Polarity Alarm trips GFI

Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

Wayne, Chances are good that you might have a transformer inside the polarity alarm, which would cause havoc with a GFCI circuit. I would doubt that you are seeing a problem in your system. Good luck, Patrick Fiega "Wheee Dogggie" 1968 Cal 40 From: waynegillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:47:08 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

The polarity alarm consists of a LED and a buzzer. Could the buzzer be/have a transformer? From: Patrick Fiega <pf… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:33:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, Chances are good that you might have a transformer inside the polarity alarm, which would cause havoc with a GFCI circuit. I would doubt that you are seeing a problem in your system. Good luck, Patrick Fiega "Wheee Dogggie" 1968 Cal 40 From: waynegillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:47:08 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

Wayne, It will do the same thing, the buzzer has a coil in it which would have the same effect on a GFCI. Patrick From: Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56:36 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI The polarity alarm consists of a LED and a buzzer. Could the buzzer be/have a transformer? From: Patrick Fiega <pfiega@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:33:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, Chances are good that you might have a transformer inside the polarity alarm, which would cause havoc with a GFCI circuit. I would doubt that you are seeing a problem in your system. Good luck, Patrick Fiega "Wheee Dogggie" 1968 Cal 40 From: waynegillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:47:08 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

Patrick, Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to put a switch in the Polarity Alarm so I don't have to go behind the panel and disconnect/reconnect each time? Wayne From: Patrick Fiega <pf… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:20:53 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, It will do the same thing, the buzzer has a coil in it which would have the same effect on a GFCI. Patrick From: Wayne Gillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56:36 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI The polarity alarm consists of a LED and a buzzer. Could the buzzer be/have a transformer? From: Patrick Fiega <pfiega@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:33:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, Chances are good that you might have a transformer inside the polarity alarm, which would cause havoc with a GFCI circuit. I would doubt that you are seeing a problem in your system. Good luck, Patrick Fiega "Wheee Dogggie" 1968 Cal 40 From: waynegillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:47:08 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

Great idea as far as I could tell, it is what I would do. From: Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:36:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Patrick, Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to put a switch in the Polarity Alarm so I don't have to go behind the panel and disconnect/reconnec t each time? Wayne From: Patrick Fiega <pfiega@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:20:53 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, It will do the same thing, the buzzer has a coil in it which would have the same effect on a GFCI. Patrick From: Wayne Gillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56:36 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI The polarity alarm consists of a LED and a buzzer. Could the buzzer be/have a transformer? From: Patrick Fiega <pfiega@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:33:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, Chances are good that you might have a transformer inside the polarity alarm, which would cause havoc with a GFCI circuit. I would doubt that you are seeing a problem in your system. Good luck, Patrick Fiega "Wheee Dogggie" 1968 Cal 40 From: waynegillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:47:08 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

Patrick, Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Wayne From: Patrick Fiega <pf… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:46:24 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Great idea as far as I could tell, it is what I would do. From: Wayne Gillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:36:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Patrick, Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to put a switch in the Polarity Alarm so I don't have to go behind the panel and disconnect/reconnec t each time? Wayne From: Patrick Fiega <pfiega@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:20:53 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, It will do the same thing, the buzzer has a coil in it which would have the same effect on a GFCI. Patrick From: Wayne Gillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56:36 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI The polarity alarm consists of a LED and a buzzer. Could the buzzer be/have a transformer? From: Patrick Fiega <pfiega@yahoo. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:33:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Wayne, Chances are good that you might have a transformer inside the polarity alarm, which would cause havoc with a GFCI circuit. I would doubt that you are seeing a problem in your system. Good luck, Patrick Fiega "Wheee Dogggie" 1968 Cal 40 From: waynegillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:47:08 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Can anyone explain, in simple terms, why the Polarity Alarm on the 120V AC system in my boat would trip the GFI in the yard electrical system? During the winter I disconnect the Polarity Alarm while plugged into the yard AC system. I reconnect the Polarity Alarm when the boat is back in the water. Is this normal or an indication of a problem that I need to troubleshoot? Regards, Wayne Gillikin "Elusive" 1983 Cal 39 III

A switch in the alarm will stop the GFI from tripping, but would also disable the alarm. If you were to forget to turn it back on, or someone turns it off by mistake, you could cause a problem in a marina that is wired wrong, or your boat! Think about this one carefully!!! Carl Cal 34III Nauta > ------------------------------ > *From:* Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2009 10:36:24 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI > > Patrick, > > Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to put a switch in the Polarity > Alarm so I don't have to go behind the panel and disconnect/reconnec t each > time? > Wayne > >

Carl, Roger that. I have been kicking around that issue in my mind. The reason this question came up is because just this weekend another fellow in the YC, who has a much newer boat, mentioned to me that he could not get power to his boat because he kept tripping the GFI. I suggested he disconnect his Polarity Alarm. He told me it worked. When I wondered why it never happened in the past he said he probably had it switched off in the past. Ah… a switch… what a concept. However, I am not unaware that a lapse of concentration could cause problems here. But you bring up another issue. You said “in a marina that is wired wrong”. If my YC electric was wired right last season should I be able to depend on it being right this season. How about day to day or moment to moment? Does something have to be “done wrong” or is it the kind of thing that can “go wrong” due to environmental factors? So, for example, if I were to test when I plugged in my shore power can I turn off the alarm and feel safe that nothing will change over night? It should be obvious that I am pretty far from being an electrical engineer so please talk down to me. Wayne From: Carl <sa… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:40:28 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI A switch in the alarm will stop the GFI from tripping, but would also disable the alarm. If you were to forget to turn it back on, or someone turns it off by mistake, you could cause a problem in a marina that is wired wrong, or your boat! Think about this one carefully!!! Carl Cal 34III Nauta From: Wayne Gillikin <waynegillikin@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:36:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Polarity Alarm trips GFI Patrick, Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to put a switch in the Polarity Alarm so I don't have to go behind the panel and disconnect/ reconnec t each time? Wayne

Hi Wayne, The chances are real good that nothing will change overnight. Saying that, a broken wire in the system somewhere could cause problems. Over the ling term, do the docks come out in the winter? I'm in Vermont, on Lake Champlain. Most places the docks (and wireing) come out in the winter. I always check, even though it "was OK last year". Never found a problem. The reason the fault light trips the GFI could be the leakage current through the LED. My warning light is just an LED between the neutral and ground. If the GFI detects current flow between them, it will trip.Placing a resistor in series with the LED may help. It may make the LED dimmer, but may be bright enough. I don't have a buzzer or anything else in my system.The LED is right at the main AC breaker, so it is easy to see before switching on the power. Hope this helps you.... Carl Cal 34III Nauta On 4/27/09, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Carl, > > > Roger that. I have been kicking around that issue in my mind. The reason > this question came up is because just this weekend another fellow in the YC, > who has a much newer boat, mentioned to me that he could not get power to > his boat because he kept tripping the GFI. I suggested he disconnect his > Polarity Alarm. He told me it worked. When I wondered why it never > happened in the past he said he probably had it switched off in the past. > Ah… a switch… what a concept. However, I am not unaware that a lapse of > concentration could cause problems here. > > > > But you bring up another issue. You said “in a marina that is wired > wrong”. If my YC electric was wired right last season should I be able to > depend on it being right this season. How about day to day or moment to > moment? Does something have to be “done wrong” or is it the kind of thing > that can “go wrong” due to environmental factors? So, for example, if I > were to test when I plugged in my shore power can I turn off the alarm and > feel safe that nothing will change over night? > > > > It should be obvious that I am pretty far from being an electrical engineer > so please talk down to me. > > > > Wayne > > >

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Carl <sailnauta@...> wrote: I hope I don't make this too technical, because I am an electronics engineer. The GFCI is supposed to trip when it detects 5 milliamperes or more imbalance between the hot and neutral wires. The missing current is presumed to be going to ground via another path, perhaps a human being. With the reverse polarity LED from hot/neutral to ground, if the series current limiting resistor isn't large enough (less than 24k ohms) , more than 5 mA current will be drawn and the GFCI should trip. An extra-high brightness LED and an LED in the 100k range will address this problem (old school would be a NE-2H neon lamp with 33k or higher resistor -- the fact that I know this puts me firmly in the old school camp). Most of the 120VAC LED indicator lamps will draw too much current. -- discovered that when I added a reverse polarity LED and kept tripping the GFCI in the boat yard -- that switch is a clever idea, could even be a single pole/double throw switch with a large value resistor to get the current down below 2 mA -- shore power GFCI tester in one position, reverse polarity checker in both positions, with one position brighter than the other. Harold Beer Cal 2-27 #189 S/V Arcturus

I have wondered why this occurs since buying by Cal35 in '92. I thought I may have misswired my batter charger or that other boats were causing the problem in the yard's circuits. I bought a plug in circuit tester that discovered a problem with the yard's power that was subsequently fixed and was mystified when the problem reoccurred this year. It was great when this thread started and I finally learned why it was happening. It is even greater to get an explanation like this. Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion. - David From: haroldbeer <be… [at] msu.edu> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 3:58:03 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Polarity Alarm trips GFI --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Carl <sailnauta@. ..> wrote: I hope I don't make this too technical, because I am an electronics engineer. The GFCI is supposed to trip when it detects 5 milliamperes or more imbalance between the hot and neutral wires. The missing current is presumed to be going to ground via another path, perhaps a human being. With the reverse polarity LED from hot/neutral to ground, if the series current limiting resistor isn't large enough (less than 24k ohms) , more than 5 mA current will be drawn and the GFCI should trip. An extra-high brightness LED and an LED in the 100k range will address this problem (old school would be a NE-2H neon lamp with 33k or higher resistor -- the fact that I know this puts me firmly in the old school camp). Most of the 120VAC LED indicator lamps will draw too much current. -- discovered that when I added a reverse polarity LED and kept tripping the GFCI in the boat yard -- that switch is a clever idea, could even be a single pole/double throw switch with a large value resistor to get the current down below 2 mA -- shore power GFCI tester in one position, reverse polarity checker in both positions, with one position brighter than the other. Harold Beer Cal 2-27 #189 S/V Arcturus

Thanks Harold for the great information. My knowledge was generic and glad to have some better info. Patrick I hope I don't make this too technical, because I am an electronics engineer. The GFCI is supposed to trip when it detects 5 milliamperes or more imbalance between the hot and neutral wires. The missing current is presumed to be going to ground via another path, perhaps a human being. With the reverse polarity LED from hot/neutral to ground, if the series current limiting resistor isn't large enough (less than 24k ohms) , more than 5 mA current will be drawn and the GFCI should trip. An extra-high brightness LED and an LED in the 100k range will address this problem (old school would be a NE-2H neon lamp with 33k or higher resistor -- the fact that I know this puts me firmly in the old school camp). Most of the 120VAC LED indicator lamps will draw too much current. -- discovered that when I added a reverse polarity LED and kept tripping the GFCI in the boat yard -- that switch is a clever idea, could even be a single pole/double throw switch with a large value resistor to get the current down below 2 mA -- shore power GFCI tester in one position, reverse polarity checker in both positions, with one position brighter than the other. Harold Beer Cal 2-27 #189 S/V Arcturus

anyone have an extra set of self tailing winches, size 44-50 range to sell? Reggie

Thank you for the good advice about dropping the mast on my Cal25. I constructed an a-frame from 2x4's and rigged it to the boat with my old halyards. I used the main sheet tackle to control the mast and it worked perfectly. The radio antenna wiring has a screw in connector stuffed in the mast, everything came apart quite easily actually. Frame setup http://muvvachicken.com/images/cal25/dropmast5_2/aframe.jpg Mast coming down http://muvvachicken.com/images/cal25/dropmast5_2/coming_down.jpg Now the fun begins!

Randy needs a big round for finishing frist in his class, we all had a great race with wind all night. Dave Paulson Allergia Cal34 ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Martin To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:45 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Step Cal25 Mast - Thank you! Thank you for the good advice about dropping the mast on my Cal25. I constructed an a-frame from 2x4's and rigged it to the boat with my old halyards. I used the main sheet tackle to control the mast and it worked perfectly. The radio antenna wiring has a screw in connector stuffed in the mast, everything came apart quite easily actually. Frame setup http://muvvachicken.com/images/cal25/dropmast5_2/aframe.jpg Mast coming down http://muvvachicken.com/images/cal25/dropmast5_2/coming_down.jpg Now the fun begins!