Re: [Cal_Boats] Time to stop your West Marine Whining(David and Tom)

David, Tom, West Marine was there for me when the local Chandlery was over charging me for boat parts when I was at the Annacappa Boatyard in Channal Islands Harbor, however, the boatyard store was small, very well stocked with the exact parts I need to refit my boat, and a few steps from where my boat was on the hard, and had a high staff/clerk to stock ratio, with very experienced staff. West Marine generaly has stores which are much, much larger, and they stock things like clothes, books, electronics gear, sun glasses, watches, jewelry, furniture etc. that may be higher mark up, and generally their staff is less knowledgeable on boat specifics, with the exception of some, for sure. Shopping at West Marine is, to be sure, a pleasant experience. What pieves most of us, is that the scuttlebutt is, and the evidence is there, that they used unfair business practices to scuttle Boat US, and we wonder why Boat US wasn't allowed to put in a store where the former Waikiki Willey's Restaurant was (in front of my boat's dock) whereas the building was finally, and temporarily, turned into an oversized sales office for local MdR high rise condos. Meanwhile, West Marine doubled the size of its large store, and put in another, nearly as big a store, two blocks away!! Meanwhile, Boat US's only store was almost three miles from the Marina, next to the San Diego Freeway, until they finally gave up the ghost. Boat US badly wanted to open a store inside Mdr, too. What happened? Jerry And, why is Ships Store, a tiny, independent chandlery here in MdR, able to undercut West Marine by 15% or more on almost everything, on things like blocks and yacht rope, paint supplies, glue, fittings, when before West Marine was at least 20% cheaper on everything? That's an over 30% price switch situation overnight. One can check prices in West Marine catalogues and see the dramatic changes in just two or three years, vastly more than inflation would dictate, unless you were looking at former increases in real estate costs...or boat slip gouging going on here courtesy the gangster cartel or "Supervisors" running Los Angeles County. Jerry --- On Thu, 3/19/09, david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Time to stop your West Marine Whining( To: "Tom" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 7:32 PM Tom, I have to agree with you, I worked for E/B Marine for about 6 months, and really enjoyed it. West seemed to want us to help our customers. Which is what we did. Regards, Dave Dobbs --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Tom Vandiver <bshmarine@yahoo. com> wrote: > From: Tom Vandiver <bshmarine@yahoo. com> > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Time to stop your West Marine Whining > To: "Cal List" <Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 7:31 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, enough! I know it's > March and this type of post comes around each year when > those of you in the "Frozen North" are getting > cabin fever. Each year I try to restore some reality. > > As some of you know, I have been a part time West > Marine Sales Associate since August 1995. I have and > continue to exercise all of my stock options and in 14 years > have acquired a bit of West Marine stock. So, not only > do I work there, I am part owner. > > I am not an official spokesman for West Marine, but as > an employee ,1995,and a Cal boater, (Cal 46 & 25), since > 1970, and knowing some of you from our Cal Tripping, I would > like to clear up some misconceptions some of you > share. > > West Marine operates with a margin about the same as > almost any retailer in America. The prices charged are the > result of material costs, shipping, displaying, etc. and > those prices are the same across the company except the > obvious like Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico where shipping > costs are greater. > > The reason "Mom and Pop" Chandleries go bust > are many. My perception is that Mom and Pop worked long > hours, knew and loved their business, their customers and > knew their product. Mom and Pop got old or died and son or > daughter are not interested, too lazy, or not willing or > disciplined enough to run a store. West Marine stores are > open seven (7) days a week to serve you, closed only on > Christmas and New Years Day. > > West Marine stores, www.westmarine. com and > the catalog prices are about the same, except shipping. West > also matches prices on Defender, etc. allowing for sales > tax, shipping etc.. to make the game fair. > > It is a sunny, 70+ degree Saturday morning and I am > going to work on my boats, but I had to respond to all of > your complaining about a "Successful" American > Free Enterprise, based on your occasional dissatisfaction > when we did not have stainless steel hercumdizer you needed > for your 40 year old boat on Dec. 24 at 7PM. > > I forward all post re: West Marine to the company. We > do listen and try to satisfy all. If you complain to a store > manager and don't get results, please let me know. e > mail oldflathead@ > bshmarine. com or call me 850-572-1225, CDT 0700 - 1900 > > > Tom Vandiver, Cal 46 & 25, Happy West Marine > Associate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

But Jerry, you're "rich" and a boat owner... you are an elitist out there in your boat and a sailboat, why we know that only rich folk have thems. "Bam" as I see him called in the press (yack, retch, blow cookies) is for the common man and not the rich bourgeoisie (sp?). And why Nancy, she looks after the little folk too. We have to do away with all those marina things, they take up too much valuable real estate that could be used for the people. Gerald Sobel wrote: > One can check prices in West Marine catalogues and see the dramatic > changes in just two or three years, vastly more than inflation would > dictate, unless you were looking at former increases in real estate > costs...or boat slip gouging going on here courtesy the gangster > cartel or "Supervisors" running Los Angeles County. > Jerry >

Jerry: Now you've done it. Your shopping list of items and observations was just sent to West Marine Headquarters by Tom along with the rest of our comments. Say goodbye to "Ships Store." The notion that WM lives on the "margin about the same as almost any retailer in America." is just plain silly. I have been a consumer AND a distributor at WM for years. Many of the products that don't require "marine grade" can be had at hardware stores. Items like shrink tubing, Dri-Z-Air refils, S/S screws and bolts, etc, etc, etc, etc and are marked up 200-300% at WM. I would buy these items from them while I'm there if they were really competitively priced. Happy West Marine Associate Tom just cannot tell me that they live on skinny margins. My local WM is staffed by two very nice and completely clueless ladies in comfortable shoes. The staff of real sailors is long gone. I can buy the products I need at Fisheries Supply, Englund Marine or several on-line stores and get better help AND prices. WM is a convenience store when I need a last minute item. The heavy-handed actions of WM in absorbing and then driving competitors out in our area was legal and common. It's also what's wrong with corporate America when it creates an unfair advantage. Greed is NOT always good and we remember. My personal experience with WM includes selling my navigational trainer in their catalogue. Their inventory requirements and stocking practices were also heavy handed and made them impossible to deal with. The other 300 chandleries in my distribution channel were FAR easier to work with and far more effective at marketing my product. I eventually fired WM despite their market reach! Far too difficult to deal with. Please don't scold us for our personal insights, Tom. Correcting our opinions and scolding us for having them is a bit demeaning. We've earned 'em. Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there from time to time. Dan --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > David, Tom, > West Marine was there for me when the local Chandlery was over charging me for boat parts when I was at the Annacappa Boatyard in Channal Islands Harbor, however, the boatyard store was small, very well stocked with the exact parts I need to refit my boat, and a few steps from where my boat was on the hard, and had a high staff/clerk to stock ratio, with very experienced staff. <SNIP> From: Tom Vandiver <bshmarine@yahoo. com> > > > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Time to stop your West Marine Whining > > > To: "Cal List" <Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> > > > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 7:31 AM Okay, enough! I know it's March and this type of post comes around each year when those of you in the "Frozen North" are getting cabin fever. Each year I try to restore some reality. > > As some of you know, I have been a part time West > > Marine Sales Associate since August 1995. I have and > > continue to exercise all of my stock options and in 14 years > > have acquired a bit of West Marine stock. So, not only > > do I work there, I am part owner. I am not an official spokesman for West Marine, but as > > > an employee ,1995,and a Cal boater, (Cal 46 & 25), since > > > 1970, and knowing some of you from our Cal Tripping, I would > > > like to clear up some misconceptions some of you share. > > West Marine operates with a margin about the same as > > > almost any retailer in America. The prices charged are the > > > result of material costs, shipping, displaying, etc. and > > > those prices are the same across the company except the > > > obvious like Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico where shipping > > > costs are greater. The reason "Mom and Pop" Chandleries go bust > > > are many. My perception is that Mom and Pop worked long > > > hours, knew and loved their business, their customers and > > > knew their product. Mom and Pop got old or died and son or > > > daughter are not interested, too lazy, or not willing or > > > disciplined enough to run a store. West Marine stores are > > > open seven (7) days a week to serve you, closed only on > > > Christmas and New Years Day. West Marine stores, www.westmarine. com and > > > the catalog prices are about the same, except shipping. West > > > also matches prices on Defender, etc. allowing for sales > > > tax, shipping etc.. to make the game fair. > > > It is a sunny, 70+ degree Saturday morning and I am > > > going to work on my boats, but I had to respond to all of > > > your complaining about a "Successful" American > > > Free Enterprise, based on your occasional dissatisfaction > > > when we did not have stainless steel hercumdizer you needed > > > for your 40 year old boat on Dec. 24 at 7PM. > I forward all post re: West Marine to the company. We > > > do listen and try to satisfy all. If you complain to a store > > > manager and don't get results, please let me know. e > > > mail oldflathead@bshmarine. com or call me 850-572-1225, CDT 0700 - 1900 Tom Vandiver, Cal 46 & 25, Happy West Marine Associate

