Cal25 VHF Antenna

Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris

I had to cut mine and splice in new connectors since the hole in the deck was too small to pass a connector through. It's easy to do, you most likely have coaxial cable... and some of the coaxial connectors are plug and play, but soldering is always best. A handheld radio is nice, not sure if it meets the legal requirement having a fixed radio. Personally- I'd go for both. Also, the handheld radio's are usually only 5w broadcast, where as the fixed radios are something like 25w broadcast I think. So a handheld generally does not have as much range as a fixed radio. From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:42:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull.. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris

You could cut the wire at the connector at the radio. This should allow you to remove the remaining wire all the way to the area under the mast. Unless all extra wire-length was removed, you should then be able to add a new connector at the radio after you re-install the mast and run the cable back to the radio. With the mast down and both ends of the cable accessible, you could use an ohm-meter to check the quality of the cable. If in doubt, this would be the ideal time to replace the cable with high-quality such as the Anchor brand sold at West Marine. Fewer connections are clearly better than more connections, but we do have a splice in ours in the hanging locker, several feet from the base of the mast. Yes, we always lose 2" of wire when we cut it there and later re-connect, but we allowed about 18" of extra wire, so we could go through the process several times. Assuming equal quality, you should expect better transmission and reception with the fixed antenna at the mast-head. Someday, it may matter. However, if you were to lose your rig, the hand-held will be the back-up. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Whirled Peas<mailto:wh… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna I had to cut mine and splice in new connectors since the hole in the deck was too small to pass a connector through. It's easy to do, you most likely have coaxial cable... and some of the coaxial connectors are plug and play, but soldering is always best. A handheld radio is nice, not sure if it meets the legal requirement having a fixed radio. Personally- I'd go for both. Also, the handheld radio's are usually only 5w broadcast, where as the fixed radios are something like 25w broadcast I think. So a handheld generally does not have as much range as a fixed radio. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:42:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris

Unless you have done it before and know it isn't so, I'd expect to find a connector inside the mast. That's the way mine was rigged. I'd be prepared to cut the cable there when you drop the mast. If there is a connector there, good. If not, cut the cable. Then you can test the cable, or better, just replace it anyway, and install a connector to make it easier the next time. An ohmmeter will only give you a gross check of the cable. Depending on your antenna, you may see a short or an open if you check from the radio. The ffiberglass whips will generally give an open; the stainless whips with the coil in a stainless can at the base will give a short due to the matching circuitry. A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the cable with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 and should be replaced. In this case, the higher the SWR, the better. Al 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris

Hi, Chris. Greetings from a Chesapeake CAL 25er. Just finished getting a very sore rear end in a long NOOD regatta. I believe we have exchanged mails in the past. When the mast is lifted (by the way we have a technique using the neighboring boats), you will find connectors inside the mast base. Should be some spare length of cable in there as well. I have taken to putting a hole in the mast near the base and a hole in the deck, bringing the wires through, and using waterproof connectors externally since I don't like connections I can't get to, and holes in the deck I cannot get to. The mast needs only be lifted a few inches to expose the connectors. I suppose you will find a lot of old tape around the connectors that will be hard to remove. You also want to make sure that you put a small mouse hole at the base of the mast to make sure the bottom drains. There will always be some leakage to the inside, and you don't want water build-up in there. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:42 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

As far as I know, there is no requirement for a VHF radio of any sort on a 25 ft. recreational vessel. Certainly, a 25W radio with a masthead antenna would have greater range than a handheld. I have a fixed unit in the cabin with a remote mic that I can use in the cockpit. Harleigh Ewell Cal 31 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Whirled Peas Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 3:18 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna I had to cut mine and splice in new connectors since the hole in the deck was too small to pass a connector through. It's easy to do, you most likely have coaxial cable... and some of the coaxial connectors are plug and play, but soldering is always best. A handheld radio is nice, not sure if it meets the legal requirement having a fixed radio. Personally- I'd go for both. Also, the handheld radio's are usually only 5w broadcast, where as the fixed radios are something like 25w broadcast I think. So a handheld generally does not have as much range as a fixed radio. _____ From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:42:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris

Al, You got that backwards. A low SWR is what you are looking for. To make this real simple,SWR is a ratio related to the forward power and the reflected power. Power is reflected back to the radio due to bad cable or bad antenna. An SWR of 1:1 means no power is reflected back. 2:1 means 2X as much power reflected. A lot of reflected power could dammage a transmitter, but most newer ones have circuits that minimize this. As Al said, a real good check is with a proper SWR meter. Even better, find someone (Maybe a Ham radio operator) with an antenna analyzer. This will give a better "look" at what is happening. I have a standing offer at my marina, I'll check anyone's radio for free. Carl AB1DD Cal 34III Nauta On 4/27/09, Al Waschka <aw… [at] bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > > . A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the cable > with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 > and should be replaced. In this case, the higher the SWR, the better. > > Al > > 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" > 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" > > --- On *Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com>* wrote: > > From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM > > Hello All > > I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not > sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in > the hull. > > Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? > > The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along > the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large > enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place > to run the cable then install the ends? > > This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, > I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? > > If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable > through the deck? > > Thanks for the advice! > > Chris > > > -- Carl

