Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure - culprit identified perhaps

I've seen boats wired in many strange and wonderful ways. I didn't talk about a ground wire off for a couple of reasons, one it was already mentioned, two I assumed that since you didn't say that all your 12 volt circuits were dead, a bad ground was less likely. Typically there will be one wire that ties your grounds back to the battery, if you have more than one wire or multiple bus bars, each handling a set of circuits, you can have a set of circuits fail rather than everything. Though not preferred, a small wire can work without causing problems if it is short. ABYC doesn't want anything less than 16 gage on a boat. 10 gage wire is 1 ohm per 1000 feet, and the resistance doubles or halves for every 3 gage sizes, so 22 gage wire is 16 ohms per 1000 feet, one foot will be 0.016 ohms. If that is handling 10 amps of current, that's 0.16 volts drop for that one section. If the rest of your wiring is excellent, then that 1.6% drop is not too bad, not real good though. The other concern is ampacity, or how much heat you generate in the wire and it depends on the insulation rating of the wire. I'd have to get out another book, but I would guess that 22 gage wire is not rated for 10 amps for ampacity. Here's a recommended voltage drop, resistance and ampacity table. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/CircuitProtect.htm John From: Bob Connell <jo… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 7:58:04 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure - culprit identified perhaps John: thanks for the test description. ..when I am back down on the boat I will use your diagnostics, however after I returned home.... Ron Eddleman's comment about grounding got me thinking. There was an unattached black ground wire (20-22 gauge) attached on the back of the panel at one end and unattached on the other. Due to the size I assumed that it was residual from some other historic component installation but it's possible that while I was pumping out oil during an oil change I pulled it loose from the engine somewhere. Even though it was a pretty light gauge wire, perhaps it was the critical ground for some of the breakers.... ....The timing with the oil change certainly makes that suspect..... .. Thanks for the help.....Bob John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> wrote: That is diagram 2 on the linked web page, not the auto combiner circuit above diagram 2. John From: John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:26:57 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure If the motor gets its power through your main 1/2/both switch, then that switch is not bad. The main battery switch has on the back 1, 2, and a third post labeled something like "out", or "common" (common does not mean negative here, it means the post that the power goes to anytime the switch is in any of the on positions). Just to make sure, you're putting the black multimeter lead somewhere on the negative buss bar, not on the common on your main switch? Then reading the voltages on the main switch with the other lead? And the red multimeter lead on 1 reads 13, 2 reads 13, and the third post reads 13? Well if the switch is in the off position, the third post should read 0. If this is true then the voltage is getting through your main switch. Next goto the busbar on your circuit breaker panel with the red lead. If that is 0 with the main switch in one of the on positions, then the wire or its connections at either end are bad or loose. If you don't have busbars, then you will have a place where the wire from your main switch goes to a place where several wires fan out to all of your circuit breaker/switches. Since you have several 12 volt (presumably on separate circuits) devices out, the fault should be before you get to the individual breaker/switches. I'm assuming that your circuit looks something like the one found on the middle of the page on this link. http://fishing- boats.info/ Electrics. htm Sorry if I went too far, I don't know your experience with electricity. John From: Bob Connell <jollygoodolywa@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:48:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure Well...here I am on the boat getting it ready for the Puget Sound Cal Rendezvous next weekend, on shore power, when out of the blue I realize that I have no power to the potable water pump, the cabin lights, bilge pump, the transducer, etc. etc. There is 120v in the outlets. I crawl into the lazarette and take the panel off the back of the power panel...find 110 power to my battery chargers and 13 volts coming out.....I have 13 volts to the back of the switches on the original panel that say, battery one, both, battery 2, off. The motor starts. Any fuses I could find were okay. One of the wandering dock mates said......"looks like that switch is shot". I reallize this panel has been working since 1979...but I was not working on anything electrical so I am surprised that it would give out like that. I also understand that trying to diagnose an electical problem with the limited info we have is impossible.. ...but maybe some of you have experienced similar failures and have an idea where I can measure my outputs to aid in the diagnosis. No lights is no fun.......to say nothing of the handiness of a bilge pump......thanks all.... Bob Connell Oly Wa.

