carbon fiber

If you are interested in why I don't think carbon fiber masts are safe offshore, this story might help. http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Skandias-Sydney-Hobart-mast-story:-the-final- cut/40364 Pretty expensive stuff. I'll take the aluminum stick on the Cal 40, thank you. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Interesting that Malcolm used a presumably aluminum beer can to illustrate his point. There is only one reason why I would not have a carbon-fiber mast on Radiant: the PHRF rating penalty "hit". We all spend time and money in what others might see as foolish ways on our boats. Varnish being one example that comes to mind. Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Because these failures occur on the extreme boats should not suggest that they will happen on a J-133 or any of the hundreds of well-built luxury boats that have them. I'm not pretending that I could afford a carbon fiber mast, at least not today. But if I could, and if there were no rating "hit", carbon would be my choice. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 (just took our Christmas lights on the mast down this morning). Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: mtkennedy1<mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber If you are interested in why I don't think carbon fiber masts are safe offshore, this story might help. http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Skandias-Sydney-Hobart-mast-story:-the-final<http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Skandias-Sydney-Hobart-mast-story:-the-final>- cut/40364 Pretty expensive stuff. I'll take the aluminum stick on the Cal 40, thank you. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 Yahoo! Groups Links

I think they are fine for racing inshore. I wouldn't want to make an offshore passage with one. Since I can't afford one either, it's moot. Losing a mast because of a spinnaker broach happens to aluminum masts but that's usually at the pole fitting and is because they dipped the pole. This was way aloft and was just due to a side load, as best I can tell. Merlin lost theirs before the start of the Cabo Race in a "gravity storm." I don't think they even knew why it went. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 On Dec 29, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Fin Beven wrote: > > Interesting that Malcolm used a presumably aluminum beer can to > illustrate his point. > > There is only one reason why I would not have a carbon-fiber mast > on Radiant: > > the PHRF rating penalty "hit". > > We all spend time and money in what others might see as foolish > ways on our boats. Varnish being one example that comes to mind. > Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly > improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight > reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Because these > failures occur on the extreme boats should not suggest that they > will happen on a J-133 or any of the hundreds of well-built luxury > boats that have them. > > I'm not pretending that I could afford a carbon fiber mast, at > least not today. But if I could, and if there were no rating > "hit", carbon would be my choice. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 (just took our Christmas lights on the mast down this > morning). > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mtkennedy1 > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:24 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber > > If you are interested in why I don't think carbon fiber masts are > safe offshore, this story > might help. > > http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Skandias-Sydney-Hobart-mast- > story:-the-final- > cut/40364 > > Pretty expensive stuff. I'll take the aluminum stick on the Cal 40, > thank you. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

Grahm the skipper of Dove, snapped two masts in half on his way round the world on his Lapworth 24, and of course, they were aluminum. I don't know if some people said the mast should have been more stout, or if some say it should have been made out of wood! I know they sleeved together the two halves on the first break, and flew in a new stouter mast the second time. If you haven't read the book or seen the movie, I highly recommend it. I rented the movie through Blockbuster (hmm, I wonder if it is still available since it was VHS tape...Arrgh! Jerry Sobel --- On Sat, 12/29/07, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: From: Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 29, 2007, 1:41 PM Interesting that Malcolm used a presumably aluminum beer can to illustrate his point. There is only one reason why I would not have a carbon-fiber mast on Radiant: the PHRF rating penalty "hit". We all spend time and money in what others might see as foolish ways on our boats. Varnish being one example that comes to mind. Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Because these failures occur on the extreme boats should not suggest that they will happen on a J-133 or any of the hundreds of well-built luxury boats that have them. I'm not pretending that I could afford a carbon fiber mast, at least not today. But if I could, and if there were no rating "hit", carbon would be my choice. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 (just took our Christmas lights on the mast down this morning). Radiant San Pedro, CA From: mtkennedy1 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber If you are interested in why I don't think carbon fiber masts are safe offshore, this story might help. http://www.sail- world.com/ australia/ Skandias- Sydney-Hobart- mast-story: -the-final - cut/40364 Pretty expensive stuff. I'll take the aluminum stick on the Cal 40, thank you. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Cal_ Boats/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups. yahoocom/ group/Cal_ Boats/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:Cal_Boats- digest@yahoogrou ps.com mailto:Cal_Boats- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Cal_Boats-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