When I got this message from the list, it didn't have my original reply, which was that I don't believe there is a legal requirement for a fixed VHF radio on a 25 ft. recreational vessel. Harleigh Ewell Cal 31 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harleigh Ewell Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:57 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna I had to cut mine and splice in new connectors since the hole in the deck was too small to pass a connector through. It's easy to do, you most likely have coaxial cable... and some of the coaxial connectors are plug and play, but soldering is always best. A handheld radio is nice, not sure if it meets the legal requirement having a fixed radio. Personally- I'd go for both. Also, the handheld radio's are usually only 5w broadcast, where as the fixed radios are something like 25w broadcast I think. So a handheld generally does not have as much range as a fixed radio. _____ From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:42:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris

Actually, if you read my post carefully, you'll see I'm right. I said the SWR should be high with the antenna disconnected. With the antenna disconnected, the reflection at the antenna connector should be 100%. The corresponding SWR should be infinite. Losses in the coax cable work to reduce the reflected power sensed by the SWR bridge and lower the SWR. Therefore, with the antenna DISCONNECTED, the SWR should be high, unless cable losses (bad) work to lower the SWR. Al --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Carl <sa… [at] gmail.com> wrote: From: Carl <sa… [at] gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 5:37 AM Al, You got that backwards. A low SWR is what you are looking for. To make this real simple,SWR is a ratio related to the forward power and the reflected power. Power is reflected back to the radio due to bad cable or bad antenna. An SWR of 1:1 means no power is reflected back. 2:1 means 2X as much power reflected. A lot of reflected power could dammage a transmitter, but most newer ones have circuits that minimize this. As Al said, a real good check is with a proper SWR meter. Even better, find someone (Maybe a Ham radio operator) with an antenna analyzer. This will give a better "look" at what is happening. I have a standing offer at my marina, I'll check anyone's radio for free. Carl AB1DD Cal 34III Nauta On 4/27/09, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: . A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the cable with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 and should be replaced. In this case, the higher the SWR, the better. Al 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> wrote: From: Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris -- Carl

And as long as we are educating each other, the standing wave ratio (SWR) is not the same as the reflected power. A 2:1 SWR means the maximum voltage (or current) in the standing wave on the feedline is twice the minimum. The SWR is related to the reflection coefficient by an equation which I'll not try to repeat here. Further, conservation of energy would indicate that the antenna can not reflect twice as much power back to the transmitter as was originally sent out. Trust me, I'm an RF engineer..... Al --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Carl <sa… [at] gmail.com> wrote: From: Carl <sa… [at] gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 5:37 AM Al, You got that backwards. A low SWR is what you are looking for. To make this real simple,SWR is a ratio related to the forward power and the reflected power. Power is reflected back to the radio due to bad cable or bad antenna. An SWR of 1:1 means no power is reflected back. 2:1 means 2X as much power reflected. A lot of reflected power could dammage a transmitter, but most newer ones have circuits that minimize this. As Al said, a real good check is with a proper SWR meter. Even better, find someone (Maybe a Ham radio operator) with an antenna analyzer. This will give a better "look" at what is happening. I have a standing offer at my marina, I'll check anyone's radio for free. Carl AB1DD Cal 34III Nauta On 4/27/09, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: . A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the cable with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 and should be replaced. In this case, the higher the SWR, the better. Al 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> wrote: From: Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris -- Carl

Chris Martin wrote: > > > > > If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the > cable through the deck? > I'll answer this part. My other boat has a wooden mast and so the "connector inside the mast" option won't work. The mast gets stepped and unstepped for winter storage every year, so disconnecting the masthead VHF antenna coax easily is important. I bought a threaded pass-through connector. It fits through a hole in the deck. It has threaded nuts on the inside and outside to hold it. I made a wooden ring to fit inside and to increase the effective deck thickness for sturdiness reasons. One standard VHF antenna cable connector (PL-259?) screws on each end of it. When the mast comes down, I unscrew the outside connector. The inside one stays connected all the time. I've always worried about the SWR because of this pass-through device and the right-angle adapter that's right underneath it. The more disruptions in your coax, the worse the SWR and the less radiated power. But I figure having an antenna at masthead is better than not. Chris Campbell

Drill the overhead and beam under the mast to pass just the coax cable (1/4" or so). Then put a connector on the top side with a 2 to 3 foot service loop to facilitate connecting and disconnecting. I also put a connector on the inside just far enough away to reach the port chainplate which has a ground connection on it. I mounted a lightning arrestor on the chainplate and ran a cable from there to the radio, which I mounted on the shelf adjacent to the dinette. Minimizing the number of connectors is a good thing, but with good coax and a 25 watt radio you should be great. The added height of the antenna will more than make up for the loss of the connectors. The problem at these frequencies is generally line of sight distance between stations, not the amount of power, at least not the amount you would loose with an extra connctor or two. By all means, use good quality solderable connectors. If you don't have the skills to solder them in, find a friend who does. I find the solder-free ones to be corrosion prone and unreliable. Al --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 1:03 PM Chris Martin wrote: If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? I'll answer this part. My other boat has a wooden mast and so the "connector inside the mast" option won't work. The mast gets stepped and unstepped for winter storage every year, so disconnecting the masthead VHF antenna coax easily is important. I bought a threaded pass-through connector. It fits through a hole in the deck. It has threaded nuts on the inside and outside to hold it. I made a wooden ring to fit inside and to increase the effective deck thickness for sturdiness reasons. One standard VHF antenna cable connector (PL-259?) screws on each end of it. When the mast comes down, I unscrew the outside connector. The inside one stays connected all the time. I've always worried about the SWR because of this pass-through device and the right-angle adapter that's right underneath it. The more disruptions in your coax, the worse the SWR and the less radiated power. But I figure having an antenna at masthead is better than not. Chris Campbell

