Re: Boat Heater

I have a dickinson diesel heater in our boat and I wouldn't own another boat without one. Its not difficult to reach temperatures up to and including 80-90 F in the cabin. If you're worried about power consumption you can use a gravity fed tank. I use a small electric pump which hardly uses anything but again a gravity system works too. There's a tiny fan that uses a little power, but usually I don't use the fan unless its blowing over 15 knots. http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/ Frans Cal 2-29 "Laissez Faire" Seattle, WA

How do they hold up over time. Its just my nature but when a product says limited one year warranty the question needs to be asked. My home furnace came with a 10 year warranty and was far more sophisticated then the dickinson. Im not knocking the quality by any means just wondering say in five years time what this beauty will look and function like. The drip feed system is interesting. Any resources on line where I can find more information about that setup, as this is what initially attracted me to the Refleks. Best regards and many thanks Chris H.

Chris, Not necessarily apples and oranges, but my Dickinson propane heater has never skipped a beat in 10 years. Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:09 PM, chris123 wrote: > How do they hold up over time.

No not a problem thats the kind of data that is good to hear. Many thanks. /ch

I installed my Dickinson when we lived aboard in New Jersey. Ours is the diesel fired fireplace with an electric fuel pump and draws very little electricity. We also put high efficiency fans along the sides of the headliner (3 in all) to keep the heat spread through the boat. This heater ran continuously from November to April for 3 years without a hitch. Highly recommend the "H" chimney cap on exterior as wind direction did not matter with this cap. We bought ours after a neighbor returned his to the factory after 4 years of New Jersey use and they repaired the heater and returned it to him with no bill, just shipping costs. I think this is a small firm and the words of the warranty are protection for over zealous consumers -- treat Dickinson fairly and they will treat you fairly. One indication of the size of the company is the hand drawn instruction sheets that came with the fireplace! Our heater is now 11 years old and no problems whatsoever. Don't use it much now here in California! Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 1:09:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Boat Heater How do they hold up over time. Its just my nature but when a product says limited one year warranty the question needs to be asked. My home furnace came with a 10 year warranty and was far more sophisticated then the dickinson. Im not knocking the quality by any means just wondering say in five years time what this beauty will look and function like. The drip feed system is interesting. Any resources on line where I can find more information about that setup, as this is what initially attracted me to the Refleks. Best regards and many thanks Chris H.

Thanks. Thats the kind of data I was looking for. Best regards and thanks /ch On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net>wrote: > > > I installed my Dickinson when we lived aboard in New Jersey. Ours is the > diesel fired fireplace with an electric fuel pump and draws very little > electricity. We also put high efficiency fans along the sides of the > headliner (3 in all) to keep the heat spread through the boat. This heater > ran continuously from November to April for 3 years without a hitch. Highly > recommend the "H" chimney cap on exterior as wind direction did not matter > with this cap. > > We bought ours after a neighbor returned his to the factory after 4 years > of New Jersey use and they repaired the heater and returned it to him with > no bill, just shipping costs. I think this is a small firm and the words of > the warranty are protection for over zealous consumers -- treat Dickinson > fairly and they will treat you fairly. One indication of the size of the > company is the hand drawn instruction sheets that came with the fireplace! > > Our heater is now 11 years old and no problems whatsoever. Don't use it > much now here in California! > > Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" > > "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you > didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail > away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. > Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, February 15, 2010 1:09:45 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Boat Heater > > > > How do they hold up over time. Its just my nature but when a product says > limited one year warranty the question needs to be asked. My home furnace > came with a 10 year warranty and was far more sophisticated then the > dickinson. Im not knocking the quality by any means just wondering say in > five years time what this beauty will look and function like. > > The drip feed system is interesting. Any resources on line where I can find > more information about that setup, as this is what initially attracted me to > the Refleks. > > Best regards and many thanks > > Chris H. > > > -- /ch