For the VHS version of Dove (I don't think it's on DVD yet), go *here* <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302374383/reenactornet> Marsh Gerald Sobel wrote: > Grahm the skipper of Dove, snapped two masts in half on his way round > the world on his Lapworth 24, and of course, they were aluminum. I > don't know if some people said the mast should have been more stout, > or if some say it should have been made out of wood! I know they > sleeved together the two halves on the first break, and flew in a new > stouter mast the second time. If you haven't read the book or seen the > movie, I highly recommend it. I rented the movie through Blockbuster > (hmm, I wonder if it is still available since it was VHS tape...Arrgh! > Jerry Sobel > > --- On *Sat, 12/29/07, Fin Beven /<fi… [at] msn.com>/* wrote: > > From: Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 29, 2007, 1:41 PM > > Interesting that Malcolm used a /presumably aluminum /beer can to > illustrate his point. > > There is only one reason why I would not have a carbon-fiber mast > on Radiant: > > the PHRF rating penalty "hit". > > We all spend time and money in what others might see as foolish > ways on our boats. Varnish being one example that comes to mind. > Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly > improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight > reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Because these > failures occur on the extreme boats should not suggest that they > will happen on a J-133 or any of the hundreds of well-built luxury > boats that have them. > > I'm not pretending that I could afford a carbon fiber mast, at > least not today. But if I could, and if there were no rating > "hit", carbon would be my choice. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 (just took our Christmas lights on the mast down this > morning). > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* mtkennedy1 <mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> > *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:24 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber > > If you are interested in why I don't think carbon fiber masts > are safe offshore, this story > might help. > > http://www.sail- world.com/ australia/ Skandias- > Sydney-Hobart- mast-story: -the-final > <http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Skandias-Sydney-Hobart-mast-story:-the-final>- > cut/40364 > > Pretty expensive stuff. I'll take the aluminum stick on the > Cal 40, thank you. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > (Yahoo! ID required) > > mailto:Cal_Boats- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > > > > >

Or this might be more artsy (might not work either, but I'll try it).... Marsh Wise wrote: > For the VHS version of Dove (I don't think it's on DVD yet), go *here* > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302374383/reenactornet> > Marsh > > Gerald Sobel wrote: >> Grahm the skipper of Dove, snapped two masts in half on his way round >> the world on his Lapworth 24, and of course, they were aluminum. I >> don't know if some people said the mast should have been more stout, >> or if some say it should have been made out of wood! I know they >> sleeved together the two halves on the first break, and flew in a new >> stouter mast the second time. If you haven't read the book or seen >> the movie, I highly recommend it. I rented the movie through >> Blockbuster (hmm, I wonder if it is still available since it was VHS >> tape...Arrgh! >> Jerry Sobel >> >> --- On *Sat, 12/29/07, Fin Beven /<fi… [at] msn.com>/* wrote: >> >> From: Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Date: Saturday, December 29, 2007, 1:41 PM >> >> Interesting that Malcolm used a /presumably aluminum /beer can to >> illustrate his point. >> >> There is only one reason why I would not have a carbon-fiber mast >> on Radiant: >> >> the PHRF rating penalty "hit". >> >> We all spend time and money in what others might see as foolish >> ways on our boats. Varnish being one example that comes to >> mind. Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so >> instantly improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a >> weight reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. >> Because these failures occur on the extreme boats should not >> suggest that they will happen on a J-133 or any of the hundreds >> of well-built luxury boats that have them. >> >> I'm not pretending that I could afford a carbon fiber mast, at >> least not today. But if I could, and if there were no rating >> "hit", carbon would be my choice. >> >> Fin Beven >> Cal-40 #24 (just took our Christmas lights on the mast down >> this morning). >> Radiant >> San Pedro, CA >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* mtkennedy1 <mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> >> *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >> <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:24 AM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber >> >> If you are interested in why I don't think carbon fiber masts >> are safe offshore, this story >> might help. >> >> http://www.sail- world.com/ australia/ Skandias- >> Sydney-Hobart- mast-story: -the-final >> <http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Skandias-Sydney-Hobart-mast-story:-the-final>- >> cut/40364 >> >> Pretty expensive stuff. I'll take the aluminum stick on the >> Cal 40, thank you. >> >> Mike Kennedy >> Conquest Cal 40 # 96 >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> (Yahoo! ID required) >> >> mailto:Cal_Boats- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com >> <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> >> >> >> >

