Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie)

David, I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we continue to own this planet. David Dobbs

David, Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I never get my dander up enough to modify my system. The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then I have to throw away an aging but working-quite-well wheel-pilot and order a new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada yada. If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. Wilkie PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > David, > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > David Dobbs >

I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it to be hard over? Thanks, Scott 74 Cal29 I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, DavidOwen <wilkie@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. > > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of > research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite-well wheel-pilot and order a > new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that > would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada > yada. > > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. > > Wilkie > > PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P > > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@...> wrote: > > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is > > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > > > David Dobbs > > >

Scott, The tiller is indeed very responsive, but you must admit that it really sweeps the cockpit and can hamper crew scampering. The factory wheel is ridiculously small (I think about 19²) from the factory, but it has to be in order to clear the lazarette covers and allows easier passing of crew fore and aft. Many 29 owners upgrade to a large wheel and I think a 26² wheel fits without mod. I bought a 28² wheel cheap and the lazarette lids hung on it when trying to open them. I could force them open as the wheel turned, but later I put a 1² riser under the pedestal and problem solved. I really like the larger wheel. It allows you to steer from the high side when healing upwind. I think the wheel turns about 3 1/2 turns from lock to lock and there is very little effort with either wheel since it¹s not a huge rudder. Tacking does not require any serious effort or excessive wheel-turning. Wilkie On 1/14/09 10:25 AM, "Scott" <sc… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel > seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a > boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it > to be hard over? > Thanks, Scott > 74 Cal29 > I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> , DavidOwen > <wilkie@...> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > David, >> > >> > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as > well. The >> > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat > that had >> > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. > I >> > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, > but I >> > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. >> > >> > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my > really nice >> > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to > a >> > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- > and >> > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a > lot of >> > research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on > that. Then >> > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite-well wheel-pilot > and order a >> > new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle > compass that >> > would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead > compasses yada >> > yada. >> > >> > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and > spout all >> > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. >> > >> > Wilkie >> > >> > PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into > foreclosure? :P >> > >> > >> > >> > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@...> wrote: >> > >>> > > >>> > > David, >>> > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I > decided I >>> > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would > fulfill my sailing >>> > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > price, so the deal >>> > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have > come to be one >>> > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with > the wheel. >>> > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we > adjust; which is >>> > > probably why we continue to own this planet. >>> > > >>> > > David Dobbs >>> > > >> > > > >

Wilkie is correct, the tiller is in the way, especially if the helmsman is old and can not get around easily. The crew is has to move so the helmsman can get around the tiller. It is a big problem on the boat I race on. I have always been a tillerman but a deal on a 2-29 came up and I bought her. I am happy to have the extra room at the helm, literally protected from falling crew members by the pedestal. No issues during tacks. With a wheel, I can still get that majical sensation of keeping the boat in the groove and for me, that's what its all about! Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: DavidOwen To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) Scott, The tiller is indeed very responsive, but you must admit that it really sweeps the cockpit and can hamper crew scampering. The factory wheel is ridiculously small (I think about 19") from the factory, but it has to be in order to clear the lazarette covers and allows easier passing of crew fore and aft. Many 29 owners upgrade to a large wheel and I think a 26" wheel fits without mod. I bought a 28" wheel cheap and the lazarette lids hung on it when trying to open them. I could force them open as the wheel turned, but later I put a 1" riser under the pedestal and problem solved. I really like the larger wheel. It allows you to steer from the high side when healing upwind. I think the wheel turns about 3 1/2 turns from lock to lock and there is very little effort with either wheel since it's not a huge rudder. Tacking does not require any serious effort or excessive wheel-turning. Wilkie On 1/14/09 10:25 AM, "Scott" <sc… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it to be hard over? Thanks, Scott 74 Cal29 I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> , DavidOwen <wilkie@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. > > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of > research, it seems to me that I'd probably drop another $1000 on that. Then > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite-well wheel-pilot and order a > new tiller-pilot. Then I'd have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that > would get tossed aside too and I'd want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada > yada. > > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. > > Wilkie > > PS - Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P > > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@...> wrote: > > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is > > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > > > David Dobbs > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3766 (20090114) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Since you put it that way and the description of the upgraded size wheel I see your point. I can't see replaceing my tiller but I will sure consider that for my next Cal??. Thanks for the info. Scott 74 Cal29--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote: > > Wilkie is correct, the tiller is in the way, especially if the helmsman is old and can not get around easily. The crew is has to move so the helmsman can get around the tiller. It is a big problem on the boat I race on. I have always been a tillerman but a deal on a 2-29 came up and I bought her. I am happy to have the extra room at the helm, literally protected from falling crew members by the pedestal. No issues during tacks. With a wheel, I can still get that majical sensation of keeping the boat in the groove and for me, that's what its all about! > Mark > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DavidOwen > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:11 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) > > > > > Scott, > > The tiller is indeed very responsive, but you must admit that it really sweeps the cockpit and can hamper crew scampering. > > The factory wheel is ridiculously small (I think about 19") from the factory, but it has to be in order to clear the lazarette covers and allows easier passing of crew fore and aft. Many 29 owners upgrade to a large wheel and I think a 26" wheel fits without mod. I bought a 28" wheel cheap and the lazarette lids hung on it when trying to open them. I could force them open as the wheel turned, but later I put a 1" riser under the pedestal and problem solved. I really like the larger wheel. It allows you to steer from the high side when healing upwind. > > I think the wheel turns about 3 1/2 turns from lock to lock and there is very little effort with either wheel since it's not a huge rudder. Tacking does not require any serious effort or excessive wheel-turning. > > Wilkie > > > On 1/14/09 10:25 AM, "Scott" <scottcyphers@...> wrote: > > > > > > > I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel > seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a > boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it > to be hard over? > Thanks, Scott > 74 Cal29 > I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats% 40yahoogroups.com> , DavidOwen <wilkie@> wrote: > > > > > > > > David, > > > > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as > well. The > > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat > that had > > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. > I > > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, > but I > > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. > > > > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my > really nice > > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to > a > > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- > and > > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a > lot of > > research, it seems to me that I'd probably drop another $1000 on > that. Then > > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite-well wheel- pilot > and order a > > new tiller-pilot. Then I'd have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle > compass that > > would get tossed aside too and I'd want a pair of bulkhead > compasses yada > > yada. > > > > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and > spout all > > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. > > > > Wilkie > > > > PS - Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into > foreclosure? :P > > > > > > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@> wrote: > > > > > > > > David, > > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I > decided I > > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would > fulfill my sailing > > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > price, so the deal > > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have > come to be one > > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with > the wheel. > > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we > adjust; which is > > > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > > > > > David Dobbs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3766 (20090114) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com >

david dobbs wrote: > > David, > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided > I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill > my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You > know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me > and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of > driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we > continue to own this planet. > The big advantage of a wheel, for us tiller guys, is that it allows us to post snarky comments about the wheel guys. I can reassure myself that I am a true sailor and not one of those wimpy characters who needs ego reinforcement by pretending he's at the wheel of a square-rigger or America's Cup boat. When the occasion demands it, which is to say, when somebody with a big wheel boat invites the little tiller sailor to go sailing, I have found that it's pretty easy to catch on. Of course, the wheel-boat guys usually have servants to bring up libations and comestibles from the galley, so you follow the learning curve in comfort. Chris Campbell

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > david dobbs wrote: > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided > > I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill > > my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > > price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You > > know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me > > and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of > > driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we > > continue to own this planet. > > > > > > > > > > > > The big advantage of a wheel, for us tiller guys, is that it allows us > to post snarky comments about the wheel guys. I can reassure myself > that I am a true sailor and not one of those wimpy characters who needs > ego reinforcement by pretending he's at the wheel of a square-rigger or > America's Cup boat. > > When the occasion demands it, which is to say, when somebody with a big > wheel boat invites the little tiller sailor to go sailing, I have found > that it's pretty easy to catch on. Of course, the wheel-boat guys > usually have servants to bring up libations and comestibles from the > galley, so you follow the learning curve in comfort. > > Chris Campbell I used to crew for a guy on a Carter 39 which had twin wheels. It was an IOR boat so was a handful down wind in a breeze. I wound up doing most of the heavy air helming and it was fine but a tiller is better in those circumstances. In my Choate 40, the helmsman had his own cockpit aft so the tiller did not get in anyone's way. He and it were aft of the traveller. The benefit of the tiller on the Cal 40 is the fact that, once you are at anchor or in the slip, it raises up out of the way. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 >

Mike is right about the tiller when at anchor is ----- Original Message ----- From: mtkennedy1 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > david dobbs wrote: > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided > > I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill > > my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > > price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You > > know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me > > and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of > > driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we > > continue to own this planet. > > > > > > > > > > > > The big advantage of a wheel, for us tiller guys, is that it allows us > to post snarky comments about the wheel guys. I can reassure myself > that I am a true sailor and not one of those wimpy characters who needs > ego reinforcement by pretending he's at the wheel of a square-rigger or > America's Cup boat. > > When the occasion demands it, which is to say, when somebody with a big > wheel boat invites the little tiller sailor to go sailing, I have found > that it's pretty easy to catch on. Of course, the wheel-boat guys > usually have servants to bring up libations and comestibles from the > galley, so you follow the learning curve in comfort. > > Chris Campbell I used to crew for a guy on a Carter 39 which had twin wheels. It was an IOR boat so was a handful down wind in a breeze. I wound up doing most of the heavy air helming and it was fine but a tiller is better in those circumstances. In my Choate 40, the helmsman had his own cockpit aft so the tiller did not get in anyone's way. He and it were aft of the traveller. The benefit of the tiller on the Cal 40 is the fact that, once you are at anchor or in the slip, it raises up out of the way. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3769 (20090115) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

In the beginning (1996), when we purchased the Cal 40 #94 California Girl (ex Victoria, Ex Wind Wrath, Ex BeBeTo) She had a wheel. (and snow) In was an interesting unit, mounted on top of the tiller head, (instead of the wooden tiller handle) via a quadrant gear and cables. A "bridge support" suspended it over the cockpit sole, and the driver was well aft of all crew activities. We did our first race with the set-up and it was fine. I removed the wheel unit, and replaced with a tiller, as I just preferred a tiller and wanted to be more forward for weight and vision reasons. [cid:802142120@15012009-2B74] [cid:802142120@15012009-2B66] [cid:802142120@15012009-2B6D] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:17 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) Mike is right about the tiller when at anchor is From: mtkennedy1<mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > david dobbs wrote: > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided > > I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill > > my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > > price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You > > know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me > > and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of > > driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we > > continue to own this planet. > > > > > > > > > > > > The big advantage of a wheel, for us tiller guys, is that it allows us > to post snarky comments about the wheel guys. I can reassure myself > that I am a true sailor and not one of those wimpy characters who needs > ego reinforcement by pretending he's at the wheel of a square-rigger or > America's Cup boat. > > When the occasion demands it, which is to say, when somebody with a big > wheel boat invites the little tiller sailor to go sailing, I have found > that it's pretty easy to catch on. Of course, the wheel-boat guys > usually have servants to bring up libations and comestibles from the > galley, so you follow the learning curve in comfort. > > Chris Campbell I used to crew for a guy on a Carter 39 which had twin wheels. It was an IOR boat so was a handful down wind in a breeze. I wound up doing most of the heavy air helming and it was fine but a tiller is better in those circumstances. In my Choate 40, the helmsman had his own cockpit aft so the tiller did not get in anyone's way. He and it were aft of the traveller. The benefit of the tiller on the Cal 40 is the fact that, once you are at anchor or in the slip, it raises up out of the way. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3769 (20090115) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > In the beginning (1996), when we purchased the Cal 40 #94 California > Girl (ex Victoria, Ex Wind Wrath, Ex BeBeTo) She had a wheel. (and snow) > > In was an interesting unit, mounted on top of the tiller head, > (instead of the wooden tiller handle) via a quadrant gear and cables. > A "bridge support" suspended it over the cockpit sole, and the driver > was well aft of all crew activities. > > We did our first race with the set-up and it was fine. I removed the > wheel unit, and replaced with a tiller, as I just preferred a tiller > and wanted to be more forward for weight and vision reasons. Looks like you're going like hell in the last pic. Whee! Chris Campbell > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) > *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:17 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) > > Mike is right about the tiller when at anchor is > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* mtkennedy1 <mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:58 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, Chris Campbell > <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > > > david dobbs wrote: > > > > > > David, > > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I > decided > > > I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would > fulfill > > > my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. > Right > > > price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You > > > know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails > with me > > > and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of > > > driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we > > > continue to own this planet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The big advantage of a wheel, for us tiller guys, is that it > allows us > > to post snarky comments about the wheel guys. I can reassure myself > > that I am a true sailor and not one of those wimpy characters > who needs > > ego reinforcement by pretending he's at the wheel of a > square-rigger or > > America's Cup boat. > > > > When the occasion demands it, which is to say, when somebody > with a big > > wheel boat invites the little tiller sailor to go sailing, I > have found > > that it's pretty easy to catch on. Of course, the wheel-boat guys > > usually have servants to bring up libations and comestibles from > the > > galley, so you follow the learning curve in comfort. > > > > Chris Campbell > > I used to crew for a guy on a Carter 39 which had twin wheels. It was > an IOR boat so was a handful down wind in a breeze. I wound up doing > most of the heavy air helming and it was fine but a tiller is better > in those circumstances. In my Choate 40, the helmsman had his own > cockpit aft so the tiller did not get in anyone's way. He and it were > aft of the traveller. The benefit of the tiller on the Cal 40 is the > fact that, once you are at anchor or in the slip, it raises up out of > the way. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3769 (20090115) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1895 - Release Date: 1/15/2009 7:46 AM >

The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, passing a Yankee (30?). [cid:832562321@15012009-2B7B] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: In the beginning (1996), when we purchased the Cal 40 #94 California Girl (ex Victoria, Ex Wind Wrath, Ex BeBeTo) She had a wheel. (and snow) In was an interesting unit, mounted on top of the tiller head, (instead of the wooden tiller handle) via a quadrant gear and cables. A "bridge support" suspended it over the cockpit sole, and the driver was well aft of all crew activities. We did our first race with the set-up and it was fine. I removed the wheel unit, and replaced with a tiller, as I just preferred a tiller and wanted to be more forward for weight and vision reasons. Looks like you're going like hell in the last pic. Whee! Chris Campbell [cid:832562321@15012009-2B82] [cid:832562321@15012009-2B89] [cid:832562321@15012009-2B90] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:17 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) Mike is right about the tiller when at anchor is From: mtkennedy1<mailto:mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > david dobbs wrote: > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided > > I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill > > my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right > > price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You > > know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me > > and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of > > driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we > > continue to own this planet. > > > > > > > > > > > > The big advantage of a wheel, for us tiller guys, is that it allows us > to post snarky comments about the wheel guys. I can reassure myself > that I am a true sailor and not one of those wimpy characters who needs > ego reinforcement by pretending he's at the wheel of a square-rigger or > America's Cup boat. > > When the occasion demands it, which is to say, when somebody with a big > wheel boat invites the little tiller sailor to go sailing, I have found > that it's pretty easy to catch on. Of course, the wheel-boat guys > usually have servants to bring up libations and comestibles from the > galley, so you follow the learning curve in comfort. > > Chris Campbell I used to crew for a guy on a Carter 39 which had twin wheels. It was an IOR boat so was a handful down wind in a breeze. I wound up doing most of the heavy air helming and it was fine but a tiller is better in those circumstances. In my Choate 40, the helmsman had his own cockpit aft so the tiller did not get in anyone's way. He and it were aft of the traveller. The benefit of the tiller on the Cal 40 is the fact that, once you are at anchor or in the slip, it raises up out of the way. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3769 (20090115) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1895 - Release Date: 1/15/2009 7:46 AM

ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, > passing a Yankee (30?). The magazine _Sailing_ is wonderful, in part because of the good writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks do in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking about sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. He must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added "e-mailing about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & fantasizing. Chris Campbell > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > **

where was the race that you were doing 14-16 knots? -jonesing for a Cal 40 (I think!) From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:44:08 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, passing a Yankee (30?). The magazine Sailing is wonderful, in part because of the good writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks do in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking about sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. He must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added "e-mailing about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & fantasizing. Chris Campbell

I think I have spoken to him, here is California Girl on his cover (Be Be To) in 1975. He found it in his archives as I was doing research on our boat on it's life in Lake Michigan. Sailing and thinking about sailing is the fuel for pushing forward these days. [cid:930124621@15012009-2B97] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:44 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, passing a Yankee (30?). The magazine Sailing is wonderful, in part because of the good writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks do in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking about sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. He must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added "e-mailing about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & fantasizing. Chris Campbell [cid:930124621@15012009-2B9E]

ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > I think I have spoken to him, here is California Girl on his cover (Be > Be To) in 1975. > > He found it in his archives as I was doing research on our boat on > it's life in Lake Michigan. > > Sailing and thinking about sailing is the fuel for pushing forward > these days. That cover made me nostalgic. I had a bunch of old issues from my father, and when I moved 15 years ago I shed a bunch of stuff. The old Sailing mags went to a local library. As soon as I got moved, I regretted losing those, so I had a friend go to the library and beg for them back. They gave me the box of the newer issues but not the cool old ones. Some lucky sailor must have snapped 'em up at a sale. The magazine is a bit slicker now, and in color, but they had more photos in the old days. In 1984 they had a "classics of fiberglass" article in which a panel including Bill Lapworth, Vince Lazzara of Gulfstar & Columbia, Robert Perry, and Charlie Morgan selected the best plastic boats so far. There was a tie for #1: the Cal 40 and Carl Alberg's Triton. The Cal 40 write-up includes a photo of a boat whose name begins with E and includes a lot of letters not visible in my copy. A few years later Robert Perry did another reflection on important plastic boats and the Cal 40 was one that got a full-page writeup. That photo was of #10 (name not visible). Chris Campbell > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *Chris Campbell > *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:44 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) > > ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: >> The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, >> passing a Yankee (30?). > > > > > The magazine _Sailing_ is wonderful, in part because of the good > writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. > The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks do > in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking about > sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. He > must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added "e-mailing > about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & fantasizing. > > Chris Campbell >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1895 - Release Date: 1/15/2009 7:46 AM >

I have #10, on the old Roster as "MELEE" back in 1999 or so. Boats whose names started with "E" boats were #29-Excalibur and #126-Emily Ann.. but all things can change? I feel better now that my sailing juices are flowing... I keep a fan at my desk, blowing warm air into my face, I believe that if I keep my mind on sailing in warm climates, my body might just follow! Cheers dEmO [cid:450111222@15012009-2BAC] [cid:450111222@15012009-2BB3] [http://home.att.net/~v.lessley/78_125_Cal_Register.jpg] [cid:450111222@15012009-2BBA] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:09 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: I think I have spoken to him, here is California Girl on his cover (Be Be To) in 1975. He found it in his archives as I was doing research on our boat on it's life in Lake Michigan. Sailing and thinking about sailing is the fuel for pushing forward these days. That cover made me nostalgic. I had a bunch of old issues from my father, and when I moved 15 years ago I shed a bunch of stuff. The old Sailing mags went to a local library. As soon as I got moved, I regretted losing those, so I had a friend go to the library and beg for them back. They gave me the box of the newer issues but not the cool old ones. Some lucky sailor must have snapped 'em up at a sale. The magazine is a bit slicker now, and in color, but they had more photos in the old days. In 1984 they had a "classics of fiberglass" article in which a panel including Bill Lapworth, Vince Lazzara of Gulfstar & Columbia, Robert Perry, and Charlie Morgan selected the best plastic boats so far. There was a tie for #1: the Cal 40 and Carl Alberg's Triton. The Cal 40 write-up includes a photo of a boat whose name begins with E and includes a lot of letters not visible in my copy. A few years later Robert Perry did another reflection on important plastic boats and the Cal 40 was one that got a full-page writeup. That photo was of #10 (name not visible). Chris Campbell From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:44 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, passing a Yankee (30?). The magazine Sailing is wonderful, in part because of the good writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks do in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking about sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. He must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added "e-mailing about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & fantasizing. Chris Campbell No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1895 - Release Date: 1/15/2009 7:46 AM

Swiftsure Race, in Juan de Fuca Straits between Washington and Vancouver Island BC. Earlier in the downwind portion of the race we were very far behind, with facing only improvement we deployed our big spinnaker, the Blooper, and a tall boy staysail to catch up, as the wind built, we dropped the Blooper and Staysail. We hit 14 to 16 knots "all the time" in the Pacific Cup and Transpac. Boat record is falling off a huge wave in the Molokai Channel, in 35-40 knots with the 2.2 oz spinnaker up. The record mark is 24.6 knots over the water. You tube has some shots of our last Pacific cup, the winds were lighter than usual, but still it was a fun time. The youtubes have clips of the wife driving, 72 year old mom driving, dEmO driving, and a group singing of Jimmy Buffett's "Barmaid" song. Try this link to see all the videos: http://tinyurl.com/7toz3n Or just go to www.youtube.com<http://www.youtube.com> and search on "pacific cup california girl" From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Taylor Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:49 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) where was the race that you were doing 14-16 knots? -jonesing for a Cal 40 (I think!) From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:44:08 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, passing a Yankee (30?). The magazine Sailing is wonderful, in part because of the good writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks do in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking about sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. He must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added "e-mailing about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & fantasizing. Chris Campbell [cid:058364921@15012009-2BA5]

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, <timmothy.lessley@...> wrote: > > The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, passing a Yankee (30?). > > [cid:832562321@15012009-2B7B] > Yankee 30s are great boats. My first big boat sailing was on one. I knew John Shoemaker, who owned Yankee Yachts and he was a real gentleman. He built his boats like a brick sh**house so they tended to be heavy, especially the 38 (which I had) but they are wonderful boats. The only trouble with the 30 is the engine which is under the forward settee. It was a French tractor engine and its exhaust was dry, going up the mast. There were no small diesels in those days. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, <timmothy.lessley@...> wrote: > > I have #10, on the old Roster as "MELEE" back in 1999 or so. > Melee is just down the dock from me and has been there for years with no mast and no engine. Nice paint job but nothing else. I guess the owner is planning to finish the restoration some time soon. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 $ 96

David, Speaking of rudder I need to give my evaluation of the new rudder I got from Foss. You may recall that when it arrived the guys at the yard said, "you might want to take a look at it". I did and it was quite different, so I called and was told, "try it, you'll like it." I did and I did. Actually it was multiple conversations, etc., but the bottom line is I think it's an improvement. I ordered the new one because I knew my old one was full of water, etc. Last winter it got cold, and when spring came I examined the old rudder and it had enough serious cracks in it that would have precluded my sailing with it. I am happy with my new-redisigned rudder from Foss, but have no long term results to report. Regards, David Dobbs, Cal29 411 --- On Wed, 1/14/09, DavidOwen <wi… [at] mariposasailing.com> wrote: From: DavidOwen <wi… [at] mariposasailing.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:12 PM David, Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I never get my dander up enough to modify my system. The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of research, it seems to me that I’d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then I have to throw away an aging but working-quite- well wheel-pilot and order a new tiller-pilot. Then I’d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that would get tossed aside too and I’d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada yada. If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. Wilkie PS — Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@yahoo. com> wrote: David, I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we continue to own this planet. David Dobbs

Scott, Now that you mention it I don't know how many revolutions of the wheel I have to turn. You just do it. Just like a tiller. It's more a matter of getting to know how your boat is configured. It's just different. Regards, David dobbs --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Scott <sc… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Scott <sc… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:25 PM I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it to be hard over? Thanks, Scott 74 Cal29 I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, DavidOwen <wilkie@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. > > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of > research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite- well wheel-pilot and order a > new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that > would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada > yada. > > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. > > Wilkie > > PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P > > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@... > wrote: > > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is > > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > > > David Dobbs > > >

It seems from the comments there are pluses and minuses for both. Now I'm more confused than ever. I guess I will take whatever the next boat I fall in love with has. I hope it's a Cal40. Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Thu, 1/15/09, david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 7:15 PM Scott, Now that you mention it I don't know how many revolutions of the wheel I have to turn. You just do it. Just like a tiller. It's more a matter of getting to know how your boat is configured. It's just different. Regards, David dobbs --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Scott <scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net> wrote: From: Scott <scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:25 PM I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it to be hard over? Thanks, Scott 74 Cal29 I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, DavidOwen <wilkie@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. > > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of > research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite- well wheel-pilot and order a > new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that > would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada > yada. > > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. > > Wilkie > > PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P > > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@.... > wrote: > > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is > > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > > > David Dobbs > > >

She must be that weird green one! I haven't seen here there in a little while now, maybe she's getting her rig finally! or maybe lacking a mast I have just begun to ignore her. From: mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:36:18 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, <timmothy.lessley@ ...> wrote: > > I have #10, on the old Roster as "MELEE" back in 1999 or so. > Melee is just down the dock from me and has been there for years with no mast and no engine. Nice paint job but nothing else. I guess the owner is planning to finish the restoration some time soon. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 $ 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Lord Nougat <lord_nougat@...> wrote: > > She must be that weird green one! I haven't seen here there in a little while now, maybe she's getting her rig finally! or maybe lacking a mast I have just begun to ignore her. I think I heard he was finishing the refit. His mast has been at Doug Grant's shop for years. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > > > > ________________________________ > From: mtkennedy1 <mtkennedy1@...> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:36:18 PM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) > > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, <timmothy.lessley@ ...> wrote: > > > > I have #10, on the old Roster as "MELEE" back in 1999 or so. > > > > Melee is just down the dock from me and has been there for years with > no mast and no engine. Nice paint job but nothing else. I guess the > owner is planning to finish the restoration some time soon. > > Mike Kennedy > Conquest Cal 40 $ 96 >

"wouldn't it be nice" if we could consistently choose and/or predict that with which we would fall in love? Or, perhaps random attraction is the best way. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comFrom: sc… [at] sbcglobal.netDate: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:17:32 -0800Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) It seems from the comments there are pluses and minuses for both. Now I'm more confused than ever. I guess I will take whatever the next boat I fall in love with has. I hope it's a Cal40. Scott 74 Cal29--- On Thu, 1/15/09, david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott)To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 7:15 PM Scott, Now that you mention it I don't know how many revolutions of the wheel I have to turn. You just do it. Just like a tiller. It's more a matter of getting to know how your boat is configured. It's just different. Regards, David dobbs --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Scott <scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net> wrote: From: Scott <scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie)To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.comDate: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:25 PM I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it to be hard over?Thanks, Scott74 Cal29I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, DavidOwen <wilkie@...> wrote:>> > > David,> > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The> 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had> the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I> complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I> never get my dander up enough to modify my system.> > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice> traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a> machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and> ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of> research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then> I have to throw away an aging but working-quite- well wheel-pilot and order a> new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that> would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada> yada.> > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all> of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it.> > Wilkie> > PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P> > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@.... > wrote:> > > > > David,> > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I> > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing> > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal> > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one> > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel.> > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is> > probably why we continue to own this planet.> > > > David Dobbs> >>

David I hope someone took a picture you could share with us. Randy CAL 2-29 #512 Out Patient Channel Islands Ca david dobbs wrote: > David, > Speaking of rudder I need to give my evaluation of the new rudder I got from Foss. You may recall that when it arrived the guys at the yard said, "you might want to take a look at it". I did and it was quite different, so I called and was told, "try it, you'll like it." I did and I did. Actually it was multiple conversations, etc., but the bottom line is I think it's an improvement. I ordered the new one because I knew my old one was full of water, etc. Last winter it got cold, and when spring came I examined the old rudder and it had enough serious cracks in it that would have precluded my sailing with it. > I am happy with my new-redisigned rudder from Foss, but have no long term results to report. > Regards, > David Dobbs, Cal29 411 > --- On Wed, 1/14/09, DavidOwen <wilkie@mariposasail ing.com> wrote: > From: DavidOwen <wilkie@mariposasail ing.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:12 PM > David, Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I never get my dander up enough to modify my system. The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of research, it seems to me that I’d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then I have to throw away an aging but working-quite- well wheel-pilot and order a new tiller-pilot. Then I’d have > a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that would get tossed aside too and I’d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada yada. If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. Wilkie PS — Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@yahoo. com> wrote: > David, I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is probably why we continue to own this planet. David Dobbs >

ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > I have #10, on the old Roster as "MELEE" back in 1999 or so. > > Boats whose names started with "E" boats were #29-Excalibur and > #126-Emily Ann.. but all things can change? #10 is a West Coast boat, so that fits the notion that the magazine used a publicity photo from Jensen. The name on the "E" boat could be "Excalibur," but in your '99 roster she's listed as a Chicago vessel and the topography in the photo looks like San Francisco. In fact, I just checked Google images and it is--there's a pointy-shaped building. Of course, the E-boat might have been shipped to the Great Lakes later. The sail number is not visible--there's something there but it looks like a single digit. Chris Campbell > > I feel better now that my sailing juices are flowing... I keep a fan > at my desk, blowing warm air into my face, I believe that if I keep my > mind on sailing in warm climates, my body might just follow! > > Cheers > > dEmO > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *Chris Campbell > *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:09 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) > > ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: >> I think I have spoken to him, here is California Girl on his cover >> (Be Be To) in 1975. >> >> He found it in his archives as I was doing research on our boat on >> it's life in Lake Michigan. >> >> Sailing and thinking about sailing is the fuel for pushing forward >> these days. > > > > > > > > > > That cover made me nostalgic. I had a bunch of old issues from my > father, and when I moved 15 years ago I shed a bunch of stuff. The > old Sailing mags went to a local library. As soon as I got moved, I > regretted losing those, so I had a friend go to the library and beg > for them back. They gave me the box of the newer issues but not the > cool old ones. Some lucky sailor must have snapped 'em up at a sale. > The magazine is a bit slicker now, and in color, but they had more > photos in the old days. > > In 1984 they had a "classics of fiberglass" article in which a panel > including Bill Lapworth, Vince Lazzara of Gulfstar & Columbia, Robert > Perry, and Charlie Morgan selected the best plastic boats so far. > There was a tie for #1: the Cal 40 and Carl Alberg's Triton. The Cal > 40 write-up includes a photo of a boat whose name begins with E and > includes a lot of letters not visible in my copy. A few years later > Robert Perry did another reflection on important plastic boats and the > Cal 40 was one that got a full-page writeup. That photo was of #10 > (name not visible). > > Chris Campbell >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] >> *On Behalf Of *Chris Campbell >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:44 PM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Chris) >> >> ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: >>> The next shot in the race sequence, we were making 14-16 knots, >>> passing a Yankee (30?). >> >> >> >> The magazine _Sailing_ is wonderful, in part because of the good >> writing of its publisher, Bill Schanen, who has a column every month. >> The latest issue features his reflections on what we northern folks >> do in the winter when we're not sailing. It boils down to thinking >> about sailing, talking about sailing, and fantasizing about sailing. >> He must not be on a boat listserv because he would have added >> "e-mailing about sailing." Your photo helps with the thinking & >> fantasizing. >> >> Chris Campbell >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1895 - Release Date: 1/15/2009 7:46 AM >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.8/1897 - Release Date: 1/16/2009 6:52 AM >

ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > Swiftsure Race, in Juan de Fuca Straits between Washington and > Vancouver Island BC. > > Earlier in the downwind portion of the race we were very far > behind, with facing only improvement we deployed our big spinnaker, > the Blooper, and a tall boy staysail to catch up, as the wind built, > we dropped the Blooper and Staysail. > > We hit 14 to 16 knots "all the time" in the Pacific Cup and Transpac. > Boat record is falling off a huge wave in the Molokai Channel, in > 35-40 knots with the 2.2 oz spinnaker up. The record mark is 24.6 > knots over the water. You tube has some shots of our last Pacific cup, Thanks for sending the links! It's midwinter and cold here, but those warmed me up. Chris Campbell

But just falling in love randomly can get us in trouble later. I from recent experience (not with boats) have learned to use my mind and not just my heart. Too philisophical? Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Fri, 1/16/09, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 7:36 AM "wouldn't it be nice" if we could consistently choose and/or predict that with which we would fall in love? Or, perhaps random attraction is the best way. Reggie To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:17:32 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) It seems from the comments there are pluses and minuses for both. Now I'm more confused than ever. I guess I will take whatever the next boat I fall in love with has. I hope it's a Cal40. Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Thu, 1/15/09, david dobbs <tmft567@yahoo. com> wrote: From: david dobbs <tmft567@yahoo. com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 7:15 PM Scott, Now that you mention it I don't know how many revolutions of the wheel I have to turn. You just do it. Just like a tiller. It's more a matter of getting to know how your boat is configured. It's just different. Regards, David dobbs --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Scott <scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net> wrote: From: Scott <scottcyphers@ sbcglobal. net> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller (Wilkie) To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:25 PM I have never driven a 29 with a wheel. I have seen them and the wheel seemed pretty small. I think that a tiller is very responsive on a boat this size. Do you have to turn the wheel several turns to get it to be hard over? Thanks, Scott 74 Cal29 I think the planet is closer to foreclosure for us anyway.--- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, DavidOwen <wilkie@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Good advice in every way, and your story is identical to mine as well. The > 29s that I found with tillers all had multiple problems. The boat that had > the right combination of price and condition ends up with a wheel. I > complain about it, especially after helming a friends tiller boat, but I > never get my dander up enough to modify my system. > > The obvious problems in going to a tiller would be giving up my really nice > traveler system and having to either order a new rudder or going to a > machine shop and having my rudder post extended a half a foot +/- and > ordering a tiller, tiller post hood, and misc. hardware. Without a lot of > research, it seems to me that I¹d probably drop another $1000 on that. Then > I have to throw away an aging but working-quite- well wheel-pilot and order a > new tiller-pilot. Then I¹d have a gorgeous Ritchie binnacle compass that > would get tossed aside too and I¹d want a pair of bulkhead compasses yada > yada. > > If I was smarter I would re-program my brain to prefer a wheel and spout all > of the advantages on a daily basis until I believed it. > > Wilkie > > PS ‹ Do we own this planet, or is it about to go into foreclosure? :P > > > > On 1/13/09 9:11 PM, "david dobbs" <tmft567@.... > wrote: > > > > > David, > > I was always a tiller guy, all the usual reasons, etc. Then I decided I > > wanted a 29, because that was the boat that I thought would fulfill my sailing > > desires/needs. Well, I found it, but it had a wheel. Right price, so the deal > > is done. Now I learn to sail with a wheel. You know, I have come to be one > > with my wheel. My brother sails with me and he is at home with the wheel. > > It's just a different way of driving the boat. As humans, we adjust; which is > > probably why we continue to own this planet. > > > > David Dobbs > > >

Scott, both falling in love and owning a sailboat are innately irrational activities. Recovery from either is a non-trivial exercise. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of scott cyphers Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) But just falling in love randomly can get us in trouble later. I from recent experience (not with boats) have learned to use my mind and not just my heart. Too philisophical? Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Fri, 1/16/09, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 7:36 AM "wouldn't it be nice" if we could consistently choose and/or predict that with which we would fall in love? Or, perhaps random attraction is the best way. Reggie

Great answer Charlie. Now that is some real philosophy. It is true they are irrational but it feels so good it's easy to forget the negative sides. Remember the first day you bought your boat? Then it's time to clean the bilge. Speaking of bilges. Does pouring vinegar really clear out that rotten oily smell? Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 11:33 AM Scott, both falling in love and owning a sailboat are innately irrational activities. Recovery from either is a non-trivial exercise. Cheers Charlie ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of scott cyphers Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:16 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) But just falling in love randomly can get us in trouble later. I from recent experience (not with boats) have learned to use my mind and not just my heart. Too philisophical? Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Fri, 1/16/09, r good <my1972ih@hotmail. com> wrote: From: r good <my1972ih@hotmail. com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 7:36 AM "wouldn't it be nice" if we could consistently choose and/or predict that with which we would fall in love? Or, perhaps random attraction is the best way. Reggie

Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > Scott, both falling in love and owning a sailboat are innately > irrational activities. Recovery from either is a non-trivial exercise. > Who would want to recover? One of my boats, the one with all the varnished mahogany, needs a new boom tent. I had a little talk with the canvas guy on Monday and got out the checkbook. Yeah, the last one lasted 16 years, and yeah, this one is supposed to last forever, being made of some miracle fabric, but wow, the inherent irrationality of boat ownership shows up on the invoice. Chris Campbell >

scott cyphers wrote: > > Great answer Charlie. Now that is some real philosophy. It is true > they are irrational but it feels so good it's easy to forget the > negative sides. Remember the first day you bought your boat? Then it's > time to clean the bilge. Speaking of bilges. Does pouring vinegar > really clear out that rotten oily smell? > The other day I had another chance to feel superior at having a tiller-steered boat. Today I get to feel superior about owning outboard-powered boats. Clean bilges. Easy repair and replacement. Periodic opportunities to exercise that part of the vocabulary that you can't use on the crew any more without giving offense. Chris Campbell > >

Isn't there an immunization? Why must we all learn by total immersion aversion therapy? R To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comFrom: hu… [at] bah.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:33:28 -0500Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) Scott, both falling in love and owning a sailboat are innatelyirrational activities. Recovery from either is a non-trivial exercise.CheersCharlie________________________________From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] OnBehalf Of scott cyphersSent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:16 PMTo: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott)But just falling in love randomly can get us in trouble later. I fromrecent experience (not with boats) have learned to use my mind and notjust my heart. Too philisophical?Scott74 Cal29--- On Fri, 1/16/09, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote:From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com>Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott)To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, January 16, 2009, 7:36 AM"wouldn't it be nice" if we could consistently choose and/orpredict that with which we would fall in love? Or, perhaps randomattraction is the best way.Reggie

Charlie, Owning a boat is easier, it can't do anything except tease you just by just being what it is. Reminds me, I haven't been to the yard for over a week, I think I need to check the cover, we had a lot of snow here. Regards, David Dobbs --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 1:33 PM Scott, both falling in love and owning a sailboat are innately irrational activities. Recovery from either is a non-trivial exercise. Cheers Charlie ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of scott cyphers Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:16 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) But just falling in love randomly can get us in trouble later. I from recent experience (not with boats) have learned to use my mind and not just my heart. Too philisophical? Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Fri, 1/16/09, r good <my1972ih@hotmail. com> wrote: From: r good <my1972ih@hotmail. com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 7:36 AM "wouldn't it be nice" if we could consistently choose and/or predict that with which we would fall in love? Or, perhaps random attraction is the best way. Reggie

Vinegar is the only thing that really worked on Diesel in the bilge. First, I pumped all of the stinchy water into containers and took to the free chem waste dump. Then, with bilge empty I slowly flooded with salt water and kept adding vinegar until the water level came above the spill scum level. I let it sit over night and pumped it out, again into containers and back to the legal dump site. If this doesnt work try again, all the bilge cleaners in the world will not do the job of about 4 gallons of white vinegar @ 1.99 per gal. It worked for me, the diesel smell never came back. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) scott cyphers wrote: Great answer Charlie. Now that is some real philosophy. It is true they are irrational but it feels so good it's easy to forget the negative sides. Remember the first day you bought your boat? Then it's time to clean the bilge. Speaking of bilges. Does pouring vinegar really clear out that rotten oily smell? The other day I had another chance to feel superior at having a tiller-steered boat. Today I get to feel superior about owning outboard-powered boats. Clean bilges. Easy repair and replacement. Periodic opportunities to exercise that part of the vocabulary that you can't use on the crew any more without giving offense. Chris Campbell __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3773 (20090117) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Thanks for the advice. I will try when I get back to my boat. It would be so nice to open the washboards and have it not stink. Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) (Bilge Cleaners) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 8:43 AM Vinegar is the only thing that really worked on Diesel in the bilge. First, I pumped all of the stinchy water into containers and took to the free chem waste dump. Then, with bilge empty I slowly flooded with salt water and kept adding vinegar until the water level came above the spill scum level. I let it sit over night and pumped it out, again into containers and back to the legal dump site. If this doesnt work try again, all the bilge cleaners in the world will not do the job of about 4 gallons of white vinegar @ 1.99 per gal. It worked for me, the diesel smell never came back. Mark From: Chris Campbell To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) scott cyphers wrote: Great answer Charlie. Now that is some real philosophy. It is true they are irrational but it feels so good it's easy to forget the negative sides. Remember the first day you bought your boat? Then it's time to clean the bilge. Speaking of bilges. Does pouring vinegar really clear out that rotten oily smell? The other day I had another chance to feel superior at having a tiller-steered boat. Today I get to feel superior about owning outboard-powered boats. Clean bilges. Easy repair and replacement. Periodic opportunities to exercise that part of the vocabulary that you can't use on the crew any more without giving offense. Chris Campbell __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3773 (20090117) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset. com

Mark, is there anything chemically magic in the use of salt water vice fresh in your bilge recipe? Cheers Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of scott cyphers Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:21 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) (Bilge Cleaners) Thanks for the advice. I will try when I get back to my boat. It would be so nice to open the washboards and have it not stink. Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) (Bilge Cleaners) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 8:43 AM Vinegar is the only thing that really worked on Diesel in the bilge. First, I pumped all of the stinchy water into containers and took to the free chem waste dump. Then, with bilge empty I slowly flooded with salt water and kept adding vinegar until the water level came above the spill scum level. I let it sit over night and pumped it out, again into containers and back to the legal dump site. If this doesnt work try again, all the bilge cleaners in the world will not do the job of about 4 gallons of white vinegar @ 1.99 per gal. It worked for me, the diesel smell never came back. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell <mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) scott cyphers wrote: Great answer Charlie. Now that is some real philosophy. It is true they are irrational but it feels so good it's easy to forget the negative sides. Remember the first day you bought your boat? Then it's time to clean the bilge. Speaking of bilges. Does pouring vinegar really clear out that rotten oily smell? The other day I had another chance to feel superior at having a tiller-steered boat. Today I get to feel superior about owning outboard-powered boats. Clean bilges. Easy repair and replacement. Periodic opportunities to exercise that part of the vocabulary that you can't use on the crew any more without giving offense. Chris Campbell __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3773 (20090117) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset. com <http://www.eset.com/>