I'd say 90% of the workboats that run year-round up here have Dickinson's in them, often running for weeks at a time. Starting them is a bit involved and dirty, but once they get going they're great. Another option is the Dickinson propane if you have propane onboard (I do for cooking). They have a nice system where the intake air comes down the outside of the chimney and exhaust up the middle. They pull a BIT of 12V power for the fan, but far less than a forced-air system. BTW: their BBQs are nice too! druid "Coatue" Crown 28 chris123 wrote: > > > How do they hold up over time. Its just my nature but when a product > says limited one year warranty the question needs to be asked. My home > furnace came with a 10 year warranty and was far more sophisticated > then the dickinson. Im not knocking the quality by any means just > wondering say in five years time what this beauty will look and > function like. > > The drip feed system is interesting. Any resources on line where I can > find more information about that setup, as this is what initially > attracted me to the Refleks. > > Best regards and many thanks > > Chris H. > > >

Chris: We have an old Force 10 Propane in our 34. Lot's of really very wet heat when it worked. The newer style draws air from outside and returns exhaust outside and is suppose to be a drier heat. I just bought $1,100 worth of Dickerson diesel heater bits. 5 boxes and they are all stuffed in the quarter berth for now. Like mentioned before, Dickerson diesel's are on most boats these days. EVERYONE seemed to love theirs in our marina. I chose to install diesel over propane for one main reason: I carry far more diesel (33 gallons) than propane (2½ pounds.) I am currently installing a new 33 gallon, custom made, heavy duty, ridiculously expensive, aluminum fuel tank. I had it made with supply and return fittings to accommodate the new heater. Good luck! Danny --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, chris123 <chris.herrnberger@...> wrote: > > How do they hold up over time. Its just my nature but when a product says > limited one year warranty the question needs to be asked. My home furnace > came with a 10 year warranty and was far more sophisticated then the > dickinson. <SNIP>

Exactly, thats my concern. Propane generates water as a by product of combustion. I did not think this would be the case for catalytic reactions that models such as the Blackcat use. So I went ahead and purchased one in Canada at a rediculouse price in comparison to here in the States, read 2:1 price, but got a steel on a 25lbs fibreglass tank filled from Home Depot for 35 CDN...no kidding. One day special, called everyone I knew to get one. Also picked up a nipple from Amazon that allows refilling of green bottles, of which I am now down to approx 1/3 in the 25lbs. The issue with the newer models of propane heaters is that my suspicion (not verified)), is that the flue wold be subjected to fatigue and corrosion due to moisture buildup and heat differentials in the pipe. So I cannot see a propane heater as a one time purchase. I could be completely wrong however as I'm just speculating on what I seen. The blackcat throws off so much water that condensation in these temperatures is no longer controllable so as I'm tied to a dock, three ceramic heaters currently keep the boat and engine compartment warm and dry. This is not a viable solution however once underway. That one still has to be worked out. Thanks for the info and best regards Chris H.

When we lived aboard we faced very cold temps down to -15 degrees Fahrenheit for several days and below freezing for months. We averted moisture build up by running a metal (aluminum) dryer vent pipe from the dorade box on the port side down to just below the Dickinson heater. The heater vents exhaust gases through a deck plate -- very heavy, finned stainless steel unit -- and out of the boat. This system meant that the warm interior air was not used for combustion -- the cold outside air from the dorade box supplied the burner. Natural draft was sufficient -- no fan required. We had no significant moisture issues using this heating system. An additional benefit to using the vessel's main tank for fuel supply for the heater was the constant turnover of diesel fuel throughout the winter leaving us with a very clean fuel supply for the engine the next spring. We burned about 90 gallons over a typical winter -- tell that to a home owner in the northeast with oil heat -- which turned our 24 gallon tank over nearly 4 times. The one thing I will do in the future should I ever need to remove our current diesel tank is install a separate pick up for the Dickinson. Right now we use a Y-valve at the pick up and either the engine is running or the Dickinson is running -- not both at the same time. Would have been really useful when we moved the boat from Route 50 bridge marina to Wharton Creek on the Chesapeake to have had the heater running down below while motoring in 20 degree temperatures. We used hour on- hour off watch system and still got quite cold! Within an hour of tying up at the dock we had the interior warming up with the Dickinson fired up! As the boat heated up we could hear the ice accumulated on the bow sloughing off. Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: Danny <db… [at] easystreet.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 6:03:31 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Boat Heater Chris: We have an old Force 10 Propane in our 34. Lot's of really very wet heat when it worked. The newer style draws air from outside and returns exhaust outside and is suppose to be a drier heat. I just bought $1,100 worth of Dickerson diesel heater bits. 5 boxes and they are all stuffed in the quarter berth for now. Like mentioned before, Dickerson diesel's are on most boats these days. EVERYONE seemed to love theirs in our marina. I chose to install diesel over propane for one main reason: I carry far more diesel (33 gallons) than propane (2½ pounds.) I am currently installing a new 33 gallon, custom made, heavy duty, ridiculously expensive, aluminum fuel tank. I had it made with supply and return fittings to accommodate the new heater. Good luck! Danny --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, chris123 <chris.herrnberger@ ...> wrote: > > How do they hold up over time. Its just my nature but when a product says > limited one year warranty the question needs to be asked. My home furnace > came with a 10 year warranty and was far more sophisticated then the > dickinson. <SNIP>

