Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas)

This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Th… [at] ipc.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.

As an alternative, try this ... When the boat is in the middle of an oscillation (mast vertical), turn the boat sharply 10 - 15 degrees closer to the wind (the side the spinnaker pole is on). The oscillations will stop. Adjust control lines as needed. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Dutton<mailto:dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" ----- Original Message ---- From: "Downing, Thomas" <Th… [at] ipc.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td -----Original Message----- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com<mailto:timmothy.lessley%40ch2m.com> Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d<http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured> <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d<http://tinyurl.com/42kggasecured>> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO -----Original Message----- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.

Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds.? What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft.? We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary.? The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level.? I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing.? If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker.? This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat.? As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll.? This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll.? Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique.? Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Th… [at] ipc.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.

Thanks, I'll suggest that and see what sort of reaction I get BTW, these are really fun boats to sail. 30' OA, about 28-29 WL, only about 5.5` beam, about 1' freeboard, very little shear, open cockpit. 3/4 fractional with the mast well ahead of the keel, very long boom, lots of mainsail. Very fast, even on their ear, which is where they are often sailed. td From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Donald Dutton Sent: Tue 6/3/2008 10:55 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Th… [at] ipc.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************************************************* This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.

We go downwind with two in the stern, jib sheet midships, and foredeck ready aft of the mast (4 man crew is the drill.) The boats sail very hot dead downwind, so the experienced skippers sail no more that about 10 degrees off dead when the mark is dead downwind. Sailing more on the wind will lose the leg. Needless to say, the roll problem is worst when going exactly the same speed as the chop. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tue 6/3/2008 11:08 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Our experience with rolling come from sailing dead down in high winds.? What we do is choke the chute down and get it as close to the deck as possible to reduce the leverage the wind has aloft.? We tweaked it down hard, didn't play it, and put everyone on the stern with the exception of the guy holding onto the chute so he could blow it if necessary.? The rolling will also stop if you head up a few degrees. Paul From: Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level.? I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing.? If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker.? This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat.? As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll.? This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll.? Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique.? Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Th… [at] ipc.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. 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I believe Paul Bert Elvstrøm once said: If you are tied off, you are loosing. In other words start off with a standard setting, crew position, halyard tensions, backstay pressure, sheeting angles, etc. and the tune for optimum, and check often as/when anything changes. My Nexus instruments have a nice feature, they record performance for an interval. Then you press the tune button, and make a change in your set-up. The instruments show what percentage increase of decrease in speed is achieved with the change. We use this to play with set-ups a fair amount in the beginning of a race, and whenever we make sail changes in stronger weather.. to confirm if we have picked the right sail. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:11 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) Thanks, I'll suggest that and see what sort of reaction I get BTW, these are really fun boats to sail. 30' OA, about 28-29 WL, only about 5.5` beam, about 1' freeboard, very little shear, open cockpit. 3/4 fractional with the mast well ahead of the keel, very long boom, lots of mainsail. Very fast, even on their ear, which is where they are often sailed. td From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Donald Dutton Sent: Tue 6/3/2008 10:55 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling (Thomas) This is similar to the same effect that can crash motorcycles at speed where an oscillation begins and if it is not countered, it can build to a destructive level. I would try to control it with sheet tensioning and easing. If on port tack and the boat begins to roll to port, try sharply trimming the starboard sheet and flattening the spinnaker. This should overpower the chute and pull the boat back flat. As the boat tries to roll back to starboard, time the easing of the sheet with the roll so that the spinnaker stays in one position with the wind as the boat tries to roll. This should lower the leeward pull of the chute and ease the force on the roll. Since you said that the boats sail more like dinghies than keel boats this is the technique that I used in Flying Scots in high wind oscillations and I was also successful keeping an Olson 34 flat in a 4' D-chop and 28 knots of wind on Galveston Bay with this technique. Let me know what you think. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" From: "Downing, Thomas" <Th… [at] ipc.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 4:50:48 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling Thanks for the response. By "spinnaker roll" I was referring to the situation where the boat begins to roll, with the roll angle increasing with each oscillation - something to do with apparent wind changes during the roll accelerating the roll, as I understand it. During these roll events, there is no marked tendency to round up or down. We had the "beetle" quite high, with the shoulders well filled out, no luffing. Hauling the tweekers brought the beetle down, but it did not affect the rolling. I'm not experienced with Atlantic 30's, but while keelboats, they sail a lot more like dinghys. Some of the skippers in this fleet are Nationals winners - so I figure they know something. I notice that spin techniques are a bit different on these boats. Nobody sails with the clews at the same height - the pole end is always a bit higher. Also, the pole is kept forward of 90 to the apparent, and the outboard end is carried much higher than the mast end. Lastly, the the edge of the spinnaker is set so that it goes up slightly outside of the pole tip. td From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com on behalf of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Mon 6/2/2008 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handling spinnaker rolling I'm not sure what you mean by roll, but if you are not in severe winds or seas, it should be possible to get the spinnaker in balance with the boat. For starters as the wind is lighter we tend to carry the pole higher, making the "Beetle back" shape as High up the spinnaker as possible. Sometimes sailors call this matching the clews, the spinnaker should be flying squarely, ie matching clew heights with the center seam hanging dickular, vertical. In moderate conditions one trim note is to make sure the leading edge of the spinnaker comes straight up off the tip of the spinnaker pole. If it is beyond the pole, you are in round down position, and if it is inside the pole you are in round up position. As wind increases, always avoid the round down position. Next try starting with the pole 90 degrees to the apparent wind and keeping the boom in a straight line with the boom. You should notice that if you over tighten the sheet, the boat tends to round up, and if you loosen the sheet, the boat tends to wobble, and round down. This is why when you start to round up, loosen the sheet, and if you start to round down, tighten the sheet. As the winds or seas start to perk up, we typically make sure to have the outgrabber http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d <http://tinyurl. com/42kggasecure d> to the sheet, and twingers to keep the kite from oscillating. In more difficult conditions we keep the kite slightly over sheeted, to make sure we round up. The trimmer mans the sheet so he can feed out a foot or so of sheet, if the helmsman starts to get into trouble. If you round down, the least of your worries is breaking the spinnaker pole, often the mast goes too. If you have the main prevented, the you will experience the famous "death roll" where the prevented main drives the boat over farther maybe until 180 inverted. a death roll picture. DEATH ROLL (My crew member Andy, under the GG Bridge) OUTGRABBER ON STAN AND SALLY HONEY'S CAL 40 ILLUSION With the sheet just a tad oversheeted, it is up to the driver to weave the course using the waves to try and get surfs and vary the wind angle just enough to sail either side of the optimum wind angle to maintain control and keep the boat on it's feet. Some boats tend to go bow down with the spinnaker up, if you notice the bow dipping a fair amount, typically just before a surf, or in a puff, you might consider moving the crew as far aft as possible. So like skipping a stone, creating a better angle with the boat bow for the boat to lift and accelerate, verses digging a hole, stalling the rudder, and then crashing. Cheers, dEmO From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> ] On Behalf Of Downing, Thomas Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:20 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Handling spinnaker rolling I was out yesterday (on an Atlantic 30, not a Cal 2-27), we were running about 15 degrees off a dead run with the chute up - and ran into a lot of that nasty induced rolling. At one point we seemed headed for disaster (the boom dug in last roll, and we were just coming up from a roll that nearly had the spin pole in) when we were saved when the spin halyard somehow popped out of the cleat. We hauled it back up without it getting in the water, and it certainly did stop the rolling; but there's got to be a better way! We had been playing with tweekers and pole, but nothing seemed to help. So, any suggestions as to how to control roll without giving up boat speed? thanks td DISCLAIMER: Important Notice ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* * This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.