Handrail Removal

Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

ATTACHMENT: Interior handholds are held on by wood screws. Exterior handholds are thru bolted. BUNG REMOVAL: The only way I know of removing the bungs is to drill them out. Be careful not to ruin the Phillips head of the underlying screw/bolt. BUNG REPLACEMENT: First, bungs are cheap. Second, be sure to get the right size. Third, use a rasp to reshape the new bung. Took me about 20 min for an interior handrail. From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 4:14:43 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

Hand rails are either screwed into a wooden core from the frontside or through the backside. There is sometimes a nut on the backside behind a bung. I take the bungs out with a very small screwdriver or an awl, driving it in until the bung splits and then dig out the two pieces. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

Hi, Timm. From some of my removal attempts, it appears to me that some people think glue is a good thing for bungs. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:27 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hand rails are either screwed into a wooden core from the frontside or through the backside. There is sometimes a nut on the backside behind a bung. I take the bungs out with a very small screwdriver or an awl, driving it in until the bung splits and then dig out the two pieces. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

Glue in your bung hole is always a bad idea. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:31 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hi, Timm. From some of my removal attempts, it appears to me that some people think glue is a good thing for bungs. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:27 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hand rails are either screwed into a wooden core from the frontside or through the backside. There is sometimes a nut on the backside behind a bung. I take the bungs out with a very small screwdriver or an awl, driving it in until the bung splits and then dig out the two pieces. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

Did I ever tell you about the time I was replacing the deck plywood in a CAL 25 (from underneath is the way it is done), and I sat down in a pool of liquid West System epoxy (a modest amount of 403 microfiber filler in the mix as I recall). Seems germane to the present discussion. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Glue in your bung hole is always a bad idea. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:31 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hi, Timm. From some of my removal attempts, it appears to me that some people think glue is a good thing for bungs. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:27 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hand rails are either screwed into a wooden core from the frontside or through the backside. There is sometimes a nut on the backside behind a bung. I take the bungs out with a very small screwdriver or an awl, driving it in until the bung splits and then dig out the two pieces. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

To remove the teak plugs that cover the screws (bungs?), I use a center punch to mark the center of the plug. Then I drill with a Forstner bit that matches the size (usually 3/8") of the plug just until the bit finds the screw head. (A Forstner bit has a small guide bit with two chisel edges that cut a flat bottom hole. Used a lot for cutting holes for hardwood dowels when joining pieces of wood.) This leaves a very clean, properly sized hole in the wood for re-plugging when the rail is replaced. The remaining small bits of wood above the screw are easily removed with a phillips head screw driver. When replacing with new plugs, dip the bottom half of the plug in fresh epoxy. Tap the plug into the hole with the grain running the same as the wood rail. The epoxy will end up covering the whole plug as it is inserted, and only dipping half keeps run-off from needing to be sanded off later. I once replugged a rail without epoxy and then varnished. Six months later the plugs had cracked the varnish because of movement. Epoxy keeps the plugs bonded to the rail wood and will protect your varnish from damage from differential movement of the wood. As your boat is of a different generation than mine, I won't try to guess how your hand rails are held to the hull. My interior rails are screwed to a plywood that is bonded to the fiberglass. The exterior rails are held to the deck by wood screws into the fiberglass. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 1:14:43 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

You must have been working on fixing the poop deck? From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:37 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Did I ever tell you about the time I was replacing the deck plywood in a CAL 25 (from underneath is the way it is done), and I sat down in a pool of liquid West System epoxy (a modest amount of 403 microfiber filler in the mix as I recall). Seems germane to the present discussion. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Glue in your bung hole is always a bad idea. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:31 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hi, Timm. From some of my removal attempts, it appears to me that some people think glue is a good thing for bungs. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:27 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hand rails are either screwed into a wooden core from the frontside or through the backside. There is sometimes a nut on the backside behind a bung. I take the bungs out with a very small screwdriver or an awl, driving it in until the bung splits and then dig out the two pieces. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

True -- epoxy is much better! Oh, wait. You meant......... Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: "ti… [at] ch2m.com" <ti… [at] ch2m.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 1:31:48 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Glue in your bung hole is always a bad idea. From:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:31 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hi, Timm. From some of my removal attempts, it appears to me that some people think glue is a good thing for bungs. Cheers Charlie From:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:27 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Hand rails are either screwed into a wooden core from the frontside or through the backside. There is sometimes a nut on the backside behind a bung. I take the bungs out with a very small screwdriver or an awl, driving it in until the bung splits and then dig out the two pieces. dEmO From:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Paul, I've always resorted to butchery. I start with good intentions, but... Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of pwestla@aol. com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:15 PM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

Paul, First things first. Handrails on the deck that do not have a corresponding handrail inside are attached with a long bolt with a tapered flat head with a phillips head. Inside you should see the attachment nuts. For those handrails with inside handrails, the bolts used are the same only little longer. The inside handrails have the corresponding nut buried beneath the bung. How carefully the nut was positioned inside the bung hole determines how effective it stays put when you drive the bolt into it (hint: sometimes it will start spinning and you'll have to take out the bung and jam a screwdriver or something in there to prevent the nut from turning...don't even get me started on cross-threading it!). As for taking out the bungs--it all depends on what was used to glue the bung in. If the glue is really strong, then you'll have to drill out the bung using ever larger bits. That way the bung has a chance before you get to the largest size (probably 1/2") of coming out. Another method is drill a small hole, screw in a long screw and when the screw hits the bolt head, keep screwing and the bung will break free and come out clean. If the glue is strong, then parts of the rail around the bung will come with it...I have personal experience with this, which is why I am currently replacing all of my exterior rails with new ones (Doh!). Hand rails should never be screwed in; it would fail a number of offshore regs for how much force a handrail must withstand. It would really surprise me if Cal resorted to that trick, since they were a decent builder. Jack Cal 31 #198 --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, pwestla@... wrote: > > Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that > matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in > the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and > the rails are attached with wood screws? > > Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of > things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? > > Thanks - > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > '80 Cal 39 Mk III >

Your statement below of damage to the rail when the bung pulls out is why I drill with a Forstner. A high speed drill bit can "wander" and leave an angled hole. It also does not clear the wood at the bottom of the hole near the screw head. The Forstner will take care of both issues. As long as you hold the bit square to the rail when it starts drilling, the hole will drill square and all of the bung will be removed as they were flat bottomed when installed and the guide bit of the Forstner will probably hit the center of the Phillips head. I have never had to replace a piece of teak when removed using this system. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: egiajack <jg… [at] melantho.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 1:42:45 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Handrail Removal Paul, First things first. Handrails on the deck that do not have a corresponding handrail inside are attached with a long bolt with a tapered flat head with a phillips head. Inside you should see the attachment nuts. For those handrails with inside handrails, the bolts used are the same only little longer. The inside handrails have the corresponding nut buried beneath the bung. How carefully the nut was positioned inside the bung hole determines how effective it stays put when you drive the bolt into it (hint: sometimes it will start spinning and you'll have to take out the bung and jam a screwdriver or something in there to prevent the nut from turning...don' t even get me started on cross-threading it!). As for taking out the bungs--it all depends on what was used to glue the bung in. If the glue is really strong, then you'll have to drill out the bung using ever larger bits. That way the bung has a chance before you get to the largest size (probably 1/2") of coming out. Another method is drill a small hole, screw in a long screw and when the screw hits the bolt head, keep screwing and the bung will break free and come out clean. If the glue is strong, then parts of the rail around the bung will come with it...I have personal experience with this, which is why I am currently replacing all of my exterior rails with new ones (Doh!). Hand rails should never be screwed in; it would fail a number of offshore regs for how much force a handrail must withstand. It would really surprise me if Cal resorted to that trick, since they were a decent builder. Jack Cal 31 #198

Last year I removed and reinstalled 3 interior handrails and this year I have removed and am reinstalling one exterior handrail. All were attached as stated in my prior email. I was very happy that the original installer (Bangor Punta) didn't glue the bungs. I merely drilled a hold in the middle of the bung and pulled it out. On a couple I had to resort to putting a screw a little way into the hole to pull out the bung. A couple of times I had to break the bung apart to get it out. I never had the problem of breaking/splintering the handrail. When I replaced the bungs I simply tapped in the new ones. They are tapered so will jam in the hole. If the hole is not deep enough to have the bung jam just file down the bottom of the bung so that the top will jam. I didn't glue in the bungs. Murphy says that if I don't glue I woun't have to replace them for a while. I know that if I glue them in I will have to take them out almost immediatley. Murphy, my constent companion. Don't forget: I'm the guy who hates to varnish so I will not be having that problem. Teak oil doesn't crack (I hope). Regardless of how it sounds, and I was nervous going into the job initially, it really ends up being pretty simple. From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 4:14:43 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Handrail Removal Does anyone know how the interior handrails (and exterior too for that matter) are attached to the deck? Is there a piece of aluminum embedded in the coachroof that is threaded for bolts to screw into or is it just wood and the rails are attached with wood screws? Any secret methods out there for removing the bungs w/o making a mess of things? Just drill them out, use a small holesaw or is there a better way? Thanks - Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 Mk III

I've heard that. Kevin ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > > Glue in your bung hole is always a bad idea. > > > > >