of golf courses, marinas, stadiums, etc. by > government bureaucracy almost always leads to mismanagement due to > several factors the most notable of which is lack of expertise in the > field. No one on the city council of San Leandro is an active boater > nor do any of them have a thorough understanding of what a boater > needs. They just thought it would be a cash cow to develop a marina > for the city. We lived in High Bridge, NJ when a particular mayor > thought the same thing would come of the town building a golf course. > It was going to save the town and lower taxes, etc. etc. Well, that > mayor is gone, no one really knows how to run a golf course business, > and the town's tax rate has increased. > > The solution seems painfully obvious. Should the State of Hawaii, the > town of San Leandro, or the city of Los Angeles want to provide it's > citizens with the recreational, tourist, and revenue generating > activities of a marina, then they should either hire or induce a > private enterprise with specific expertise to accomplish the task. > Running a marina by government, which constantly sees turnover of > involved individuals, most of whom have no specific skills in managing > a marina, is foolhardy at best and most often damaging. > > If you want a specific example in California similar to the one in the > link here about Hawaii, just visit Moss Landing Harbor in the middle > of Monterey Bay. This facility is falling apart, has electrical and > water facilities right out of the dark ages and no one cares. Because > it is run by the State of California and it makes an operating profit, > nothing about the condition of the marina or whether it competes in > the open market really matters to the government officials charged > with it's management. In fact, because the State limits the > availability of competition through regulation, they maintain a > waiting list to get into even this dilapidated facility because people > like me moving to California can't immediately find an alternative. > > I don't think government should be in businesses. They should sell > these operations to private enterprises that are in the competitive > market. No one in private enterprise trying to entice a customer to > come to his business would ever maintain a marina in the manner of > Moss Landing or Ala Wai. > > The single best example in my life's experience is the Houston, TX > market. The finest marinas at the most reasonable prices that I have > ever kept my boat in are located in one of the largest cities in the > country. Not a one of them are government owned, they are all > well-maintained, and their prices are moderated by strong > competition. We had floating docks, hot tubs, tennis courts, pools, > great restrooms, and lots of activities with each marina competing > against the other to offer the better environment to their customers. > Similar private marinas and competition exist on the eastern shore of > the Chesapeake with equally good results for the boating community and > lots of revenue to the towns via sales taxes and property taxes from > these well-run businesses. > > Don Dutton, 1986 Cal33, "Quantum Evolution" > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:10:54 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Donald Dutton wrote: > > > Seems like this problem is everywhere. > > > > > > The City of San Leandro built a beautiful marina just south of the > > > Oakland airport and supported it as the crown jewel of it's parks > > > department. > > snipped > > > > > > > There's a good argument to be made that one of government's roles is to > > provide amenities for its citizens, especially those that are not > likely > > to be privately supplied. And there's often a good argument based on > > tourism economics (not just the boaters who use the facility, but the > > nautical feel it gives the community). Of course, it might be > > appropriate to revisit the marina's revenues. We boaters shouldn't > > expect a complete subsidy for our activities and should be ready to pay > > reasonable expenses. > > I subscribed to that theory until I learned what has happened to Ala > Wai Harbor at > Honolulu. It is a wreck and the state doesn't seem to have any > interest in fixing it. > > http://the.honolulu advertiser. com/article/ 2007/Aug/ > 13/op/hawaii7081 30315.html > <http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Aug/13/op/hawaii708130315.html> > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 0 # 96 > > > > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > >

Re: [Cal_Boats] Win for Marina Del Rey(Donald)

Gerald Sobel2008-01-12 08:49 UTC

Donald, Marina del Rey, the world's largest man made marina, was supposed to resemble Mission Bay in San Diego County. It was supposed to be a huge round lagoon for small craft recreation, rowboats, dinghy sailing, etc. because the Los Angeles area had no nearby lakes for such activity and the harbor was inappropriate for small craft as it interfered with shipping traffic. This big lagoon was supposed to be surrounded by 8,500 boat slips, marine facilities, parks, overnight parking for campers, etc. It specifically restricted the kind of development that would profiteer from it. Also, the land was quite toxic, being the home of former metal plating factories, played out oil wells, and obsolete refineries. A kind of Love Canal. After the Congress signed off on it (acquisiton of land and dredging of the harbor which would have two seperate entrances, and not use the Ballonna Creek, a source of poluted water from city street runoff, as part of the new jetties.) behind everyone's back, it was turned into a residential yacht harbor, with a main channel and numerous branching fingers for docks, with land 'moles' for apartments, restaurants, stores,etc. The finished marina has slips for only 5,500 boats, but the 'redevelopment' has reduced the number of slips to 4,500. The Two and three story apartments dating from the late sixties are being torn down to make way for much more dense and taller five story apartments and condominiums which block the wind, even across the main channel, making sailing small craft a huge challenge:no wind, high wind, wind vortices. Successfull racing means constant trim changes and heading changes. Not great for teaching or relaxed sailing. The County uses the Marina as a cash cow, accounting for the majority of its tax receipts. All the boating facilities are leased to private operators. To give you an idea of current rates, half a double slip (two boats in a slip) for a 26' Columbia now goes for $315 a month, for the marina with the worst docks [rotting plywood decked docks] . Showers here (Pier 44) are minimal, one quarter of the large marina is serviced by only one shower stall in men's and women's bath. The marina manager conspired with the lessees using the highest rates found around the Los Angles area to jack up the rates as high as possible. The 50% increase in slip fees, in one year, lead one boater to lead the current fight against this evil trick. One basin had its docks rearranged 90 degrees, and had its slips reduced by 50% The new high rise condos are put in with such density that you feel closed in and trapped, like your in the down town of a city. More development is planned, covering up existing public parking, filling up the one public beach, and rumors fly that some of the new buildings are, despite deeply driven support pilings, sinking into the muck. At times, smelly gas with a hydrogen sulfide odor is seen bubbling up around the boats, and a petroleum sheen can be seen on the surface. Uggh! But don't get me wrong, I love this place! That's why its worth defending it. Jerry --- On Fri, 1/11/08, Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 11, 2008, 11:31 AM It would seem, from my experience, that government is best when it leaves the actual accomplishment of tasks to the competing private sector. The building of golf courses, marinas, stadiums, etc. by government bureaucracy almost always leads to mismanagement due to several factors the most notable of which is lack of expertise in the field. No one on the city council of San Leandro is an active boater nor do any of them have a thorough understanding of what a boater needs. They just thought it would be a cash cow to develop a marina for the city. We lived in High Bridge, NJ when a particular mayor thought the same thing would come of the town building a golf course. It was going to save the town and lower taxes, etc. etc. Well, that mayor is gone, no one really knows how to run a golf course business, and the town's tax rate has increased. The solution seems painfully obvious. Should the State of Hawaii, the town of San Leandro, or the city of Los Angeles want to provide it's citizens with the recreational, tourist, and revenue generating activities of a marina, then they should either hire or induce a private enterprise with specific expertise to accomplish the task. Running a marina by government, which constantly sees turnover of involved individuals, most of whom have no specific skills in managing a marina, is foolhardy at best and most often damaging. If you want a specific example in California similar to the one in the link here about Hawaii, just visit Moss Landing Harbor in the middle of Monterey Bay. This facility is falling apart, has electrical and water facilities right out of the dark ages and no one cares. Because it is run by the State of California and it makes an operating profit, nothing about the condition of the marina or whether it competes in the open market really matters to the government officials charged with it's management. In fact, because the State limits the availability of competition through regulation, they maintain a waiting list to get into even this dilapidated facility because people like me moving to California can't immediately find an alternative. I don't think government should be in businesses. They should sell these operations to private enterprises that are in the competitive market. No one in private enterprise trying to entice a customer to come to his business would ever maintain a marina in the manner of Moss Landing or Ala Wai. The single best example in my life's experience is the Houston, TX market. The finest marinas at the most reasonable prices that I have ever kept my boat in are located in one of the largest cities in the country. Not a one of them are government owned, they are all well-maintained, and their prices are moderated by strong competition. We had floating docks, hot tubs, tennis courts, pools, great restrooms, and lots of activities with each marina competing against the other to offer the better environment to their customers. Similar private marinas and competition exist on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake with equally good results for the boating community and lots of revenue to the towns via sales taxes and property taxes from these well-run businesses. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal33, "Quantum Evolution" From: mtkennedy1 <mtkennedy1@cox. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:10:54 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com , Chris Campbell <clcampbell@ ...> wrote: > > Donald Dutton wrote: > > Seems like this problem is everywhere. > > > > The City of San Leandro built a beautiful marina just south of the > > Oakland airport and supported it as the crown jewel of it's parks > > department. snipped > > > There's a good argument to be made that one of government's roles is to > provide amenities for its citizens, especially those that are not likely > to be privately supplied. And there's often a good argument based on > tourism economics (not just the boaters who use the facility, but the > nautical feel it gives the community). Of course, it might be > appropriate to revisit the marina's revenues. We boaters shouldn't > expect a complete subsidy for our activities and should be ready to pay > reasonable expenses. I subscribed to that theory until I learned what has happened to Ala Wai Harbor at Honolulu. It is a wreck and the state doesn't seem to have any interest in fixing it. http://the.honolulu advertiser. com/article/ 2007/Aug/ 13/op/hawaii7081 30315.html Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 0 # 96 > > Chris Campbell > > >

