Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup

I know that the helmsman had sunglasses that had a heads up display of info but if you think about it, there is no way that a human could adjust that massive wing fast enough to keep that hull at a consistent level so there had to be motor/computer assisted trimming going on. Anyone who has ever sailed a Hobie would agree. Paul In a message dated 2/17/2010 2:33:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, so… [at] yahoo.com writes: Allen, I think you are correct. Our WSA group had a meeting in which some the secrets of the boat were revealed. It may well be that they had some kind of gyroscope or angle sensing device, or inertial navigation system, that detected heel, or at least detected wind speed, or sail pressure, and dialed in the optimal flap settings. The sail and boat had sensors all over the place, lots and lots and lots of them...so possibly all they had to do is steer and pretend they were trimming the sails. Was Alinghi allowed to board the vessel and examine all its bells and whistles before the race? I sure don't know. Jerry. --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <al… [at] allen.edwards@all> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] allen.edwards@all> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrouTo: Ca Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 10:43 PM I don't think they had autopilots but what I am saying is that the pilot had a very stable craft to steer. Remember that fly by wire and autopilot are not the same thing. Even in an aircraft. I would also doubt that they had fly by wire. Fly by wire means the wheel goes to a computer and the computer controls the rudder. I would think the wheel controlled the rudder. What I am speculating is that the computer controlled the sail taking into account the attitude of the hull so that it would adjust to keep the hull flying at just the right angle. I don't know if they could keep the hull from pitching but if the helmsman doesn't have to change heading to keep the boat on the right heel, that would impact the stability of the rest of the boat. I am not saying this very well but it is late and this will have to do. I hope they reveal how the boat worked so we don't have to speculate. Allen On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <_sobel_solar@ yahoo.com_ (mip://03e84be8/mc/compose?to=so… [at] yahoo.com) > wrote: --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> wrote: That boat was too stable to not have fly by wire. The helmsman hardly did anything. By comparison, Aligni was all over the place. My guess is that the sails were controlled by computer and that adjustments were made to keep it sailing flat. I mean, did you ever see it anything but on the exact perfect angle to the water? I bet Alingi regrets putting motors on those boats. USA was equipped with grinders until Alingi put the motor on. Allen Allen, They would occasionally switch over to an animatin showing the sailing track, which showed both boats weren't sailing a straight course, but, there was a night and day difference between the two. I attributed that to the different natures of the torpedo like amas on the Beameroracleboat vs. Alinghi's fuller almost planing hull shape, and such. The Beameroracleboat sure pitched a lot less, again, I think, because it was piercing the waves more than riding over them. Heck, I notice that my Cal24 rides like a Cadillac compared to, say, a Santana 30-30, or a Cal 20. I think autopilots were illegal, but power assist were, if they did have an autopilot, they should be disqualified. Ha ha, Alinghi should sue them! But yes, I do know BMWO had a program to dial in the best main sail trim multiple flap setting for each wind speed, so, maybe you are right. Did Alinghi?..all they had was traveler, sheet, and vang settings. Certainly, Alinghi had itself to blame, since THEY were the ones who pushed for power assisted controls over the initial objection of Beameroracle. And they had the advantage of the Beamer Companies engineering staff in designing the power plant and hydraulic installation, and, I think, since the Beamerauricleboat had such tiny amas, it probably benefited from the weight savings disproportionately. Now, I did see guys on both boats pulling on and tailing standard looking winches, so, maybe much of it was manual control with power assists. Jerry On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <_husar_charlie@ bah.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=hu… [at] bah.com) > wrote: Of course, without the fly-by-wire, the 22 would go unstable in about 50 milliseconds. I don't suppose that Toyota (or any other car manufacturer) could afford to implement that level of software assurance or redundancy in their cars. Considering that the Ellison Flyer already has electric winches, the next step might be a sail-by-wire system. I'm sure she already partially runs that way. Cheers Charlie From: _Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) [mailto:_Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:41 PM To: _Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a cool video) I agree. It's almost magic how that bird maneuvers. Of course, a high thrust-weight ratio, large control surfaces, thrust vectoring (think Harrier or, even, bow thrusters). Flying unloaded and light helps a lot too. On 2/16/2010 6:35 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: With the controlled stalls, low speed maneuver, and all that, It does not look like the plane needs the wings. Cheers Charlie -----Original Message----- From: _Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) [mailto:_Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:24 PM To: _Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com_ (http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a cool video) I have an aviation background and this aircraft is simply amazing! Well, for the price tag, it