Forestay tension

Hi All, I am the owner of a pre cal Lapworth designed boat, an L-36 (hull #5). I thought this list might be able to help me with a conundrum I am facing. I race in a classic boat race called the Master Mariners Regatta and have a long string of 2nd place finishes over the years. While that is good, I would like to beat the guy who always comes in first. He is very nice and shared some of the settings on his boat. The one that has me scratching my head is his forestay tension. I have a 1/4 inch forestay and adjust it to about 18% of breaking strength or about 1450 pounds using a PT-2 gauge. I actually don't know what his rigging is as he has an aluminum mast and mine is wood but he said he sets his backstay adjuster so that the gauge reads 3400. I assume that is 3400 psi and that the backstay load is probably 1.16 times that and that the forestay is 1.5 times the backstay load or 5900 pounds. Can that be? The only reason I lost is that he out pointed me. My sails are new and while there are many other reasons he would out point me, I am struck by what to do about this one. He is, by the way, one of the best sailors in the country and I am not. But my boat is faster on any other point of sail so I stand a chance. We also race in October and we are even in that series. It is this Memorial day weekend race I most want to win. It has 6 legs only 2 of which are beats so if I can just be competitive on the beat, I think I can win. Any insight would be most welcome. Allen

Allen, do you have an adjustable backstay? If your sails are new, they are probably cut flatter than the old ones. I never go with gauge measurements, but rather with the feel of the boat. On my CAL 25, I run a very loose fore/aft rig. I run a lot of sag in the forestay going to windward (depending on sail choice and wind obviously). I bet if get some of the tightness out of that rig, you will point higher. Flatter sails on our older boats need the forestay sag to perform (IMHO). Also, depending on how much windward helm you get, moving the masthead forward some will help neutralize it. Some weather helm is often a good thing. I also let the boat ride up some in puffs. The sawing action to windward buys you windward ground. Tis' a matter of touch. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:51 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Forestay tension Hi All, I am the owner of a pre cal Lapworth designed boat, an L-36 (hull #5). I thought this list might be able to help me with a conundrum I am facing. I race in a classic boat race called the Master Mariners Regatta and have a long string of 2nd place finishes over the years. While that is good, I would like to beat the guy who always comes in first. He is very nice and shared some of the settings on his boat. The one that has me scratching my head is his forestay tension. I have a 1/4 inch forestay and adjust it to about 18% of breaking strength or about 1450 pounds using a PT-2 gauge. I actually don't know what his rigging is as he has an aluminum mast and mine is wood but he said he sets his backstay adjuster so that the gauge reads 3400. I assume that is 3400 psi and that the backstay load is probably 1.16 times that and that the forestay is 1.5 times the backstay load or 5900 pounds. Can that be? The only reason I lost is that he out pointed me. My sails are new and while there are many other reasons he would out point me, I am struck by what to do about this one. He is, by the way, one of the best sailors in the country and I am not. But my boat is faster on any other point of sail so I stand a chance. We also race in October and we are even in that series. It is this Memorial day weekend race I most want to win. It has 6 legs only 2 of which are beats so if I can just be competitive on the beat, I think I can win. Any insight would be most welcome. Allen

Thanks for the reply. My backstay is adjustable and we change it some in a race. I leave it sloppy lose in the slip and run between 1000 and 1500 on the forestay when sailing depending on the wind. Here is a picture of my 155 http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=155.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20155 We likely had a fair amount of headstay tension when this was taken. Allen --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Allen, do you have an adjustable backstay? If your sails are new, they > are probably cut flatter than the old ones. I never go with gauge > measurements, but rather with the feel of the boat. On my CAL 25, I run > a very loose fore/aft rig. I run a lot of sag in the forestay going to > windward (depending on sail choice and wind obviously). I bet if get > some of the tightness out of that rig, you will point higher. Flatter > sails on our older boats need the forestay sag to perform (IMHO). Also, > depending on how much windward helm you get, moving the masthead forward > some will help neutralize it. Some weather helm is often a good thing. > I also let the boat ride up some in puffs. The sawing action to > windward buys you windward ground. Tis' a matter of touch. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ________________________________ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Allen Edwards > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:51 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Forestay tension > > > > > Hi All, > > I am the owner of a pre cal Lapworth designed boat, an L-36 (hull #5). > I thought this list might be able to help me with a conundrum I am > facing. I race in a classic boat race called the Master Mariners Regatta > and have a long string of 2nd place finishes over the years. While that > is good, I would like to beat the guy who always comes in first. He is > very nice and shared some of the settings on his boat. The one that has > me scratching my head is his forestay tension. I have a 1/4 inch > forestay and adjust it to about 18% of breaking strength or about 1450 > pounds using a PT-2 gauge. I actually don't know what his rigging is as > he has an aluminum mast and mine is wood but he said he sets his > backstay adjuster so that the gauge reads 3400. I assume that is 3400 > psi and that the backstay load is probably 1.16 times that and that the > forestay is 1.5 times the backstay load or 5900 pounds. Can that be? > > The only reason I lost is that he out pointed me. My sails are new and > while there are many other reasons he would out point me, I am struck by > what to do about this one. He is, by the way, one of the best sailors in > the country and I am not. But my boat is faster on any other point of > sail so I stand a chance. We also race in October and we are even in > that series. It is this Memorial day weekend race I most want to win. > It has 6 legs only 2 of which are beats so if I can just be competitive > on the beat, I think I can win. > > Any insight would be most welcome. > > Allen >

Allen, I've always maintained that any sail that looks that pretty is too tight. Try easing the jib halyard till you get puckers. And when you can't stand the look of it, ease it some more. This will move the draft back and give you a tighter entry. I'll send you some photos from our CAL 25 fleet. These are all things to try, since obviously boats and sails and drivers are different. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of xhpspd Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:39 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Forestay tension (Allen) Thanks for the reply. My backstay is adjustable and we change it some in a race. I leave it sloppy lose in the slip and run between 1000 and 1500 on the forestay when sailing depending on the wind. Here is a picture of my 155 http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=155.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20155 We likely had a fair amount of headstay tension when this was taken. Allen --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Allen, do you have an adjustable backstay? If your sails are new, > they are probably cut flatter than the old ones. I never go with > gauge measurements, but rather with the feel of the boat. On my CAL > 25, I run a very loose fore/aft rig. I run a lot of sag in the > forestay going to windward (depending on sail choice and wind > obviously). I bet if get some of the tightness out of that rig, you > will point higher. Flatter sails on our older boats need the forestay > sag to perform (IMHO). Also, depending on how much windward helm you > get, moving the masthead forward some will help neutralize it. Some weather helm is often a good thing. > I also let the boat ride up some in puffs. The sawing action to > windward buys you windward ground. Tis' a matter of touch. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ________________________________ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Allen Edwards > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:51 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Forestay tension > > > > > Hi All, > > I am the owner of a pre cal Lapworth designed boat, an L-36 (hull #5). > I thought this list might be able to help me with a conundrum I am > facing. I race in a classic boat race called the Master Mariners > Regatta and have a long string of 2nd place finishes over the years. > While that is good, I would like to beat the guy who always comes in > first. He is very nice and shared some of the settings on his boat. > The one that has me scratching my head is his forestay tension. I have > a 1/4 inch forestay and adjust it to about 18% of breaking strength or > about 1450 pounds using a PT-2 gauge. I actually don't know what his > rigging is as he has an aluminum mast and mine is wood but he said he > sets his backstay adjuster so that the gauge reads 3400. I assume that > is 3400 psi and that the backstay load is probably 1.16 times that and > that the forestay is 1.5 times the backstay load or 5900 pounds. Can that be? > > The only reason I lost is that he out pointed me. My sails are new and > while there are many other reasons he would out point me, I am struck > by what to do about this one. He is, by the way, one of the best > sailors in the country and I am not. But my boat is faster on any > other point of sail so I stand a chance. We also race in October and > we are even in that series. It is this Memorial day weekend race I most want to win. > It has 6 legs only 2 of which are beats so if I can just be > competitive on the beat, I think I can win. > > Any insight would be most welcome. > > Allen > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks for the comment. We are going to be more diligent about keeping the draft back about 40% and see if that helps. I promise to ignore any puckers. Allen --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Allen, I've always maintained that any sail that looks that pretty is > too tight. Try easing the jib halyard till you get puckers. And when > you can't stand the look of it, ease it some more. This will move the > draft back and give you a tighter entry. I'll send you some photos > from our CAL 25 fleet. > > These are all things to try, since obviously boats and sails and drivers > are different. > > Cheers > Charlie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of xhpspd > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:39 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Forestay tension (Allen) > > Thanks for the reply. My backstay is adjustable and we change it some > in a race. I leave it sloppy lose in the slip and run between 1000 and > 1500 on the forestay when sailing depending on the wind. > Here is a picture of my 155 > http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=155.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20155 > > We likely had a fair amount of headstay tension when this was taken. > > Allen > >

I have completed my measurement of forestay tension on my L-36. My conclusion is that the Loos PT-2 is not very accurate at high readings on 1/4 inch wire but the PT-3 is accurate. The final measurements were made with a bathroom scale and a lever to that I got about a 10:1 transfer to the scale and could thus read the tension off the bathroom scale. I also made measurement using the stretch charcteristics of the wire and got basically the same result as with the scale. If anyone has any input on what I have done, please chime in. You all with your aluminum masts probably don't care as much as I do with my wood mast but I pass it on in case it may be of interest. http://l-36.com/loosaccuracy.php Just for reference on turning a Cal rig. I offer the instructions from several of the manuals: http://l-36.com/rigtune.php And a letter from Bill Lapworth on the subject http://l-36.com/lapworth_letter.pdf Cheers, Allen