How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? Some PO of our little boat installed a vhf antenna at the masthead, which was probably pretty cool, but when we got the boat there was just a few inches of frayed coaxial hanging down that was being used creatively to hold decorations, and every time the boat moves, the remaining wire inside the mast bangs around in there. I hate that - I keep my halyards off the mast religiously, but am still a little noisy, and I'm sure that wires banging into the mast from the inside can't be healthy either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to just remove the antenna altogether when we get around to lowering the mast and replace it with the masthead light we should have up there [which will still need at least one wire]. From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:23:21 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hi, Chris. Greetings from a Chesapeake CAL 25er. Just finished getting a very sore rear end in a long NOOD regatta. I believe we have exchanged mails in the past. When the mast is lifted (by the way we have a technique using the neighboring boats), you will find connectors inside the mast base. Should be some spare length of cable in there as well. I have taken to putting a hole in the mast near the base and a hole in the deck, bringing the wires through, and using waterproof connectors externally since I don't like connections I can't get to, and holes in the deck I cannot get to. The mast needs only be lifted a few inches to expose the connectors. I suppose you will find a lot of old tape around the connectors that will be hard to remove. You also want to make sure that you put a small mouse hole at the base of the mast to make sure the bottom drains. There will always be some leakage to the inside, and you don't want water build-up in there. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:42 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

My boat had pieces of foam rolled up and stuffed in there about each 1/3 of the way from the top to the bottom. --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Lord Nougat <lo… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Lord Nougat <lo… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 4:03 PM How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? Some PO of our little boat installed a vhf antenna at the masthead, which was probably pretty cool, but when we got the boat there was just a few inches of frayed coaxial hanging down that was being used creatively to hold decorations, and every time the boat moves, the remaining wire inside the mast bangs around in there. I hate that - I keep my halyards off the mast religiously, but am still a little noisy, and I'm sure that wires banging into the mast from the inside can't be healthy either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to just remove the antenna altogether when we get around to lowering the mast and replace it with the masthead light we should have up there [which will still need at least one wire]. From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:23:21 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hi, Chris. Greetings from a Chesapeake CAL 25er. Just finished getting a very sore rear end in a long NOOD regatta. I believe we have exchanged mails in the past. When the mast is lifted (by the way we have a technique using the neighboring boats), you will find connectors inside the mast base. Should be some spare length of cable in there as well. I have taken to putting a hole in the mast near the base and a hole in the deck, bringing the wires through, and using waterproof connectors externally since I don't like connections I can't get to, and holes in the deck I cannot get to. The mast needs only be lifted a few inches to expose the connectors. I suppose you will find a lot of old tape around the connectors that will be hard to remove. You also want to make sure that you put a small mouse hole at the base of the mast to make sure the bottom drains. There will always be some leakage to the inside, and you don't want water build-up in there. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:42 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Keeping antenna wires from banging around in the mast; The technique I came up with is to use several heavy duty zip ties. Every 2 or 3 feet, I put 3 zip ties firmly on the cable in a "Y" configuration... and don't cut the tails. Let the tails be the springs that keep the cable positioned in the middle. It works great, it's easy to pull into the mast, and I think it prevents corrosion problems by not collecting water next to the aluminum, which the foam technique seems to do. Zip tie cable flopper stoppers. Enjoy! From: Lord Nougat <lo… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:03:01 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? Some PO of our little boat installed a vhf antenna at the masthead, which was probably pretty cool, but when we got the boat there was just a few inches of frayed coaxial hanging down that was being used creatively to hold decorations, and every time the boat moves, the remaining wire inside the mast bangs around in there. I hate that - I keep my halyards off the mast religiously, but am still a little noisy, and I'm sure that wires banging into the mast from the inside can't be healthy either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to just remove the antenna altogether when we get around to lowering the mast and replace it with the masthead light we should have up there [which will still need at least one wire]. From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:23:21 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hi, Chris. Greetings from a Chesapeake CAL 25er. Just finished getting a very sore rear end in a long NOOD regatta. I believe we have exchanged mails in the past. When the mast is lifted (by the way we have a technique using the neighboring boats), you will find connectors inside the mast base. Should be some spare length of cable in there as well. I have taken to putting a hole in the mast near the base and a hole in the deck, bringing the wires through, and using waterproof connectors externally since I don't like connections I can't get to, and holes in the deck I cannot get to. The mast needs only be lifted a few inches to expose the connectors. I suppose you will find a lot of old tape around the connectors that will be hard to remove. You also want to make sure that you put a small mouse hole at the base of the mast to make sure the bottom drains. There will always be some leakage to the inside, and you don't want water build-up in there. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:42 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps..com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

I wrote the following, and it appears on the Cal40.com website: In-mast wiring PVC and Pop-rivets. Encase your mast wires in PVC tubing. The pop-rivet trick is really quite simple. First decide what path the conduit should take up the side or front of the mast. Mine on the '40 starts out on the port side at the bottom because that was the most convenient place for the wires to exit, works around to the front for the deck light / steaming light and then finally exits somewhat off to port again for the windex and antenna wires at the top of the mast. Now, every 3'-4' along this path drill two holes (horizontal to each other if the mast were stepped) the size of the pop-rivet you will be using. I understand that monel rivets are the best. The conduit (3/4" or 1" pvc) is laid out outside of the mast, the pieces glued together as needed, and marked where each wire should exit. Keeping the wiring simple really helps, such as a combination deck light and steaming light. Using a "fish-tape, the conduit is pre-loaded with tracer-lines for each of the wires emerging from the holes and taped to the mast. The conduit is then inserted into the mast, and a bent coat-hanger can be used to extract the various tracer lines at the appropriate place on the mast. Then, to secure the conduit to the mast, insert a bent coat-hanger into one of the pop-rivet holes. Ensnare the conduit, and draw it up next to the other hole. While holding it there, drill into the conduit with that same size drill bit as you used to drill the pairs of holes in the mast. Then insert the pop-rivet, and fasten the conduit to the mast. Repeat this process at each set of holes as you work your way up the mast. Finally, use the tracer lines to pull your wires up through the mast and out at the appropriate place. Using the tracer lines may save you from accidentally drilling through a wire while installing the conduit. The final step is to fill each of the "other" holes with a pop-rivet. While you're at it, run your halyards internal. It's easy. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Whirled Peas<mailto:wh… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Keeping antenna wires from banging around in the mast; The technique I came up with is to use several heavy duty zip ties. Every 2 or 3 feet, I put 3 zip ties firmly on the cable in a "Y" configuration... and don't cut the tails. Let the tails be the springs that keep the cable positioned in the middle. It works great, it's easy to pull into the mast, and I think it prevents corrosion problems by not collecting water next to the aluminum, which the foam technique seems to do. Zip tie cable flopper stoppers. Enjoy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Lord Nougat <lo… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:03:01 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? Some PO of our little boat installed a vhf antenna at the masthead, which was probably pretty cool, but when we got the boat there was just a few inches of frayed coaxial hanging down that was being used creatively to hold decorations, and every time the boat moves, the remaining wire inside the mast bangs around in there. I hate that - I keep my halyards off the mast religiously, but am still a little noisy, and I'm sure that wires banging into the mast from the inside can't be healthy either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to just remove the antenna altogether when we get around to lowering the mast and replace it with the masthead light we should have up there [which will still need at least one wire]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com<http://bah.com/>> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://ps.com/> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:23:21 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hi, Chris. Greetings from a Chesapeake CAL 25er. Just finished getting a very sore rear end in a long NOOD regatta. I believe we have exchanged mails in the past. When the mast is lifted (by the way we have a technique using the neighboring boats), you will find connectors inside the mast base. Should be some spare length of cable in there as well. I have taken to putting a hole in the mast near the base and a hole in the deck, bringing the wires through, and using waterproof connectors externally since I don't like connections I can't get to, and holes in the deck I cannot get to. The mast needs only be lifted a few inches to expose the connectors. I suppose you will find a lot of old tape around the connectors that will be hard to remove. You also want to make sure that you put a small mouse hole at the base of the mast to make sure the bottom drains. There will always be some leakage to the inside, and you don't want water build-up in there. Cheers Charlie -----Original Message----- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:42 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Basic theory from school, SWR of 1 indicates a perfect impediance match and termination of a transmission line. As the SWR increases, this is an indication of either or all, terminations, cable or antenna are mismatched. The mismatch creates a reverse energy wave ( reflection) that increases the load on the output transistors of the transmitter and this reflected energy is lost from being transmitted. You can not check a cable by itself without a proper termination, if it is a 75 ohm cable the end must be terminated with a 75 ohm impediance, 50ohm, 50ohm etc... Antenna tuners, tuning should be done at the antenna, the final termination of the signal. It is unfortunate that radio manufactures do not include an output device current meter on the radios. You would tune the antenna for minimum current, that indicates the best impediance match and efficiency. In some cases changing the length of the wire whip can improve the SWR. ERK Carl wrote: > > > Al, > You got that backwards. A low SWR is what you are looking for. To make > this real simple,SWR is a ratio related to the forward power and the > reflected power. Power is reflected back to the radio due to bad cable > or bad antenna. An SWR of 1:1 means no power is reflected back. 2:1 > means 2X as much power reflected. A lot of reflected power could > dammage a transmitter, but most newer ones have circuits that minimize > this. As Al said, a real good check is with a proper SWR meter. Even > better, find someone (Maybe a Ham radio operator) with an antenna > analyzer. This will give a better "look" at what is happening. I have > a standing offer at my marina, I'll check anyone's radio for free. > > Carl > AB1DD > Cal 34III > Nauta > > > > On 4/27/09, Al Waschka <aw… [at] bellsouth.net > <mailto:aw… [at] bellsouth.net>> wrote: > > > > . A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the > cable with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower > SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 and should be replaced. In this case, the higher > the SWR, the better. > > Al > > 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" > 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" > > --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com > <mailto:no… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: > > From: Chris Martin <no… [at] yahoo.com > <mailto:no… [at] yahoo.com>> > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM > > Hello All > > I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the > beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna > as there is no connector in the hull. > > Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out > later? > > The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port > bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in > the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the > ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable > then install the ends? > > This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the > Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a > proper fixed radio? > > If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to > pass the cable through the deck? > > Thanks for the advice! > > Chris > > > > > -- > Carl >

See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Anyone who wishes to do so can take my suggestion and use it to test coax. It is a generally accepted way to check the loss of a feedline without expensive test equipment. If you don't believe me, don't do it this way. Al --- On Tue, 4/28/09, roline <ro… [at] charter.net> wrote: From: roline <ro… [at] charter.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 8:09 PM Basic theory from school, SWR of 1 indicates a perfect impediance match and termination of a transmission line. As the SWR increases, this is an indication of either or all, terminations, cable or antenna are mismatched. The mismatch creates a reverse energy wave ( reflection) that increases the load on the output transistors of the transmitter and this reflected energy is lost from being transmitted. All of the above is mostly true. How true it is depends on the design of the output amplifier in the radio. In some cases, the reflected energy is again reflected at the amplifier and returned to the antenna where a fraction of it is radiated and a fraction is reflected. And the process goes on and on and on..... You can not check a cable by itself without a proper termination, if it is a 75 ohm cable the end must be terminated with a 75 ohm impediance, 50ohm, 50ohm etc... This is not true. The problem with basic theory is that it is basic. As I explained previously, the reflection from an open (or short) at the antenna end of the cable is 100%. In theory, this would result in an infinite SWR. Note that the SWR bridge does not reallly measure SWR. It measures forward and reflected power, the ratio of which (neglecting line losses) is the reflection coefficient, gamma. SWR is calculated from gamma by the equation S=(1+|G|)/(1-|G!|). With a lossy coaxial line, the reflected power from the open or short is reduced by the losses and results in the bridge reading a lower reflected power. This results in a lower gamma, and therefore a lower SWR. It is theoretically possible to calculate the expected SWR from an open or short length of coax knowing the type of coax and the length. If the measured SWR is less, the coax is excessively lossy and should be replaced. Antenna tuners, tuning should be done at the antenna, the final termination of the signal. This is true, but only of minimal effect for a reasonably matched antenna such as the ones we use for VHF. Losses increase in a feedline when the SWR is high. If the tuner is at the radio, excess losses will result, but they are generally acceptable unless the SWR is REALLY high which it is, for example, when tuning a backstay on HF. That is why a backstay tuner should be placed at the base of the backstay and plain wire, not coax, should be run to the backstay above the insulator if one is used. It is unfortunate that radio manufactures do not include an output device current meter on the radios. True. You would tune the antenna for minimum current, that indicates the best impediance match and efficiency. Not true. The value of the current at a point on the transmission line varies with the distance from the load. Under mismatch conditions, it is possible to have a lower current than would be measured for a matched load. In some cases changing the length of the wire whip can improve the SWR. True. ERK Carl wrote: Al, You got that backwards. A low SWR is what you are looking for. To make this real simple,SWR is a ratio related to the forward power and the reflected power. Power is reflected back to the radio due to bad cable or bad antenna. An SWR of 1:1 means no power is reflected back. 2:1 means 2X as much power reflected. A lot of reflected power could dammage a transmitter, but most newer ones have circuits that minimize this. As Al said, a real good check is with a proper SWR meter. Even better, find someone (Maybe a Ham radio operator) with an antenna analyzer. This will give a better "look" at what is happening. I have a standing offer at my marina, I'll check anyone's radio for free. Carl AB1DD Cal 34III Nauta On 4/27/09, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: . A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the cable with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 and should be replaced. In this case, the higher the SWR, the better. Al 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> wrote: From: Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris -- Carl

Al Waschka wrote: > > > See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to > clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering > details. > Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell > > >

Thank you for this most lucid explanation. I plan on finding a tester and checking my antennae the next time I visit the boat! From each of the emails on this subject I have learned something and from the discussion of the shore power polarity system I have finally had explained to me what I have only partially understood for over 22 years (oops, 23 years this February 1st!) I will repeat that this list is incredible as said by David Lyons. I have also completely stopped using Fram filters in all of my vehicles including my Cal, my Dodge, and my Scion. Joe Demers -- are you familiar with K&N racing oil filters? Are they worth the double price over Bosch? Thanks everyone for your discussions and information!! Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" A true Cal sailboat! "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: roline <ro… [at] charter.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Basic theory from school, SWR of 1 indicates a perfect impediance match and termination of a transmission line. As the SWR increases, this is an indication of either or all, terminations, cable or antenna are mismatched. The mismatch creates a reverse energy wave ( reflection) that increases the load on the output transistors of the transmitter and this reflected energy is lost from being transmitted. You can not check a cable by itself without a proper termination, if it is a 75 ohm cable the end must be terminated with a 75 ohm impediance, 50ohm, 50ohm etc... Antenna tuners, tuning should be done at the antenna, the final termination of the signal. It is unfortunate that radio manufactures do not include an output device current meter on the radios. You would tune the antenna for minimum current, that indicates the best impediance match and efficiency. In some cases changing the length of the wire whip can improve the SWR. ERK Carl wrote: Al, You got that backwards. A low SWR is what you are looking for. To make this real simple,SWR is a ratio related to the forward power and the reflected power. Power is reflected back to the radio due to bad cable or bad antenna. An SWR of 1:1 means no power is reflected back. 2:1 means 2X as much power reflected. A lot of reflected power could dammage a transmitter, but most newer ones have circuits that minimize this. As Al said, a real good check is with a proper SWR meter. Even better, find someone (Maybe a Ham radio operator) with an antenna analyzer. This will give a better "look" at what is happening. I have a standing offer at my marina, I'll check anyone's radio for free. Carl AB1DD Cal 34III Nauta On 4/27/09, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: . A better way to test the cable is to measure the SWR of the cable with no antenna connected. A lossy cable will give a lower SWR, 3 or 4 to 1 and should be replaced. In this case, the higher the SWR, the better. Al 1974 Cal-25 #1693, "Sweet Mary" 1985 Cal-33/2 #0085, "Short Wave" --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> wrote: From: Chris Martin <notcmartin@yahoo. com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 2:42 PM Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris -- Carl