better be. Those camels don't stand a chance. As for sailing content, sailing and aviation have a lot in common. The forces that make our sails work are what makes wings work as well. Thanks for the video link. That was a treat. Mike ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Which came first, Alinghi's brilliant idea for a motor assist, or the wing? If the motor thing preceded the wing, maybe Alinghi can thank itself for losing the cup. Yeah, their boat was all over the place. On the other hand those dart like, wave piercing amas on Oraclebeamer were probably a lot more stable platform, with a heck of a lot less fore aft rocking which normally would play havoc at low wind speed on a single surface sail. The other problem they had was constantly seeking enough pressure to keep one hull out of the water, so they ended up zig zagging down the course, with a lot more friction from constantly turning the boat, and slamming the windward hull and rudder into the waves Jerry --- On Wed, 2/17/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 7:55 AM I know that the helmsman had sunglasses that had a heads up display of info but if you think about it, there is no way that a human could adjust that massive wing fast enough to keep that hull at a consistent level so there had to be motor/computer assisted trimming going on. Anyone who has ever sailed a Hobie would agree. Paul In a message dated 2/17/2010 2:33:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sobel_solar@ yahoo.com writes: Allen, I think you are correct. Our WSA group had a meeting in which some the secrets of the boat were revealed. It may well be that they had some kind of gyroscope or angle sensing device, or inertial navigation system, that detected heel, or at least detected wind speed, or sail pressure, and dialed in the optimal flap settings. The sail and boat had sensors all over the place, lots and lots and lots of them...so possibly all they had to do is steer and pretend they were trimming the sails. Was Alinghi allowed to board the vessel and examine all its bells and whistles before the race? I sure don't know. Jerry. --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 10:43 PM I don't think they had autopilots but what I am saying is that the pilot had a very stable craft to steer. Remember that fly by wire and autopilot are not the same thing. Even in an aircraft. I would also doubt that they had fly by wire. Fly by wire means the wheel goes to a computer and the computer controls the rudder. I would think the wheel controlled the rudder. What I am speculating is that the computer controlled the sail taking into account the attitude of the hull so that it would adjust to keep the hull flying at just the right angle. I don't know if they could keep the hull from pitching but if the helmsman doesn't have to change heading to keep the boat on the right heel, that would impact the stability of the rest of the boat. I am not saying this very well but it is late and this will have to do. I hope they reveal how the boat worked so we don't have to speculate. Allen On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> wrote: --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> wrote: That boat was too stable to not have fly by wire. The helmsman hardly did anything. By comparison, Aligni was all over the place. My guess is that the sails were controlled by computer and that adjustments were made to keep it sailing flat. I mean, did you ever see it anything but on the exact perfect angle to the water? I bet Alingi regrets putting motors on those boats. USA was equipped with grinders until Alingi put the motor on. Allen Allen, They would occasionally switch over to an animatin showing the sailing track, which showed both boats weren't sailing a straight course, but, there was a night and day difference between the two. I attributed that to the different natures of the torpedo like amas on the Beameroracleboat vs. Alinghi's fuller almost planing hull shape, and such. The Beameroracleboat sure pitched a lot less, again, I think, because it was piercing the waves more than riding over them. Heck, I notice that my Cal24 rides like a Cadillac compared to, say, a Santana 30-30, or a Cal 20. I think autopilots were illegal, but power assist were, if they did have an autopilot, they should be disqualified. Ha ha, Alinghi should sue them! But yes, I do know BMWO had a program to dial in the best main sail trim multiple flap setting for each wind speed, so, maybe you are right. Did Alinghi?..all they had was traveler, sheet, and vang settings. Certainly, Alinghi had itself to blame, since THEY were the ones who pushed for power assisted controls over the initial objection of Beameroracle. And they had the advantage of the Beamer Companies engineering staff in designing the power plant and hydraulic installation, and, I think, since the Beamerauricleboat had such tiny amas, it probably benefited from the weight savings disproportionately. Now, I did see guys on both boats pulling on and tailing standard looking winches, so, maybe much of it was manual control with power assists. Jerry On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <husar_charlie@ bah.com> wrote: Of course, without the fly-by-wire, the 22 would go unstable in about 50 milliseconds. I don't suppose that Toyota (or any other car manufacturer) could afford to implement that level of software assurance or redundancy in their cars. Considering that the Ellison Flyer already has electric winches, the next step might be a sail-by-wire system. I'm sure she already partially runs that way. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:41 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a cool video) I agree. It's almost magic how that bird maneuvers. Of course, a high thrust-weight ratio, large control surfaces, thrust vectoring (think Harrier or, even, bow thrusters). Flying unloaded and light helps a lot too. On 2/16/2010 6:35 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: With the controlled stalls, low speed maneuver, and all that, It does not look like the plane needs the wings. Cheers Charlie -----Original Message----- From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:24 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a cool video) I have an aviation background and this aircraft is simply amazing! Well, for the price tag, it better be. Those camels don't stand a chance. As for sailing content, sailing and aviation have a lot in common. The forces that make our sails work are what makes wings work as well. Thanks for the video link. That was a treat. Mike ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Jerry , There's more to it than that! Alinghi wanted the snowmobile motor she got that runs all the time. Bor did not want motors, she removed coffee grinders. Alinghi had flat daggerboards, curved bords useb on usa17 frovide much more actual lift, in fact liftind the hull out of the water on a reach, less wetted surface, drag and more benefits. This is not new technology. Why Alinghi did not use curved boards is a mystery. Spithall and Kostecki sailed as a team Bertarelli did not. Watch the difference in steering styles. USA 17 had John calling puffs on the water and the traveller would go down as tha puff hit--not after. It's like playing the main on a racer you have crewed for a long time! You know the helmsman's style and sheet traveller and helm work together. It's not computer magic , Spithall & Kostecki are just that good! Bertarelli is not. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 9:32:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup Which came first, Alinghi's brilliant idea for a motor assist, or the wing? If the motor thing preceded the wing, maybe Alinghi can thank itself for losing the cup. Yeah, their boat was all over the place. On the other hand those dart like, wave piercing amas on Oraclebeamer were probably a lot more stable platform, with a heck of a lot less fore aft rocking which normally would play havoc at low wind speed on a single surface sail. The other problem they had was constantly seeking enough pressure to keep one hull out of the water, so they ended up zig zagging down the course, with a lot more friction from constantly turning the boat, and slamming the windward hull and rudder into the waves Jerry --- On Wed, 2/17/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: >From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 7:55 AM > > > >I know that the helmsman had sunglasses that had a heads up display of info but if you think about it, there is no way that a human could adjust that massive wing fast enough to keep that hull at a consistent level so there had to be motor/computer assisted trimming going on. Anyone who has ever sailed a Hobie would agree. > >Paul > >In a message dated 2/17/2010 2:33:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sobel_solar@ yahoo.com writes: > >>Allen, >>I think you are correct. Our WSA group had a meeting in which some the secrets of the boat were revealed. It may well be that they had some kind of gyroscope or angle sensing device, or inertial navigation system, that detected heel, or at least detected wind speed, or sail pressure, and dialed in the optimal flap settings. The sail and boat had sensors all over the place, lots and lots and lots of them...so possibly all they had to do is steer and pretend they were trimming the sails. >>Was Alinghi allowed to board the vessel and examine all its bells and whistles before the race? I sure don't know. >>Jerry. >> >>--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the Americascup >>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 10:43 PM >>> >>> >>> >>>I don't think they had autopilots but what I am saying is that the pilot had a very stable craft to steer. Remember that fly by wire and autopilot are not the same thing. Even in an aircraft. >>> >>> >>>I would also doubt that they had fly by wire. Fly by wire means the wheel goes to a computer and the computer controls the rudder. I would think the wheel controlled the rudder. What I am speculating is that the computer controlled the sail taking into account the attitude of the hull so that it would adjust to keep the hull flying at just the right angle. I don't know if they could keep the hull from pitching but if the helmsman doesn't have to change heading to keep the boat on the right heel, that would impact the stability of the rest of the boat. I am not saying this very well but it is late and this will have to do. >>> >>> >>>I hope they reveal how the boat worked so we don't have to speculate. >>> >>> >>>Allen >>> >>> >>> >>>On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>>--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>That boat was too stable to not have fly by wire. The helmsman hardly did anything. By comparison, Aligni was all over the place. My guess is that the sails were controlled by computer and that adjustments were made to keep it sailing flat. I mean, did you ever see it anything but on the exact perfect angle to the water? >>>> >>>> >>>>I bet Alingi regrets putting motors on those boats. USA was equipped with grinders until Alingi put the motor on. >>>> >>>> >>>>Allen >>>> >>>>Allen, >>>>They would occasionally switch over to an animatin showing the sailing track, which showed both boats weren't sailing a straight course, but, there was a night and day difference between the two. I attributed that to the different natures of the torpedo like amas on the Beameroracleboat vs. Alinghi's fuller almost planing hull shape, and such. The Beameroracleboat sure pitched a lot less, again, I think, because it was piercing the waves more than riding over them. Heck, I notice that my Cal24 rides like a Cadillac compared to, say, a Santana 30-30, or a Cal 20. >>>>I think autopilots were illegal, but power assist were, if they did have an autopilot, they should be disqualified. Ha ha, Alinghi should sue them! But yes, I do know BMWO had a program to dial in the best main sail trim multiple flap setting for each wind speed, so, maybe you are right. Did Alinghi?..all they had was traveler, sheet, and vang settings. Certainly, Alinghi had itself to blame, since THEY were the ones who pushed for power assisted controls over the initial objection of Beameroracle. And they had the advantage of the Beamer Companies engineering staff in designing the power plant and hydraulic installation, and, I think, since the Beamerauricleboat had such tiny amas, it probably benefited from the weight savings disproportionately. >>>> >>>>Now, I did see guys on both boats pulling on and tailing standard looking winches, so, maybe much of it was manual control with power assists. >>>>Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <husar_charlie@ bah.