Fin Beven wrote: > > Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly > improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight > reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Right on, as we used to say. My other boat, a shoal-draft keel-centerboarder, has a spruce spar. Pretty to look at, but heavier than aluminum even. And the higher your ballast is located, the more that weight aloft affects things. Jon ______, former WoodenBoat editor, caused a great uproar by putting a carbon-fiber spar (with wood veneer) on his old wooden boat. He argued for weight reduction aloft and lessened stress on the hull and rig. Traditionalists were appalled. It made sense to me. If I had a suitable gift certificate I'd have a carbon fiber spar built for wither of my boats in an instant. It would be spec'd for real-world sailing (the high winds and seas that you can't avoid, the blunders that you make). Chris Campbell

Chris, Was this wood veneer he put on the carbon mast...genuine, authentic, wood grain vinyl? If wood, why 'wood' you want to bother varnishing, scraping and revarnishing a carbon mast every year? Oh I know, "looking good, mon!" --- On Wed, 1/2/08, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:16 AM Fin Beven wrote: Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Right on, as we used to say. My other boat, a shoal-draft keel-centerboarder, has a spruce spar. Pretty to look at, but heavier than aluminum even. And the higher your ballast is located, the more that weight aloft affects things. Jon ______, former WoodenBoat editor, caused a great uproar by putting a carbon-fiber spar (with wood veneer) on his old wooden boat. He argued for weight reduction aloft and lessened stress on the hull and rig. Traditionalists were appalled. It made sense to me. If I had a suitable gift certificate I'd have a carbon fiber spar built for wither of my boats in an instant. It would be spec'd for real-world sailing (the high winds and seas that you can't avoid, the blunders that you make). Chris Campbell

The Pajaro Jai has carbon fiber spars covered with wood, real wood. The workmanship is fantastic - and done to look like a built up wood spar, not like veneer slapped on something. Of course, given it's mission, this made a lot of sense. Also, it is a wooden boat, so... BTW, if you ever get a chance to see this boat, it is quite something. http://www.pajarojai.org/yacht.htm td From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:53 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber(Chirs) Chris, Was this wood veneer he put on the carbon mast...genuine, authentic, wood grain vinyl? If wood, why 'wood' you want to bother varnishing, scraping and revarnishing a carbon mast every year? Oh I know, "looking good, mon!" --- On Wed, 1/2/08, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:16 AM Fin Beven wrote: Actually, I cannot imagine any change that would so instantly improve the sailing characteristics of our boats than a weight reduction of 100 pounds (maybe more) in the rig. Right on, as we used to say. My other boat, a shoal-draft keel-centerboarder, has a spruce spar. Pretty to look at, but heavier than aluminum even. And the higher your ballast is located, the more that weight aloft affects things. Jon ______, former WoodenBoat editor, caused a great uproar by putting a carbon-fiber spar (with wood veneer) on his old wooden boat. He argued for weight reduction aloft and lessened stress on the hull and rig. Traditionalists were appalled. It made sense to me. If I had a suitable gift certificate I'd have a carbon fiber spar built for wither of my boats in an instant. It would be spec'd for real-world sailing (the high winds and seas that you can't avoid, the blunders that you make). Chris Campbell DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************************************************* This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.

Gerald Sobel wrote: > > Chris, > Was this wood veneer he put on the carbon mast...genuine, authentic, > wood grain vinyl? If wood, why 'wood' you want to bother varnishing, > scraping and revarnishing a carbon mast every year? Oh I know, > "looking good, mon!" > Well, it was a classic wooden vessel, and there would have been even more vociferous howls if he'd gone modern with bare carbon fiber. I only read the column discussing this and haven't seen the photos, but as I understand it, it was a real wood veneer. The idea was to preserve the visual effect of the original mast, but to reduce weight aloft and stress on the rig. And you have to understand that he was one of the leading lights in the back-to-wood movement and the preservation movement for classic vessels. Some of the followers of those movements become believers with true religious zeal, and any form of perceived apostasy leads to vigorous protests. My other boat's varnished wooden (spruce) mast holds up pretty well, especially after I removed the 40-year varnish buildup and started over afresh. It held up pretty well, that is, until there was a 70-mph wind during a hail storm last June that left one side looking like it had a form of pox. Chris Campbell > >

