Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors

Chris, you're totally rad! Speaking of downhauls, our Cal20 is rigged somewhat stupidly, with no downhaul at all. We've been trying to figure out ways of improving our rig, and a downhaul seems like one of those things that would really help us be faster and look better doing it - but looking at other Cals out and about, I've noticed they're either bereft of downhauls like us, or rigged completely differently, making me even more curious - but I never get a close look at those because they sail away [and are also weird "fancy" cal 20 sailors who don't apparently want to talk to us ... perhaps I need better deoderant or something, but I digress. I assume I'm just missing some relatively basic sailing knowledge, as opposed to hardware, since all the old unmodified Cal20s look the same, pretty much. From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 5:58:26 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: Also, there is this personal radical theory I have. When the wind picks up, I work to to drive to the heel of the boat rather than to the telltales. This involves punching up in puffs and ignoring the telltales. What you're saying is that you head up in puffs with the windward sail telltales lifting (basically, with the sail luffing or almost luffing)? Trying to drive the telltales in heavy air with a bigger sail will leave you on your ear going sideways. My other boat, a 26' keel-centerboarder from 1961 with quite shallow draft and hard bilges for form stability, does just this when overpowered- -on her ear, rounding up. So I've always sailed by heel angle (watch for when the guests get a panicky look, or the skipper, me, gets nervous). Didn't realize I was a radical sailor...cool! Actually, on the subject of sail shape, that boat in particular benefits from sail shape improvements. I was out the other day when I feared spending too much time with rail awash so I cranked way out on the outhaul, a wonderful bronze threaded device, and pulled down hard on the downhaul, and she was a perfect lady. This summer I have been more attentive to the outhaul and downhaul on my Cal 20, too. The net affect is driving a saw tooth course in the puffs and lulls. You will end up doing much better in windward angle than those on their ear. Actually, following the puffs and lulls is what we call "sailing" as opposed to "sailboat riding." I recall a friend once saying "maybe Chris will take us for a sailboat ride." I had to explain that no, one does not go "sailboat riding," one goes sailing, a much different concept. Chris Campbell Ok, now start shooting back. : - ] Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 6:02 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Headsail size First, thanks to everyone for their replies, all of the input is appreciated. The conditions in Lake Erie are similar to what is described for Lake Oneida up to the point where the #3 is warranted then they can get real interesting, the remnants of hurricane Ike came through a week ago and besides some interesting waves we had a storm surge of about 6 feet that caused some damage in the marina I am in and caused significant damage to the floating docks in another marina. We sail my boat with a crew of 7 which is just about the maximum weight that PHRF allows. In light airs this summer we are able to beat all competition including some of the slower 40 foot boats -- scratch. In on memorable race with light air, of the sixty plus boats that started our corrected time was beaten by two boats, a Farr 40 (we beat the other one) and a TMI 27. This seems strange with over 1500 pounds of crew aboard, but we have found that lots of crew correctly positioned is an advantage in all winds. Our experience with reducing sail area is similar to yours, we drop down from a 155% AP genoa at 13 - 14 kts and then to a 110 at about 18 kts. We have found that when we carry too much sail several things happen, we heel beyond 15-20 degrees and we go sideways, helm increase unless we depower the main significantly or rag the main in every puff. On top of this when you pull crew off the rail in these overpowered conditions in order to tack it can get real ugly. Besides this the crew is old. The discussion hasn't finalized my decision yet but I am leaning towards the 140% end of the range, possibly compromising at a 135. About your slow spinnaker sets, I made a major improvement last season by installing a lewmar clutch on the side of my mast at about head level for the spinn halyard. This arrangement allows the foredeck crew to hoist the chute without danger of being lifted off the deck while freeing the rest of the crew to worry about trimming the main and genoa and/or getting the sheets and guy ready for the chute. The drop works even better with one less person in the cockpit and someone controlling the halyard who is not covered by an acre of cloth. For Reggie -- there are four Cal 27's but the 227 is different from all of the others with a glass covered lead keel and 6800 lbs of displacement. The 27-3 was an adaptation of the 25-2 where 10" was added to the cockpit. The t/2 was adapted from the original 27 with a different cabin top and rig. It always seem that you could jump rope under the boom. Thanks again for the info, John Boyce CAL 227 #650 of 656? From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Bob Ellison Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 8:14 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail size John, We sail/race our 227 on Oneida Lake in central New York. I've never sailed on Lake Erie, but we get close steep waves when the wind is up as we sail on the east end of the fairly shallow lake with a predominately west wind. Our inventory consists of a 155% laminate that came off Magic, we'll call that the light #1. I don't think it was built as a predominately light air sail, but given it's condition it is now a light air sail. A 153% Dacron (built to the old PHRF-LO rules), we'll call that the heavy #1. It is about 5 years old, not completely blown out but not as crispy as when we bought the boat. A 130% Dacron that is fairly old and fairly blown out, we'll call that the #2. A 110% Dacron that is in pretty decent shape. We'll call that the #3. I read a couple of the other posts and we go to a smaller headsail a lot quicker. Given the fact that the Mylar film is flaking off the light #1, we only use that up to about 8 or 9 kts true. We've been switching from the heavy 1 to the 2 at around 12 to 13 kts. We do this for a couple of reasons. We typically sail somewhat short legs when we race, so being able to get the headsail around and trimmed quickly in a tack is critical so we don't lose speed. We also typically race with a crew of 4 (sometimes 3) so we don't have a lot of weight for the rail. I also prefer to drive from the low side of the boat so we have even less weight for the rail. At about 18 kts true we go to the #3 and I will move my weight to the high side since I can see below the sail. This works through the upper 20's, which tends to be the limit of what we'll go out in. It's rare for the wind to be above the low 20's. Doing this, our boatspeed seems to be good, and I think we do better in moderate to heavier air. If we had more weight for the rail to help keep the boat upright, I may raise the windspeed that we change sails. Our biggest issue is the fact that we don't have a consistent fourth or fifth crew member. Because of this, our spinnaker sets are slow and we need to take it down early. We also seem to be on the wrong side of the course for just about every wind shift this summer. Our next sail will be a light #1, but with this summers spinnaker purchase, I don't know when that will be. One difference, which may be the reason we can go to a smaller headsail the way we do, is that the waves we sail in only get up to 4 to 5 feet. There is no swell here, they just get steeper as they get bigger and more than that is no fun to sail in. I have been curious where other 227 sailors change headsails. From what I've gathered reading posts I go smaller quicker. I have carried my 153 to 20kts, it was not fast. Bob Ellison Cal 2-27 Après Ski From: John Boyce To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 6:07 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Headsail size A couple of months ago I asked the group for suggestions on how to get a CAL 227 to go faster in heavy air and I received a number of responses, most of which we had already tried. As a racing team we looked at what we were doing and we seemed to be doing things as well as everyone else, but we were slow. In fact one heavy air week when I was out of town the crew raced the boat without me and, fortunately, had the worst finish of the year ( a fact that I will never let them forget! ) With this background I have decided to reach into what my crew believes to be a bottom less wallet and buy a new #2. My local sailmaker is recommending a 140% Dacron crosscut to complement my #1 155% Pentex Triradial. My present #2 is a 130% Dacron crosscut which honestly is blown out -- great shape if we were going backward. The question is, Is this the right sail for sailing in the short steep waves of Lake Erie? Comments would be appreciated. BTW we finished second for the year, we won in light air and got our but handed to us in heavy. John Boyce CAL 227 Gotcha Again No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.7.1/1686 - Release Date: 9/23/2008 7:38 AM

Lord Nougat wrote: > Chris, you're totally rad! > > Speaking of downhauls, our Cal20 is rigged somewhat stupidly, with no > downhaul at all. Mine has a movable boom gooseneck that slides up and down the luff groove in the mast. Under it, a small cleat is secured in the groove. I yank downward on the downhaul line and secure it on the cleat. Modern boats using fixed boom attachments (for rigid vang purposes?) don't have downhauls. I like them. Modern boats use Cunningham lines in the sail at the luff. Chris

Oh, that's why that's there, thanks! I'll go hunt one of those down this week. Sorry to hear about your mooring, and the season ending. From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:30:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Lord Nougat wrote: Chris, you're totally rad! Speaking of downhauls, our Cal20 is rigged somewhat stupidly, with no downhaul at all. Mine has a movable boom gooseneck that slides up and down the luff groove in the mast. Under it, a small cleat is secured in the groove. I yank downward on the downhaul line and secure it on the cleat. Modern boats using fixed boom attachments (for rigid vang purposes?) don't have downhauls. I like them. Modern boats use Cunningham lines in the sail at the luff. Chris

My old Cal 20 had the original goose neck and roller reefing, both on different occasions gave me a scare. The mast luff groove became weakend by the boom and the gooseneck pulled out of the groove. What was really scary was sailing outside the Los Angeles light in heavy afternoon chop with a rolled in reef and the ratchet mechanizm failed allowing the main to suddenly unroll open. Had to take the main down. After that, I fabricated a fixed gooseneck and was never unhappy with the change. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lord Nougat To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Oh, that's why that's there, thanks! I'll go hunt one of those down this week. Sorry to hear about your mooring, and the season ending. ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:30:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Lord Nougat wrote: Chris, you're totally rad! Speaking of downhauls, our Cal20 is rigged somewhat stupidly, with no downhaul at all. Mine has a movable boom gooseneck that slides up and down the luff groove in the mast. Under it, a small cleat is secured in the groove. I yank downward on the downhaul line and secure it on the cleat. Modern boats using fixed boom attachments (for rigid vang purposes?) don't have downhauls. I like them. Modern boats use Cunningham lines in the sail at the luff. Chris __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3466 (20080923) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

I talked to some racers who had one of those on their Cal20, it looked really nice. They said it was made by Jib Kelly of Kelly Marine, but I have not had a chance to talk to him about that - or at all, since then; not that I could afford it anyway, most likely. Also, being that it's all I'm really familiar with [the cal 20 is the largest boat I've ever sailed] I've grown to like the roller reefing, as I can reef the main when it gets to be too much solo. Worryingly, the mast groove where the gooseneck rides is visibly wider than the rest of the groove at the point where it has the most stress. Some day it will probably persuade me to get that fixed gooseneck boom setup. From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:02:10 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors My old Cal 20 had the original goose neck and roller reefing, both on different occasions gave me a scare. The mast luff groove became weakend by the boom and the gooseneck pulled out of the groove. What was really scary was sailing outside the Los Angeles light in heavy afternoon chop with a rolled in reef and the ratchet mechanizm failed allowing the main to suddenly unroll open. Had to take the main down. After that, I fabricated a fixed gooseneck and was never unhappy with the change. From: Lord Nougat To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Oh, that's why that's there, thanks! I'll go hunt one of those down this week. Sorry to hear about your mooring, and the season ending. From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:30:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Lord Nougat wrote: Chris, you're totally rad! Speaking of downhauls, our Cal20 is rigged somewhat stupidly, with no downhaul at all. Mine has a movable boom gooseneck that slides up and down the luff groove in the mast. Under it, a small cleat is secured in the groove. I yank downward on the downhaul line and secure it on the cleat. Modern boats using fixed boom attachments (for rigid vang purposes?) don't have downhauls. I like them. Modern boats use Cunningham lines in the sail at the luff. Chris __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3466 (20080923) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset. com