This is really clevour and noted. i had a similar system setup in my home for the mid efficiency gas furnace. The only change was that I ran the flexible pipe into a 5 gallon bucket next to the furnace to create a cold air dam. In this way the cold air was not spilling into the basement rather was blocked by the natural cold air dam in the bucket. When the furnace turned on if of course had a fresh air supply as the cold air dam disappeared and exterior air was sucked into the basement via the pipe. Worked really well and kept the basement warm. Best regards and thanks /ch

chris123 wrote: > > > This is really clevour and noted. i had a similar system setup in my > home for the mid efficiency gas furnace. The only change was that I > ran the flexible pipe into a 5 gallon bucket next to the furnace to > create a cold air dam. In this way the cold air was not spilling into > the basement rather was blocked by the natural cold air dam in the > bucket. When the furnace turned on if of course had a fresh air supply > as the cold air dam disappeared and exterior air was sucked into the > basement via the pipe. Worked really well and kept the basement warm. Great idea on the cold air dam. I use the same thing for my icebox drain but using water instead of cold dense air. The other problem with a heated space is condensation from other sources--like human respiration--on cold, uninsulated exterior surfaces. My Cal 20 accumulates condensation in really humid summer weather just lying on her mooring--the cold water against the hull is below the dew point of the humid air. Chris Campbell

> The other problem with a heated space is condensation from other > sources--like human respiration--on cold, uninsulated exterior surfaces. My > Cal 20 accumulates condensation in really humid summer weather just lying on > her mooring--the cold water against the hull is below the dew point of the > humid air. > > I have the same problem with the rear quarterbirth on the port side. Here the boat is only partially insulated with material applied. Half way down the birth the covering stops, furthermore just parallel to the engine access panel the hull starts to radically curve upwards. Ive been able to eliminate most of the condensation in the boat in all areas but this and it get really wet back there to the point I've seen ice on the interior skin. Now I cover the interior boat skin with cardboard, as well as the bunk (with no cushion). Change it every week. as its saturated. Secondly, the area generates so much cold air that each night I build up a wall with gear to block the coldness. Its been nicknamed "The Berlin Wall" All in all, it been a good experience to get caught in these temps as it now gives me a pretty good understanding of what the boat needs and what can realistically can be done to make the vessel comfortable for late and early season sailing, once she gets home. Its surprising but spending the winter on the boat (which has not been winterized) has been a really good experience and not at all as uncomfortable as one might think. The biggest issue has been wind rather then cold, which drives the dog nuts. At 30 mph she throws in the towel and wants off. Typically it happens in the early morning like around 3-4 AM...now that's brutal, both in terms of getting the pooch off safely, negotiating the dock in high wind and then crashing in the vehicle. That part is no fun at all. The things we do for our animals. Wouldn't travel without her however..:) Best regards Chris H.