I haven't done this, but I can imagine the process. When laying up the laminate layers of carbon in the epoxy matrix, the outermost layer would be a non-structural veneer of wood. It would be applied just like the thin layers of fiber, and would be embedded in the matrix and pretty well protected under a layer of resin. Did he have the mast made rectangular to look like a hollow box section of wood? I'll be spending the next two days with an engineering professor who is a composite expert, I'll ask him about this. From: sentto-16485695-10051-1199299116-george.a.elwers=sa… [at] returns.groups.yahoo.com on behalf of Chris Campbell Sent: Wed 1/2/2008 10:38 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber(Chirs) Gerald Sobel wrote: Chris, Was this wood veneer he put on the carbon mast...genuine, authentic, wood grain vinyl? If wood, why 'wood' you want to bother varnishing, scraping and revarnishing a carbon mast every year? Oh I know, "looking good, mon!" Well, it was a classic wooden vessel, and there would have been even more vociferous howls if he'd gone modern with bare carbon fiber. I only read the column discussing this and haven't seen the photos, but as I understand it, it was a real wood veneer. The idea was to preserve the visual effect of the original mast, but to reduce weight aloft and stress on the rig. And you have to understand that he was one of the leading lights in the back-to-wood movement and the preservation movement for classic vessels. Some of the followers of those movements become believers with true religious zeal, and any form of perceived apostasy leads to vigorous protests. My other boat's varnished wooden (spruce) mast holds up pretty well, especially after I removed the 40-year varnish buildup and started over afresh. It held up pretty well, that is, until there was a 70-mph wind during a hail storm last June that left one side looking like it had a form of pox. Chris Campbell