Charlie, Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Husar, Charlie [USA] To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners Mark, is there anything chemically magic in the use of salt water vice fresh in your bilge recipe? Cheers Charlie Annapolis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of scott cyphers Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:21 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) (Bilge Cleaners) Thanks for the advice. I will try when I get back to my boat. It would be so nice to open the washboards and have it not stink. Scott 74 Cal29 --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) (Bilge Cleaners) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 8:43 AM Vinegar is the only thing that really worked on Diesel in the bilge. First, I pumped all of the stinchy water into containers and took to the free chem waste dump. Then, with bilge empty I slowly flooded with salt water and kept adding vinegar until the water level came above the spill scum level. I let it sit over night and pumped it out, again into containers and back to the legal dump site. If this doesnt work try again, all the bilge cleaners in the world will not do the job of about 4 gallons of white vinegar @ 1.99 per gal. It worked for me, the diesel smell never came back. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Campbell To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Wheel vs. Tiller(Scott) scott cyphers wrote: Great answer Charlie. Now that is some real philosophy. It is true they are irrational but it feels so good it's easy to forget the negative sides. Remember the first day you bought your boat? Then it's time to clean the bilge. Speaking of bilges. Does pouring vinegar really clear out that rotten oily smell? The other day I had another chance to feel superior at having a tiller-steered boat. Today I get to feel superior about owning outboard-powered boats. Clean bilges. Easy repair and replacement. Periodic opportunities to exercise that part of the vocabulary that you can't use on the crew any more without giving offense. Chris Campbell __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3773 (20090117) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset. com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3780 (20090120) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote: > > Charlie, > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > Mark Mark: Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one night that included tan carpet). Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on your cleanup. Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in your bilge as well.

Has anyone checked out Two Buck Chuck's for this function? (In truth, I think the stuff tastes OK, but on the East Coast it is Three Buck Chuck's). Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sailingbuds Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:07 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote: > > Charlie, > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > Mark Mark: Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one night that included tan carpet). Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on your cleanup. Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in your bilge as well. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Charlie, White, I assume? My guess is that the sugar would be a problem. Gina Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: Has anyone checked out Two Buck Chuck's for this function? (In truth, I think the stuff tastes OK, but on the East Coast it is Three Buck Chuck's). Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sailingbuds Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:07 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote: > > Charlie, > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if > salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > Mark Mark: Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one night that included tan carpet). Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on your cleanup. Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in your bilge as well. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

You could maybe try balsamic vinegar to be more "gourmet" about it... though that stuff is expensive! From: G Strauch <gs… [at] cornell.edu> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:14:17 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Bilge Vinegar Charlie, White, I assume? My guess is that the sugar would be a problem. Gina Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: Has anyone checked out Two Buck Chuck's for this function? (In truth, I think the stuff tastes OK, but on the East Coast it is Three Buck Chuck's). Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of sailingbuds Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:07 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\) " <masconsult@ ...> wrote: > > Charlie, > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if > salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > Mark Mark: Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one night that included tan carpet). Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on your cleanup. Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in your bilge as well. ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Out here on the Los Angeles Harbor we foolishly paid at the Ports O' Call Restraint 18.00 for a bottle of Crane Lake Merlot. We have redefined the 2 buck chuck to include this fine bottle since it can be purchased at Henry's for 2.99, but that's not all, if you buy six bottles, take off another 10%. Now that's a two buck chuck that does not make me wanna chuck k k k keeuuaaaah! I stick with what does the job in less time less money and tried by others first when ever possible. Cheapest white vinegar and salt water flooded to bilge limit. Remove disgusting water and dump appropriately. Then the only problem you have left is to get rid of the vinegar smell. Thats easy, use simple green or orange-sol. Just spray the surfaces and where possible use a sponge and do a little scrubbing. Second thought your the captain, get the wife to do the scrubbing..with your help! Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Lord Nougat To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Bilge Vinegar You could maybe try balsamic vinegar to be more "gourmet" about it... though that stuff is expensive! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: G Strauch <gs… [at] cornell.edu> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:14:17 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Bilge Vinegar Charlie, White, I assume? My guess is that the sugar would be a problem. Gina Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: Has anyone checked out Two Buck Chuck's for this function? (In truth, I think the stuff tastes OK, but on the East Coast it is Three Buck Chuck's). Cheers Charlie -----Original Message----- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of sailingbuds Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:07 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\) " <masconsult@ ...> wrote: > > Charlie, > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if > salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > Mark Mark: Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one night that included tan carpet). Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on your cleanup. Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in your bilge as well. ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3781 (20090120) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote: > > Out here on the Los Angeles Harbor we foolishly paid at the Ports O' Call Restraint 18.00 for a bottle of Crane Lake Merlot. We have redefined the 2 buck chuck to include this fine bottle since it can be purchased at Henry's for 2.99, but that's not all, if you buy six bottles, take off another 10%. Now that's a two buck chuck that does not make me wanna chuck k k k keeuuaaaah! > > I stick with what does the job in less time less money and tried by others first when ever possible. Cheapest white vinegar and salt water flooded to bilge limit. Remove disgusting water and dump appropriately. Then the only problem you have left is to get rid of the vinegar smell. Thats easy, use simple green or orange-sol. Just spray the surfaces and where possible use a sponge and do a little scrubbing. Second thought your the captain, get the wife to do the scrubbing..with your help! > Mark > I use white vinegar in my holding tank between seasons and it works well. I buy a 5 gallon jug at Costco, I think, fr a few bucks and put a gallon or so in after each trip. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "sailingbuds" <sailingbuds@...> wrote: > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS > Consulting\)" <masconsult@> wrote: > > > > Charlie, > > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if salt or > fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the > vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > > Mark > > Mark: > Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your > entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners > have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red > wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just > sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it > in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If > any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup > water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than > you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one > night that included tan carpet). > > Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of > cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium > and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid > property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, > the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on > your cleanup. > Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in > your bilge as well. > OK - this is off the wall, but according to my former neighbor, he used grape kool-aid (unsweetened) to clean the bilge. Kool-aid is acidic and smells good. he was an engineer on the USS America (CV-66) where he claimed to have picked up the trick I've never done this myself, although he was not the kind of guy to pull your leg.

