Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul)

I agree, heading up 10 degrees will have the same effect, with one small problem. I'm assuming you're in a tight race and have achieved a tactical position that suits you at the time. Heading up on the rolls has the possible affect of losing your position on your competition. Trimming the sheet at the same time as the mast is vertical will kill the roll without changing your position. It is harder work and usually requires at least two people, one to grind and one to trim with 3 to 4 wraps on the winch, but trimming saves your advantage on the other boats. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 8:08:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds. What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft. We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary. The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@sbcglobal. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ ipc.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. Stay informed, get connected and more

We had an overnight race blowing 20-25 and we had to sail as close to ?dead down as we could for 2 hours at night to avoid a shoal (we didn't have boats around us but didn't want to gybe at night in those conditions because we'd have to gybe back too) so we just choked the chute down, put everyone but the trimmer on the stern and dealt with it.? We'd head up a few degrees if it got crazy but we managed to miss the shoal and make it thru the night w/o incident. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) I agree, heading up 10 degrees will have the same effect, with one small problem.? I'm assuming you're in a tight race and have achieved a tactical position that suits you at the time.? Heading up on the rolls has the possible affect of losing your position on your competition.? Trimming the sheet at the same time as the mast is vertical will kill the roll without changing your position.? It is harder work and usually requires at least two people, one to grind and one to trim with 3 to 4 wraps on the winch, but trimming saves your advantage on the other boats. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 8:08:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds.? What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft.? We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary.? The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@sbcglobal. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level.? I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing.? If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker.? This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat.? As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll.? This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll.? Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique.? Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ ipc.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. Stay informed, get connected and more

On Freewind, which is an old IOR type 1/2 tonner, we set up the kite so that it is in slight round-up condition. I do not want a trimmer to adjust the sails, as I can drive better, without the change, and "slingshot" more on waves. The trimmer is there in case of emergency, to give me a second chance. Our call is "gimmee room" or "ROOM!" Usually this is a payout of @ 12" and then a quick crank back. We have a sheeting system where anyone in the cockpit can kick a release, and the sheet automatically pays out 12-18", then the line must be reeled back in to avoid flogging or round down. When driving this squirrelly boat downwind, I must always keep the following in mind: 1. never let the boat go where it wants to, the boat will always want to round up or down. BE IN CHARGE of the boat. 2. anticipate the boat motion, after sailing a while, you know when the boat will head up or down, or oscillate up or down. Make the correction before the motion starts. 3. use a mental picture that helps, I use two scenarios, my hand always travels the the high side to push it down, so if the starboard deck starts to rise, I move the tiller to that side, to push it back down. the second is to imagine the mast as a pencil balanced on end, at the end of your finger. Try this, it matches the boat action, if it moves to the right, you must move your finger to the right, to maintain balance, if you anticipate, before the pencil moves, you can maintain balance. The more you correct late and the greater your correction, the more the pencil will swing, until you are out of control. Keep the boat under the mast. 4. Crew balance greatly affects the way the boat handles, even on our 7,000 pound boat, I can change the attitude of the boat just by moving the helmsman to the other side of the cockpit. Experiment with crew locations that set the boat up correctly. 5. once you master some of these techniques, you can set the boat up, by purposely starting an oscillation, to power up the boat, then correct it immediately to get the boat flat to slingshot a surf. On Freewind, in moderate air, I can get her to surf over her bow wave using this technique, and pick up a quick 2-3 knot increase. We call it swing or bow surfing. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Dutton Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:34 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) I agree, heading up 10 degrees will have the same effect, with one small problem. I'm assuming you're in a tight race and have achieved a tactical position that suits you at the time. Heading up on the rolls has the possible affect of losing your position on your competition. Trimming the sheet at the same time as the mast is vertical will kill the roll without changing your position. It is harder work and usually requires at least two people, one to grind and one to trim with 3 to 4 wraps on the winch, but trimming saves your advantage on the other boats. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 8:08:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds. What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft. We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary. The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@sbcglobal. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ ipc.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com <mailto:timmothy.lessley%40ch2m.com> Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> > to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. Stay informed, get connected and more