It was really easy to fabricate in my garage out of ss the shape of the mast luff, as I recall, I had a piece welded on to the bracket to accommodate the boom and I used sheetmetal screws to fasten to the mast. I never had any issues with it after 12 years of service. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Lord Nougat To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors I talked to some racers who had one of those on their Cal20, it looked really nice. They said it was made by Jib Kelly of Kelly Marine, but I have not had a chance to talk to him about that - or at all, since then; not that I could afford it anyway, most likely. Also, being that it's all I'm really familiar with [the cal 20 is the largest boat I've ever sailed] I've grown to like the roller reefing, as I can reef the main when it gets to be too much solo. Worryingly, the mast groove where the gooseneck rides is visibly wider than the rest of the groove at the point where it has the most stress. Some day it will probably persuade me to get that fixed gooseneck boom setup. ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:02:10 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors My old Cal 20 had the original goose neck and roller reefing, both on different occasions gave me a scare. The mast luff groove became weakend by the boom and the gooseneck pulled out of the groove. What was really scary was sailing outside the Los Angeles light in heavy afternoon chop with a rolled in reef and the ratchet mechanizm failed allowing the main to suddenly unroll open. Had to take the main down. After that, I fabricated a fixed gooseneck and was never unhappy with the change. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lord Nougat To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Oh, that's why that's there, thanks! I'll go hunt one of those down this week. Sorry to hear about your mooring, and the season ending. ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:30:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Headsail Size - Other Factors Lord Nougat wrote: Chris, you're totally rad! Speaking of downhauls, our Cal20 is rigged somewhat stupidly, with no downhaul at all. Mine has a movable boom gooseneck that slides up and down the luff groove in the mast. Under it, a small cleat is secured in the groove. I yank downward on the downhaul line and secure it on the cleat. Modern boats using fixed boom attachments (for rigid vang purposes?) don't have downhauls. I like them. Modern boats use Cunningham lines in the sail at the luff. Chris __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3466 (20080923) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset. com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3466 (20080923) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: > > My old Cal 20 had the original goose neck and roller reefing, both on > different occasions gave me a scare. The mast luff groove became > weakend by the boom and the gooseneck pulled out of the groove. What > was really scary was sailing outside the Los Angeles light in heavy > afternoon chop with a rolled in reef and the ratchet mechanizm failed > allowing the main to suddenly unroll open. Had to take the main down. > After that, I fabricated a fixed gooseneck and was never unhappy with > the change. I don't use roller reefing, which was one of those ideas that looked good only if you didn't realize that window shades and sails have very different shapes. My old roller reefing gooseneck is still in use, but never gets rolled. I do like having a downhaul, however, so I continue to use the fitting that slides in the luff groove of the mast. It does get stressed a bit when the vang is in use, as it pulls the boom forward and the slider tends to rotate sideways in the groove. Chris Campbell > > - >

Lord Nougat wrote: > I talked to some racers who had one of those on their Cal20, it looked > really nice. They said it was made by Jib Kelly of Kelly Marine, but I > have not had a chance to talk to him about that - or at all, since > then; not that I could afford it anyway, most likely. Also, being that > it's all I'm really familiar with [the cal 20 is the largest boat I've > ever sailed] I've grown to like the roller reefing, as I can reef the > main when it gets to be too much solo. I HATE roller reefing because it produces a really lousy, baggy sail shape, which makes sailing less efficient in heavy weather. My boat has a jiffy-reefing system, and I can do it all standing in the companionway. Drop halyard, hook the reefing tack point, hoist halyard, yank in the reefing line to pull the clew out & down, and you're sailing. You can tie the reef points then or ignore them and worry about it later (they are only for holding the loose sail fabric anyway). My other boat has roller reefing. I can get a decent sail shape IF I work at it and IF I do it in the slip, either alternating between rolling up and bit and running aft to pull the leech aft, or having a crew member back there to pull aft on the leech as I roll from the gooseneck. It's a big pain, and very hard to do well while sailing. Chris Campbell >