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Of course, without the fly-by-wire, the 22 would go unstable in about 50 milliseconds. I don't suppose that Toyota (or any other car manufacturer) could afford to implement that level of software assurance or redundancy in their cars. >>>>>> >>>>>>Considering that the Ellison Flyer already has electric winches, the next step might be a sail-by-wire system. I'm sure she already partially runs that way. >>>>>> >>>>>>Cheers >>>>>>Charlie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of mike >>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:41 PM >>>>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a cool video) >>>>>> >>>>>>I agree. It's almost magic how that bird maneuvers. >>>>>>Of course, a high thrust-weight ratio, large control surfaces, thrust vectoring (think Harrier or, even, bow thrusters). Flying unloaded and light helps a lot too. >>>>>> >>>>>>On 2/16/2010 6:35 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>With the controlled stalls, low speed maneuver, and all that, It does not look like the plane needs the wings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Cheers >>>>>>>Charlie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of mike >>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:24 PM >>>>>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a cool video) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have an aviation background and this aircraft is simply amazing! Well, for the price tag, it better be. Those camels don't stand a chance. >>>>>>>As for sailing content, sailing and aviation have a lot in common. The forces that make our sails work are what makes wings work as well. >>>>>>>Thanks for the video link. That was a treat. >>>>>>>Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------ --------- --------- ------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>

Alinghi had two styles of dagger boards, straight and curved. They picked straight for the wind conditions for that day. BOR only had one style. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:26 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wroerry , > > There's more to it than that! Alinghi wanted the snowmobile > motor she got that runs all the time. Bor did not want motors, she removed > coffee grinders. > > Alinghi had flat daggerboards, curved bords useb on usa17 frovide much > more actual lift, in fact liftind the hull out of the water on a reach, less > wetted surface, drag and more benefits. This is not new technology. Why > Alinghi did not use curved boards is a mystery. Spithall and Kostecki sailed > as a team Bertarelli did not. Watch the difference in steering styles. USA > 17 had John calling puffs on the water and the traveller would go down as > tha puff hit--not after. It's like playing the main on a racer you have > crewed for a long time! You know the helmsman's style and sheet traveller > and helm work together. It's not computer magic , Spithall & Kostecki are > just that good! Bertarelli is not. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, February 17, 2010 9:32:00 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the > Americascup > > > > Which came first, Alinghi's brilliant idea for a motor assist, or the > wing? If the motor thing preceded the wing, maybe Alinghi can thank itself > for losing the cup. Yeah, their boat was all over the place. On the other > hand those dart like, wave piercing amas on Oraclebeamer were probably a lot > more stable platform, with a heck of a lot less fore aft rocking which > normally would play havoc at low wind speed on a single surface sail. The > other problem they had was constantly seeking enough pressure to keep one > hull out of the water, so they ended up zig zagging down the course, with a > lot more friction from constantly turning the boat, and slamming the > windward hull and rudder into the waves > Jerry > > --- On *Wed, 2/17/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com>* wrote: > > > From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the > Americascup > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 7:55 AM > > > > I know that the helmsman had sunglasses that had a heads up display of info > but if you think about it, there is no way that a human could adjust that > massive wing fast enough to keep that hull at a consistent level so there > had to be motor/computer assisted trimming going on. Anyone who has ever > sailed a Hobie would agree. > > Paul > > In a message dated 2/17/2010 2:33:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sobel_solar@ yahoo.com writes: > > > > Allen, > I think you are correct. Our WSA group had a meeting in which some the > secrets of the boat were revealed. It may well be that they had some kind of > gyroscope or angle sensing device, or inertial navigation system, that > detected heel, or at least detected wind speed, or sail pressure, and dialed > in the optimal flap settings. The sail and boat had sensors all over the > place, lots and lots and lots of them...so possibly all they had to do is > steer and pretend they were trimming the sails. > Was Alinghi allowed to board the vessel and examine all its bells and > whistles before the race? I sure don't know. > Jerry. > > --- On *Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com>*wrote: > > > From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Wire flys in the ointment, was Speaking of the > Americascup > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 10:43 PM > > > > I don't think they had autopilots but what I am saying is that the pilot > had a very stable craft to steer. Remember that fly by wire and autopilot > are not the same thing. Even in an aircraft. > > I would also doubt that they had fly by wire. Fly by wire means the wheel > goes to a computer and the computer controls the rudder. I would think the > wheel controlled the rudder. What I am speculating is that the computer > controlled the sail taking into account the attitude of the hull so that it > would adjust to keep the hull flying at just the right angle. I don't know > if they could keep the hull from pitching but if the helmsman doesn't have > to change heading to keep the boat on the right heel, that would impact the > stability of the rest of the boat. I am not saying this very well but it is > late and this will have to do. > > I hope they reveal how the boat worked so we don't have to speculate. > > Allen > > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com>wrote: > >> >> >> >> --- On *Tue, 2/16/10, Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com>*wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> That boat was too stable to not have fly by wire. The helmsman hardly did >> anything. By comparison, Aligni was all over the place. My guess is that >> the sails were controlled by computer and that adjustments were made to keep >> it sailing flat. I mean, did you ever see it anything but on the exact >> perfect angle to the water? >> >> I bet Alingi regrets putting motors on those boats. USA was equipped with >> grinders until Alingi put the motor on. >> >> Allen >> >> >> Allen, >> They would occasionally switch over to an animatin showing the sailing >> track, which showed both boats weren't sailing a straight course, but, there >> was a night and day difference between the two. I attributed that to the >> different natures of the torpedo like amas on the Beameroracleboat vs. >> Alinghi's fuller almost planing hull shape, and such. The Beameroracleboat >> sure pitched a lot less, again, I think, because it was piercing the waves >> more than riding over them. Heck, I notice that my Cal24 rides like a >> Cadillac compared to, say, a Santana 30-30, or a Cal 20. >> I think autopilots were illegal, but power assist were, if they did have >> an autopilot, they should be disqualified. Ha ha, Alinghi should sue them! >> But yes, I do know BMWO had a program to dial in the best main sail trim >> multiple flap setting for each wind speed, so, maybe you are right. Did >> Alinghi?..all they had was traveler, sheet, and vang settings. Certainly, >> Alinghi had itself to blame, since THEY were the ones who pushed for power >> assisted controls over the initial objection of Beameroracle. And they had >> the advantage of the Beamer Companies engineering staff in designing the >> power plant and hydraulic installation, and, I think, since the >> Beamerauricleboat had such tiny amas, it probably benefited from the weight >> savings disproportionately. >> >> Now, I did see guys on both boats pulling on and tailing standard looking >> winches, so, maybe much of it was manual control with power assists. >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <husar_charlie@ >> bah.com <http://mc/compose?to=hu… [at] bah.com>> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Of course, without the fly-by-wire, the 22 would go unstable in about 50 >>> milliseconds. I don't suppose that Toyota (or any other car manufacturer) >>> could afford to implement that level of software assurance or redundancy in >>> their cars. >>> >>> Considering that the Ellison Flyer already has electric winches, the next >>> step might be a sail-by-wire system. I'm sure she already partially runs >>> that way. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Charlie >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>[mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou >>> ps.com <http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of * >>> mike >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:41 PM >>> *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but >>> a cool video) >>> >>> I agree. It's almost magic how that bird maneuvers. >>> Of course, a high thrust-weight ratio, large control surfaces, thrust >>> vectoring (think Harrier or, even, bow thrusters). Flying unloaded and light >>> helps a lot too. >>> >>> On 2/16/2010 6:35 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> With the controlled stalls, low speed maneuver, and all that, It does not >>> look like the plane needs the wings. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Charlie >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://mc/compose?to=Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou >>> ps.com <http://mc/compose?to=Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of >>> mike >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:24 PM >>> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://mc/compose?to=Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Speaking of the F-22 (no sailing content but a >>> cool video) >>> >>> I have an aviation background and this aircraft is simply amazing! Well, >>> for the price tag, it better be. Those camels don't stand a chance. >>> As for sailing content, sailing and aviation have a lot in common. The >>> forces that make our sails work are what makes wings work as well. >>> Thanks for the video link. That was a treat. >>> Mike >>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > >