Cal 24 repair needed

We just pulled our Santana 20 for the winter so it is time to start working on our Cal 24 restoration. The boat had been stored until 4 years ago full of water in the interior (up to the gunwales). So a lot of the interior needs redoing. On to my question; benches and flooring are relatively easy to replace (or at least I think anyway). We need to strip the boat from the front bulkhead all the way back due to wood rot. The front bulkhead is part of the mast support, but there are two bulkhead type panels that run from the floor up the side of the boat, glassed in to the sides of the boat, that are partially rotted out. They may be supports for the roof just abow of the opening hatch area. Does anyone know if these bulkheads are necessary support structures for the roofline? Or are they simply decorative panels? If we can remove them and not suffer structural strength, then we can make longer benches for sleeping inside (going to use the boat for a weekend cruiser). Anyone out there with experience or knowledge about this boats' design who can help out with ideas? Martin

Martin I own a Cal 24 Mk 1, the oldie, is that what U have, or a Mk II that looks like a Cal 25 but with less windows? The Mk 1 has a separate cabin/dog house, with small side decks. One of our dearly departed members, Roger Jones, together with Bill Lapworth, was making blue prints available to list members some yars ago, I would have gotten a set for a paltry $100 but I thought I would someday get a larger boat and couldn't see the point of having a set, now I'm outtah luck except I understand the blue prints went to Mystic Seaport. Get a bigger Cal? I'll be lucky to hang on,... hang on, to what I've got! Sometime someone makes you an offer and you shouldn't refuse it. Oh phooey! Let us know. I think the bulkheads, especially the forward one, are pretty important, especially with regards to holding up the mast! Jerry --- On Sat, 10/3/09, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: From: Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 24 repair needed To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: "Martin Klos" <sk… [at] skydocs.com> Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 9:27 PM We just pulled our Santana 20 for the winter so it is time to start working on our Cal 24 restoration. The boat had been stored until 4 years ago full of water in the interior (up to the gunwales). So a lot of the interior needs redoing. On to my question; benches and flooring are relatively easy to replace (or at least I think anyway). We need to strip the boat from the front bulkhead all the way back due to wood rot. The front bulkhead is part of the mast support, but there are two bulkhead type panels that run from the floor up the side of the boat, glassed in to the sides of the boat, that are partially rotted out. They may be supports for the roof just abow of the opening hatch area. Does anyone know if these bulkheads are necessary support structures for the roofline? Or are they simply decorative panels? If we can remove them and not suffer structural strength, then we can make longer benches for sleeping inside (going to use the boat for a weekend cruiser). Anyone out there with experience or knowledge about this boats' design who can help out with ideas? Martin

My Cal 24 is a 64, MK1 with the doghouse and the side walk area to go forward, and yes the front Bulkhead is integral with the mast support system. The one that has the wood rot in it is the second bulkhead approximately 24 inches to the stern from the mast support bulkhead. If anyone knows where to get a set of blueprints for this version I would love to get my hands on them. We are like you, thinking someday of finding a larger boat for cruising. This one had an intact and strong hull, and decent rigging, but needed so much work inside that the owner sold it for $1000 with trailer. My thinking was to learn as much as I could rebuilding it, that we could eventually graduate to another larger boat that also needed a rebuild. It is our way to keep costs down while having weekend fun during the summer (our sailing season runs here from April 1st to October 1st until we work out a decent trailering system). As we rebuild the interior we wanted to try to make it more comfortable for my 6 foot frame, hence the need for long settee couches on the sides to make into a decent sized bed (the V berth is big enough perhaps for children). If the sternward bulkheads are needed for roofline strength then I will engineer a replacement we can glass in like the originals, and then extend the settee backwards under the rear deck of the boat. Martin Klos

Martin, Just briefly, My Cal is #71, so it should be same as yours. Are the vertical walls on your settee wood or fiberglass? Later boats were factory built (mine was a kit) and had fiberglass, smaller V berth area and different mast support set up. I'm 6'4" and both settee and V berths have 6'6" of length, Bill Lapworth was 6'5" so Cal's have the longest berth's you'll find anywhere. I can stretch out full length and still have a bit of room for a pillow. I think I'll have to look at the inside of my boat to be sure what you're talking about. The two forward bulkheads span the center beam forward and stern-ward, which supports the mast, I think, but as I say, I'll have to double check that. I do believe the sternward of those bulkheads is the most important one, it's the one that has the roof spaning beam attached to it, unless yours is somehow different. I think later boats were, but I'm not sure how. A sagging beam is a hallmark of dry rot in the plywood overhead, something I just about chew my nails about, as my tabernacle fitting is just about welded to the with corroded screws, so when I fixed it I just dug out the corrosion between it and the cabin roof, and shoved West Systems mixed with silica under it to support the weight of the mast...so far...so good, I did it about four years ago. That spanning beam takes a huge amount of weight and stress and pounding. The PO added/sandwiched some supports to either side of that plywood bulkhead, starboard and port, to stiffen and support it, and in fact, my roof beam has a slight sag which hasn't gotten worse, and a small tear in the fiberglass that surrounds it dead center where the fore-aft support beam T's into it and holds up the mast, sets. I attributed the tear to over tightened shrouds, which I discovered after my first sail, inside Channel Islands Harbor, in 15 knots of wind. Channel Islands Harbor has some hellayshus winds and sudden wind changes, which is why my girl friend will never go sailing with me again, I "dumped her in the ocean[it was just in front of the public launch ramp]" when the Capri 14 we rented went on its side and she stepped on the base of the mast and jumped in in a total panic attack. Good thing I'm a former lifeguard! Jerry --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: From: Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 24 repair needed(Martin) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: "Martin Klos" <sk… [at] skydocs.com> Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 10:16 AM My Cal 24 is a 64, MK1 with the doghouse and the side walk area to go forward, and yes the front Bulkhead is integral with the mast support system. The one that has the wood rot in it is the second bulkhead approximately 24 inches to the stern from the mast support bulkhead. If anyone knows where to get a set of blueprints for this version I would love to get my hands on them. We are like you, thinking someday of finding a larger boat for cruising. This one had an intact and strong hull, and decent rigging, but needed so much work inside that the owner sold it for $1000 with trailer. My thinking was to learn as much as I could rebuilding it, that we could eventually graduate to another larger boat that also needed a rebuild. It is our way to keep costs down while having weekend fun during the summer (our sailing season runs here from April 1st to October 1st until we work out a decent trailering system). As we rebuild the interior we wanted to try to make it more comfortable for my 6 foot frame, hence the need for long settee couches on the sides to make into a decent sized bed (the V berth is big enough perhaps for children). If the sternward bulkheads are needed for roofline strength then I will engineer a replacement we can glass in like the originals, and then extend the settee backwards under the rear deck of the boat. Martin Klos

I asked a knowledgeable friend who forwarded me this note. Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the Cal 24, as in all boats, bulkheads are structural. (This runs counter to some people's thinking on the Cal List.) There is a great tendency amongst owners to personalize boats viewing the structure similar to a watch; upon reassembly, there are many unnecessary pieces. Besides, Builders always over build. The vertical piece running parallel to the bunk is a bilge stringer which serves two purpose; it stiffens the bilge near the garboard and conveniently provides support for the bunk. On the later 24's, the floorpan was fiberglass and integrally bonded to the hull. Mahogany bulkheads were still installed, bonded to the hull and deck and mechanically fastened at appropriate points. Care should be taken when removing the rotted bulkheads since they are invaluable as patterns. If mahogany is not being used for the replacement structural components, ACX plywood can be used as a substitute. If available, specify "all Douglas Fir" when ordering. Regular ACX uses pine on the sanded finished side since it sands easier and has a smoother finish. The down side is polyester resin does not bond well to the sap in pine. Prior to bonding, sand the wood with 80 grit to remove the glazing form the manufacturer and and all of the hull surfaces with no less than 36 grit paper using a 4 inch grinder. Do not use the 4 1/2 since they are too stiff and will gouge the hull. From the waterline up and near the rail the hull thins down to 3/16 of an inch thick. On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: > > > We just pulled our Santana 20 for the winter so it is time to start > working on our Cal 24 restoration. The boat had been stored until 4 > years ago full of water in the interior (up to the gunwales). So a lot > of the interior needs redoing. > > On to my question; benches and flooring are relatively easy to replace > (or at least I think anyway). We need to strip the boat from the front > bulkhead all the way back due to wood rot. The front bulkhead is part > of the mast support, but there are two bulkhead type panels that run > from the floor up the side of the boat, glassed in to the sides of the > boat, that are partially rotted out. They may be supports for the roof > just abow of the opening hatch area. Does anyone know if these > bulkheads are necessary support structures for the roofline? Or are > they simply decorative panels? If we can remove them and not suffer > structural strength, then we can make longer benches for sleeping > inside (going to use the boat for a weekend cruiser). > > Anyone out there with experience or knowledge about this boats' design > who can help out with ideas? > Martin > >

You got me with that former lifeguard line. I thought for sure the former was going to be the girlfriend. Allen On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Martin, > Just briefly, My Cal is #71, so it should be same as yours. Are the vertical walls on your settee wood or fiberglass? Later boats were factory built (mine was a kit) and had fiberglass, smaller V berth area and different mast support set up. I'm 6'4" and both settee and V berths have 6'6" of length, Bill Lapworth was 6'5" so Cal's have the longest berth's you'll find anywhere. I can stretch out full length and still have a bit of room for a pillow. > > I think I'll have to look at the inside of my boat to be sure what you're talking about. The two forward bulkheads span the center beam forward and stern-ward, which supports the mast, I think, but as I say, I'll have to double check that. I do believe the sternward of those bulkheads is the most important one, it's the one that has the roof spaning beam attached to it, unless yours is somehow different. I think later boats were, but I'm not sure how. A sagging beam is a hallmark of dry rot in the plywood overhead, something I just about chew my nails about, as my tabernacle fitting is just about welded to the with corroded screws, so when I fixed it I just dug out the corrosion between it and the cabin roof, and shoved West Systems mixed with silica under it to support the weight of the mast...so far...so good, I did it about four years ago. > > That spanning beam takes a huge amount of weight and stress and pounding. The PO added/sandwiched some supports to either side of that plywood bulkhead, starboard and port, to stiffen and support it, and in fact, my roof beam has a slight sag which hasn't gotten worse, and a small tear in the fiberglass that surrounds it dead center where the fore-aft support beam T's into it and holds up the mast, sets. I attributed the tear to over tightened shrouds, which I discovered after my first sail, inside Channel Islands Harbor, in 15 knots of wind. Channel Islands Harbor has some hellayshus winds and sudden wind changes, which is why my girl friend will never go sailing with me again, I "dumped her in the ocean[it was just in front of the public launch ramp]" when the Capri 14 we rented went on its side and she stepped on the base of the mast and jumped in in a total panic attack. Good thing I'm a former lifeguard! > > Jerry > > --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: > > From: Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 24 repair needed(Martin) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: "Martin Klos" <sk… [at] skydocs.com> > Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 10:16 AM > > > > My Cal 24 is a 64, MK1 with the doghouse and the side walk area to go > forward, and yes the front Bulkhead is integral with the mast support > system. The one that has the wood rot in it is the second bulkhead > approximately 24 inches to the stern from the mast support bulkhead. > If anyone knows where to get a set of blueprints for this version I > would love to get my hands on them. > > We are like you, thinking someday of finding a larger boat for > cruising. This one had an intact and strong hull, and decent rigging, > but needed so much work inside that the owner sold it for $1000 with > trailer. My thinking was to learn as much as I could rebuilding it, > that we could eventually graduate to another larger boat that also > needed a rebuild. It is our way to keep costs down while having > weekend fun during the summer (our sailing season runs here from April > 1st to October 1st until we work out a decent trailering system). As > we rebuild the interior we wanted to try to make it more comfortable > for my 6 foot frame, hence the need for long settee couches on the > sides to make into a decent sized bed (the V berth is big enough > perhaps for children). If the sternward bulkheads are needed for > roofline strength then I will engineer a replacement we can glass in > like the originals, and then extend the settee backwards under the > rear deck of the boat. > Martin Klos > >

Allan, Gerald and "Knowledgeable friend"; Thanks to all. Now I have a plan of approach for the repair. Martin

Martin, I haven't been down to my boat, but I think you are right, it's the forward of the two cabin bulkheads that's the beam support, ahead of the galley counter on port and cabinet where I park my cooler, on starboard. But I still say the quarter berths are huge, and ditto for the v berths, except v berth wize the factory v berths are significantly shorter. Gad, I love my Cal 24, it is so fun, like a cruising surf board. I love being down low close to the water, and the shallow draft let's you go where other boats can't. Put three or four on board and it sails flatter than bigger boats because of it's wide beam, but unfortunately, mostly, it's mostly tippy in heavy air with one or two, but not so much that it tips over. My crew sits on the skinny side deck next to the cabin and keeps the boat pretty flat going upwind, but he does get wet sometimes. I wish we could use a trapeze in heavy aire! That would really be fun. I've seen a photo of a Cal 20 doing it, but it can't possibly be race legal! Jerry --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: From: Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 24 repair needed To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: "Martin Klos" <sk… [at] skydocs.com> Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 8:00 PM Allan, Gerald and "Knowledgeable friend"; Thanks to all. Now I have a plan of approach for the repair. Martin

LOL, and "race legal" means what? Sorry, we are new to racing, only in our second year now. We have figured out by now that if it is to be fun, we are gonna do it, because for dang sure, as newbies we are non competitive. At this point the only rules that affect us are the ones that keep us from hitting someone else. The trapeze idea sounds like a lot of fun, I can see my wife hanging out in the breeze right now! Martin

It all depends on the "class rules or the sailing instructions" Here are the sections of the racing rules that you might want to look at. 43 COMPETITOR CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT 43.1 (a) Competitors shall not wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purpose of increasing their weight. (b) Furthermore, a competitor’s clothing and equipment shall not weigh more than 8 kilograms, excluding a hiking or trapeze harness and clothing (including footwear) worn only below the knee. Class rules or sailing instructions may specify a lower weight or a higher weight up to 10 kilograms. Class rules may include footwear and other clothing worn below the knee within that weight. A hiking or trapeze harness shall have positive buoyancy and shall not weigh more than 2 kilograms, except that class rules may specify a higher weight up to 4 kilograms. Weights shall be determined as required by Appendix H. (c) When an equipment inspector or a measurer in charge of weighing clothing and equipment believes a competitor may have broken rule 43.1(a) or 43.1(b) he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee. 43.2 Rule 43.1(b) does not apply to boats required to be equipped with lifelines. 49 CREW POSITION 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn under the thighs. 49.2 When lifelines are required by the they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any part of their torsos outside them, except briefly to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines of wire, a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline. On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Martin, > I haven't been down to my boat, but I think you are right, it's the forward of the two cabin bulkheads that's the beam support, ahead of the galley counter on port and cabinet where I park my cooler, on starboard. But I still say the quarter berths are huge, and ditto for the v berths, except v berth wize the factory v berths are significantly shorter. > > Gad, I love my Cal 24, it is so fun, like a cruising surf board. I love being down low close to the water, and the shallow draft let's you go where other boats can't. Put three or four on board and it sails flatter than bigger boats because of it's wide beam, but unfortunately, mostly, it's mostly tippy in heavy air with one or two, but not so much that it tips over. > My crew sits on the skinny side deck next to the cabin and keeps the boat pretty flat going upwind, but he does get wet sometimes. I wish we could use a trapeze in heavy aire! That would really be fun. > > I've seen a photo of a Cal 20 doing it, but it can't possibly be race legal! > Jerry > > --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: > > From: Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 24 repair needed > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: "Martin Klos" <sk… [at] skydocs.com> > Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 8:00 PM > > > > Allan, Gerald and "Knowledgeable friend"; Thanks to all. Now I have > a plan of approach for the repair. > Martin > >

I do understand the rules, but in reality we are so slow still that if we get disqualified for a trapeze, we still had a great time on the water. Turns out no one seems to protest the behavior of the last boat in the race, we figure they cant even see us most of the time. Martin

Well, it turns out I have been studying this because I have added a second lifeline so my crew can put their body outside the upper lifeline. But I used amsteel. The rules specify steel. But, as there is no rule even requiring me to have lifelines I think I am safe. I have been a perpetual 2nd and hope to improve so I could be protested if I am reading it wrong. Allen On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Martin Klos <sk… [at] skydocs.com> wrote: > > > I do understand the rules, but in reality we are so slow still that if > we get disqualified for a trapeze, we still had a great time on the > water. Turns out no one seems to protest the behavior of the last > boat in the race, we figure they cant even see us most of the time. > Martin > >

Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > > > Gad, I love my Cal 24, it is so fun, like a cruising surf board. I > love being down low close to the water, and the shallow draft let's > you go where other boats can't. Put three or four on board and it > sails flatter than bigger boats because of it's wide beam, but > unfortunately, mostly, it's mostly tippy in heavy air with one or two, > but not so much that it tips over. > My crew sits on the skinny side deck next to the cabin and keeps the > boat pretty flat going upwind, but he does get wet sometimes. > This pretty much describes my other boat, a 26' 3" 1961 Bill Tripp keel/centerboarder. She's got hard bilges to give some form stability but still is quite tender compared to my Cal 20. I sail her single- or double-handed most often so there's not much chance to put weight outboard. Besides, my crews generally object to siting out there and getting wet (we're not talking hard-core sailors here). The original owner of my Cal 20 had looked at this boat before we bought her. He reported "she's kinda tender, ain't she?" and he was right. The Cal 20 is a lot less tender and faster, too, in most conditions, with only a foot less on the waterline but less than half as heavy (4,750 vs 1,950 lbs published displacement). Chris Campbell > >

There is a cal 20 racing on SF Bay with a full on trapeze. I have watched his performance in heavy air and bumpy seas and it is astonishing what this set up will do! He takes a small phrf penalty. His rating certificate can be seen on NOR CAL PHRF web. Can'o whoopass( rather interesting name) He has won a lot of races and I expect that his generous rating will be changed for 2010. How about an A chute set on a sprit? If the sprit does not articulate---NO PENALTY!!! However you are only rated for 1 chute so you must decide on a S chute whose pole can be squared back on a deep run or an A chute that needs 165 degrees and won't go well DDW. GGYC Friday nite races are mostly DDW. and the reaches when we have them are close. Midwinters are another matter ; wind comes from all over and can hoot or be a drifter, this may be just the time for the A chute. MY Best, Mike Farrell , Rambler Cal 20 # 1114 and Coyote Cal 20 #61 From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 6:49:16 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stability, trapezes, was..Re: Cal 24 repair needed Gerald Sobel wrote: > > >Gad, I love my Cal 24, it is so fun, like a cruising surf board. I love being down low close to the water, and the shallow draft let's you go where other boats can't. Put three or four on board and it sails flatter than bigger boats because of it's wide beam, but unfortunately, mostly, it's mostly tippy in heavy air with one or two, but not so much that it tips over. >My crew sits on the skinny side deck next to the cabin and keeps the boat pretty flat going upwind, but he does get wet sometimes. This pretty much describes my other boat, a 26' 3" 1961 Bill Tripp keel/centerboarder. She's got hard bilges to give some form stability but still is quite tender compared to my Cal 20. I sail her single- or double-handed most often so there's not much chance to put weight outboard. Besides, my crews generally object to siting out there and getting wet (we're not talking hard-core sailors here). The original owner of my Cal 20 had looked at this boat before we bought her. He reported "she's kinda tender, ain't she?" and he was right. The Cal 20 is a lot less tender and faster, too, in most conditions, with only a foot less on the waterline but less than half as heavy (4,750 vs 1,950 lbs published displacement). Chris Campbell >

the boat which is having the most fun wins! reggie CC: sk… [at] skydocs.com To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: sk… [at] skydocs.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:14:47 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stability, trapezes, was..Re: Cal 24 repair needed LOL, and "race legal" means what? Sorry, we are new to racing, only in our second year now. We have figured out by now that if it is to be fun, we are gonna do it, because for dang sure, as newbies we are non competitive. At this point the only rules that affect us are the ones that keep us from hitting someone else. The trapeze idea sounds like a lot of fun, I can see my wife hanging out in the breeze right now! Martin