Re: Win for Marina Del Rey(Donald)

mtkennedy12008-01-12 16:40

I used to sail a small dinghy in Mud Lake, the lagoon that became Marina Del Rey. One of the problems was that the marina was at first a failure. Part of that was the swell down the main channel before they built the breakwater across the end of the channel. A fraternity brother of mine, who was a professional lifeguard, had one of the original leases. He sold it for peanuts and no doubt regrets it now. I suspect that many of the original plans went out the window during that early period of crisis. I had a Cal 25 there for a while but soon we moved it to LA Harbor and I have sailed out of San Pedro most of the ensuing 30 years. Part of the problem is the California coastline which has deep water close in and very few natural harbors. Even LA Harbor is artificial, having been built by William Mulholland around 1900. Newport Beach and San Diego are the only natural harbors south of Monterey. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey

steve cahill2008-01-13 01:47 UTC

I was in Hawaii in June '05 and walked over to the Ala Wai from my hotel. I introduced myself and explained that I was a marina maitainance guy at the Port of Bremerton. They thought that I was nuts. They had never heard of such a thing! The place was a mess but on the other hand I discovered I could be a live-aboard for about $100.00 a month less than at the marina I am currently living in. Steve. From: mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:10:54 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Fw: Win for Marina Del Rey --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@ ...> wrote: > > Donald Dutton wrote: > > Seems like this problem is everywhere. > > > > The City of San Leandro built a beautiful marina just south of the > > Oakland airport and supported it as the crown jewel of it's parks > > department. snipped > > > There's a good argument to be made that one of government's roles is to > provide amenities for its citizens, especially those that are not likely > to be privately supplied. And there's often a good argument based on > tourism economics (not just the boaters who use the facility, but the > nautical feel it gives the community). Of course, it might be > appropriate to revisit the marina's revenues. We boaters shouldn't > expect a complete subsidy for our activities and should be ready to pay > reasonable expenses. I subscribed to that theory until I learned what has happened to Ala Wai Harbor at Honolulu. It is a wreck and the state doesn't seem to have any interest in fixing it. http://the.honolulu advertiser. com/article/ 2007/Aug/ 13/op/hawaii7081 30315.html Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 0 # 96 > > Chris Campbell > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping