Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie)

> > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

Sailing in the best wind is a "secret" of winning. When goin up wind, if you must cross the course and another boat to get to it, it is important to give up as few boatlengths as possible. A port tack boat needs to decide as early as possible if it is going to duck a starboard tack boat. A slight helm adjustment can put you across their stern if you do it early enough. It can also gain you some boat speed as you are just a little off close hauled. as you cross close behind the starbaord boat, you will be lifted. Done correctly you should lose no boatlengths from the mark and may actually gain boatlengths on the competition because of the increased boatspeed. The big mistake is waiting too long to decide what you are going to do. If ducking, you'll have to make a radical turn and throw away boat speed and boatlengths from the mark. If tacking, tacking too late and having them sail over top of you and steal your wind. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

I've been told a reaching course is basicly a parade. Tactics have little to do with it, except for local knowledge about currents and an ability to move to puffs others can't get. Beyond that, it is simply boat speed. Faster boats can pass slower boats and move up in the parade. Everything else being equal, boats will probably finish in the order they start. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

My question really had to do with two boats on the same tack, one trying to overtake. The question is can you pass close to leeward if the other boat is the same design but slightly slower due to some difference in weight or sails. That said, your advice is certainly good and I thank you for replying. Allen On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Sailing in the best wind is a "secret" of winning. When goin up wind, if > you must cross the course and another boat to get to it, it is important to > give up as few boatlengths as possible. A port tack boat needs to decide as > early as possible if it is going to duck a starboard tack boat. A slight > helm adjustment can put you across their stern if you do it early enough. > It can also gain you some boat speed as you are just a little off close > hauled. as you cross close behind the starbaord boat, you will be lifted. > Done correctly you should lose no boatlengths from the mark and may actually > gain boatlengths on the competition because of the increased boatspeed. > The big mistake is waiting too long to decide what you are going to do. > If ducking, you'll have to make a radical turn and throw away boat speed > and boatlengths from the mark. > If tacking, tacking too late and having them sail over top of you and steal > your wind. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > > > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib > of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting > wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking > about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip > through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you > are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the > windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > > > Charlie > > > __ > > Charlie, > > Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 > design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to > work? > > If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them > and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if > the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without > tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly > the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day > weekend. > > Allen > > >

Allen, among the top boats the closing speeds are close to non-existent. If you are in a wind shadow, then you have to tack or crack off for speed. We look more at separation abeam. If you want to sail under someone, then you need to get some distance to lee to minimize shadow effects. In general to windward, tacking is the way out of the problem. But then, if you are on a lay line to a mark, dropping down will put you below the lay line, and tacking will make you over stand. You pays your money and takes your chances. If the distance to the mark is not great, then you just eat it or try to cheat to windward. Need to weigh the difference between the lost speed and the cost of two tacks (that also will carry lost speed). Tacking is an important weapon for matched boats. As for the slower one design boats (where there is closing speed from astern - some question as to how they got in front in the first place - maybe a well timed tack in a shift - or it is a boat in another class), the boats are usually lower pointed as well, so taking them to windward is not a problem. If I were to sequence the important things for boat speed (versus boat tactics), I'd say: 1. Clean bottom 2. Good driver with feel for the conditions 3. Good, well trimmed sails 4. Good crew (of course they participate in the well trimmed sails) My crew would be ticked at this. For the tactics end, good crew moves up the list. But good tactics can only make up so much if your boat is slower. I did some crewing in some "Friday Night Beer Can" cruiser handicap races this summer. I was emergency crew, and there was an emergency almost every week. Sigh... I found that many of the boats had dirty bottoms to varying degrees. It is sadly humorous when a CAL 25 is passing some 40 footer. Cheers Charlie From: Allen Edwards [mailto:al… [at] gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Husar, Charlie [USA] Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

Yes, local knowledge is a big deal in SF Bay where we race and I have a disadvantage there. I have a faster boat and if I get ahead of him, I pull away pretty well. I gained about 15 seconds on him in a 2 mile leg for example. He is a better sailor and is very hard to pass. After the last race I asked him how he decided when to tack on a particular leg. His response was that he has done that leg 1,000 times. It was my first. I have worked on some of the problems we had the last race and improved a great deal. Now I am just trying to collect knowledge on the best way to pass. I think my record against him is 3 out of 12 races yielding 1 out of 8 events. Allen On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:28 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > I've been told a reaching course is basicly a parade. Tactics have little > to do with it, except for local knowledge about currents and an ability to > move to puffs others can't get. Beyond that, it is simply boat speed. > Faster boats can pass slower boats and move up in the parade. Everything > else being equal, boats will probably finish in the order they start. > Reggie > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib > of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting > wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking > about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip > through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you > are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the > windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > > > Charlie > > > __ > > Charlie, > > Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 > design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to > work? > > If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them > and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if > the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without > tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly > the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day > weekend. > > Allen > > >

Thanks! Allen On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com > wrote: > > > Allen, among the top boats the closing speeds are close to non-existent. If > you are in a wind shadow, then you have to tack or crack off for speed. We > look more at separation abeam. If you want to sail under someone, then you > need to get some distance to lee to minimize shadow effects. In general to > windward, tacking is the way out of the problem. But then, if you are on a > lay line to a mark, dropping down will put you below the lay line, and > tacking will make you over stand. You pays your money and takes your > chances. If the distance to the mark is not great, then you just eat it or > try to cheat to windward. Need to weigh the difference between the lost > speed and the cost of two tacks (that also will carry lost speed). Tacking > is an important weapon for matched boats. > > As for the slower one design boats (where there is closing speed from > astern - some question as to how they got in front in the first place - > maybe a well timed tack in a shift - or it is a boat in another class), the > boats are usually lower pointed as well, so taking them to windward is not a > problem. > > If I were to sequence the important things for boat speed (versus boat > tactics), I'd say: > > 1. Clean bottom > 2. Good driver with feel for the conditions > 3. Good, well trimmed sails > 4. Good crew (of course they participate in the well trimmed sails) > > My crew would be ticked at this. For the tactics end, good crew moves up > the list. But good tactics can only make up so much if your boat is slower. > > I did some crewing in some "Friday Night Beer Can" cruiser handicap races > this summer. I was emergency crew, and there was an emergency almost every > week. Sigh... I found that many of the boats had dirty bottoms to varying > degrees. It is sadly humorous when a CAL 25 is passing some 40 footer. > > Cheers > Charlie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Edwards [mailto:al… [at] gmail.com<allen.p.edwards%40gmail.com>] > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:28 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>; Husar, > Charlie [USA] > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of > the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind > when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. > Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through > their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are > passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the > windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > > > Charlie > > > __ > > Charlie, > > Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 > design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? > > If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and > hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course > was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound > like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood > boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. > > Allen > >

Allen, I like your tactic, and it is often one I like to employ. Three things to think about 1. boat speed is KING. - keep the boat speed at a maximum, SOW and WPV (waypoint closure velocity = speed to the mark) 2. "gas" wind shadow turbulence from other boats / your boat slows boats (use as an defense/offence) 3. Your boat Polars. I saw your strategy and understand it as: assuming you are beating Sail up on the transom "out of their wind shadow" at high speed. (If you point higher to pass then, with most polars the boat will go slower, if you fall off you typically go into the polar section with more speed.) While at "full speed" you fall off and accelerate into your faster polars, as you are very close to the other boat, his wind shadow is stronger, but very narrow. With your increased speed, and mass of your boat, you coast through his shadow (if it is a smaller boat then the upper portion of your sails never see the shadow.) As you break the shadow, and fall off again, you are probably again getting into a faster portion of your polars, while the other boat is possibly pinching and going into his slow portion of his polars. After breaking the shadow, and sailing at your peak polar, you develop more apparent wind, allowing you so gradually lift back in front of the other boat, so you can "gas" his sails and cause him to slow down or tack. Here's the polars for our Cal 40, as you can note, as you point higher, you go slower through the water. [cid:296302017@24092009-36EB] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:31 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) My question really had to do with two boats on the same tack, one trying to overtake. The question is can you pass close to leeward if the other boat is the same design but slightly slower due to some difference in weight or sails. That said, your advice is certainly good and I thank you for replying. Allen On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com<mailto:my… [at] hotmail.com>> wrote: Sailing in the best wind is a "secret" of winning. When goin up wind, if you must cross the course and another boat to get to it, it is important to give up as few boatlengths as possible. A port tack boat needs to decide as early as possible if it is going to duck a starboard tack boat. A slight helm adjustment can put you across their stern if you do it early enough. It can also gain you some boat speed as you are just a little off close hauled. as you cross close behind the starbaord boat, you will be lifted. Done correctly you should lose no boatlengths from the mark and may actually gain boatlengths on the competition because of the increased boatspeed. The big mistake is waiting too long to decide what you are going to do. If ducking, you'll have to make a radical turn and throw away boat speed and boatlengths from the mark. If tacking, tacking too late and having them sail over top of you and steal your wind. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>; hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com> From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

I found that if the boat in front is pinching or on the verge of a luff or I am getting his bad air, I will simply fall off ease the sheets get the boat up to the faster speed drive under until clear air and start to sheet in a little keeping speed up and in this case there was the Los Angeles break water so I tacked and had to duck his stern. However, I eased out again got the boat speed up and as it came up we sheeted in again, keeping up the boat speed until we had enough speed to tack and cover him with our bad air and beat him up to Point Fermin. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] One Design Tactics (Allen) Thanks! Allen On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: Allen, among the top boats the closing speeds are close to non-existent. If you are in a wind shadow, then you have to tack or crack off for speed. We look more at separation abeam. If you want to sail under someone, then you need to get some distance to lee to minimize shadow effects. In general to windward, tacking is the way out of the problem. But then, if you are on a lay line to a mark, dropping down will put you below the lay line, and tacking will make you over stand. You pays your money and takes your chances. If the distance to the mark is not great, then you just eat it or try to cheat to windward. Need to weigh the difference between the lost speed and the cost of two tacks (that also will carry lost speed). Tacking is an important weapon for matched boats. As for the slower one design boats (where there is closing speed from astern - some question as to how they got in front in the first place - maybe a well timed tack in a shift - or it is a boat in another class), the boats are usually lower pointed as well, so taking them to windward is not a problem. If I were to sequence the important things for boat speed (versus boat tactics), I'd say: 1. Clean bottom 2. Good driver with feel for the conditions 3. Good, well trimmed sails 4. Good crew (of course they participate in the well trimmed sails) My crew would be ticked at this. For the tactics end, good crew moves up the list. But good tactics can only make up so much if your boat is slower. I did some crewing in some "Friday Night Beer Can" cruiser handicap races this summer. I was emergency crew, and there was an emergency almost every week. Sigh... I found that many of the boats had dirty bottoms to varying degrees. It is sadly humorous when a CAL 25 is passing some 40 footer. Cheers Charlie -----Original Message----- From: Allen Edwards [mailto:al… [at] gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Husar, Charlie [USA] Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4455 (20090924) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4455 (20090924) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

That is certainly the theory. I have used it on slightly slower boats and once on an identical but slightly slower L-36. You have expressed it well. The problem I foresee is that with the new rules the boat to weather is no longer required to sail his proper course. He was in the 2008 rules but not in the 2009. So, to defend against me, he could just follow me down, staying close and keeping be in his wind shadow. The time I did it with the other L-36 we were yelling at each other about the rules and probably both distracted. I don't know if it would work against a boat in class under the new rules if the skipper was sharp. That said, I don't think many skippers think that you can pass to leeward so I don't think they are going to defend against it. Great looking polars. Do you happen to know how I can get one for an L-36? Allen On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > Allen, I like your tactic, and it is often one I like to employ. > > Three things to think about > > 1. boat speed is KING. - keep the boat speed at a maximum, SOW and WPV > (waypoint closure velocity = speed to the mark) > 2. "gas" wind shadow turbulence from other boats / your boat slows boats > (use as an defense/offence) > 3. Your boat Polars. > > I saw your strategy and understand it as: assuming you are beating > > Sail up on the transom "out of their wind shadow" at high speed. (If you > point higher to pass then, with most polars the boat will go slower, if you > fall off you typically go into the polar section with more speed.) > > While at "full speed" you fall off and accelerate into your faster polars, > as you are very close to the other boat, his wind shadow is stronger, but > very narrow. > > With your increased speed, and mass of your boat, you coast through his > shadow (if it is a smaller boat then the upper portion of your sails never > see the shadow.) > > As you break the shadow, and fall off again, you are probably again getting > into a faster portion of your polars, while the other boat is possibly > pinching and going into his slow portion of his polars. > > After breaking the shadow, and sailing at your peak polar, you develop more > apparent wind, allowing you so gradually lift back in front of the other > boat, so you can "gas" his sails and cause him to slow down or tack. > > Here's the polars for our Cal 40, as you can note, as you point higher, you > go slower through the water. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:31 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > > > My question really had to do with two boats on the same tack, one trying to > overtake. The question is can you pass close to leeward if the other boat > is the same design but slightly slower due to some difference in weight or > sails. > > That said, your advice is certainly good and I thank you for replying. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Sailing in the best wind is a "secret" of winning. When goin up wind, if >> you must cross the course and another boat to get to it, it is important to >> give up as few boatlengths as possible. A port tack boat needs to decide as >> early as possible if it is going to duck a starboard tack boat. A slight >> helm adjustment can put you across their stern if you do it early enough. >> It can also gain you some boat speed as you are just a little off close >> hauled. as you cross close behind the starbaord boat, you will be lifted. >> Done correctly you should lose no boatlengths from the mark and may actually >> gain boatlengths on the competition because of the increased boatspeed. >> The big mistake is waiting too long to decide what you are going to do. >> If ducking, you'll have to make a radical turn and throw away boat speed >> and boatlengths from the mark. >> If tacking, tacking too late and having them sail over top of you and >> steal your wind. >> Reggie >> >> ------------------------------ >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com >> From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com >> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) >> >> >> > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the >> jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting >> wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking >> about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip >> through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you >> are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the >> windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. >> > > >> > > Charlie >> > > __ >> >> Charlie, >> >> Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 >> design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to >> work? >> >> If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them >> and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if >> the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without >> tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly >> the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day >> weekend. >> >> Allen >> >> > >

On a reach the boat that can surf and catches waves earlier and stays on those waves longer will pass others that do not do so or do not do it as well. Sail up and then catch the wave and drive off, come back to course and set up to catch the next. Even boats that can't surf can use other ways to gain places,on a reach a well sailed boat can sail a course corrected for current and will sail a shorter course than those boats who simply point at the mark in the beginning. Also having a crew that eases the sheet and trims again quickly can add a boat length to 2 boat lengths on a 1 mile reaching leg on a 5k-6k boat.. this is called pumping if it is done to excess and is not permitted but can be used if it is not done constantly. A racer will exploit any and every thing that works for them and their boat and crew. My Best, Mike Farrell From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:28:05 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] mark to mark without tacking I've been told a reaching course is basicly a parade. Tactics have little to do with it, except for local knowledge about currents and an ability to move to puffs others can't get. Beyond that, it is simply boat speed. Faster boats can pass slower boats and move up in the parade. Everything else being equal, boats will probably finish in the order they start. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

You are right, never be concerned to take a stern if it is tactictly the best way because of course placement etc, You will pick up speed when you ease out and fall off. Even if you believe that you can cross on PT and then conditions rule this out, hail and bear away, many times the other boat's crew are distracted when my bow is 18 inches from their boat and it takes them some time to get back to pace and recover. My Best, Mike Farrell From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Barbara <bb… [at] centurytel.net> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:20:36 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) Sailing in the best wind is a "secret" of winning. When goin up wind, if you must cross the course and another boat to get to it, it is important to give up as few boatlengths as possible. A port tack boat needs to decide as early as possible if it is going to duck a starboard tack boat. A slight helm adjustment can put you across their stern if you do it early enough. It can also gain you some boat speed as you are just a little off close hauled. as you cross close behind the starbaord boat, you will be lifted. Done correctly you should lose no boatlengths from the mark and may actually gain boatlengths on the competition because of the increased boatspeed. The big mistake is waiting too long to decide what you are going to do. If ducking, you'll have to make a radical turn and throw away boat speed and boatlengths from the mark. If tacking, tacking too late and having them sail over top of you and steal your wind. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] bah.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] I need to talk to a racer...(Charlie) > > Also, as a near effect, there is some air acceleration from the jib of the forward boat that curls along the sail and appears like a lifting wind when you get close in. This could explain what Allen is taking about. Come up their butt, then duck a little. That is the quickest trip through their wind shadow as long as you have some speed on them. As you are passing to leeward, if you strap in your main some, you may slow the windward boat (windward curl effect), and get by the other boat quicker. > > > > Charlie > > __ Charlie, Do you use this effect to pass a boat to leeward when you are doing 1 design racing or are the boats just too close in speed for this to work? If it won't work, what do you do, just always tack away or follow them and hope for an inside overlap at the next mark? What would you do if the course was such that you can go from mark to mark without tacking? This may sound like a crazy race course but that is exactly the case for the classic wood boat race I do every Memorial Day weekend. Allen

Hello Cal Sailors, Magic's mast is up!!! We stepped it just yesterday evening. There is much yet to be done before next weekend's races, but you can see photos of the progress at http://www.flickr.com/photos/stefsail/sets/72157622081060993/ Thanks again to everyone for their advise and suggestions! --Michael--

The pictures look great! What did you decide to do about the SS to aluminum contact areas? Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Hello Cal Sailors, > > Magic's mast is up!!! We stepped it just yesterday evening. There is much > yet to be done before next weekend's races, but you can see photos of the > progress at http://www.flickr.com/photos/stefsail/sets/72157622081060993/ > > Thanks again to everyone for their advise and suggestions! > > --Michael-- > > >

Allen, The SS fitting to aluminum contact areas (gooseneck in particular) were liberally coated with LifeSeal prior to installation. We used Lanocote on SS fasteners. --Michael-- --- On Mon, 9/28/09, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Magic's Mast Rebuild Project To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 11:12 AM The pictures look great! What did you decide to do about the SS to aluminum contact areas? Allen

I have used LifeSeal as it is one of the only things that will stick to both wood and plexiglass. Why did you pick it for this application? I ask as it is hard to find and I don't keep it around. If using 4200 would be just as good, I would like to know that. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Allen, > > The SS fitting to aluminum contact areas (gooseneck in particular) were > liberally coated with LifeSeal prior to installation. We used Lanocote on > SS fasteners. > > --Michael-- > > --- On *Mon, 9/28/09, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com>*wrote: > > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Magic's Mast Rebuild Project > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 11:12 AM > > > > The pictures look great! What did you decide to do about the SS to > aluminum contact areas? > > Allen > > > >

Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. --Michael-- --- On Mon, 9/28/09, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Magic's Mast Rebuild Project (Allen) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 11:50 AM I have used LifeSeal as it is one of the only things that will stick to both wood and plexiglass. Why did you pick it for this application? I ask as it is hard to find and I don't keep it around. If using 4200 would be just as good, I would like to know that. Allen

5200 would not be a good choice. 4200 is close to Silkaflex 291. I use whichever one I can get. Thanks for the reply and letting me know your logic, which I think is good. I would wonder in this application if the idea of lightly assembling then letting the chalk dry then final tightening would be good. The concern would be that tightening would punch through the chalk and cause metal to metal contact. But then if you don't get any water in there, you should be OK. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Allen, > > I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that > prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two > I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and > I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. > > While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if > need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. > > --Michael-- > > --- On *Mon, 9/28/09, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com>*wrote: > > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Magic's Mast Rebuild Project (Allen) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 11:50 AM > > > > I have used LifeSeal as it is one of the only things that will stick to > both wood and plexiglass. Why did you pick it for this application? I ask > as it is hard to find and I don't keep it around. If using 4200 would be > just as good, I would like to know that. > > Allen > > > >

Michael D wrote: > > > Allen, > > I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something > that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the > mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is > readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. > > While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the > gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work > too. > OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell > >

Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

My shipwright says to use Silkaflex 291-lot if I can find it or 4200 if I can't. Obviously you never want to use 5200 or silicon. I have not tried 4000 and have not been happy with the WestMarine branded LifeCalk. I am interested to hear what others say but as my boat is not fiberglass my experience may not be so important. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Chris Campbell < cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: > > > Michael D wrote: > > > > Allen, > > I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that > prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two > I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and > I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. > > While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if > need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. > > > > > > > > > > > OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 > polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less > adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, > unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. > > Chris Campbell > > > > >

Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > > I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on > my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that > had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. Please note that "LifeCaulk" is the polysulfide product. "LifeSeal" has some silicone in it, and if you've got a boat that requires painting or varnishing, steer away from the latter. Chris Campbell > . > >

Sika makes good products, I used the Sikaflex 295uv to seal my Cal 9.2 lights 6 years ago and it has held up very well. zero leaks after decades of problems [cid:813060418@28092009-225D] I have been using 3M 4000 on my current rebedding effort on the Cal 40, I like it's flexibility (elongation) and surface characteristics (smooth & glossy). It skins over quickly so you must proceed with a good plan if you want your work to look neat. Some Life caulks I've used get chalky, smudge & come off on foul weather gear. As it is my first effort with the 4000 product, time will tell as to it's functioning and durability. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:34 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) My shipwright says to use Silkaflex 291-lot if I can find it or 4200 if I can't. Obviously you never want to use 5200 or silicon. I have not tried 4000 and have not been happy with the WestMarine branded LifeCalk. I am interested to hear what others say but as my boat is not fiberglass my experience may not be so important. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com<mailto:cl… [at] charterinternet.com>> wrote: Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is my situation. The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, Lanocote or Loctite? Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

I once had some aircraft screws that had holes in them so you could secure them with a wire. That and a split lock washer should be the most secure way if you can find the screws. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] < hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > > > Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is > my situation. > > The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and > two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt > all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross > section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go > to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets > a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws > loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, > Lanocote or Loctite? > > Cheers, Anyway > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *ti… [at] ch2m.com > *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More > > I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless > if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] > *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More > > > > Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry > warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. > > I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my > deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had > hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 > carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive > qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the > 4000. > > I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets > onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle > plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and > lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not > permit Loctite to work properly? > > Cheers > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Campbell > *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild > Project ) > > Michael D wrote: > > > > Allen, > > I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that > prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two > I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and > I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. > > While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if > need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. > > > > > > > > > > > OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 > polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less > adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, > unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. > > Chris Campbell > > > > >

Charlie - hard head has hard time picturing. Two ideas and a side thought. 1. consider rivets? with Lanocote. 2. Loctite screws ( let dry), then paint with hot/liquefied Lanocote to bleed into screw/ seal from elements. Tee battery gets stronger when the salty water is added to the dissimilar metals I have dreamed about - but never located a collar insert for thin metals, that expands like a sheet rock anchor when a screw is inserted, to avoid threading thin wall materials. (in concrete well call them wedge anchors). I've thought about setting a rivet, then drilling and tapping the rivet for a hybrid connection.. but not tried yet. maybe we can find or patent? . From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I once had some aircraft screws that had holes in them so you could secure them with a wire. That and a split lock washer should be the most secure way if you can find the screws. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> wrote: Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is my situation. The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, Lanocote or Loctite? Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

Has anyone tried blind rivets? They come in large sizes and better quality than the pop rivets we all know so well. Here is an article of interest. http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note <http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note>They also make blind inserts that are threaded. This company seems to sell a selection http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/avdelmain.htm They put airplanes together with these things but then again they use a lot of them. I have no idea if this is a good idea, just wondering. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > Charlie - hard head has hard time picturing. > > Two ideas and a side thought. > > 1. consider rivets? with Lanocote. > 2. Loctite screws ( let dry), then paint with hot/liquefied Lanocote to > bleed into screw/ seal from elements. Tee battery gets stronger when the > salty water is added to the dissimilar metals > > I have dreamed about - but never located a collar insert for thin metals, > that expands like a sheet rock anchor when a screw is inserted, to avoid > threading thin wall materials. (in concrete well call them wedge anchors). > I've thought about setting a rivet, then drilling and tapping the rivet for > a hybrid connection.. but not tried yet. maybe we can find or patent? > > . > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 11:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More > > > > I once had some aircraft screws that had holes in them so you could secure > them with a wire. That and a split lock washer should be the most secure > way if you can find the screws. > > Allen > > > > On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] < > hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is >> my situation. >> >> The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and >> two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt >> all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross >> section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go >> to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets >> a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws >> loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, >> Lanocote or Loctite? >> >> Cheers, Anyway >> Charlie >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *ti… [at] ch2m.com >> *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More >> >> I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless >> if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] >> *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More >> >> >> >> Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry >> warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. >> >> I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my >> deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had >> hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 >> carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive >> qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the >> 4000. >> >> I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets >> onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle >> plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and >> lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not >> permit Loctite to work properly? >> >> Cheers >> Charlie >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Campbell >> *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild >> Project ) >> >> Michael D wrote: >> >> >> >> Allen, >> >> I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that >> prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two >> I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and >> I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. >> >> While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck >> if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 >> polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less >> adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, >> unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. >> >> Chris Campbell >> >> >> >> > >

Good find Allen, precisely what I was thinking about... dEmO DL(tm) Blind Threaded-Insert Fastening System Benefits<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#benefit> Technical Information<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#technical> Performance Data<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#performance> Order Samples<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/avdelorder.htm> BENEFITS [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d08a.gif] * Splined Body: The splined body provides increased torque-to-turn resistance over conventional non-splined inserts. * Large Flange: Provides a large bearing surface which increases push-out performance. * Wide Grip Range: The range of product within the DLTM series provides a placing capability in material thickness ranging from .020" (0.5mm) to 0.312" (7.9mm). * High-Strength Threads: The threads are rolled into the product creating a work-hardened surface providing high-strength. load-bearing threads. * Lead-In Chamfer: The lead-in chamfer on the body provides ease of insertion into the work piece. [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d12b.gif] TECHNICAL INFORMATION [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d10a.gif] Imperial Series Material Finish DLA-XXXX-XXX Aluminum Clear Protective Coating DLS-XXXX-XXX Steel ASTM 633-85, TYPE II, Fe/Zn8 Zinc Plate and Yellow Dichromate Thread Designation Grip Range Hole +.006 Dia. -.000 Steel Series Aluminum Series A Max. B Nom. M Max. P Ref. D Max. J Max. Imperial Series (all dimension in inches) #6-32 UNC .020-.080 17/64 (.2656) DLS-632-80 DLA-632-80 .265 .375 .460 .275 .032 .390 #6-32 UNC .-080-.130 17/64 (.2656) DLS-632-130 DLA-632-130 .265 .375 .510 .275 .032 .390 #8-32 UNC .020-.080 17/64 (.2656) DLS-832-80 DLA-832-80 .265 .375 .460 .275 .032 .390 #8-32 UNC .080-.130 17/64 (.2656) DLS-832-130 DLA-832-130 .265 .375 .510 .275 .032 .390 #10-24 UNC .020-.130 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1024-130 DLA-1024-130 .296 .400 .515 .300 .037 .450 #10-24 UNC .130-.225 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1024-225 DLA-1024-225 .296 .400 .625 .300 .037 .450 #10-32 UNF .020-.130 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1032-130 DLA-1032-130 .296 .400 .515 .300 .037 .450 #10-32 UNF .130-.225 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1032-225 DLA-1032-225 .296 .400 .625 .300 .037 .450 1/4-20 UNC .027-.165 25/64 (.3906) DLS-420-165 DLA-420-165 .390 .500 .620 .355 .037 .450 1/4-20 UNC .165-.260 25/64 (.3906) DLS-420-260 DLA-420-260 .390 .500 .720 .355 .037 .450 1/4-28 UNF .027-.165 25/64 (.3906) DLS-428-165 DLA-428-165 .390 .500 .620 .355 .037 .450 1/4-28 UNF .165-.260 25/64 (.3906) DLS-428-260 DLA-428-260 .390 .500 .720 .355 .037 .450 5/16-18 UNC .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-518-150 DLA-518-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 5/16-18 UNC .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-518-312 DLA-518-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 5/16-24 UNF .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-524-150 DLA-524-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 5/16-24 UNF .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-524-312 DLA-524-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 3/8-16 UNC .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-616-150 DLA-616-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 3/8-16 UNC .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-616-312 DLA-616-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 3/8-24 UNF .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-624-150 DLA-624-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 3/8-24 UNF .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-624-312 DLA-624-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Has anyone tried blind rivets? They come in large sizes and better quality than the pop rivets we all know so well. Here is an article of interest. http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note <http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note>They also make blind inserts that are threaded. This company seems to sell a selection http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/avdelmain.htm They put airplanes together with these things but then again they use a lot of them. I have no idea if this is a good idea, just wondering. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: Charlie - hard head has hard time picturing. Two ideas and a side thought. 1. consider rivets? with Lanocote. 2. Loctite screws ( let dry), then paint with hot/liquefied Lanocote to bleed into screw/ seal from elements. Tee battery gets stronger when the salty water is added to the dissimilar metals I have dreamed about - but never located a collar insert for thin metals, that expands like a sheet rock anchor when a screw is inserted, to avoid threading thin wall materials. (in concrete well call them wedge anchors). I've thought about setting a rivet, then drilling and tapping the rivet for a hybrid connection.. but not tried yet. maybe we can find or patent? . From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I once had some aircraft screws that had holes in them so you could secure them with a wire. That and a split lock washer should be the most secure way if you can find the screws. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> wrote: Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is my situation. The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, Lanocote or Loctite? Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

Well, Timm, there goes the fortune. My concern with aluminum pop rivets is in the strength. Would want to see how these compare. I have exploded several turning block arrangements out of my mast (halyard blocks near base) that were pop-riveted. I went to nutted machine screws for anything I could reach from the bottom. Now I have gone to the stainless plate under the mast to mount the blocks. Progress? However, farther up the mast is still the problem for tracks (boom and spin) and fittings of various types. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 5:49 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Rivets (with internal threads) Allen (on Charlies behalf) Good find Allen, precisely what I was thinking about... dEmO DL(tm) Blind Threaded-Insert Fastening System Benefits<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#benefit> Technical Information<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#technical> Performance Data<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#performance> Order Samples<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/avdelorder.htm> BENEFITS [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d08a.gif] * Splined Body: The splined body provides increased torque-to-turn resistance over conventional non-splined inserts. * Large Flange: Provides a large bearing surface which increases push-out performance. * Wide Grip Range: The range of product within the DLTM series provides a placing capability in material thickness ranging from .020" (0.5mm) to 0.312" (7.9mm). * High-Strength Threads: The threads are rolled into the product creating a work-hardened surface providing high-strength. load-bearing threads. * Lead-In Chamfer: The lead-in chamfer on the body provides ease of insertion into the work piece. [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d12b.gif] TECHNICAL INFORMATION [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d10a.gif] Imperial Series Material Finish DLA-XXXX-XXX Aluminum Clear Protective Coating DLS-XXXX-XXX Steel ASTM 633-85, TYPE II, Fe/Zn8 Zinc Plate and Yellow Dichromate Thread Designation Grip Range Hole +.006 Dia. -.000 Steel Series Aluminum Series A Max. B Nom. M Max. P Ref. D Max. J Max. Imperial Series (all dimension in inches) #6-32 UNC .020-.080 17/64 (.2656) DLS-632-80 DLA-632-80 .265 .375 .460 .275 .032 .390 #6-32 UNC .-080-.130 17/64 (.2656) DLS-632-130 DLA-632-130 .265 .375 .510 .275 .032 .390 #8-32 UNC .020-.080 17/64 (.2656) DLS-832-80 DLA-832-80 .265 .375 .460 .275 .032 .390 #8-32 UNC .080-.130 17/64 (.2656) DLS-832-130 DLA-832-130 .265 .375 .510 .275 .032 .390 #10-24 UNC .020-.130 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1024-130 DLA-1024-130 .296 .400 .515 .300 .037 .450 #10-24 UNC .130-.225 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1024-225 DLA-1024-225 .296 .400 .625 .300 .037 .450 #10-32 UNF .020-.130 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1032-130 DLA-1032-130 .296 .400 .515 .300 .037 .450 #10-32 UNF .130-.225 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1032-225 DLA-1032-225 .296 .400 .625 .300 .037 .450 1/4-20 UNC .027-.165 25/64 (.3906) DLS-420-165 DLA-420-165 .390 .500 .620 .355 .037 .450 1/4-20 UNC .165-.260 25/64 (.3906) DLS-420-260 DLA-420-260 .390 .500 .720 .355 .037 .450 1/4-28 UNF .027-.165 25/64 (.3906) DLS-428-165 DLA-428-165 .390 .500 .620 .355 .037 .450 1/4-28 UNF .165-.260 25/64 (.3906) DLS-428-260 DLA-428-260 .390 .500 .720 .355 .037 .450 5/16-18 UNC .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-518-150 DLA-518-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 5/16-18 UNC .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-518-312 DLA-518-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 5/16-24 UNF .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-524-150 DLA-524-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 5/16-24 UNF .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-524-312 DLA-524-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 3/8-16 UNC .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-616-150 DLA-616-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 3/8-16 UNC .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-616-312 DLA-616-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 3/8-24 UNF .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-624-150 DLA-624-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 3/8-24 UNF .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-624-312 DLA-624-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Has anyone tried blind rivets? They come in large sizes and better quality than the pop rivets we all know so well. Here is an article of interest. http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note <http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note>They also make blind inserts that are threaded. This company seems to sell a selection http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/avdelmain.htm They put airplanes together with these things but then again they use a lot of them. I have no idea if this is a good idea, just wondering. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: Charlie - hard head has hard time picturing. Two ideas and a side thought. 1. consider rivets? with Lanocote. 2. Loctite screws ( let dry), then paint with hot/liquefied Lanocote to bleed into screw/ seal from elements. Tee battery gets stronger when the salty water is added to the dissimilar metals I have dreamed about - but never located a collar insert for thin metals, that expands like a sheet rock anchor when a screw is inserted, to avoid threading thin wall materials. (in concrete well call them wedge anchors). I've thought about setting a rivet, then drilling and tapping the rivet for a hybrid connection.. but not tried yet. maybe we can find or patent? . From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I once had some aircraft screws that had holes in them so you could secure them with a wire. That and a split lock washer should be the most secure way if you can find the screws. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> wrote: Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is my situation. The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, Lanocote or Loctite? Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell

here's the poop on the fasteners PERFORMANCE DATA Part Number (Imperial) Minimum Performance Torque-To-Turn (lbf-in) Pull Out (lbf) Push Out (lbf) Torque Out (lbf-in) DLS-632-80 10 520 180 47 DLS-632-130 10 520 180 47 DLS-832-80 10 520 180 65 DLS-832-130 10 520 180 65 DLS-1024-130 12 630 335 95 DLS-1024-225 12 630 335 95 DLS-1032-130 12 630 335 95 DLS-1032-225 12 630 335 95 DLS-420-165 12 685 320 235 DLS-420-260 12 685 320 235 DLS-428-165 12 685 320 N/A DLS-428-260 12 685 320 N/A DLS-518-150 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-518-312 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-524-150 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-524-312 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-616-150 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-616-312 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-624-150 24 1115 510 N/A DLS-624-312 24 1115 510 N/A Part Number (Metric) Minimum Performance Torque-To-Turn (Nm) Pull Out (N) Push Out (N) Torque Out (Nm) DLS-470-2,0 1,1 2,3 0,80 6,2 DLS-470-3,3 1,1 2,3 0,80 6,2 DLS-580-3,3 1,4 2,8 1,5 10,7 DLS-580-5,7 1,4 2,8 1,5 10,7 DLS-610-4,2 1,4 3,0 1,4 18,1 DLS-610-6,6 1,4 3,0 1,4 18,1 DLS-8132-3,8 2,7 5,0 2,3 N/A DLS-8132-7,9 2,7 5,0 2,3 N/A DLS-1015-3,8 2,7 5,0 2,3 N/A DLS-1015-7,9 2,7 5,0 2,3 N/A Note: 1. Aluminum performance data available upon request. Top<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm> | TSN<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/tsn.htm> | Large Flange TSN(r)<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/lftsn.htm> | Nutsert(r)<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/nutsert.htm> | Eurosert(r)<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/eurosert.htm> | Hexsert(r)<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/hexsert.htm> | Squaresert(r)<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/square.htm> | | Supersert(r)<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/supersert.htm> | Closed End<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/closed.htm> | DL(tm) Insert<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm> | DK(tm) Insert<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dkinsert.htm> | Placement Tools<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/place.htm>| | Speed Fastening<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/speedmain.htm> | Breakstem Fasteners<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/breakstemmain.htm> | Blind Threaded Inserts<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blindmain.htm> | Structural Fastening<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/structuralmain.htm> | Avdel Cherry Textron Catalog Index<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/avdelcherrymain.htm> [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/images/800logo.jpg] [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/nav/nav.gif] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 3:09 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] RE: Rivets (with internal threads) Allen (on Charlies behalf) Well, Timm, there goes the fortune. My concern with aluminum pop rivets is in the strength. Would want to see how these compare. I have exploded several turning block arrangements out of my mast (halyard blocks near base) that were pop-riveted. I went to nutted machine screws for anything I could reach from the bottom. Now I have gone to the stainless plate under the mast to mount the blocks. Progress? However, farther up the mast is still the problem for tracks (boom and spin) and fittings of various types. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 5:49 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Rivets (with internal threads) Allen (on Charlies behalf) Good find Allen, precisely what I was thinking about... dEmO DL(tm) Blind Threaded-Insert Fastening System Benefits<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#benefit> Technical Information<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#technical> Performance Data<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/dlinsert.htm#performance> Order Samples<http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/avdelorder.htm> BENEFITS [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d08a.gif] * Splined Body: The splined body provides increased torque-to-turn resistance over conventional non-splined inserts. * Large Flange: Provides a large bearing surface which increases push-out performance. * Wide Grip Range: The range of product within the DLTM series provides a placing capability in material thickness ranging from .020" (0.5mm) to 0.312" (7.9mm). * High-Strength Threads: The threads are rolled into the product creating a work-hardened surface providing high-strength. load-bearing threads. * Lead-In Chamfer: The lead-in chamfer on the body provides ease of insertion into the work piece. [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d12b.gif] TECHNICAL INFORMATION [http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/images/d10a.gif] Imperial Series Material Finish DLA-XXXX-XXX Aluminum Clear Protective Coating DLS-XXXX-XXX Steel ASTM 633-85, TYPE II, Fe/Zn8 Zinc Plate and Yellow Dichromate Thread Designation Grip Range Hole +.006 Dia. -.000 Steel Series Aluminum Series A Max. B Nom. M Max. P Ref. D Max. J Max. Imperial Series (all dimension in inches) #6-32 UNC .020-.080 17/64 (.2656) DLS-632-80 DLA-632-80 .265 .375 .460 .275 .032 .390 #6-32 UNC .-080-.130 17/64 (.2656) DLS-632-130 DLA-632-130 .265 .375 .510 .275 .032 .390 #8-32 UNC .020-.080 17/64 (.2656) DLS-832-80 DLA-832-80 .265 .375 .460 .275 .032 .390 #8-32 UNC .080-.130 17/64 (.2656) DLS-832-130 DLA-832-130 .265 .375 .510 .275 .032 .390 #10-24 UNC .020-.130 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1024-130 DLA-1024-130 .296 .400 .515 .300 .037 .450 #10-24 UNC .130-.225 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1024-225 DLA-1024-225 .296 .400 .625 .300 .037 .450 #10-32 UNF .020-.130 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1032-130 DLA-1032-130 .296 .400 .515 .300 .037 .450 #10-32 UNF .130-.225 19/64 (.2969) DLS-1032-225 DLA-1032-225 .296 .400 .625 .300 .037 .450 1/4-20 UNC .027-.165 25/64 (.3906) DLS-420-165 DLA-420-165 .390 .500 .620 .355 .037 .450 1/4-20 UNC .165-.260 25/64 (.3906) DLS-420-260 DLA-420-260 .390 .500 .720 .355 .037 .450 1/4-28 UNF .027-.165 25/64 (.3906) DLS-428-165 DLA-428-165 .390 .500 .620 .355 .037 .450 1/4-28 UNF .165-.260 25/64 (.3906) DLS-428-260 DLA-428-260 .390 .500 .720 .355 .037 .450 5/16-18 UNC .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-518-150 DLA-518-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 5/16-18 UNC .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-518-312 DLA-518-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 5/16-24 UNF .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-524-150 DLA-524-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 5/16-24 UNF .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-524-312 DLA-524-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 3/8-16 UNC .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-616-150 DLA-616-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 3/8-16 UNC .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-616-312 DLA-616-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 3/8-24 UNF .027-.150 17/32 (.5312) DLS-624-150 DLA-624-150 .530 .670 .735 .430 .042 .740 3/8-24 UNF .150-.312 17/32 (.5312) DLS-624-312 DLA-624-312 .530 .670 .850 .430 .042 .740 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Has anyone tried blind rivets? They come in large sizes and better quality than the pop rivets we all know so well. Here is an article of interest. http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note <http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html#note>They also make blind inserts that are threaded. This company seems to sell a selection http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/avdelmain.htm They put airplanes together with these things but then again they use a lot of them. I have no idea if this is a good idea, just wondering. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: Charlie - hard head has hard time picturing. Two ideas and a side thought. 1. consider rivets? with Lanocote. 2. Loctite screws ( let dry), then paint with hot/liquefied Lanocote to bleed into screw/ seal from elements. Tee battery gets stronger when the salty water is added to the dissimilar metals I have dreamed about - but never located a collar insert for thin metals, that expands like a sheet rock anchor when a screw is inserted, to avoid threading thin wall materials. (in concrete well call them wedge anchors). I've thought about setting a rivet, then drilling and tapping the rivet for a hybrid connection.. but not tried yet. maybe we can find or patent? . From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I once had some aircraft screws that had holes in them so you could secure them with a wire. That and a split lock washer should be the most secure way if you can find the screws. Allen On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> wrote: Yeah, Timm, I was thinking that same thing with some trepidation. Here is my situation. The spreader brackets mount to the mast with one sleeved through-bolt and two screws that thread into the mast. Don't think I want to through-bolt all 3 (surfaces not flat, holes to big, don't want to compress cross section, et al). The thread-in screws used to be self tappers, but I may go to 10 or 12 machine screw with fine thread, and tap the mast. The area gets a fair amount of motion from the spreaders that ultimately works the screws loose. Screws are stainless. Mast is aluminum. Lesser of two evils, Lanocote or Loctite? Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:26 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] RE: Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More I would think that Lanocote "a lubricant" would render locktite useless if they were mixed on surfaces... Lanocote is "greasy wax". From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:28 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & Adhesives & Stainless & More Hi, All. Please note that some parts (e.g., Spinlock rope clutches) carry warnings on what you can and can't use to bed them. I always used 3M 101 (or Life Seal depending on what was available) on my deck hardware mounting, until I bought a couple tubes of 101 that had hardened inside tube as they came from the store. I note that the 3M 4200 carries a "medium" rating whereas the 5200 carries a "high" for adhesive qualities. I have been using the 4200 of late, but will check into the 4000. I am about to mount a couple newly built stainless steel spreader brackets onto the aluminum mast on a CAL 25. I plan to use 2 litre coke bottle plastic as a pad between the parts with lanocote on both sides of it, and lanocote on the mounting screws. Would one suppose that lanocote does not permit Loctite to work properly? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 1:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Caulks & adhesives (was Magic's Mast Rebuild Project ) Michael D wrote: Allen, I basically used LifeSeal for two reasons: for one I wanted something that prevents water from getting in between the SS gooseneck and the mast and two I had it on the boat. Here in south FL, LifeSeal is readily available, and I use it for bedding all of my deck hardware. While 5200 would also work, I wanted the ability to remove the gooseneck if need. I have never used 4200, but I'm sure it would work too. OK, Cal sailors, how about 3M 4000, their replacement for their former 101 polysulfide product? The purported advantage of 4000 is that it's less adhesive than 5200 or 4200. I usually buy LifeCaulk, a polysulfide product, unless I want the adhesive qualities of 4200. Chris Campbell