When someone is racing at the level that started this thread, spar design parameters would likely include the concepts of "minimum weight aloft" and "RELATIVELY LOW probability of failure due to weight reduction". No serious owner at this level is "shocked" when the rig comes down. Speed is king, and weight is the enemy on these boats, such that if something is "too safe", it will also be "too slow". That's racing at this level. The same is true in almost anything that is open racing, whether it be cars, boats, or planes. To a achieve a "safe" carbon fiber mast, simply change the design parameters to "VERY LOW probability of failure" and "do not compromise safety for the sake of weight reduction". With these parameters, an owner would end up with a mast that is still significantly lighter than aluminum, and still very safe. If there were no such thing as carbon fiber we would still be reading about rig failures on boats racing at the highest level. The aluminum rigs would still be falling because the designers would still be pushing for minimum weight aloft. One of the last races I sailed before carbon became "the thing" at this level of racing, the boat had an aluminum mast that had been "chemically etched" to reduce wall thickness in certain areas. It worked great for the run to Hawaii, but hardly suited for the Southern Ocean. Fin Beven From: "Elwers, George A." <ge… [at] saic.com> To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber(Chirs) > I haven't done this, but I can imagine the process. When laying up the > laminate layers of carbon in the epoxy matrix, the outermost layer would > be a non-structural veneer of wood. It would be applied just like the thin > layers of fiber, and would be embedded in the matrix and pretty well > protected under a layer of resin. Did he have the mast made rectangular to > look like a hollow box section of wood? > > I'll be spending the next two days with an engineering professor who is a > composite expert, I'll ask him about this. > > ________________________________ > > From: > sentto-16485695-10051-1199299116-george.a.elwers=sa… [at] returns.groups.yahoo.com > on behalf of Chris Campbell > Sent: Wed 1/2/2008 10:38 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber(Chirs) > > > > Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > Chris, > Was this wood veneer he put on the carbon mast...genuine, authentic, wood > grain vinyl? If wood, why 'wood' you want to bother varnishing, scraping > and revarnishing a carbon mast every year? Oh I know, "looking good, mon!" > > > > > > > > Well, it was a classic wooden vessel, and there would have been even more > vociferous howls if he'd gone modern with bare carbon fiber. I only read > the column discussing this and haven't seen the photos, but as I > understand it, it was a real wood veneer. The idea was to preserve the > visual effect of the original mast, but to reduce weight aloft and stress > on the rig. And you have to understand that he was one of the leading > lights in the back-to-wood movement and the preservation movement for > classic vessels. Some of the followers of those movements become > believers with true religious zeal, and any form of perceived apostasy > leads to vigorous protests. > > My other boat's varnished wooden (spruce) mast holds up pretty well, > especially after I removed the 40-year varnish buildup and started over > afresh. It held up pretty well, that is, until there was a 70-mph wind > during a hail storm last June that left one side looking like it had a > form of pox. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Elwers, George A. wrote: > > I haven't done this, but I can imagine the process. When laying up the > laminate layers of carbon in the epoxy matrix, the outermost layer > would be a non-structural veneer of wood. It would be applied just > like the thin layers of fiber, and would be embedded in the matrix and > pretty well protected under a layer of resin. Did he have the mast > made rectangular to look like a hollow box section of wood? > Apparently the boat was a 33' Concordia yawl. Here's what I found in a Google search: The Concordia 33 is a Bud McIntosh design, the largest of the series (Concordia 28, 31, 33). This probably is a boat you can build yourself and as it is a McIntosh design it is meant to be simple, strong, and not too fancy finish-wise. This is the model owned by Jon Wilson, founder of WB, and as I recall, he felt that his boat benefitted greatly from the (gasp!) carbon fiber mast he installed. He took the weight savings and invested in more ballast. Said it made her more able to stand up to her sail and have an easier motion. A later post corrected the designer attribution--not McIntosh, but Bill Harris. Another post said: "Then there's the material used in [WB's beloved chairman and editor-in-chief] Jon Wilson's Concordia's mast and the mast of one of the schooner America replicas." If it's a Concordia yawl, the mast is probably box-section. Chris Campbell Carbon. > > I'll be spending the next two days with an engineering professor who > is a composite expert, I'll ask him about this. > > ________________________________ > > From: > sentto-16485695-10051-1199299116-george.a.elwers=sa… [at] returns.groups.yahoo.com > <mailto:sentto-16485695-10051-1199299116-george.a.elwers%3Dsaic.com%40returns.groups.yahoo.com> > on behalf of Chris Campbell > Sent: Wed 1/2/2008 10:38 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber(Chirs) > > Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > Chris, > Was this wood veneer he put on the carbon mast...genuine, authentic, > wood grain vinyl? If wood, why 'wood' you want to bother varnishing, > scraping and revarnishing a carbon mast every year? Oh I know, > "looking good, mon!" > > > Well, it was a classic wooden vessel, and there would have been even > more vociferous howls if he'd gone modern with bare carbon fiber. I > only read the column discussing this and haven't seen the photos, but > as I understand it, it was a real wood veneer. The idea was to > preserve the visual effect of the original mast, but to reduce weight > aloft and stress on the rig. And you have to understand that he was > one of the leading lights in the back-to-wood movement and the > preservation movement for classic vessels. Some of the followers of > those movements become believers with true religious zeal, and any > form of perceived apostasy leads to vigorous protests. > > My other boat's varnished wooden (spruce) mast holds up pretty well, > especially after I removed the 40-year varnish buildup and started > over afresh. It held up pretty well, that is, until there was a 70-mph > wind during a hail storm last June that left one side looking like it > had a form of pox. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008 11:29 AM >

Fin Beven wrote: > > > If there were no such thing as carbon fiber we would still be reading > about > rig failures on boats racing at the highest level. The aluminum rigs > would > still be falling because the designers would still be pushing for minimum > weight aloft. > Sophistication is often achieved via complex engineering (as the chemical-etching example illustrates). Another form of complexity is the tall rigs with so many spreaders that they start to resemble Christmas trees, and proliferations of stays and shrouds to match. And as things become more complex, the opportunities for failure multiply. A lot of those rigs have limited design lives anyway--they're not like my other boat that kept her 1961 standing rigging until I replaced it, mostly out of superstition, last year. Nobody expects this year's hot racer to keep the same rig for very many years. And I certainly don't want to be purchasing rig-of-the-year on my old boats. It would certainly put a big dent in the sailing budget! > One of the last races I sailed before carbon became "the > thing" at this level of racing, the boat had an aluminum mast that had > been > "chemically etched" to reduce wall thickness in certain areas. It worked > great for the run to Hawaii, but hardly suited for the Southern Ocean. > It's all about choosing the right tool for the job at hand, isn't it? I'd move to a suitably-sturdy carbon fiber spar in an instant if I had the $$$ to spend on such an extravagance. Almost any boat would benefit from getting that weight out of the wrong place. Chris Campbell > >

Here is an Ebay auction for Cal 29 vintage advertisement. The name of the boat pictured is "Swiss Navy." Isn't that Rog Jones's boat? Here it is: http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG

Huh?? Swiss Navy??? Why, that could only be the original Alinghi America's Cup Boat!! ....And all this time I thought Swiss Navy referred to what happened to the original Cal 29 hull when Rog tried to grind all the blisters out of the old laminate! Jerry --- On Wed, 1/2/08, Bruce Stirling <br… [at] stirlinglaw.com> wrote: From: Bruce Stirling <br… [at] stirlinglaw.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Does "Swiss Navy" belong to Rog Jones? To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 7:56 PM Here is an Ebay auction for Cal 29 vintage advertisement. The name of the boat pictured is "Swiss Navy." Isn't that Rog Jones's boat? Here it is: http://i11.ebayimg. com/01/i/ 000/be/40/ aa80_1.JPG

Bruce Stirling wrote: > > Here is an Ebay auction for Cal 29 vintage advertisement. The name > of the boat pictured is "Swiss Navy." > > Isn't that Rog Jones's boat? > > Here it is: http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG > <http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG> Yes, and as I recall, the boat was the first-off hull of the 29. Chris Campbell >

Indeed. Swiss Navy was CAL 29 No. 1. Might have belonged to Jack Jensen as well. Roger was happy to get that piece of history. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:25 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Does "Swiss Navy" belong to Rog Jones? Bruce Stirling wrote: Here is an Ebay auction for Cal 29 vintage advertisement. The name of the boat pictured is "Swiss Navy." Isn't that Rog Jones's boat? Here it is: http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG <http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG> Yes, and as I recall, the boat was the first-off hull of the 29. Chris Campbell

The original owner was Dick Deaver, who also ran the Long Beach North Sails loft. ----- Original Message ----- From: Husar, Charlie [USA]<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Does "Swiss Navy" belong to Rog Jones? Indeed. Swiss Navy was CAL 29 No. 1. Might have belonged to Jack Jensen as well. Roger was happy to get that piece of history. Cheers Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:25 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Does "Swiss Navy" belong to Rog Jones? Bruce Stirling wrote: Here is an Ebay auction for Cal 29 vintage advertisement. The name of the boat pictured is "Swiss Navy." Isn't that Rog Jones's boat? Here it is: http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG<http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/be/40/aa80_1.JPG> Yes, and as I recall, the boat was the first-off hull of the 29. Chris Campbell

Speaking of weight aloft. Has anyone out there tried any of the synthetic rigging products out there? There is a Canadian company (well Quebec anyway) Precor offering fittings and Colligo Marine in Arizona has similar stuff and is the distributer of Dynex Dux which seems to be the best cordage product for rigging. I am looking to replace my backstay and shrouds and this stuff sounds pretty good. I figure I could shed 20-30 lbs from the heavy cal 31 rig with this stuff and since I need to replace anyway............. Frank Cal 31

Our backstay on Radiant is PBO (covered in some sort of plastic). Light and strong. And in our case, it was less expensive than any other alternative because at the time we replaced it, we were preparing for TransPac. Our alternatives were a wire or rod backstay with two insullators for the SSB radio, or the PBO and plain-old 14 ga wire as the antena. The two insullators would have cost more than the PBO backstay, and the 14 ga wire for the antenna cost less than $10. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: feet<mailto:th… [at] sympatico.ca> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber/weight aloft Speaking of weight aloft. Has anyone out there tried any of the synthetic rigging products out there? There is a Canadian company (well Quebec anyway) Precor offering fittings and Colligo Marine in Arizona has similar stuff and is the distributer of Dynex Dux which seems to be the best cordage product for rigging. I am looking to replace my backstay and shrouds and this stuff sounds pretty good. I figure I could shed 20-30 lbs from the heavy cal 31 rig with this stuff and since I need to replace anyway............. Frank Cal 31

feet wrote: > > Speaking of weight aloft. > Has anyone out there tried any of the synthetic rigging products out > there? > There is a Canadian company (well Quebec anyway) Precor offering > fittings and Colligo Marine in Arizona has similar stuff and is the > distributer of Dynex Dux which seems to be the best cordage product > for rigging. > I am looking to replace my backstay and shrouds and this stuff sounds > pretty good. I figure I could shed 20-30 lbs from the heavy cal 31 rig > with this stuff and since I need to replace anyway............. I think the first question I would ask is how long it will last--especially UV resistance. Then how much it will cost. Of course, the big issue before any of that is elongation under stress, whatever the technical term is (coefficient of something). I just replaced the standing rigging on my other boat, which was original 1961-vintage stainless. There was no evidence of failure but eventually you start to wonder. The boat is hauled & stored indoors for half the year, but I still wonder if the new high-tech stuff would have similar durability. Of course, sometimes we're willing to pay more for performance, but you'd have to calculate how frequently the hi-tech stuff will have to be replaced. Chris Campbell >