.... continued. Once all the prior advise is absorbed and it works for you, consider this final note. As the boat slows after a surf, do not just wait for the next event by keeping the helm straight. Initiate the next round by immediately powering the boat back up, swing the bow back to weather to load her up, and then back to the next bow or sea wave to start the next surf cycle. If you let the boat slow down, and then power up, while the rudder is stalled or inefficient, the oscillation cycle will tend to be more intense. Pre action, builds the power while the rudder is attached, and the boat is elevated out of the water in surfing condition. We have chained together dozens of surfs using this technique, out performing our short boat problem of flotation verses waterline. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:07 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) On Freewind, which is an old IOR type 1/2 tonner, we set up the kite so that it is in slight round-up condition. I do not want a trimmer to adjust the sails, as I can drive better, without the change, and "slingshot" more on waves. The trimmer is there in case of emergency, to give me a second chance. Our call is "gimmee room" or "ROOM!" Usually this is a payout of @ 12" and then a quick crank back. We have a sheeting system where anyone in the cockpit can kick a release, and the sheet automatically pays out 12-18", then the line must be reeled back in to avoid flogging or round down. When driving this squirrelly boat downwind, I must always keep the following in mind: 1. never let the boat go where it wants to, the boat will always want to round up or down. BE IN CHARGE of the boat. 2. anticipate the boat motion, after sailing a while, you know when the boat will head up or down, or oscillate up or down. Make the correction before the motion starts. 3. use a mental picture that helps, I use two scenarios, my hand always travels the the high side to push it down, so if the starboard deck starts to rise, I move the tiller to that side, to push it back down. the second is to imagine the mast as a pencil balanced on end, at the end of your finger. Try this, it matches the boat action, if it moves to the right, you must move your finger to the right, to maintain balance, if you anticipate, before the pencil moves, you can maintain balance. The more you correct late and the greater your correction, the more the pencil will swing, until you are out of control. Keep the boat under the mast. 4. Crew balance greatly affects the way the boat handles, even on our 7,000 pound boat, I can change the attitude of the boat just by moving the helmsman to the other side of the cockpit. Experiment with crew locations that set the boat up correctly. 5. once you master some of these techniques, you can set the boat up, by purposely starting an oscillation, to power up the boat, then correct it immediately to get the boat flat to slingshot a surf. On Freewind, in moderate air, I can get her to surf over her bow wave using this technique, and pick up a quick 2-3 knot increase. We call it swing or bow surfing. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Dutton Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:34 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) I agree, heading up 10 degrees will have the same effect, with one small problem. I'm assuming you're in a tight race and have achieved a tactical position that suits you at the time. Heading up on the rolls has the possible affect of losing your position on your competition. Trimming the sheet at the same time as the mast is vertical will kill the roll without changing your position. It is harder work and usually requires at least two people, one to grind and one to trim with 3 to 4 wraps on the winch, but trimming saves your advantage on the other boats. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 8:08:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds. What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft. We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary. The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@sbcglobal. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ ipc.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com <mailto:timmothy.lessley%40ch2m.com> Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> > to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. Stay informed, get connected and more