Spilling red wine is alcohol abuse. So, to save stains on your carpet - Do Not Spill! Words of wisdom from Tom --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Bilge Vinegar To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 1:00 PM Has anyone checked out Two Buck Chuck's for this function? (In truth, I think the stuff tastes OK, but on the East Coast it is Three Buck Chuck's). Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of sailingbuds Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:07 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\) " <masconsult@ ...> wrote: > > Charlie, > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if salt or fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > Mark Mark: Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one night that included tan carpet). Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on your cleanup. Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in your bilge as well. ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Kool Aide as a bildge cleaner? Isn't that what Jim Jones used to kill hundreds of his followers in Jonestown, Guiana? Sounds like dangerous stuff! How do we generate a little cyanide gas to go with the mix? Jerry PS I think the salt dehydrates the poor little organisms same way it does us, try drinking lots of salt water and see what happens, good bowel prep for a colonoscopy. Koolaide has acid in it which oxydizes the poor little bugs' cell walls. Acetic acid? Phosphoric Acid? That next one is used in soft drinks. Diet Coke in the bidge? What about using dilute lye? --- On Tue, 1/20/09, james_s20895 <ja… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: james_s20895 <ja… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bilge Cleaners To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 5:00 PM --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "sailingbuds" <sailingbuds@ ...> wrote: > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS > Consulting\) " <masconsult@ > wrote: > > > > Charlie, > > Not being a chemist, I do not have a technical clue if salt or > fresh water has any influence other than a transporter for the > vinegar. I do know I did not want to buy 40 gallons of vinegar! > > Mark > > Mark: > Salt is an extraordinary cleaning and deodorizing agent for your > entire home or in this case your boat. Many enviro friendly cleaners > have salt and vinegar. (cleans spots on a rug just fine. Got a red > wine spill on your carpet, blot up what you can and then just > sprinkle salt right out of the box on the stain -be generous- work it > in, let it sit for 20 minutes & then vacuum. You will be amazed. If > any stain is left - use a misture of 1/2 cup vinegar and 2/3rds cup > water and work it in, blot, work in fresh, blot.) (probably more than > you wanted to know - I was amazed with the salt and wine removal one > night that included tan carpet). > > Sometimes household water can be too hard to do an effective job of > cleaning. The water supply may contain high concentrations of calcium > and magnesium which gives it a high pH, therefore the vinegar acid > property is being used up or diulted by the calcium and magnesium, > the salt takes care of it better and allows the vinegar to work on > your cleanup. > Plus salt will help kill off any foul bacteria and mold down there in > your bilge as well. > OK - this is off the wall, but according to my former neighbor, he used grape kool-aid (unsweetened) to clean the bilge. Kool-aid is acidic and smells good. he was an engineer on the USS America (CV-66) where he claimed to have picked up the trick I've never done this myself, although he was not the kind of guy to pull your leg.

Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: > > > > I stick with what does the job in less time less money and tried by > others first when ever possible. Cheapest white vinegar and salt > water flooded to bilge limit. Remove disgusting water and dump > appropriately. This fall I tried vinegar as a wash to get the summer's lime buildup off my hull. Previously I had used those acid washes from the hardware store for getting rid of rust stains and other offenses. They all come with big warnings and the dangers of getting drips in your eyes. The vinegar did the job easily (rub a little bit until you feel the stuff dissolve), cheaply, and safely. I was impressed. It was interesting how I could feel the change in resistance as it worked. Chris Campbell

Wednasday, 01/21/2009 Hi Mark, & Chris, Good Morning, I wish to thank you both as I benefited by your advice re using just vinegar to tackle rust stains/hard calcium deposits... Fair Winds & Following Seas Bill --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Bilge Vinegar To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 7:30 AM Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: I stick with what does the job in less time less money and tried by others first when ever possible. Cheapest white vinegar and salt water flooded to bilge limit. Remove disgusting water and dump appropriately. This fall I tried vinegar as a wash to get the summer's lime buildup off my hull. Previously I had used those acid washes from the hardware store for getting rid of rust stains and other offenses. They all come with big warnings and the dangers of getting drips in your eyes. The vinegar did the job easily (rub a little bit until you feel the stuff dissolve), cheaply, and safely. I was impressed. It was interesting how I could feel the change in resistance as it worked. Chris Campbell

Vinegar is a great thing to have aboard sailboats. HOwever, carrying gallons at a time is not practical. Is there a vinegar concentrate or equivalent which could be diluted as needed? I recognize vinegar is just a mild acid. It would seem another acid could be diluted to vinegar strength and accomplish the same things. Reggie

Store bought vinegar is diluted to 5%. I would love to find a stronger version. I also use vinegar for weed/grass control, instead of poison. It works fairly well, but only if it was available in a stronger concentration. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: r good To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:33 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] vinegar Vinegar is a great thing to have aboard sailboats. HOwever, carrying gallons at a time is not practical. Is there a vinegar concentrate or equivalent which could be diluted as needed? I recognize vinegar is just a mild acid. It would seem another acid could be diluted to vinegar strength and accomplish the same things. Reggie __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3796 (20090124) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

On Saturday 24 January 2009 12:48:43 Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: White vinegar is simply acetic acid in a low concentration typically no more then 7 percent. If you can source a litre...errr quart you would have enough for a few years. Stores easily in a dark plastic jug.....memories of my lab days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Acetic-Acid-Glacial-16oz-P16220C672.aspx -- /ch

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote: > > Store bought vinegar is diluted to 5%. I would love to find a stronger version. I also use vinegar for weed/grass control, instead of poison. It works fairly well, but only if it was available in a stronger concentration. When you get to about 40% it becomes very thick and is called glacial acetic acid. I don't know of commercial sources but chemical dealers could probably get it. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > Mark > ----- Original Message ----- > From: r good > To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:33 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] vinegar > > > Vinegar is a great thing to have aboard sailboats. HOwever, carrying gallons at a time is not practical. Is there a vinegar concentrate or equivalent which could be diluted as needed? I recognize vinegar is just a mild acid. It would seem another acid could be diluted to vinegar strength and accomplish the same things. > Reggie > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3796 (20090124) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com >

I've been told there is a 9%readily available which works great on weeds. forget where Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.comFrom: mt… [at] cox.netDate: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:18:25 +0000Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: vinegar --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MASConsulting\)" <masconsult@...> wrote:>> Store bought vinegar is diluted to 5%. I would love to find astronger version. I also use vinegar for weed/grass control, insteadof poison. It works fairly well, but only if it was available in astronger concentration.When you get to about 40% it becomes very thick and is called glacialacetic acid. I don't know of commercial sources but chemical dealerscould probably get it.Mike KennedyConquest Cal 40 # 96> Mark> ----- Original Message ----- > From: r good > To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:33 AM> Subject: [Cal_Boats] vinegar> > > Vinegar is a great thing to have aboard sailboats. HOwever,carrying gallons at a time is not practical. Is there a vinegarconcentrate or equivalent which could be diluted as needed? Irecognize vinegar is just a mild acid. It would seem another acidcould be diluted to vinegar strength and accomplish the same things.> Reggie> > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignature database 3796 (20090124) __________> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.> > http://www.eset.com>

Both citric and acetic acid are available here in central New York in powdered form in the asian or imported foods department of grocery stores. They are probably available online too. Gina Cal 25, Stultitia Chris h wrote: White vinegar is simply acetic acid in a low concentration typically no more then 7 percent. If you can source a litre...errr quart you would have enough for a few years. Stores easily in a dark plastic jug.....memories of my lab days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Acetic-Acid-Glacial-16oz-P16220C672.aspx -- /ch

The stronger vinegar is horticulture vinegar. I found it in 10-20% at about 14.00 a gal. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: G Strauch To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] vinegar Both citric and acetic acid are available here in central New York in powdered form in the asian or imported foods department of grocery stores. They are probably available online too. Gina Cal 25, Stultitia Chris h wrote: White vinegar is simply acetic acid in a low concentration typically no more then 7 percent. If you can source a litre...errr quart you would have enough for a few years. Stores easily in a dark plastic jug.....memories of my lab days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Acetic-Acid-Glacial-16oz-P16220C672.aspx -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3800 (20090126) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com