From: Chris Campbell To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber/weight aloft feet wrote: Speaking of weight aloft.......... I think the first question I would ask is how long it will last--especially UV resistance. Then how much it will cost. Of course, the big issue before any of that is elongation under stress, whatever the technical term is (coefficient of something). I just replaced the standing rigging on my other boat, which was original 1961-vintage stainless. There was no evidence of failure but eventually you start to wonder. The boat is hauled & stored indoors for half the year, but I still wonder if the new high-tech stuff would have similar durability. Of course, sometimes we're willing to pay more for performance, but you'd have to calculate how frequently the hi-tech stuff will have to be replaced. Chris Campbell Hi Chris, The cost of the synthetic rigging is the same or less than stainless, especially if you are replaceing turnbuckles. Elongation is not a big problem as it is minimal with the pre-stretched non woven stuff --very comparable to stainless and maybe less. What you get is creep over time for which you can adjust as you tune the rig. I see the drawbacks to be longevity--I don't know how long the stuff lasts, and it seems the suppliers don't either. Chafe is a potential problem but you can see it if it happens. I have heard of people using heat shrink tubing as chafe protection. The nice thing is you only have to replace the line after you are set up with the fittings. The other nice thing is that if you are half-decent at splicing line (I am 3/4 decent at it) you can eliminate the rigger for fittings. Great to hear that Fin Beven is using it on his cal 40 (thanks Fin). No one at our club has used the stuff so I will be the innovator locally. I think I will go with it unless I hear some horror stories from the list. Frank Cal 31

Spectra/Dyneema lifelines. Some of you may be familiar with Steve & Linda Dashew. http://tinyurl.com/ys9d97<http://tinyurl.com/ys9d97> They had 30,000 miles of experience with the Sundeer-type "Beowulf", and now with "Wind Horse" http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew.html<http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew.html> They highly recommend spectra for lifelines. The stuff is half the weight of stainless wire, and, best-of-all, has no terminals to fail. That of course, is where the failures happen .. at the terminals. Spectra is very easy to splice (tuck-tuck-tuck-bury) and any degradation or abrasion is readily apparent. The stuff is very hard to cut, requiring a serrated edge. For most smaller boats that do not have "gates" in their lifelines, no extra fittings are needed. For boats with "gates", C S Johnson has all the fittings you might need to adapt to the spectra line: http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/00005.htm<http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/00005.htm> However, if you are planning to enter a U.S.Sailing Category 1 race (such as to Bermuda or Hawaii), Spectra does not yet have their approval. I have no idea why. I've been using spectra halyards for at least 10 years and have yet to see a failure. In that same time, I've seen the failure of several common lifeline terminals. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: feet<mailto:th… [at] sympatico.ca> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber/weight aloft ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell<mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] carbon fiber/weight aloft feet wrote: Speaking of weight aloft.......... I think the first question I would ask is how long it will last--especially UV resistance. Then how much it will cost. Of course, the big issue before any of that is elongation under stress, whatever the technical term is (coefficient of something). I just replaced the standing rigging on my other boat, which was original 1961-vintage stainless. There was no evidence of failure but eventually you start to wonder. The boat is hauled & stored indoors for half the year, but I still wonder if the new high-tech stuff would have similar durability. Of course, sometimes we're willing to pay more for performance, but you'd have to calculate how frequently the hi-tech stuff will have to be replaced. Chris Campbell Hi Chris, The cost of the synthetic rigging is the same or less than stainless, especially if you are replaceing turnbuckles. Elongation is not a big problem as it is minimal with the pre-stretched non woven stuff --very comparable to stainless and maybe less. What you get is creep over time for which you can adjust as you tune the rig. I see the drawbacks to be longevity--I don't know how long the stuff lasts, and it seems the suppliers don't either. Chafe is a potential problem but you can see it if it happens. I have heard of people using heat shrink tubing as chafe protection. The nice thing is you only have to replace the line after you are set up with the fittings. The other nice thing is that if you are half-decent at splicing line (I am 3/4 decent at it) you can eliminate the rigger for fittings. Great to hear that Fin Beven is using it on his cal 40 (thanks Fin). No one at our club has used the stuff so I will be the innovator locally. I think I will go with it unless I hear some horror stories from the list. Frank Cal 31

