Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation

--- On Tue, 3/9/10, Whirled Peas <wh… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: . There is a fair amount of flex in the keel when underway.. this is normal This is important and something which bears discussion. If there is too much keel flex someday the keel can fracture and fall off. This has already happened at least once. Not so good! Some of the older Cals probably need to be hauled and the area reinforced from outside or inside. This has been done by a number of site members and they can chime in. There was a fellow who circumnavigated his Cal 25 and before doing so, sailed his boat from California to the East Coast, and found the flexing scary while transiting the Caribbean Sea. He ended up pulling off the deck and reinforcing the hull from the inside, before taking off around the world. I had an older model Cal 25 and found the keel would do a woopsie-doo while negotiating steep swells, and I didn't like the feeling one bit. Jerry

I think that if someone wants to stiffen their Cal keel the way a modern boat is stiffened, you cant prove its any faster, but the boat is WAY more sea worthy. If your a racer or want to stay one design, I stiffened my keel by simply re-tabbing in the bulkheads that had been broke off for YEARS (they are probably all floating around in your keels right now).... I had cracks running along the big radius that runs the length of the "joint " where the keel meets the hull. Before I did any of these repairs the boat took a first place in the annual Bayview Long Distance race, sailed out from under a Morgan27, and beat the next Cal25 by 14 minutes (about). The boat seems no faster now than it did before. However, I started repairs after the race. The boat was hauled and I noticed 'the crack' (about an arms width) in the VC bottom that was previously smooth. After grinding out the area till the crack disappeared, I was right down to the last few strands of roving before I could put a finger INSIDE the keel !!! Either way, I probably would have sank in the "perfect puff" I have checked for cracks for the last few years and have found none, The keel really doesn't move around a whole lot. I also noticed, and I can't explain this, the tighter my rig tension the less wobble in my keel...Am I losing it? George To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com CC: so… [at] msn.com; pr… [at] pacbell.net From: so… [at] yahoo.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:58:31 -0800 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Whirled Peas <wh… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: . There is a fair amount of flex in the keel when underway.. this is normal This is important and something which bears discussion. If there is too much keel flex someday the keel can fracture and fall off. This has already happened at least once. Not so good! Some of the older Cals probably need to be hauled and the area reinforced from outside or inside. This has been done by a number of site members and they can chime in. There was a fellow who circumnavigated his Cal 25 and before doing so, sailed his boat from California to the East Coast, and found the flexing scary while transiting the Caribbean Sea. He ended up pulling off the deck and reinforcing the hull from the inside, before taking off around the world. I had an older model Cal 25 and found the keel would do a woopsie-doo while negotiating steep swells, and I didn't like the feeling one bit. Jerry Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/

I do intend to reinforce my keel flex at some point... didn't want to sound like I would totally sign off on it's seaworthiness in all conditions. We should remember that the Cal 25 was really built for weekend sailing in normal California conditions. If I was planning to take it to Hawaii or further... I would make quite a few modifications including bolting the pop top on permanently and glassing in the keel with nice new epoxy. Probably if I ever want to take my 42 year old plastic sailboat much further than I can paddle back to shore in my kayak (30 miles?)... I'll consider doing this first. From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: so… [at] msn.com; pr… [at] pacbell.net Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 1:58:31 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Whirled Peas <whirledpeas333@ yahoo.com> wrote: . There is a fair amount of flex in the keel when underway.. this is normal > >This is important and something which bears discussion. If there is too much keel flex someday the keel can fracture and fall off. This has already happened at least once. Not so good! Some of the older Cals probably need to be hauled and the area reinforced from outside or inside. This has been done by a number of site members and they can chime in. >There was a fellow who circumnavigated his Cal 25 and before doing so, sailed his boat from California to the East Coast, and found the flexing scary while transiting the Caribbean Sea. He ended up pulling off the deck and reinforcing the hull from the inside, before taking off around the world. >I had an older model Cal 25 and found the keel would do a woopsie-doo while negotiating steep swells, and I didn't like the feeling one bit. >Jerry >

I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

Hello Group My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? Thanks Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <aw… [at] bellsouth.net> wrote: From: Al Waschka <aw… [at] bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM Hello Group My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? Thanks Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

Thank You Gerald I know David has done many upgrades and repairs. to his 2-29 Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 7:17 PM Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> wrote: From: scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM Hello Group My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? Thanks Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