The knowledge that you people impart is absolutely incredible. It is actually exciting to read some of these emails (I know - get a life Connell). I only wish I had started sailing years ago and had been on this list since it's inception so that I could better grasp the lessons you are all providing. The technical know-how I would have picked up and the chance to know and interact with people like Roger would have made me a better sailor. I am priveledged to have found this list and will look forward to sharing time with you all over the coming years.... To Roger, though I only recently became aware of you, I am in humble respect of the reverence with which members of this list have honored your passing. You were a tribute to your community and have left a pay-it-forward legacy among these your friends. Fair winds. Bob Connell ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: On Freewind, which is an old IOR type 1/2 tonner, we set up the kite so that it is in slight round-up condition. I do not want a trimmer to adjust the sails, as I can drive better, without the change, and "slingshot" more on waves. The trimmer is there in case of emergency, to give me a second chance. Our call is "gimmee room" or "ROOM!" Usually this is a payout of @ 12" and then a quick crank back. We have a sheeting system where anyone in the cockpit can kick a release, and the sheet automatically pays out 12-18", then the line must be reeled back in to avoid flogging or round down. When driving this squirrelly boat downwind, I must always keep the following in mind: 1. never let the boat go where it wants to, the boat will always want to round up or down. BE IN CHARGE of the boat. 2. anticipate the boat motion, after sailing a while, you know when the boat will head up or down, or oscillate up or down. Make the correction before the motion starts. 3. use a mental picture that helps, I use two scenarios, my hand always travels the the high side to push it down, so if the starboard deck starts to rise, I move the tiller to that side, to push it back down. the second is to imagine the mast as a pencil balanced on end, at the end of your finger. Try this, it matches the boat action, if it moves to the right, you must move your finger to the right, to maintain balance, if you anticipate, before the pencil moves, you can maintain balance. The more you correct late and the greater your correction, the more the pencil will swing, until you are out of control. Keep the boat under the mast. 4. Crew balance greatly affects the way the boat handles, even on our 7,000 pound boat, I can change the attitude of the boat just by moving the helmsman to the other side of the cockpit. Experiment with crew locations that set the boat up correctly. 5. once you master some of these techniques, you can set the boat up, by purposely starting an oscillation, to power up the boat, then correct it immediately to get the boat flat to slingshot a surf. On Freewind, in moderate air, I can get her to surf over her bow wave using this technique, and pick up a quick 2-3 knot increase. We call it swing or bow surfing. --------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Dutton Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:34 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) I agree, heading up 10 degrees will have the same effect, with one small problem. I'm assuming you're in a tight race and have achieved a tactical position that suits you at the time. Heading up on the rolls has the possible affect of losing your position on your competition. Trimming the sheet at the same time as the mast is vertical will kill the roll without changing your position. It is harder work and usually requires at least two people, one to grind and one to trim with 3 to 4 wraps on the winch, but trimming saves your advantage on the other boats. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" ----- Original Message ---- From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 8:08:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds. What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft. We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary. The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@sbcglobal. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" ----- Original Message ---- From: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ ipc.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. --------------------------------- Stay informed, get connected and more

Wow, I'll print this one out and run it by the skipper. Thanks td From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tue 6/3/2008 1:06 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) On Freewind, which is an old IOR type 1/2 tonner, we set up the kite so that it is in slight round-up condition. I do not want a trimmer to adjust the sails, as I can drive better, without the change, and "slingshot" more on waves. The trimmer is there in case of emergency, to give me a second chance. Our call is "gimmee room" or "ROOM!" Usually this is a payout of @ 12" and then a quick crank back. We have a sheeting system where anyone in the cockpit can kick a release, and the sheet automatically pays out 12-18", then the line must be reeled back in to avoid flogging or round down. When driving this squirrelly boat downwind, I must always keep the following in mind: 1. never let the boat go where it wants to, the boat will always want to round up or down. BE IN CHARGE of the boat. 2. anticipate the boat motion, after sailing a while, you know when the boat will head up or down, or oscillate up or down. Make the correction before the motion starts. 3. use a mental picture that helps, I use two scenarios, my hand always travels the the high side to push it down, so if the starboard deck starts to rise, I move the tiller to that side, to push it back down. the second is to imagine the mast as a pencil balanced on end, at the end of your finger. Try this, it matches the boat action, if it moves to the right, you must move your finger to the right, to maintain balance, if you anticipate, before the pencil moves, you can maintain balance. The more you correct late and the greater your correction, the more the pencil will swing, until you are out of control. Keep the boat under the mast. 4. Crew balance greatly affects the way the boat handles, even on our 7,000 pound boat, I can change the attitude of the boat just by moving the helmsman to the other side of the cockpit. Experiment with crew locations that set the boat up correctly. 5. once you master some of these techniques, you can set the boat up, by purposely starting an oscillation, to power up the boat, then correct it immediately to get the boat flat to slingshot a surf. On Freewind, in moderate air, I can get her to surf over her bow wave using this technique, and pick up a quick 2-3 knot increase. We call it swing or bow surfing. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Dutton Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:34 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Fin, Paul) I agree, heading up 10 degrees will have the same effect, with one small problem. I'm assuming you're in a tight race and have achieved a tactical position that suits you at the time. Heading up on the rolls has the possible affect of losing your position on your competition. Trimming the sheet at the same time as the mast is vertical will kill the roll without changing your position. It is harder work and usually requires at least two people, one to grind and one to trim with 3 to 4 wraps on the winch, but trimming saves your advantage on the other boats. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 8:08:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds. What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft. We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary. The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@sbcglobal. net> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ ipc.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com <mailto:timmothy.lessley%40ch2m.com> Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> > to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. 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