When we lived aboard we bought 1/4" thick pink foam board insulation from Home Depot. We took 3 sheets and some duct tape and covered all of the hull from the bunks to the ports. Just cut to fit pieces with a utility knife. This worked wonderfully to keep condensation down to a minimum and to help to stop heat loss at the outside of the bunks. This left only the port lights to wipe down each morning with a towel. On further discussion of our cold air source for combustion -- the Dickinson was constantly running whenever it was cold enough to care about air flow from the dryer pipe. Putting your hand 6 inches from the pipe, you could not feel any cold - all of the air flow went to the combustion chamber and up the flue. The only time the Dickinson was turned off meant that the outside air was warm enough to not matter. Come spring when the heater was only occasionally used, I took down the "cold air pipe" as the loss of heated air was no longer critical in keeping the boat warm. From 40 degrees to below freezing we had the cold air pipe in place. From 40 to 50 degrees we used cabin air. Above that, we returned to the heat pump / AC unit (MarineAir) in the stern which very efficiently uses sea water for heat exchange. It freezes up the flow pipe when the water temp drops below 45 degrees. Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 1:42:10 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Boat Heater (Danny) chris123 wrote: > > >This is really clevour and noted. i had a similar system setup in my >home for the mid efficiency gas furnace. The only change was that I ran >the flexible pipe into a 5 gallon bucket next to the furnace to create >a cold air dam. In this way the cold air was not spilling into the >basement rather was blocked by the natural cold air dam in the bucket. >When the furnace turned on if of course had a fresh air supply as the >cold air dam disappeared and exterior air was sucked into the basement >via the pipe. Worked really well and kept the basement warm. > Great idea on the cold air dam. I use the same thing for my icebox drain but using water instead of cold dense air. The other problem with a heated space is condensation from other sources--like human respiration- -on cold, uninsulated exterior surfaces. My Cal 20 accumulates condensation in really humid summer weather just lying on her mooring--the cold water against the hull is below the dew point of the humid air. Chris Campbell

Thanks for the detailed discussion. I've learned a lot from this experience, mostly from tiral and error. The initial mistake looking back was that i kept the boat in a state or rediness while waiting for the weather to change in Dec and working on it at the same time, and living on it as well. Touch to do, daily shuffle of everything but enthusiasm was high and common sense may have been lacking a bit. But it was fun toughing it out. What I should have done is immediately build a shelter for the cockpit out of ABS/PVC pipes and clear 6mill plastic. It would have acted as a greenhouse keeping everyone and everything warm. This is water folks do back home who winter over. With respect to insulating the boat, if I ever get caught again, that's exactly what I'm going to do. The only variation is used closed cell foam mattes that you buy from a local hardware store, the kind that you use for camping as under pads. There cheap and there flexible. Then I could use Velcro to fasten them anywhere as the boat has been lined with an expensive white polypropylene boat material. Its hydroscopic so water runs between it and the hull and collects on the settee's under the cushions or on the shelving. The closed cell foam would eliminate this problem. Under the bunks, once I get the boat home, the entire exposed hull will be lined with this stuff both as an insulator and it helps keep stuff in place. Any moisture there goes to the bilges. Ventilation. Learned lots here as well. Use low voltage computer server fans, three in total off the DC power supply to keep air moving in the boat during the night as well as a singular large capacity solar vent the runs during the day with the main hatch open to dry out the boat. Heating systems. What I had prepared for was an occasional night of coolness so figured a BlackCat propane heater from Coleman would do the trick. Wrong. Creates more moisture then you can shake a stick at. Hence I'm now doing the homework necessary to find a permanent solution: diesel vs propane. The good part is I have had no issues with refrigeration. Finally, funniest moment while staying on board? Well one night it got really cold. 9F so decided to make some comfort food, boiled potatoes with sauerkraut and Kielbasa all in the pressure cooker as heck, it would only take 10 minutes or less. Well. Once I released the pressure it took all hatches open and me waving a piece of cardboard to get the fog out of the main cabin. 15-20 minutes later you could see and then the wipe down procedure started. Lesson learned. Now I cook all meals during daylight hrs (IE; before 5:30) with the main hatch open and one of two port lights to create the needed draft to kick out the moisture both from the cooking process and the propane stove. Too funny. So much to learn, so really appreciate the advice and input. Best regards and thanks Chris H.

