Heeling and Sail Selection

Hi, All. Been reading the myriad posts on the topic. This is a bit long. Sorry for that. So, here goes. The unsavory answer to the conundrum is "It depends." And it depends on a lot of things, some of which did not get mentioned (as far as I have seen). The cruisers were right on in putting up smaller sails when the big dependencies are number and capability of crew, and the rigging of the boat for sail changes/reefing. After all, what's the rush. However, the feeling of the surge of the boat is a very nice thing. For the racing aspect, "it depends" on many things. First off, people have different driving styles and feels. Some can punch up into puffs without overdoing and stalling; some can't. Takes practice and feel. I find that windward driving in puffy air is more like driving a sawtooth path rather than a straight line. Let the boat come up under you when it feels like it, but fight her down before she stalls (with proper correction on the main to ease the pressure). Secondly, the cut of the sail is a big deal. Flat and drafty sails are very different. I think you'd be surprised at the differences in sails from different sailmakers and even the difference for the same sailmakers in different regions. Hopefully, they have tailored their designs for the local conditions, but don't bet on it. Flatter sails can really move, but have a narrower driving slot, thus stalling more readily. This goes back to the driving thing above. Also, there is the clew height of the cut. There are decksweepers and there are high cuts. To use decksweepers, one may need multiple tracks and blocking positions forward. I find that one can go higher than a vertical inboard telltale on the jib with the pointing angle and lack of leeway making up the speed difference. I like pointing - probably too much in light air. Something I did not see mentioned is the sheeting angle of the jib sheet. One can depower a jib by moving the sheeting block aft. This flattens the bottom of the sail and opens the top to depower it up high. Also allows the sheet to come in further since the sail is curled out at the spreader. In lighter air, a barber hauler brings the clew inboard, and provides a sort of higher pointing angle. Another significant item is the chop or periodicity of the waves. Here in Annapolis we have short wave periods when the seas build up. Hard to roll over the waves. A lot of slamming if not real careful, and sometimes unavoidable. The lore is that for flatter water with increasing winds, a No.2 sail (130 to 135) and a full main can be used. If the chop is up, then a No.1 and a reef are preferred for more drive. I admit it. I am a main flogger. Yes, it is hard on the sail, but in the lulls the increase in speed makes up for it. Try driving a CAL with a reefed main to windward, and you won't get a whole lot out of it. The sail mainly serves a balancing function at that point (as others have said, I believe). Here is some counterintuitive stuff I sort of cooked up in my head: Easing the jib halyard tension to windward, even to the point of scalloping the jib, flattens the entry of the sail and allows higher pointing. As you tension the halyard, watch the front of the sail curl moving the entry to the wind to leeward. If it is blowing, you don't need the maximum drive anyway. Easing the backstay tension (yes, to windward) moves the bulk of the forestay outward. This then allows you bring the sheet in further for a higher effective angle. This is primarily for flatter sails as it also gives more shape. The counter to that is that the backstay has to come in for broad reaching and running, since the loosened forestay tends to flap back and forth on those courses. Totally backwards (but then, that is me). On a CAL 25, I know that some people go straight from a No.1 to a 110 (for which battens can be used under PHRF and CAL 25 rules) for windward work. Sheeting is then between the shrouds, and track and blocks need to be available for that. Bet I can beat 30 seconds on a reef. The forward reef line and main halyard are side by side on my deck layout. One person can do both with a continuous motion. Reef line is 1-1 to cam cleat. Main halyard is rope clutch with winch available. The back reef line on the other side of the deck has a rope clutch and a winch available. The two actions can be done in sequence or at the same time. In Annapolis, we typically only get one reef in the main. (Some of the J boat frac rigs with the big mains don't have them at all - using mast bend for power-depower). A double reef might get used once a year if that. By then, it is time to go home. Make Any Sense (except for the big words)? Cheers Charlie

How nice it would be to have the sailing wizards on this site inspect all of our Cals and critique what they see. Not sure I really want to know. P.S. Switched ISP providers on my Cal28 site (Valueweb was bought by Hostway - nothing I could do about it) and now my subdirectories are not accessible, even to me. I should have it corrected today. I hope. http://www.stirlinglaw.com/cal28 --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > Hi, All. Been reading the myriad posts on the topic. This is a bit long. Sorry for that. So, here goes. > > Make Any Sense (except for the big words)? > > Cheers > Charlie >

Hey Charlie, What you say makes sense. Easing the halliard on a sail cut too flat for lighter conditions will powerup the sail to a degree that will improve the performance. We started really letting off on the backstay in the 80's on IOR boats that were hard to steer down wind. We would set up the jib halliard to pull the masthead 6-10 feet forward on a 45 foot boat with the backstay eased.Remember bloopers? Bloopers added a 1/4 of a knot downwind on the Peterson 43 "Corsair" we raced in the late 80's Now on my Cal 20 we use lots of backstay pressure in strong wind to windward. As soon as we reach the weather mark we ease the backstay to move the masthead forward about 2 feet. you can even feel the boat pick up speed and start to surf if the waves are big enough. Steering decomes easier as the center of effort moves up closer to the bow and we move crew weight aft. Thanks for your good views on the subject. My Best, Mike --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Heeling and Sail Selection To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 3:30 AM Hi, All. Been reading the myriad posts on the topic. This is a bit long. Sorry for that. So, here goes. The unsavory answer to the conundrum is "It depends." And it depends on a lot of things, some of which did not get mentioned (as far as I have seen). The cruisers were right on in putting up smaller sails when the big dependencies are number and capability of crew, and the rigging of the boat for sail changes/reefing. After all, what's the rush. However, the feeling of the surge of the boat is a very nice thing. For the racing aspect, "it depends" on many things. First off, people have different driving styles and feels. Some can punch up into puffs without overdoing and stalling; some can't. Takes practice and feel. I find that windward driving in puffy air is more like driving a sawtooth path rather than a straight line. Let the boat come up under you when it feels like it, but fight her down before she stalls (with proper correction on the main to ease the pressure). Secondly, the cut of the sail is a big deal. Flat and drafty sails are very different. I think you'd be surprised at the differences in sails from different sailmakers and even the difference for the same sailmakers in different regions. Hopefully, they have tailored their designs for the local conditions, but don't bet on it. Flatter sails can really move, but have a narrower driving slot, thus stalling more readily. This goes back to the driving thing above. Also, there is the clew height of the cut. There are decksweepers and there are high cuts. To use decksweepers, one may need multiple tracks and blocking positions forward. I find that one can go higher than a vertical inboard telltale on the jib with the pointing angle and lack of leeway making up the speed difference. I like pointing - probably too much in light air. Something I did not see mentioned is the sheeting angle of the jib sheet. One can depower a jib by moving the sheeting block aft. This flattens the bottom of the sail and opens the top to depower it up high. Also allows the sheet to come in further since the sail is curled out at the spreader. In lighter air, a barber hauler brings the clew inboard, and provides a sort of higher pointing angle. Another significant item is the chop or periodicity of the waves. Here in Annapolis we have short wave periods when the seas build up. Hard to roll over the waves. A lot of slamming if not real careful, and sometimes unavoidable. The lore is that for flatter water with increasing winds, a No.2 sail (130 to 135) and a full main can be used. If the chop is up, then a No.1 and a reef are preferred for more drive. I admit it. I am a main flogger. Yes, it is hard on the sail, but in the lulls the increase in speed makes up for it. Try driving a CAL with a reefed main to windward, and you won't get a whole lot out of it. The sail mainly serves a balancing function at that point (as others have said, I believe). Here is some counterintuitive stuff I sort of cooked up in my head: Easing the jib halyard tension to windward, even to the point of scalloping the jib, flattens the entry of the sail and allows higher pointing. As you tension the halyard, watch the front of the sail curl moving the entry to the wind to leeward. If it is blowing, you don't need the maximum drive anyway. Easing the backstay tension (yes, to windward) moves the bulk of the forestay outward. This then allows you bring the sheet in further for a higher effective angle. This is primarily for flatter sails as it also gives more shape. The counter to that is that the backstay has to come in for broad reaching and running, since the loosened forestay tends to flap back and forth on those courses. Totally backwards (but then, that is me). On a CAL 25, I know that some people go straight from a No.1 to a 110 (for which battens can be used under PHRF and CAL 25 rules) for windward work. Sheeting is then between the shrouds, and track and blocks need to be available for that. Bet I can beat 30 seconds on a reef. The forward reef line and main halyard are side by side on my deck layout. One person can do both with a continuous motion. Reef line is 1-1 to cam cleat. Main halyard is rope clutch with winch available. The back reef line on the other side of the deck has a rope clutch and a winch available. The two actions can be done in sequence or at the same time. In Annapolis, we typically only get one reef in the main. (Some of the J boat frac rigs with the big mains don't have them at all - using mast bend for power-depower). A double reef might get used once a year if that. By then, it is time to go home. Make Any Sense (except for the big words)? Cheers Charlie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

mike farrell wrote: > > > > Now on my Cal 20 we use lots of backstay pressure in > strong wind to windward. As soon as we reach the weather mark we ease > the backstay to move the masthead forward about 2 feet. > Question about all this backstay adjustment... my Cal 20 has enough flex in the hull, deck, and various parts that too much rig tension just seems to push the mast step down. Have you added chainplates for your shrouds or beefed up the compression post system under your mast, Mike? What kind of backstay tensioner do you use--a split backstay? Chris Campbell > >

You can measure the hull flex by tying a line on the bow and taking it back through a block over the stern to a bucket of water. Put a mark where the line crosses the mast then tension the rig. Allen On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Chris Campbell<cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: > > > mike farrell wrote: > > > > Now on my Cal 20 we use lots of backstay pressure in strong wind > to windward. As soon as we reach the weather mark we ease the backstay to > move the masthead forward about 2 feet. > > > > > Question about all this backstay adjustment... my Cal 20 has enough flex in > the hull, deck, and various parts that too much rig tension just seems to > push the mast step down. Have you added chainplates for your shrouds or > beefed up the compression post system under your mast, Mike? What kind of > backstay tensioner do you use--a split backstay? > > Chris Campbell > > >

Hi Chris, On Rambler, hull # 1114 I have the later style of configuration--- no ring bulkhead as on the earlier boats-- 2 metal supports under the beam instead. Rambler has a tang to take the forestay load on the hull as opposed to the deck. A turnbuckle has been added to the aft lowers below deck again to transfer the load to the hull from the deck as the highest mast loading is on the lowers. I use a split backstay with a single sheave block on the standing part. a 6 part tackle gives 24 to 1. I formerly used a cascade tackle with 48 to 1. I found it twisted the mast because the load could not be equalized between the cascading blocks and I really did not as much power as that. We have been sailing Argo hull 471 with ring bulkhead-- same configuration as Rambler. I see no issues with hull bending or step compression. This set up gives 1200 pounds backstay pressure with 50 pounds pull on the tackle. My Best, Mike --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Heeling and Sail Selection To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 9:19 AM mike farrell wrote: Now on my Cal 20 we use lots of backstay pressure in strong wind to windward. As soon as we reach the weather mark we ease the backstay to move the masthead forward about 2 feet. Question about all this backstay adjustment... my Cal 20 has enough flex in the hull, deck, and various parts that too much rig tension just seems to push the mast step down. Have you added chainplates for your shrouds or beefed up the compression post system under your mast, Mike? What kind of backstay tensioner do you use--a split backstay? Chris Campbell

On Aug 18, 2009, at 7:59 AM, mike farrell wrote: > > Hey Charlie, > What you say makes sense. Easing the halliard on a sail > cut too flat for lighter conditions will powerup the sail to a > degree that will improve the performance. > We started really letting off on the backstay in the > 80's on IOR boats that were hard to steer down wind. We would set up > the jib halliard to pull the masthead 6-10 feet forward on a 45 foot > boat with the backstay eased.Remember bloopers? Bloopers added a 1/4 > of a knot downwind on the Peterson 43 "Corsair" we raced in the late > 80's A lot of the value of bloopers was to make steering the old IOR boats easier in a breeze downwind. We used it a lot on my Yankee 38 and on the Peterson 35. By the time the Choate 40 came along, with its wide stern and far better stability, I don't recall ever using a blooper. We drove the Choate 40 in 40 knots plus with a 1.5 oz chute and had no control problems, even in the middle of the night. I would not dream of taking a Yankee 38 in Transpac. Partly, it was too heavy. For a while we had a hydraulic cylinder on the headstay on the Peterson 35 to move the mast head back and forth. Finally IOR outlawed them. A friend of mine in the old Mexican race days had a Tartan 44 named Bandido. One time they set a 1.5 chute in stops when it was blowing about 35. The boat accelerated so quickly when the chute popped open that he almost went off the stern. He was standing at the wheel and the backstay hit him in the back of the head. Probably kept him in the boat. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > Now on my Cal 20 we use lots of backstay pressure in > strong wind to windward. As soon as we reach the weather mark we > ease the backstay to move the masthead forward about 2 feet. you can > even feel the boat pick up speed and start to surf if the waves are > big enough. Steering decomes easier as the center of effort moves up > closer to the bow and we move crew weight aft. > Thanks for your good views on the subject. > My Best, Mike >

God I love it. I can just see him getting hit on the head as the boat took off. We had some great times. I can remember when the harbors emptied on race days. We had 20 to 40 Cal 20's on the line, and that was for 5 yes 5 races on Sat and Sunday. God bless this mess, My Best, Mike --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Michael Kennedy <mt… [at] cox.net> wrote: From: Michael Kennedy <mt… [at] cox.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Heeling and Sail Selection To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 10:31 AM On Aug 18, 2009, at 7:59 AM, mike farrell wrote: > > Hey Charlie, > What you say makes sense. Easing the halliard on a sail > cut too flat for lighter conditions will powerup the sail to a > degree that will improve the performance. > We started really letting off on the backstay in the > 80's on IOR boats that were hard to steer down wind. We would set up > the jib halliard to pull the masthead 6-10 feet forward on a 45 foot > boat with the backstay eased.Remember bloopers? Bloopers added a 1/4 > of a knot downwind on the Peterson 43 "Corsair" we raced in the late > 80's A lot of the value of bloopers was to make steering the old IOR boats easier in a breeze downwind. We used it a lot on my Yankee 38 and on the Peterson 35. By the time the Choate 40 came along, with its wide stern and far better stability, I don't recall ever using a blooper. We drove the Choate 40 in 40 knots plus with a 1.5 oz chute and had no control problems, even in the middle of the night. I would not dream of taking a Yankee 38 in Transpac. Partly, it was too heavy. For a while we had a hydraulic cylinder on the headstay on the Peterson 35 to move the mast head back and forth. Finally IOR outlawed them. A friend of mine in the old Mexican race days had a Tartan 44 named Bandido. One time they set a 1.5 chute in stops when it was blowing about 35. The boat accelerated so quickly when the chute popped open that he almost went off the stern. He was standing at the wheel and the backstay hit him in the back of the head. Probably kept him in the boat. Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > Now on my Cal 20 we use lots of backstay pressure in > strong wind to windward. As soon as we reach the weather mark we > ease the backstay to move the masthead forward about 2 feet. you can > even feel the boat pick up speed and start to surf if the waves are > big enough. Steering decomes easier as the center of effort moves up > closer to the bow and we move crew weight aft. > Thanks for your good views on the subject.. > My Best, Mike > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links