if it is in fact the culprit then I am going to definitely replace it with 16 gauge.......in this case Size does Matter. Thanks for all the info......Bob John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I've seen boats wired in many strange and wonderful ways. I didn't talk about a ground wire off for a couple of reasons, one it was already mentioned, two I assumed that since you didn't say that all your 12 volt circuits were dead, a bad ground was less likely. Typically there will be one wire that ties your grounds back to the battery, if you have more than one wire or multiple bus bars, each handling a set of circuits, you can have a set of circuits fail rather than everything. Though not preferred, a small wire can work without causing problems if it is short. ABYC doesn't want anything less than 16 gage on a boat. 10 gage wire is 1 ohm per 1000 feet, and the resistance doubles or halves for every 3 gage sizes, so 22 gage wire is 16 ohms per 1000 feet, one foot will be 0.016 ohms. If that is handling 10 amps of current, that's 0.16 volts drop for that one section. If the rest of your wiring is excellent, then that 1.6% drop is not too bad, not real good though. The other concern is ampacity, or how much heat you generate in the wire and it depends on the insulation rating of the wire. I'd have to get out another book, but I would guess that 22 gage wire is not rated for 10 amps for ampacity. Here's a recommended voltage drop, resistance and ampacity table. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/CircuitProtect.htm John ----- Original Message ---- From: Bob Connell <jo… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 7:58:04 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure - culprit identified perhaps John: thanks for the test description. ..when I am back down on the boat I will use your diagnostics, however after I returned home.... Ron Eddleman's comment about grounding got me thinking. There was an unattached black ground wire (20-22 gauge) attached on the back of the panel at one end and unattached on the other. Due to the size I assumed that it was residual from some other historic component installation but it's possible that while I was pumping out oil during an oil change I pulled it loose from the engine somewhere. Even though it was a pretty light gauge wire, perhaps it was the critical ground for some of the breakers.... ....The timing with the oil change certainly makes that suspect..... .. Thanks for the help.....Bob John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> wrote: That is diagram 2 on the linked web page, not the auto combiner circuit above diagram 2. John ----- Original Message ---- From: John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:26:57 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure If the motor gets its power through your main 1/2/both switch, then that switch is not bad. The main battery switch has on the back 1, 2, and a third post labeled something like "out", or "common" (common does not mean negative here, it means the post that the power goes to anytime the switch is in any of the on positions). Just to make sure, you're putting the black multimeter lead somewhere on the negative buss bar, not on the common on your main switch? Then reading the voltages on the main switch with the other lead? And the red multimeter lead on 1 reads 13, 2 reads 13, and the third post reads 13? Well if the switch is in the off position, the third post should read 0. If this is true then the voltage is getting through your main switch. Next goto the busbar on your circuit breaker panel with the red lead. If that is 0 with the main switch in one of the on positions, then the wire or its connections at either end are bad or loose. If you don't have busbars, then you will have a place where the wire from your main switch goes to a place where several wires fan out to all of your circuit breaker/switches. Since you have several 12 volt (presumably on separate circuits) devices out, the fault should be before you get to the individual breaker/switches. I'm assuming that your circuit looks something like the one found on the middle of the page on this link. http://fishing- boats.info/ Electrics. htm Sorry if I went too far, I don't know your experience with electricity. John ----- Original Message ---- From: Bob Connell <jollygoodolywa@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:48:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure Well...here I am on the boat getting it ready for the Puget Sound Cal Rendezvous next weekend, on shore power, when out of the blue I realize that I have no power to the potable water pump, the cabin lights, bilge pump, the transducer, etc. etc. There is 120v in the outlets. I crawl into the lazarette and take the panel off the back of the power panel...find 110 power to my battery chargers and 13 volts coming out.....I have 13 volts to the back of the switches on the original panel that say, battery one, both, battery 2, off. The motor starts. Any fuses I could find were okay. One of the wandering dock mates said......"looks like that switch is shot". I reallize this panel has been working since 1979...but I was not working on anything electrical so I am surprised that it would give out like that. I also understand that trying to diagnose an electical problem with the limited info we have is impossible.. ...but maybe some of you have experienced similar failures and have an idea where I can measure my outputs to aid in the diagnosis. No lights is no fun.......to say nothing of the handiness of a bilge pump......thanks all.... Bob Connell Oly Wa.