Dan wrote: > > > WM is a convenience store when I need a last minute item. > > The heavy-handed actions of WM in absorbing and then driving > competitors out in our area was legal and common. It's also what's > wrong with corporate America when it creates an unfair advantage. > Greed is NOT always good and we remember. > > > Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there > from time to time. > Good comments, Dan. I do shop at West from time to time, but as little as possible because they have not earned my trust or loyalty. Big retailers always argue "free market" to justify their practices but then they are the whiners when we exercise our free-market right to shop online or by mail order or at some local place with good service. My own notion is that retailers like West Marine must earn my loyalty by providing service, even if that service is a cost item to them. This notion that ruthlessly paring inventory is beneficial to the customer just doesn't convince me. Chris Campbell > > > > _ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >

Gents, This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty of that in the rest of life. I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization out of work. I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. Now let's get back on the water! Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma MBA University. of Michigan 1970 On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > Dan wrote: >> Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there >> from time to time. >

They are a great company. They charge premium prices and don't make a profit. Their profit margin is -6.15% for the last 12 months. They are a "category killer", which means they put everyone else out of business, which makes it hard to price match a local store. They will not price match mail order any longer. But I agree they are a great source especially if you can't find it anywhere else or need it in a hurry. http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=WMAR#chart1:symbol=wmar;range=5y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined Allen --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Fred Haas <oldrower@...> wrote: > > Gents, > This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our > old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was > this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. > Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty > of that in the rest of life. > > I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different > perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the > largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and > all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest > parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car > business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner > community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might > be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell > West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The > local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to > that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All > was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking > our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization > out of work. > > I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be > able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the > boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction > as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed > by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the > emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their > boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but > always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. > > I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that > it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to > stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly > traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If > it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or > invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer > and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise > purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make > exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new > smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive > away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check > out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. > > West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me > that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an > item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make > business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel > you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager > will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. > West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair > amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are > what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. > Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. > > Now let's get back on the water! > > Fred Haas > 3-30 Nemesis > Tacoma > > MBA University. of Michigan 1970 > > > On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > Dan wrote: > >> Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there > >> from time to time. > > >

I don't usually weigh-in on these West Marine vs The Little Guy arguments. I will say this, however.. There is a great disparity between the quality and customer service levels of West Marine Stores. Until recently, I lived an hour north of Annapolis near a waterfront community called Middle River, MD. If I went to the local West Marine up there, they sold all sorts of fishing rods, beer coozies, trolling motors, and other powerboat accessories. Out of an entire huge store of boating parts, there was one paltry half isle of sailboat hardware. Most of the Lewmar and Harken gear was kept behind a glass pane, so you had to get assistance to get something you wanted to look at. Their staff was just the worst, mostly teenagers who had never set foot on a boat. I made a mistake of asking a question one day and I was told that I needed someone in the "Rope" isle and that someone in the "sailboat pulley" isle would be along to help me soon. After getting back in the car and driving the extra hour to Annapolis, I stopped at the West Marine down there, and the store was brimming with sailboat gear. Alas, they didn't have the specific blocks I needed to fix my outhaul, but they knew enough to refer me to Fawcetts, the small private boating supply store that I now use as my primary boating supply center. Their help was on target and the person in the sailing hardware department explained the various hardware I needed and working load/breaking load of the various series of blocks. He also made good recommendations for racing cordage (which I ended up buying at Annapolis Performance Sailing). I have to admit that I like Fawcetts better, however, because I identify with the small business, and everyone in the privately owned shop knows me by name when I come in and makes me feel at home (like Norrm on Cheers). Their riggers are knowledgeable and are always happy to help me design the systems I need. I admit that I do price shop a little, and typically go in to Fawcetts with a WM price list form their website. If the price at WM is much better than the local stand alone shop, I go to WM to make the purchase. I'm not an "anti big business conspiracy theorist" but I grew up out in the country, and have always preferred the "corner store" to the mall. I tend to steer away from the maga stores and stick to the smaller shops where possible. Cheers, Scott S. Cal 25 #1651 Indefatigable Annapolis,MD _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Haas Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:24 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Time to stop your West Marine Whining (Davidand Tom) Gents, This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty of that in the rest of life. I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization out of work. I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. Now let's get back on the water! Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma MBA University. of Michigan 1970 On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: Dan wrote: Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there from time to time.

I found and joined this group not to long ago to learn and share information. If I wanted to hear people moan and complain for days at a time I am sure I can find another group with more legitimate reasons to complain for days and weeks at a time. So, let's move on to better and more fun topics then what WM is or isn't. --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Fred Haas <oldrower@...> wrote: > > Gents, > This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our > old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was > this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. > Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty > of that in the rest of life. > > I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different > perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the > largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and > all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest > parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car > business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner > community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might > be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell > West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The > local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to > that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All > was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking > our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization > out of work. > > I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be > able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the > boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction > as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed > by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the > emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their > boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but > always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. > > I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that > it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to > stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly > traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If > it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or > invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer > and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise > purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make > exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new > smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive > away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check > out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. > > West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me > that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an > item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make > business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel > you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager > will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. > West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair > amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are > what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. > Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. > > Now let's get back on the water! > > Fred Haas > 3-30 Nemesis > Tacoma > > MBA University. of Michigan 1970 > > > On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > Dan wrote: > >> Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there > >> from time to time. > > >

AMEN Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "jeffn67@..." <jeffn67@...> wrote: > > I found and joined this group not to long ago to learn and share information. If I wanted to hear people moan and complain for days at a time I am sure I can find another group with more legitimate reasons to complain for days and weeks at a time. So, let's move on to better and more fun topics then what WM is or isn't. > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Fred Haas <oldrower@> wrote: > > > > Gents, > > This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our > > old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was > > this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. > > Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty > > of that in the rest of life. > > > > I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different > > perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the > > largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and > > all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest > > parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car > > business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner > > community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might > > be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell > > West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The > > local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to > > that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All > > was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking > > our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization > > out of work. > > > > I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be > > able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the > > boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction > > as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed > > by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the > > emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their > > boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but > > always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. > > > > I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that > > it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to > > stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly > > traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If > > it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or > > invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer > > and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise > > purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make > > exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new > > smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive > > away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check > > out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. > > > > West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me > > that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an > > item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make > > business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel > > you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager > > will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. > > West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair > > amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are > > what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. > > Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. > > > > Now let's get back on the water! > > > > Fred Haas > > 3-30 Nemesis > > Tacoma > > > > MBA University. of Michigan 1970 > > > > > > On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > > > Dan wrote: > > >> Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there > > >> from time to time. > > > > > >

ya know there's a sailing list I forget the name of where you can wax on about ethereal BS... je… [at] sbcglobal.net wrote: > I found and joined this group not to long ago to learn and share information. If I wanted to hear people moan and complain for days at a time I am sure I can find another group with more legitimate reasons to complain for days and weeks at a time. So, let's move on to better and more fun topics then what WM is or isn't. > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Fred Haas <oldrower@...> wrote: > >> Gents, >> This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our >> old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was >> this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. >> Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty >> of that in the rest of life. >> >> I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different >> perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the >> largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and >> all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest >> parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car >> business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner >> community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might >> be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell >> West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The >> local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to >> that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All >> was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking >> our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization >> out of work. >> >> I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be >> able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the >> boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction >> as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed >> by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the >> emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their >> boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but >> always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. >> >> I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that >> it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to >> stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly >> traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If >> it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or >> invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer >> and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise >> purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make >> exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new >> smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive >> away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check >> out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. >> >> West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me >> that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an >> item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make >> business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel >> you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager >> will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. >> West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair >> amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are >> what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. >> Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. >> >> Now let's get back on the water! >> >> Fred Haas >> 3-30 Nemesis >> Tacoma >> >> MBA University. of Michigan 1970 >> >> >> On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: >> >> >>> Dan wrote: >>> >>>> Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there >>>> from time to time. >>>> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > -- *´¨) ¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·'*Marsh ----------------------------- Marsh Wise Webmaster: -reenactor.Net: <http://www.reenactor.net/> Read my Blog (bore yourself): <http://www.reenactor.net/rnet_admin/marsh/marshblog.html> -1./Infanterie-Regiment 23 <http://www.ir23.org> -Foresthill.US: <http://www.foresthill.us/> -Legio IX Hispana Penna: http://www.reenactor.net/units/legio_ix_penna/ -The Dogs Place <http://www.the-dogs-place.com/> Assistant Webmaster: -VAQ-33 Squadron site: <http://www.reenactor.net/vaq-33/> Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze Yahoo Messenger screen name: sturmkatze Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt "A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself. ~Mark Twain *Last: Hey Dammit! Have you visited the reenactor.Net FORvMS? If not, WHY NOT? Gett your butt over to: <http://www.reenactor.net/forums/index.php> right now!

I was wondering if there were any Cals in the Howlands landing race yesterday and today.From our view it looked like a slow race over with about 2-6 knots of South Westerly. A slow all day series of tacks trip over. To day, on the other hand, the wind piped up early this morning with white capped wind waves out of the South West. The San Pedro Channel to Catalina looks like about 30-40 knots consistent from here. That's windy for us out of LA area, but you guys from Ventura, Channel Islands regularly sail in these conditions don't you? I have created a wooden carrier to mount my holding tank a head of the water tank located at the V berth. After hours of painstaking mitering oak and clear fir with carriage bolt construction, a friend asked why not just keep the tank off the hull with spray foam from HD? That did not seem like a very seaworthy method to keep the weight of 10 gallons of crap focused on the tanks bottom corners and resting on the hull with some foam between to support. ??? Have I missed something here, or is it some just like to over build cause we can. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Marsh Wise To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Time to stop your West Marine Whining (Davidand Tom) ya know there's a sailing list I forget the name of where you can wax on about ethereal BS... je… [at] sbcglobal.net wrote: I found and joined this group not to long ago to learn and share information. If I wanted to hear people moan and complain for days at a time I am sure I can find another group with more legitimate reasons to complain for days and weeks at a time. So, let's move on to better and more fun topics then what WM is or isn't. --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Fred Haas <oldrower@...> wrote: Gents, This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it was this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years ago. Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. Plenty of that in the rest of life. I look at the West Marine situation from a slightly different perspective. For six years I had worked for Olympic Boat Centers, the largest Bayliner dealer in the world. I sold parts over the counter and all over the world. When I started at Olympic I encountered the poorest parts operation I had ever seen, including my 20+ years in the car business. By the end we were well respected and known in the Bayliner community as the place to go to get help with whatever your need might be. Our customers appreciated the fact that we could often undersell West, but what they really appreciated was our customer service. The local West store had had a couple of years of not paying attention to that aspect of their business and we were able to capitalize on it. All was for nought as we went out of business in a blaze of glory, sticking our unsecured creditors for $50MM and putting an entire organization out of work. I started working for West Marine part time last week, and hope to be able to recover financially. I think of myself as an expert in the boating hobby and an advocate of the concept of customer satisfaction as the ultimate driver of any retail business. I am mightily impressed by the corporate culture I have encountered. At every level the emphasis is on keeping the customer a customer by satisfying their boating needs. There is never-ending product and sales training, but always it begins and ends with satisfying the customer. I agree that "WM is here to stay," which has more relevance for me that it might have six months ago. And the first thing you have to do to stay around is make a profit. West is not a charity, it is a publicly traded company. Like any company it must be profitable to survive. If it doesn't make adequate profit it will not be able to stock product or invest in the people who make it successful. Customers will find fewer and fewer products to buy, and fewer people to help them make wise purchase decisions. They will wither and die. If they try to make exhorbitant profits their customers will vote with their feet and new smaller competitors will appear to capture the business they drive away. That is the nature of business. If you're unsure of this, check out Boater's World, which filed for bankruptcy this week. West may be the 800 pound gorilla, but so far, at least, it seems to me that they understand their business. If you find a better price on an item, West will match it. If you need something that it doesn't make business sense for them to stock, they'll order it for you. If you feel you're no getting the level of service you deserve, the store manager will anxious to hear about it and will try to resolve the situation. West spends a fair amount of their gross profit on training, a fair amount on merchandising to make sure the products in the stores are what the customer wants, and a fair amount on employee retention. Seem's like a reasonable way to run a business to me. Now let's get back on the water! Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma MBA University. of Michigan 1970 On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: Dan wrote: Despite our "whinning," WM is here to stay and we all end up there from time to time. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links -- *´¨) ¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·'*Marsh ----------------------------- Marsh Wise Webmaster: -reenactor.Net: <http://www.reenactor.net/> Read my Blog (bore yourself): <http://www.reenactor.net/rnet_admin/marsh/marshblog.html> -1./Infanterie-Regiment 23 <http://www.ir23.org> -Foresthill.US: <http://www.foresthill.us/> -Legio IX Hispana Penna: http://www.reenactor.net/units/legio_ix_penna/ -The Dogs Place <http://www.the-dogs-place.com/> Assistant Webmaster: -VAQ-33 Squadron site: <http://www.reenactor.net/vaq-33/> Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze Yahoo Messenger screen name: sturmkatze Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt "A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself. ~Mark Twain *Last: Hey Dammit! Have you visited the reenactor.Net FORvMS? If not, WHY NOT? Gett your butt over to: <http://www.reenactor.net/forums/index.php> right now! __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3953 (20090321) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Regardless of how you otherwise support/locate the holding tank, consider gluing a layer of closed-cell foam sheet to the tank where it will be contacting a hard surface. If access to the tank is limited, it may be difficult to insert the foam sheet in the proper places after the tank is installed. Harleigh Ewell Cal 31 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:33 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Time to stop your West Marine Whining (Davidand Tom) [Todays Current Sailing Event and Structural issue] I was wondering if there were any Cals in the Howlands landing race yesterday and today.From our view it looked like a slow race over with about 2-6 knots of South Westerly. A slow all day series of tacks trip over. To day, on the other hand, the wind piped up early this morning with white capped wind waves out of the South West. The San Pedro Channel to Catalina looks like about 30-40 knots consistent from here. That's windy for us out of LA area, but you guys from Ventura, Channel Islands regularly sail in these conditions don't you? I have created a wooden carrier to mount my holding tank a head of the water tank located at the V berth. After hours of painstaking mitering oak and clear fir with carriage bolt construction, a friend asked why not just keep the tank off the hull with spray foam from HD? That did not seem like a very seaworthy method to keep the weight of 10 gallons of crap focused on the tanks bottom corners and resting on the hull with some foam between to support. ??? Have I missed something here, or is it some just like to over build cause we can. Mark

Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: > > > I have created a wooden carrier to mount my holding tank a head of the > water tank located at the V berth. After hours of painstaking mitering > oak and clear fir with carriage bolt construction, a friend asked why > not just keep the tank off the hull with spray foam from HD? That did > not seem like a very seaworthy method to keep the weight of 10 gallons > of crap focused on the tanks bottom corners and resting on the hull > with some foam between to support. ??? Have I missed something here, > or is it some just like to over build cause we can. Mark: Think how heavy that tank is when it's full. Imagine a tank full of nasty stuff getting pitched around inside your boat--the bow rising and falling in heavy seas, the tank having to follow its motion. It's easy to hold things in place when the boat is sitting in a nice slip, but it's a lot more challenging when you're at sea. Pick up a 5 gal. can of gas or diesel fuel (which are lighter than water, remember), and try moving it around rapidly. That said, there is a use for foams and squeezable stuff. When we built a plywood holding tank for the local schooner, I couldn't see under it to get an exact fit on the battens we installed to support it. I used some sealer/caulk /with tape under it to prevent adhesion/ to serve as a gap-filler and to support the tank uniformly. It was not for securing the tank, just for filling gaps in the supported area. Securing the tank was done by physical means. Chris Campbell

Fred Haas wrote: > Gents, > This is a list that exists primarily to enhance our enjoyment of our > old boats. That's why we participate in it. If I'm not mistaken, it > was this very subject that drove Roger Jones off the list a few years > ago. Like me, he didn't want to sign in to pick up the latest bitch. > Plenty of that in the rest of life. OK, guys, if you don't want us to gripe about West Marine, don't keep posting these objections to griping that are followed by fulsome praise of WM. The reason this happens is that those of us in the northern latitudes have been unable to sail for several months, so we have no sailing stories to tell. But now spring is on its way and we are starting to get our boats ready. It's like the bear crawling out of hibernation. We emerge, and we encounter marine retailers, and we find things to gripe about. Chris Campbell >

Good morning to all Hope all is well - I am at the stage of tackling one of the larger parts of my project. BTW, I'd like to thank everyone for allowing me to pick your brains, it has made my project a bit easier, especially with the beam issue - I removed it, and took it to a place were a replacement is being built in 316. I'd say the original beam lost about 20% of its original weight to corrosion - half the bottom flange was completely disintegrated! The pics some of you sent were of great help. So here I am again, ready to tackle another problem. I completely stripped everything below the waterline - down to fiberglass. There are about a dozen blisters that need to be fixed - no big deal. Problem is, there are hundreds of small, jagged starlike areas that look as if the original resin during manufacture did not either cure, or did not fully penetrate. I have looked at various solutions to this, have done a bit of reading, etc. One suggextion was to grind the first level of glass away, and butt join a new layer of 10 oz glass, than another layer, overlapping about 6 - 8" The other is to repair blisters, fill porous areas with 3m high strength filler (or equivalent), and apply epoxy barrier cote, then finally, anti foul. I'd like opinions and suggestions from anyone with experience in these areas - thanks in advance to all! Best regards Jeff Owen - '72 Cal 33

fair is fair. you need to take lots of pictures of all you rprojects and thoroughly document them and share with all of us and future generations! Reggie PS. not one of the experienced ones. However, that won't stop me! I expect either method would work and probably outlive the boat. However, filling voids with thickened epoxy wil probably still leave voids. Best repair? grind away voids and layer up. Adequate repair? fill. A possible failing of the grind away method is more difficulty maintaining hull curve. To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: je… [at] yahoo.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:35:24 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Bottom Good morning to all Hope all is well - I am at the stage of tackling one of the larger parts of my project. BTW, I'd like to thank everyone for allowing me to pick your brains, it has made my project a bit easier, especially with the beam issue - I removed it, and took it to a place were a replacement is being built in 316. I'd say the original beam lost about 20% of its original weight to corrosion - half the bottom flange was completely disintegrated! The pics some of you sent were of great help. So here I am again, ready to tackle another problem. I completely stripped everything below the waterline - down to fiberglass. There are about a dozen blisters that need to be fixed - no big deal. Problem is, there are hundreds of small, jagged starlike areas that look as if the original resin during manufacture did not either cure, or did not fully penetrate. I have looked at various solutions to this, have done a bit of reading, etc. One suggextion was to grind the first level of glass away, and butt join a new layer of 10 oz glass, than another layer, overlapping about 6 - 8" The other is to repair blisters, fill porous areas with 3m high strength filler (or equivalent), and apply epoxy barrier cote, then finally, anti foul. I'd like opinions and suggestions from anyone with experience in these areas - thanks in advance to all! Best regards Jeff Owen - '72 Cal 33