Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases

Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, somewhat edited by me: Some flex is expected with boats of this type of construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If this distance is 20", then deflection should be less than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a lesser level can weaken the laminate through fatigue. Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to minimize flex in this part of older, single skin boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to do the job and don't also add stress risers where they join other structure. This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation. From: ai… [at] aol.com<mailto:ai… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002>.

If it is a failure, then professional advise might be needed, as a layman, I would first use a moisture meter or a Ultrasonic "look box" to see what was going on. If some failure is happening, or I just was not confident of the area I would reinforce this area on the inside, layers of glass over a wide area to keep the keel on, and strengthen the zone, without making it too hard.

Or... David could "go nuts" and do a Montgomery Street job. Cut the whole keel off and add a new keel with bulb. ----- Original Message ----- From: ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:05 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases If it is a failure, then professional advise might be needed, as a layman, I would first use a moisture meter or a Ultrasonic "look box" to see what was going on. If some failure is happening, or I just was not confident of the area I would reinforce this area on the inside, layers of glass over a wide area to keep the keel on, and strengthen the zone, without making it too hard. From the outside, I would start exploring the "crinkle zone" with a 4" grinder, or maybe a peeler to see if the laminate is sound. Sometimes on fiberglass old boats you can find dry lay-up, or non laminated areas between courses. If all material seemed sound, then I would repair the area, if not sound - determine how far the removal process might be until I was either satisfied I repaired enough area to make the boat sound or decide to abandon the boat. Moisture meters and maybe a UT box could help "premap" the suspect area. Again, not a professional here.. random thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ai… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:01 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002>.

Ple ase include me. Let me know who and where the check goes. Tom Vandiver, Cal 46 # 3, 1967 & Cal 25 # 737, (FL title says 1968) --- Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: > Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, > somewhat edited by me: > > Some flex is expected with boats of this type of > construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest > limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a > panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that > would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel > fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard > that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If > this distance is 20", then deflection should be less > than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a > knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast > bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a > lesser level can weaken the laminate through > fatigue. > Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to > minimize flex in this part of older, single skin > boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be > properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to > do the job and don't also add stress risers where > they join other structure. > > This situation has some ramifications for each of us > with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of > the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. > It could happen to us. > > Here is what I would recommend. > > Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a > naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and > make a recommendation. > > From: > ai… [at] aol.com<mailto:ai… [at] aol.com> > > > To: > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases > > > Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, > I have not had Internet service for a few days. > My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in > the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I > am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. > The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! > There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard > and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. > It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a > boat. There has been some positive and not TOO > expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they > will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank > you all for your help in this matter. > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch > "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL > Food<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002>. >

I'm in. Sent where? Anything for the benefit of Mariposa! Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comFrom: fi… [at] msn.comDate: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:00:10 -0700Subject: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, somewhat edited by me: Some flex is expected with boats of this type of construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If this distance is 20", then deflection should be less than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a lesser level can weaken the laminate through fatigue. Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to minimize flex in this part of older, single skin boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to do the job and don't also add stress risers where they join other structure. This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation. From: ai… [at] aol.com To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey"AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75Santa Barbara Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

Friends, Thanks to ALL of you that have offered opinions and encouragement re: Mariposa¹s heartbreaking medical condition, and to those of you who have simply felt my pain. I feel sort of overwhelmed right now and have other ³stuff² going on that compounds the decision-making process where my beloved ³Mariposa² is concerned. Taking all of your great contributions as advice, plus the sincere further thoughts of the guys at the boat yard, and the Super-Valuable help that Alan Andrews has graciously offered, I have been formulating a plan of action to try and save Mariposa without compromising the safety of the wonderful young people that sail with me (and my own scruffy old carcass.)

Me too. Harleigh From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:51 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" I'm in. Sent where? Anything for the benefit of Mariposa! Reggie _____ To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: fi… [at] msn.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:00:10 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, somewhat edited by me: Some flex is expected with boats of this type of construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If this distance is 20", then deflection should be less than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a lesser level can weaken the laminate through fatigue. Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to minimize flex in this part of older, single skin boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to do the job and don't also add stress risers where they join other structure. This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation. From: airtimeskipper@ <mailto:ai… [at] aol.com> aol.com To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> ps.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch <http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002> "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

Great idea, Fin. I'll join in - let us know the details. Nick From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven . This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation.

Count me in. I've enjoyed the Mariposa's web site. Plus, I would love to see some photos of the heavily modified Cal 28! Bruce Stirling From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of qgold.77 Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:20 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Great idea, Fin. I'll join in - let us know the details. Nick -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven . This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation.

My Cal 31 must have a different set up because it doesn't appear to have much keel flex at all......but I would be happy to contribute to Mariposa's diagnosis. If Wilkie's surveyor figures things out and he doesn't need the naval architect then I am sure this list will find use for the kitty for other professional research.......Let me know where the check goes........ Bob Connell Oly, WA Bruce Stirling <br… [at] stirlinglaw.com> wrote: Count me in. I've enjoyed the Mariposa's web site. Plus, I would love to see some photos of the heavily modified Cal 28! Bruce Stirling -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of qgold.77 Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:20 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Great idea, Fin. I'll join in - let us know the details. Nick -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fin Beven . This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation.