Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation"

Count me in. Here's to old sailboats and the people who love to sail them! Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33, "Quantum Evolution" From: Harleigh Ewell <he… [at] comcast.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:04:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Me too. Harleigh From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:51 PM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" I'm in. Sent where? Anything for the benefit of Mariposa! Reggie To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: finbeven@msn. com Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:00:10 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, somewhat edited by me: Some flex is expected with boats of this type of construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If this distance is 20", then deflection should be less than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a lesser level can weaken the laminate through fatigue. Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to minimize flex in this part of older, single skin boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to do the job and don't also add stress risers where they join other structure. This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation. From:airtimeskipper@ aol.com To:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent:Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM Subject:Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

I'm game too. Count my $25 in, just let us know where to send it! Jean-Louis Fallon Casa de Perro Cal 20 San Pedro, CA From: Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:00:10 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, somewhat edited by me: Some flex is expected with boats of this type of construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If this distance is 20", then deflection should be less than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a lesser level can weaken the laminate through fatigue. Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to minimize flex in this part of older, single skin boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to do the job and don't also add stress risers where they join other structure. This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation. From: airtimeskipper@ aol.com To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and my unsolicited worthless opinions. Cheers; Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Contribute... YOU BET! Count us in! Let us know where to send! Wilkie, we feel for you... Gregg & Dannae Puget Sound Cal 3-29 #1008 In a message dated 5/22/2008 7:00:54 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, fi… [at] msn.com writes: Alan Andrews had a bit more to say about this, somewhat edited by me: Some flex is expected with boats of this type of construction. Most fiberglass design guides suggest limiting deflection to less than 2% of the span of a panel. In the typical Cal boat of the era that would be 2% of the distance from the where the keel fin meets the hull to the next stiffener outboard that is bonded to the hull, often a bunk front. If this distance is 20", then deflection should be less than .4" at maximum load. Maximum load would be a knockdown with the boat on it's side and the ballast bending the keel. Repeated flexing, even at a lesser level can weaken the laminate through fatigue. Incorporating some sort of transverse structure to minimize flex in this part of older, single skin boats will improve fatigue life. It has to be properly done so the stiffeners are strong enough to do the job and don't also add stress risers where they join other structure. This situation has some ramifications for each of us with "old style" Cals with keels that are part of the hull structure. It has happened to Mariposa. It could happen to us. Here is what I would recommend. Each of us contribute $25 to a fund to employ a naval architect to study the Mariposa Situation and make a recommendation. From: _airtimeskipper@airtime_ (mailto:ai… [at] aol.com) To: _Cal_Boats@yahoogrouCal_Bo_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Mariposa & similar cases Sorry folks for the delayed reply to this thread, I have not had Internet service for a few days. My boat is sitting side by side with Mariposa in the yard and I was there when she was hauled out. I am telling you folks, this wobble was NOT normal. The keel looked like it was hanging from rubber! There is some odd looking wrinkle at the garboard and all the bottom paint has been flicked off there. It was the damndest thing I have ever seen on a boat. There has been some positive and not TOO expensive suggestions for fixes that seem like they will give Mariposa many more years in service. Thank you all for your help in this matter. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

And as the treasurer for the Cal-40 fleet, and as this is certainly a potentially "global" issue for us Cal-boaters, I'll commit the Cal-40 fleet for an additional $100 to determine a "fix" that may help all of us ..... if Dave is OK with this. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: ai… [at] aol.com<mailto:ai… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and my unsolicited worthless opinions. Cheers; Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food<http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002>.

On May 22, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Fin Beven wrote: > > And as the treasurer for the Cal-40 fleet, and as this is certainly > a potentially "global" issue for us Cal-boaters, I'll commit the > Cal-40 fleet for an additional $100 to determine a "fix" that may > help all of us .... if Dave is OK with this. > I think the idea of a Montgomery Street fix should not be ruled out if it comes to that. JIm Denning would have some advice about that. What they did was strip the boat and turn it over onto some oil drums. They then cut off the keel with a sawzall. Designing the floors and keel stub would be the challenge. I have enough invested to be willing to consider such a fix if necessary. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > Fin. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ai… [at] aol.com > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" > > I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and > my unsolicited worthless opinions. > > Cheers; > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. > >

You can count me in for $25. While performing the investigation into a long term economical fix, cause, including design, material, manufacturing defects or just plain fatigue from over use should be considered. Additionally, a group of us from different locations could do a survey of local yards and pick there brains for experience in fixes before considering hiring a consultant to figure out why. We will surly become more informed prior to utilizing the expertise of a consultant. Or since often the cost of the repair by a reputable yard may be close to the cost of a consultant, and since Wilke has shared so much of his experience with us, I propose that the money be donated to fix his boat! And, while there fixing his boat he can photograph and document the process for future Cal reference. Just thinking creatively Mark Cal 2-29 Pelican San Pedro From: Fin Beven To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" And as the treasurer for the Cal-40 fleet, and as this is certainly a potentially "global" issue for us Cal-boaters, I'll commit the Cal-40 fleet for an additional $100 to determine a "fix" that may help all of us .... if Dave is OK with this. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: ai… [at] aol.com To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and my unsolicited worthless opinions. Cheers; Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3124 (20080522) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

I'll kick in some cash for analysis. Michael Duvall s/v Magic, Cal 2-27, #627 Pompano Beach, FL ai… [at] aol.com wrote: I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and my unsolicited worthless opinions. Cheers; Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara --------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

Hey Guys, I haven't chimed in, in a long time .... I certainly see the value of having a serious study done. Count me in for $25 as well. Somebody shoot me a note to say where to send it. John Trevvett "Simpatico" Cal 28 #336 Gloucester, VA Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: And as the treasurer for the Cal-40 fleet, and as this is certainly a potentially "global" issue for us Cal-boaters, I'll commit the Cal-40 fleet for an additional $100 to determine a "fix" that may help all of us .... if Dave is OK with this. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: ai… [at] aol.com To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and my unsolicited worthless opinions. Cheers; Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara --------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. John Trevvvett ProFish, Ltd. 757-642-6178

Dave for the investiment we have put into these boats over the years why not 50 dollars we have a lot to preserve . lets know what an expert can tell us if you spred is over all of us it is all good info Dave Paulson Allergia Cal334 From: "Michael Kennedy" <mt… [at] cox.net> To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" > > On May 22, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Fin Beven wrote: > >> >> And as the treasurer for the Cal-40 fleet, and as this is certainly >> a potentially "global" issue for us Cal-boaters, I'll commit the >> Cal-40 fleet for an additional $100 to determine a "fix" that may >> help all of us .... if Dave is OK with this. >> > I think the idea of a Montgomery Street fix should not be ruled out if > it comes to that. JIm Denning would have some advice about that. What > they did was strip the boat and turn it over onto some oil drums. They > then cut off the keel with a sawzall. Designing the floors and keel > stub would be the challenge. I have enough invested to be willing to > consider such a fix if necessary. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > >> Fin. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: ai… [at] aol.com >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:12 PM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" >> >> I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and >> my unsolicited worthless opinions. >> >> Cheers; >> >> Daniel Casey >> "AirTime" >> Cal 9.2R #75 >> Santa Barbara >> >> >> >> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler >> Florence" on AOL Food. >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

I got a good idea. What about filling the sub floor area above the lead, and below the interior deck, with structural foam, and then fiberglassing over it, so the fiberglass would span the top of the fillet, and feathering it to the inside of the hull? It would turn the flexible area into a solid v-shaped truss, very strong, very resistant to flexure of any kind. Hey, I'm no engineer by training, but I feel it's in the jeans, which if the keel falls of catastrophically, would get might damp mighty quick! I think the other idea, which has already been done, is to build up an exteriour surface fillet between the bottom of the hull and the vertical of the keel with layers of fiberglass, This should work too, and less messy than the damp jeans solution. I guess the question is how many layers, how thick, and how wide a fillet, etc. Jerry Jerry --- On Fri, 5/23/08, Paulson &lt;dp… [at] socal.rr.com&gt; wrote: From: Paulson &lt;dp… [at] socal.rr.com&gt; Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 23, 2008, 6:21 PM Dave for the investiment we have put into these boats over the years why not 50 dollars we have a lot to preserve . lets know what an expert can tell us if you spred is over all of us it is all good info Dave Paulson Allergia Cal334 From: "Michael Kennedy" &lt;mt… [at] cox.net&gt; To: &lt;Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" &gt; &gt; On May 22, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Fin Beven wrote: &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; And as the treasurer for the Cal-40 fleet, and as this is certainly &gt;&gt; a potentially "global" issue for us Cal-boaters, I'll commit the &gt;&gt; Cal-40 fleet for an additional $100 to determine a "fix" that may &gt;&gt; help all of us .... if Dave is OK with this. &gt;&gt; &gt; I think the idea of a Montgomery Street fix should not be ruled out if &gt; it comes to that. JIm Denning would have some advice about that. What &gt; they did was strip the boat and turn it over onto some oil drums. They &gt; then cut off the keel with a sawzall. Designing the floors and keel &gt; stub would be the challenge. I have enough invested to be willing to &gt; consider such a fix if necessary. &gt; &gt; Mike Kennedy &gt; Conquest Cal 40 # 96 &gt; &gt;&gt; Fin. &gt;&gt; ----- Original Message ----- &gt;&gt; From: ai… [at] aol.com &gt;&gt; To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com &gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 7:12 PM &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] The "Mariposa Situation" &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I am certainly in for $25.00, 7 Margaritas, a shoulder to cry on and &gt;&gt; my unsolicited worthless opinions. &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Cheers; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Daniel Casey &gt;&gt; "AirTime" &gt;&gt; Cal 9.2R #75 &gt;&gt; Santa Barbara &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler &gt;&gt; Florence" on AOL Food. &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ------------------------------------ &gt; &gt; Yahoo! Groups Links &gt; &gt; &gt; ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links &lt;*&gt; To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/ &lt;*&gt; Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional &lt;*&gt; To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/join (Yahoo! ID required) &lt;*&gt; To change settings via email: mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com &lt;*&gt; To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com &lt;*&gt; Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

An engineer friend of mine, before he passed, had made the structural foam suggestion to me regarding the "dreaded beam". While my beam is still in pretty decent shape for 31 years, when speaking with him about replacing it, he'd suggested just filling the space with structural foam. I'm no engineer and don't remember all of the figures of sail area v. wind v. motion v. whatever else he said rolled into the computation, but am confident in his calculations that the foam would support anything that I'd ever put the boat through. Anyway, I think that Jerry has a solution worth investigating further.... And count me in for $25 - just let me know when and where to send it. Best, John Caldwell 1977 2-29, #966 --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > I got a good idea. > What about filling the sub floor area above the lead, and below the interior deck, with structural foam, and then fiberglassing over it, so the fiberglass would span the top of the fillet, and feathering it to the inside of the hull? It would turn the flexible area into a solid v- shaped truss, very strong, very resistant to flexure of any kind. Hey, I'm no engineer by training, but I feel it's in the jeans, which if the keel falls of catastrophically, would get might damp mighty quick!

Guys, I am swamped with work in addition to Mariposa sitting in the yard at $45 per day, so I am slow to respond to email these days. This post is too long and sort of disjointed as an additional result of the taxes on my time and energy. Sorry. Although I am moved by the show of support for Mariposa and her plight, I also realize that the issue of funding a Naval Architect to study the problem is worthwhile only because we all share the same design issues as our boats age. The idea of a fund to address this issue on all Cal boats with internal ballasted molded keels is great and I will contribute as well. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the "other" idea of donating those monies to Mariposa's repair bill, as an alternative to the NA study, but I have to decline any such offers since there are many other worthy Cal owners out there with more need than I. Mariposa's repair bills will be looked at realistically, because she's been raced hard for the last 7 years and the glorious awl-grip is getting tired. The decks are soft and the BMW engine is a question mark. Maybe she's a never ending series of $5 to $10 thousand projects over the next five to ten years? I never thought I was capable of scrutinizing these costs -- mainly because I've enjoyed doing the work myself in the past. I no longer seem to muster that kind of energy, however. This leads me to think it may be time for me to pass Mariposa's stewardship over to a younger or more dedicated owner. I'm not sure that I can do that, but I'm thinking along those lines. Mike Pyzel said he wouldn't hesitate to buy her if I wanted to sell her, though he's not in the market. He thinks minor stiffening will prepare her to sail for many more years. The Yard quoted me $5,000 each for the two methods of repair that they put forth (external laminations faired into the garboard area Or internal floors under a new salon sole.) I believe that I can install the internal floors and stiffening layers with a new teak & holly sole for about $500 by supplying my own fairly expert labor and tools. I am well down the road to researching and formulating a plan of action. I will document it thoroughly and share it with all of you that want to put the time in to read my posts. Hopefully I can find some time to update Mariposa's web page as well. I already have some fairly good ideas of how to stiffen her up, but an important question is "how much" to stiffen her up. Adding too much rigidity would seem more likely than not enough; transferring loads to a new area should be good, but transferring too much load to a concentrated area may create new problems. Regards, David "Wilkie" Owen