Hi All: When I rewired my mast 8 years ago I secured all of the wires/cable together with large wire ties about every three feet as I pulled everything up the mast. I left the tails on the ties and have not heard a wire bang in side the mast yet. Les Hester 3-29#1005 Bay Breeze Swan Creek, Md. From: Lord Nougat To: Cal Boats Sent: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:03:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? Some PO of our little boat installed a vhf antenna at the masthead, which was probably pretty cool, but when we got the boat there was just a few inches of frayed coaxial hanging down that was being used creatively to hold decorations, and every time the boat moves, the remaining wire inside the mast bangs around in there. I hate that - I keep my halyards off the mast religiously, but am still a little noisy, and I'm sure that wires banging into the mast from the inside can't be healthy either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to just remove the antenna altogether when we get around to lowering the mast and replace it with the masthead light we should have up there [which will still need at least one wire]. From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:23:21 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hi, Chris. Greetings from a Chesapeake CAL 25er. Just finished getting a very sore rear end in a long NOOD regatta. I believe we have exchanged mails in the past. When the mast is lifted (by the way we have a technique using the neighboring boats), you will find connectors inside the mast base. Should be some spare length of cable in there as well. I have taken to putting a hole in the mast near the base and a hole in the deck, bringing the wires through, and using waterproof connectors externally since I don't like connections I can't get to, and holes in the deck I cannot get to. The mast needs only be lifted a few inches to expose the connectors. I suppose you will find a lot of old tape around the connectors that will be hard to remove. You also want to make sure that you put a small mouse hole at the base of the mast to make sure the bottom drains. There will always be some leakage to the inside, and you don't want water build-up in there. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:42 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna Hello All I am planning to drop the mast on my Cal25 to replace the beam. I am not sure how to properly disconnect the vhf antenna as there is no connector in the hull. Should I expect to cut the existing wire then figure it out later? The existing cable runs from the radio, through the port bulkhead, along the beam then up through the mast. The hole in the bulkhead is just large enough for the cable, no way the ends could fit through. Is it common place to run the cable then install the ends? This got me thinking about having a fixed radio. I sail on the Chesapeake, I a good hand held sufficient or so I need a proper fixed radio? If I go the fixed route, what is the recommended method to pass the cable through the deck? Thanks for the advice! Chris ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Al Waschka <awaschka@...> wrote: > > My boat had pieces of foam rolled up and stuffed in there about each 1/3 of the way from the top to the bottom. > > --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Lord Nougat <lord_nougat@...> wrote: > > From: Lord Nougat <lord_nougat@...> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 4:03 PM > > > > How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? The best way is to pop rivet a PVC tube inside the mast to carry the wire, including the masthead light wire, etc. With internal halyards it's even more important. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

we carry this one @$89.00 [http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/504/862/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5sYWZheWV0dGVyYWRpby5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL3Byb2R1Y3RzL2FydF8zLmpwZw====.jpg] I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: [http://secure.sciencecompany.com/images/nc2978n.gif] Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. Just guessing. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:05 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? we carry this one @$89.00 I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

Charlie, Unfortunately, most of the meters I see online assume I know something because they provide very little in the way of information. Most don't talk about Mhz but rather 52 ohms. I copied this from one device and it is more info than any other meter has provided. The frequency range seems to support your theory. But I'm still stumped. Product Description Specifications: * Impedance: 52 ohms * SWR: 1:1-1:3 * Accuracy: +-5% * Frequency Range: 1.7-30MHz * SO-239 UHF Type Connectors This unit was $20 at a CB shop/site. I guess it stands to reason that if you can afford a boat with a radio you should be happy to pay 3 to 4 times more for the meeter. Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:20:31 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. Just guessing. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:05 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? we carry this one @$89.00 I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: Refractometer, CTX-2" src="http://secure.sciencecompany.com/images/nc2978n.gif" width=180> Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement > that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. > Just guessing. Is the CB band that low? I've got an old Ray Jefferson RDF that I use as an FM radio on the Cal 20, and I thought the CB band was on the same frequency scale as the VHF-FM marine band and the NOAA weather band. But I haven't looked since last fall and my eyes were clouded by tears as another sailing season ended. Chris Campbell >