I have 3/8" Vectran standing rigging and lifelines on my Cal20. No creep or slippage, impossible to cut (difficult even with an excellent serrated knife), twice as strong (4000lb breaking) and half the weight as the stainless wire it replaced. Tested in gale force winds. (~$700 total cost instead of ~$500 for the stainless steel option) I used aluminum deadeyes for tensioning (1/8" spectra lacing). It was a great switch, I would want to do a bit more engineering before I used it on a larger boat. Matthew Wallace Cal20 "Cisco" P.S. Yes I am back again!

Matthew! Good to hear from you. We still tell stories of your legendary seamanship and vicious poker play at our Channel Island gatherings..... Where are you berthed these days and what are you up too? How about a general update for all of those on the list that have had the pleasure of hanging out and/or sailing with you? David Wilkie Owen Cal 2-29 "Mariposa" Santa Barbara, CA http://www.mariposasailing.com <http://www.mariposasailing.com/> _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Wallace Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:54 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Weight-Liflelines I have 3/8" Vectran standing rigging and lifelines on my Cal20. No creep or slippage, impossible to cut (difficult even with an excellent serrated knife), twice as strong (4000lb breaking) and half the weight as the stainless wire it replaced. Tested in gale force winds. (~$700 total cost instead of ~$500 for the stainless steel option) I used aluminum deadeyes for tensioning (1/8" spectra lacing). It was a great switch, I would want to do a bit more engineering before I used it on a larger boat. Matthew Wallace Cal20 "Cisco" P.S. Yes I am back again!

Matthew Wallace wrote: > > I have 3/8" Vectran standing rigging and lifelines on my Cal20. No > creep or slippage, impossible to cut (difficult even with an excellent > serrated knife), twice as strong (4000lb breaking) and half the weight > as the stainless wire it replaced. Tested in gale force winds. (~$700 > total cost instead of ~$500 for the stainless steel option) > > I used aluminum deadeyes for tensioning (1/8" spectra lacing). It was > a great switch, I would want to do a bit more engineering before I > used it on a larger boat. > Matt: What did you do where the upper shrouds turn over the end of the spreaders? Does the synthetic stuff require special protection there? Did you use it for the jumper stays too? And what's this about lifelines--do you have stanchions on your Cal 20? Lastly,. what's the projected lifetime for Vectran in outdoor, UV-exposure service? Chris Campbell Cal 20 #1220

I just used a little chafe tape for the spreader ends, there was no movement there while the rig was up so the wear was minimal. I did not use jumper stays as the rig was redesigned. It looked somewhat like this: (This was an older cal25 design) http://captinkid.com/gallery/v/captinkid/boat/race/Boat.jpg.html My camera was not available during the two week sea trial, so I did not get any pictures with the rig up. (My brother in law took some cell phone pictures, but I have not had access to them yet) I installed four stanchions seen here: (Big image) http://captinkid.com/gallery/v/captinkid/boat/mar082007/DSCF0243.JPG.html I don't know about the lifespan of Vectran in the wild, it has a marine UV coating on it to slow degradation so I would hazard a guess at 5 to 10 years of active service. Matthew Wallace Cal20 "Cisco"

Matthew Wallace wrote: > > > > It looked somewhat like this: (This was an older cal25 design) > http://captinkid.com/gallery/v/captinkid/boat/race/Boat.jpg.html > <http://captinkid.com/gallery/v/captinkid/boat/race/Boat.jpg.html> > > > I installed four stanchions seen here: (Big image) > http://captinkid.com/gallery/v/captinkid/boat/mar082007/DSCF0243.JPG.html > <http://captinkid.com/gallery/v/captinkid/boat/mar082007/DSCF0243.JPG.html> > One question leads to another.... Interesting images. In the stanchion photo, are those little round doohickeys along the sheer, where mine has its rubrail, photovoltaic cells? If yes, isn't the angle of the sun inefficient unless you're at a severe angle of heel? Chris Campbell