"...strange and wonderful ways." Wonderful can translate to "full of wonder", that could translate to "full of awe", that might translate back to "awful". Just a Thought Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Courter Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:09 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure - culprit identified perhaps I've seen boats wired in many strange and wonderful ways. I didn't talk about a ground wire off for a couple of reasons, one it was already mentioned, two I assumed that since you didn't say that all your 12 volt circuits were dead, a bad ground was less likely. Typically there will be one wire that ties your grounds back to the battery, if you have more than one wire or multiple bus bars, each handling a set of circuits, you can have a set of circuits fail rather than everything. Though not preferred, a small wire can work without causing problems if it is short. ABYC doesn't want anything less than 16 gage on a boat. 10 gage wire is 1 ohm per 1000 feet, and the resistance doubles or halves for every 3 gage sizes, so 22 gage wire is 16 ohms per 1000 feet, one foot will be 0.016 ohms. If that is handling 10 amps of current, that's 0.16 volts drop for that one section. If the rest of your wiring is excellent, then that 1.6% drop is not too bad, not real good though. The other concern is ampacity, or how much heat you generate in the wire and it depends on the insulation rating of the wire. I'd have to get out another book, but I would guess that 22 gage wire is not rated for 10 amps for ampacity. Here's a recommended voltage drop, resistance and ampacity table. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/CircuitProtect.htm John From: Bob Connell <jo… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 7:58:04 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure - culprit identified perhaps John: thanks for the test description. ..when I am back down on the boat I will use your diagnostics, however after I returned home.... Ron Eddleman's comment about grounding got me thinking. There was an unattached black ground wire (20-22 gauge) attached on the back of the panel at one end and unattached on the other. Due to the size I assumed that it was residual from some other historic component installation but it's possible that while I was pumping out oil during an oil change I pulled it loose from the engine somewhere. Even though it was a pretty light gauge wire, perhaps it was the critical ground for some of the breakers.... ....The timing with the oil change certainly makes that suspect..... .. Thanks for the help.....Bob John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> wrote: That is diagram 2 on the linked web page, not the auto combiner circuit above diagram 2. John ----- Original Message ---- From: John Courter <cal40john@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <http://ps.com/> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:26:57 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure If the motor gets its power through your main 1/2/both switch, then that switch is not bad. The main battery switch has on the back 1, 2, and a third post labeled something like "out", or "common" (common does not mean negative here, it means the post that the power goes to anytime the switch is in any of the on positions). Just to make sure, you're putting the black multimeter lead somewhere on the negative buss bar, not on the common on your main switch? Then reading the voltages on the main switch with the other lead? And the red multimeter lead on 1 reads 13, 2 reads 13, and the third post reads 13? Well if the switch is in the off position, the third post should read 0. If this is true then the voltage is getting through your main switch. Next goto the busbar on your circuit breaker panel with the red lead. If that is 0 with the main switch in one of the on positions, then the wire or its connections at either end are bad or loose. If you don't have busbars, then you will have a place where the wire from your main switch goes to a place where several wires fan out to all of your circuit breaker/switches. Since you have several 12 volt (presumably on separate circuits) devices out, the fault should be before you get to the individual breaker/switches. I'm assuming that your circuit looks something like the one found on the middle of the page on this link. http://fishing- boats.info/ Electrics. htm <http://fishing-boats.info/Electrics.htm> Sorry if I went too far, I don't know your experience with electricity. John ----- Original Message ---- From: Bob Connell <jollygoodolywa@ yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com/> > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <http://ps.com/> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:48:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] 12 volt power failure Well...here I am on the boat getting it ready for the Puget Sound Cal Rendezvous next weekend, on shore power, when out of the blue I realize that I have no power to the potable water pump, the cabin lights, bilge pump, the transducer, etc. etc. There is 120v in the outlets. I crawl into the lazarette and take the panel off the back of the power panel...find 110 power to my battery chargers and 13 volts coming out.....I have 13 volts to the back of the switches on the original panel that say, battery one, both, battery 2, off. The motor starts. Any fuses I could find were okay. One of the wandering dock mates said......"looks like that switch is shot". I reallize this panel has been working since 1979...but I was not working on anything electrical so I am surprised that it would give out like that. I also understand that trying to diagnose an electical problem with the limited info we have is impossible.. ...but maybe some of you have experienced similar failures and have an idea where I can measure my outputs to aid in the diagnosis. No lights is no fun.......to say nothing of the handiness of a bilge pump......thanks all.... Bob Connell Oly Wa.

Bob Connell wrote: > if it is in fact the culprit then I am going to definitely replace it > with 16 gauge.......in this case Size does Matter. Thanks for all the > info......Bob Jeez, 16 ga. is still pretty skinny stuff for 12 volt circuits. 16 ga. might be OK for lamp cord at home, where it's 120 volts and currents are much lower. Remember that watts = volts X amps. As voltage decreases, current increases for a given wattage. High currents like big conductors to avoid turning into electric heaters or fuses. As long as you're replacing a wire, use a nice big one to avoid voltage drop. If you found that all the 12 circuits were out, that means you've got a lot of lights and other devices depending on that one wire, and 16 ga. is not enough. It might be enough for one light but not for several of them. You can actually calculate the total current that will be using that wire, and it would be a useful exercise to at least do a rough estimate. Then you can find the appropriate wire gauge. Just remember that we always end up adding more stuff, so you're better off oversized than undersized unless these boats is one of those racers where they save weight by cutting off the toothbrush handles. Chris Campbell > > *//*

Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > "...strange and wonderful ways." Wonderful can translate to "full of > wonder", that could translate to "full of awe", that might translate > back to "awful". The last word seems the most apt description of almost anything electrical done by a previous owner. Chris Campbell >

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Bob Connell wrote: > > if it is in fact the culprit then I am going to definitely replace it > > with 16 gauge.......in this case Size does Matter. Thanks for all the > > info......Bob > > > > > Jeez, 16 ga. is still pretty skinny stuff for 12 volt circuits. I agree. All the ground wires on Conquest are 8 gauge unless the run is short and then it is 10 or 12. For lights and other small stuff, I have negative buss bars connected by 8 gauge to the bigger buss bars by the panel. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96