The PVC tube adds a bit of weight... way up high which multiplies the effect. Also I wouldn't want to drill any holes in my mast if it's avoidable. Sounds like alot of work too. Heavy duty zip ties arranged in a "Y" formation every 3 feet are lite weight, cheap, easy, quick, no drilling, no corrossion, and work perfect to stop the cable from slapping around. From: mtkennedy1 <mt… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:33:54 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal25 VHF Antenna --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Al Waschka <awaschka@.. .> wrote: > > My boat had pieces of foam rolled up and stuffed in there about each 1/3 of the way from the top to the bottom. > > --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Lord Nougat <lord_nougat@ ...> wrote: > > From: Lord Nougat <lord_nougat@ ...> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 4:03 PM > > > > How do you guys keep that antenna wire from banging around inside the mast? The best way is to pop rivet a PVC tube inside the mast to carry the wire, including the masthead light wire, etc. With internal halyards it's even more important. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Hi, Wayne. Note the frequency range on this device is high LF and the HF band. This is indeed where CB radios live. I'm sure this meter would not be accurate for marine VHF. The RF signal (actually all oscillating signals) see a different impedance at different frequencies due to the "reactive" load. The load actually changes with frequency due to capacitance and inductance. (Big words are neat.) Antennas are "tuned" to be most efficient (VSWR is a measure of efficiency in terms of power actually delivered to the load) at certain frequencies. Length (or effective length) is part of this equation (there are many others). You may notice that your typical VHF antenna is a couple feet long for quarter wave, whereas an HF (or CB) antenna is up to 10 times longer. Lower frequency, longer wavelength, bigger antenna. This why in the biz, RF is often described as black magic. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:58 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? Charlie, Unfortunately, most of the meters I see online assume I know something because they provide very little in the way of information. Most don't talk about Mhz but rather 52 ohms. I copied this from one device and it is more info than any other meter has provided. The frequency range seems to support your theory. But I'm still stumped. Product Description Specifications: * Impedance: 52 ohms * SWR: 1:1-1:3 * Accuracy: +-5% * Frequency Range: 1.7-30MHz * SO-239 UHF Type Connectors This unit was $20 at a CB shop/site. I guess it stands to reason that if you can afford a boat with a radio you should be happy to pay 3 to 4 times more for the meeter. Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:20:31 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. Just guessing. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:05 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? we carry this one @$89.00 <http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/504/862/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5sYWZheWV0dG VyYWRpby5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL3Byb2R1Y3RzL2FydF8zLmpwZw====.jpg> I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: Antifreeze / Coolant <SPAN id=Refractometer, CTX-2" src="http://secure.sciencecompany.com/images/nc2978n.gif" width=180> Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

Charlie, In an effort to eschew obfuscation are you trying to tell me I need the expensive meter? Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:24:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) Hi, Wayne. Note the frequency range on this device is high LF and the HF band. This is indeed where CB radios live. I'm sure this meter would not be accurate for marine VHF. The RF signal (actually all oscillating signals) see a different impedance at different frequencies due to the "reactive" load. The load actually changes with frequency due to capacitance and inductance. (Big words are neat.) Antennas are "tuned" to be most efficient (VSWR is a measure of efficiency in terms of power actually delivered to the load) at certain frequencies. Length (or effective length) is part of this equation (there are many others). You may notice that your typical VHF antenna is a couple feet long for quarter wave, whereas an HF (or CB) antenna is up to 10 times longer. Lower frequency, longer wavelength, bigger antenna. This why in the biz, RF is often described as black magic. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:58 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? Charlie, Unfortunately, most of the meters I see online assume I know something because they provide very little in the way of information. Most don't talk about Mhz but rather 52 ohms. I copied this from one device and it is more info than any other meter has provided. The frequency range seems to support your theory. But I'm still stumped. Product Description Specifications: * Impedance: 52 ohms * SWR: 1:1-1:3 * Accuracy: +-5% * Frequency Range: 1.7-30MHz * SO-239 UHF Type Connectors This unit was $20 at a CB shop/site. I guess it stands to reason that if you can afford a boat with a radio you should be happy to pay 3 to 4 times more for the meeter. Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:20:31 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. Just guessing. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:05 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? we carry this one @$89.00 I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: Refractometer, CTX-2" src="http:// secure.scienceco mpany.com/ images/nc2978n. gif" width=180> Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

Yep. Cheers Charlie P.S. they can be less than $100. Looks like the one Timmo sent a picture of. Must say "VHF" somewhere it its literature. Either that, or... If you are good with electronics, soldering, and schematics, I've seen designs that could be built for less than $10. Bzzzzztttt..... Pooooffff! I just love the smell of burning phenolic. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:51 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) Charlie, In an effort to eschew obfuscation are you trying to tell me I need the expensive meter? Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:24:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) Hi, Wayne. Note the frequency range on this device is high LF and the HF band. This is indeed where CB radios live. I'm sure this meter would not be accurate for marine VHF. The RF signal (actually all oscillating signals) see a different impedance at different frequencies due to the "reactive" load. The load actually changes with frequency due to capacitance and inductance. (Big words are neat.) Antennas are "tuned" to be most efficient (VSWR is a measure of efficiency in terms of power actually delivered to the load) at certain frequencies. Length (or effective length) is part of this equation (there are many others). You may notice that your typical VHF antenna is a couple feet long for quarter wave, whereas an HF (or CB) antenna is up to 10 times longer. Lower frequency, longer wavelength, bigger antenna. This why in the biz, RF is often described as black magic. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com <http://ps.com/> [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com <http://s.com/> ] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:58 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? Charlie, Unfortunately, most of the meters I see online assume I know something because they provide very little in the way of information. Most don't talk about Mhz but rather 52 ohms. I copied this from one device and it is more info than any other meter has provided. The frequency range seems to support your theory. But I'm still stumped. Product Description Specifications: * Impedance: 52 ohms * SWR: 1:1-1:3 * Accuracy: +-5% * Frequency Range: 1.7-30MHz * SO-239 UHF Type Connectors This unit was $20 at a CB shop/site. I guess it stands to reason that if you can afford a boat with a radio you should be happy to pay 3 to 4 times more for the meeter. Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com <http://bah.com/> > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:20:31 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. Just guessing. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com <http://ch2m.com/> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:05 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? we carry this one @$89.00 <http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/504/862/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5sYWZheWV0dG VyYWRpby5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL3Byb2R1Y3RzL2FydF8zLmpwZw====.jpg> I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: Antifreeze / Coolant <SPAN id=Refractometer, CTX-2" src="http:// secure.scienceco mpany.com/ images/nc2978n. gif" width=180> Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com <http://nternet.com/> > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell

[outbind://77-00000000EBCDF69AD202CD48837415ABB1C681E7641F2000/ATT-0-6701FD272346D511A0DCBC13E0000000-image001.gif] I'll keep looking for the manual.. but mine works on my VHF, at least I get a reading I buy into. [http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/8/504/862/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5sYWZheWV0dGVyYWRpby5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL3Byb2R1Y3RzL2FydF8zLmpwZw====.jpg] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:46 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) .

Oh sure, they could be built for less than $10 but if I did it the scrap and rework would be more like $200. I thnk I better just buy one if I want one. From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:45:40 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) Yep. Cheers Charlie P.S. they can be less than $100. Looks like the one Timmo sent a picture of. Must say "VHF" somewhere it its literature. Either that, or... If you are good with electronics, soldering, and schematics, I've seen designs that could be built for less than $10. Bzzzzztttt.. ... Pooooffff! I just love the smell of burning phenolic. From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:51 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) Charlie, In an effort to eschew obfuscation are you trying to tell me I need the expensive meter? Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:24:22 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cheap SWR meters? (Wayne) Hi, Wayne. Note the frequency range on this device is high LF and the HF band. This is indeed where CB radios live. I'm sure this meter would not be accurate for marine VHF. The RF signal (actually all oscillating signals) see a different impedance at different frequencies due to the "reactive" load. The load actually changes with frequency due to capacitance and inductance. (Big words are neat.) Antennas are "tuned" to be most efficient (VSWR is a measure of efficiency in terms of power actually delivered to the load) at certain frequencies. Length (or effective length) is part of this equation (there are many others). You may notice that your typical VHF antenna is a couple feet long for quarter wave, whereas an HF (or CB) antenna is up to 10 times longer. Lower frequency, longer wavelength, bigger antenna. This why in the biz, RF is often described as black magic. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:58 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? Charlie, Unfortunately, most of the meters I see online assume I know something because they provide very little in the way of information. Most don't talk about Mhz but rather 52 ohms. I copied this from one device and it is more info than any other meter has provided. The frequency range seems to support your theory. But I'm still stumped. Product Description Specifications: * Impedance: 52 ohms * SWR: 1:1-1:3 * Accuracy: +-5% * Frequency Range: 1.7-30MHz * SO-239 UHF Type Connectors This unit was $20 at a CB shop/site. I guess it stands to reason that if you can afford a boat with a radio you should be happy to pay 3 to 4 times more for the meeter. Regards, Wayne From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@ bah.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:20:31 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I would think there would be some frequency effects in the measurement that would center a CB meter around 25Mhz and a marine around 160Mhz. Just guessing. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:05 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? we carry this one @$89.00 I would think power is power.. so "marine" is only a 'watertight" $$$ feature. I keep ours in a ziplock. We also carry one of these refractometers for batteries and coolant: Refractometer, CTX-2" src="http:// secure.scienceco mpany.com/ images/nc2978n. gif" width=180> Antifreeze / Coolant Refractometer, CTX-2 Mfr. Name: Vee Gee Scientific. Mfr. Model No.: CTX-2 This refractometer measures the freezing point of radiator antifreeze as well as battery charge condition. From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gillikin Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:48 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna -Cheap SWR meters? I couldn't agree more. Without respectful disagreements we would still be swinging on vines. This thread has been very helpful to me and I was a mere observer. The topic did spur me to google SWR meters. It looks like they can be had for as little as $25. However, they all from folks selling CB radio paraphernalia. Are all SWRs the same or does one need to get a device designed for the Marine VHF radio? Is this the kind of device that one might keep installed in the antenna line to run periodic tests? Regards, Wayne From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:39:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal25 VHF Antenna (roline) Al Waschka wrote: See below for my comments. I'll not reply further so as not to clutter up this boat board with technical electrical engineering details. Al: Speaking for myself, I don't mind "cluttering up a boat board with technical electrical engineering details" when they are related to boat operation, as this subject is. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things. What's objectionable in the way of clutter is the kind of pissing matches I've seen on other lists, where one person suggests that the other is just an obstinate fool and clueless idiot because of some difference of opinion. As long as people use civil language, the rest of us learn from polite arguments over technical matters Now perhaps somebody can recommend the best buy in inexpensive but reasonably accurate SWR meters. Chris Campbell