Chris - if you don't mind a spendy item, there's a very nice unit from Finland, I think, called a Wallas Safeflame. It's a compact diesel stove that also acts as heater. Has the flame enclosed and combustion products exhaust outside so it's dry heat. http://www.wallas.fi/default.asp?id=boat-stove-en http://www.scanmarineusa.com/wallas_stoves.html Nick From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris123 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:17 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Boat Heater (Chris C) Thanks for the detailed discussion.

chris123 wrote: > The good part is I have had no issues with refrigeration. > > Finally, funniest moment while staying on board? Well one night it got > really cold. 9F so decided to make some comfort food, boiled potatoes > with sauerkraut and Kielbasa all in the pressure cooker as heck, it > would only take 10 minutes or less. Well. Once I released the pressure > it took all hatches open and me waving a piece of cardboard to get the > fog out of the main cabin. 15-20 minutes later you could see and then > the wipe down procedure started. Lesson learned. Now I cook all meals > during daylight hrs (IE; before 5:30) with the main hatch open and one > of two port lights to create the needed draft to kick out the moisture > both from the cooking process and the propane stove. Too funny. > Great tale! My mouth is watering from the thought of the food. The coffee shop downstairs from my office sublets its space on Sat. evenings for parties for teen children where they play that single-note-bass thump-thump music. You know they are teens because they all huddle in the parking lot in their short sleeves and no coats because coats are extremely un-cool. Comfort is, too, I guess. At any rate, in one of their first undertakings, they had some sort of fog machine, and for unknown reasons decided to put it in the elevator. Apparently the elevator has some sort of sensor for particulates (including water vapor) and it shut the elevator down completely and permanently and called the fire dept. The landlord was not happy. Chris Campbell >

REALLY like our solar vents on both sailboats. makes a huge difference. On "Knot Ready", we have one installed in the plexi of the deck hatch, set up to intake fresh air. Its positive pressure, though slight, passes through the head and salon and out the engine compartment vents. boat always smells fresh. no smell frorm the VIRE 7 gas two stroke inboard. On "Submit", we have 3: one where each of two dorades were, and one in the aft of the codkpit. The ones forward are intake of fresh air and the stern one is exhaust from the Lazaretts and engine compartment. The vents operate and charge up durig the day and continue to operate all night. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ch… [at] gmail.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:17:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Boat Heater (Chris C) Thanks for the detailed discussion. I've learned a lot from this experience, mostly from tiral and error. The initial mistake looking back was that i kept the boat in a state or rediness while waiting for the weather to change in Dec and working on it at the same time, and living on it as well. Touch to do, daily shuffle of everything but enthusiasm was high and common sense may have been lacking a bit. But it was fun toughing it out. What I should have done is immediately build a shelter for the cockpit out of ABS/PVC pipes and clear 6mill plastic. It would have acted as a greenhouse keeping everyone and everything warm. This is water folks do back home who winter over. With respect to insulating the boat, if I ever get caught again, that's exactly what I'm going to do. The only variation is used closed cell foam mattes that you buy from a local hardware store, the kind that you use for camping as under pads. There cheap and there flexible. Then I could use Velcro to fasten them anywhere as the boat has been lined with an expensive white polypropylene boat material. Its hydroscopic so water runs between it and the hull and collects on the settee's under the cushions or on the shelving. The closed cell foam would eliminate this problem. Under the bunks, once I get the boat home, the entire exposed hull will be lined with this stuff both as an insulator and it helps keep stuff in place. Any moisture there goes to the bilges. Ventilation. Learned lots here as well. Use low voltage computer server fans, three in total off the DC power supply to keep air moving in the boat during the night as well as a singular large capacity solar vent the runs during the day with the main hatch open to dry out the boat. Heating systems. What I had prepared for was an occasional night of coolness so figured a BlackCat propane heater from Coleman would do the trick. Wrong. Creates more moisture then you can shake a stick at. Hence I'm now doing the homework necessary to find a permanent solution: diesel vs propane. The good part is I have had no issues with refrigeration. Finally, funniest moment while staying on board? Well one night it got really cold. 9F so decided to make some comfort food, boiled potatoes with sauerkraut and Kielbasa all in the pressure cooker as heck, it would only take 10 minutes or less. Well. Once I released the pressure it took all hatches open and me waving a piece of cardboard to get the fog out of the main cabin. 15-20 minutes later you could see and then the wipe down procedure started. Lesson learned. Now I cook all meals during daylight hrs (IE; before 5:30) with the main hatch open and one of two port lights to create the needed draft to kick out the moisture both from the cooking process and the propane stove. Too funny. So much to learn, so really appreciate the advice and input. Best regards and thanks Chris H.