I wouldn't worry about the keel flex. It's fiberglass, not steel, and is much more flexible. As far as the plywood attachment to the fiberglass, the original work done in the factory was not up to today's standards, being just glass tape resined to the plywood and hull. I ended up re-doing most of the connections in the forward cabin. My first attempt was just glass tape epoxied to the plywood and hull; this broke in short order. My second attempt added foam strips in the corner (just like the illustrations in the fiberglass boatbuilding books) to reduce stress concentrations. This has remained unbroken for about 15 years... so far. RKT On 3/9/10, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > Scott, > Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 > structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... > "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> > He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength > between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel > recently (this Fall). > I have a hunch he will chime in on this. > Jerry > > --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello > Group > My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? > Thanks > Scott > > --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: > > > From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM > > > > > > > > > > I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, > which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power > lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical > analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement > of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be > induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in > about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about > the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the > hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of > that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some > were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit > worrying about it. > > Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel > differently. YMMV. > > On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of > the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the > accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In > retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was > originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of > relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening > the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass > is much thinner. > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Robert, It was the late Roger Jones who brought the Cal owners' attention to possible catastrophic failure of the keel to hull joint from fatigue in old boats. He warned that not only could such a failure take place, but it had taken place. Roger Jones was a factory tech with the Cal factory and later on became a recognized expert in laminate engineering. This subject came up a number of times over the years, and some of the 'old timers' on the list can attest to that. Before he passed away, Roger was rebuilding a Cal 29 which he renamed Swiss Navy..or something like that...because of the prevalence of weak areas of laminate he ground away(like swiss cheese?), it being the original Cal 29 and as I understand it, Bill Lapworth's favorite boat. I sailed one once and it was an extremely sweet sailor. Jerry. --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Robert Thompson <ca… [at] gmail.com> wrote: From: Robert Thompson <ca… [at] gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 8:16 PM I wouldn't worry about the keel flex. It's fiberglass, not steel, and is much more flexible. As far as the plywood attachment to the fiberglass, the original work done in the factory was not up to today's standards, being just glass tape resined to the plywood and hull. I ended up re-doing most of the connections in the forward cabin. My first attempt was just glass tape epoxied to the plywood and hull; this broke in short order. My second attempt added foam strips in the corner (just like the illustrations in the fiberglass boatbuilding books) to reduce stress concentrations. This has remained unbroken for about 15 years... so far. RKT On 3/9/10, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> wrote: > Scott, > Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 > structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... > "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> > He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength > between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel > recently (this Fall). > I have a hunch he will chime in on this. > Jerry > > --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> wrote: > > From: scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello > Group > My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? > Thanks > Scott > > --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth . net> wrote: > > > From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth . net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM > > > > > > > > > > I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, > which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power > lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical > analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement > of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be > induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in > about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about > the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the > hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of > that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some > were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit > worrying about it. > > Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel > differently. YMMV. > > On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of > the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the > accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In > retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was > originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of > relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening > the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass > is much thinner. > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

How in the fu-- can you measure .070 inches of deflection? MF. From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 7:17:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >From: scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM > > > >Hello >Group >My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? >Thanks >Scott > >--- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: > > >>From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM >> >> >> >>I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. >> >>Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. >> >>On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. >> >>Al >> >

Thank you all for your great responses! I have all of my wood (1/4 marine plywood) rough cut to laminate the mast beam. I also have 0.30 x 4" carbon fiber to put in two layers. What concerns me is getting the curve of the beam right. I made cardboard templates for both port and starboard sides. My daughter got prints off the internet about how to build a jig to form the arch, but they left off one dimension. I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? I am going to haul-out April 2 so I want to get all I can done ahead of time. Thank you all. With much respect, Don Rowlands California >

RTFP :) I didn't measure it. The post pretty clearly states I calculated it. I considered the keel to be a rectangular rigid body that pivoted about the center of the top side. the top of one side goes up and the top of the other side goes down as the bottom moves from left to right. Assuming 3' depth from the cabin sole to the bottom and about 9" across the top of the keel opening on average. A simple ratio of half the width to the depth times the deflection at the bottom. I know it's not absoultely accurate but should be a pretty good first order approximation. But actually, you could measure it pretty easily with an engine runout or end play gauge attached to a piece of the furniture like the galley. Al --- On Wed, 3/10/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 7:24 PM How in the fu-- can you measure .070 inches of deflection? MF. From: Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 7:17:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> wrote: From: scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM Hello Group My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? Thanks Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

Thanks for then for two replys One point fiberglass that is resin or epoxy saturated will flex and then crack. Is there a way of fixing the keel flex when I looked at David"s site last time there where no pics of the actual repair Im humble did I miss something Regards scott I hope there is some --- On Wed, 3/10/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 4:24 PM How in the fu-- can you measure .070 inches of deflection? MF. From: Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 7:17:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> wrote: From: scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM Hello Group My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? Thanks Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

OK, If you say so! From: Al Waschka <aw… [at] bellsouth.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 6:02:34 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 (Mike) RTFP :) I didn't measure it. The post pretty clearly states I calculated it. I considered the keel to be a rectangular rigid body that pivoted about the center of the top side. the top of one side goes up and the top of the other side goes down as the bottom moves from left to right. Assuming 3' depth from the cabin sole to the bottom and about 9" across the top of the keel opening on average. A simple ratio of half the width to the depth times the deflection at the bottom. I know it's not absoultely accurate but should be a pretty good first order approximation. But actually, you could measure it pretty easily with an engine runout or end play gauge attached to a piece of the furniture like the galley. Al --- On Wed, 3/10/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 7:24 PM > > > >How in the fu-- can you measure .070 inches of deflection? > MF. > > > > From: Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> >To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 7:17:18 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > > > > >Scott, >Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... > >"David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> >He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). >I have a hunch he will chime in on this. >Jerry > >--- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> wrote: > > >>From: scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM >> >> >> >>Hello >>Group >>My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? >>Thanks >>Scott >> >>--- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM >>> >>> >>> >>>I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. >>> >>>Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. >>> >>>On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. >>> >>>Al >>> >> > >

You guys are getting way too technical. Get the experienced eye of a good marine yard to help...I have a 1970 cal 29. She was pulled in Alameda in 2006. The guy who pulled her at Svendsons Marina who had pulled 1000s of boats said to my friend who was there when she was pulled - just a bit too much wobble there. check her out. had 2-3 fiberglass guys also come to look. best fix was to reinforce inside and out.No do for me. next best fix, 18 inches of grinding north and south of garboard to bare fiberglass around entie keel. 4 new layers added and epoxy barrier. operator no longer concerned. done deal. im happy. these boats are great but they may need some reinforcement. shelley richards cal 29 #154 Seven Sisters \ Wilson NY formerly Alameda CA From: scott <ss… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Mar 10, 2010 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex cal 29 Thanks for then for two replys One point fiberglass that is resin or epoxy saturated will flex and then crack. Is there a way of fixing the keel flex when I looked at David"s site last time there where no pics of the actual repair Im humble did I miss something Regards scott I hope there is some --- On Wed, 3/10/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 4:24 PM How in the fu-- can you measure .070 inches of deflection? MF. From: Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 7:17:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry --- On Tue, 3/9/10, scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> wrote: From: scott <sscot12@yahoo. com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:59 PM Hello Group My 2-29 has the keel flex any ideas ? Thanks Scott --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> wrote: From: Al Waschka <awaschka@bellsouth. net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:26 PM I got pretty stirred up about keel flex after I noticed it on my Cal-25, which I purchased salvage after the original owner ran it into some power lines. A fairly simplistic, but probably pretty accurate mathematical analysis convinced me that only about .070 inches of vertical displacement of the hull, up on one side of the keel, down on the other, as might be induced by stepping onto the edge of the keel/hull joint, would result in about 1/2" of horizontal movement of the keel at the bottom. That was about the amount of flex I was seeing. I couldn't imagine how one could keep the hull from flexing seventy thousandths with 1700 lb. of lead at the end of that 3' lever arm. I also looked at several other boats in the area. Some were worse than mine, some were better, but they all flexed. So I quit worrying about it. Now if I were going to take it out in the open ocean I might feel differently. YMMV. On my boat, all the furniture was glassed to the hull for the full length of the ribs. The dinette was almost comletely broken away from the hull in the accident. I removed it, repaired it, and glassed it back in. In retrospect, I probably did not put as much glass tape back in as was originally there, but I don't know how much stiffer a few more layers of relatively light cloth would make the hull. Even so, I suspect stiffening the bottom would just transfer the flex up to the topsides where the glass is much thinner. Al

Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > Scott, > Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with > Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... > "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> > He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural > strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has > reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). > I have a hunch he will chime in on this. > Jerry >

and he has a big shoulder! Reggie (told you you would love it even more) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Scott,Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net>He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall).I have a hunch he will chime in on this.Jerry

Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Scott,Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net>He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall).I have a hunch he will chime in on this.Jerry

I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO

Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO

On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO

Loops on both 630 and 1241... To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: aw… [at] bellsouth.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:10:43 -0800 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/

Those with historically dry bilges would still have the rebar loops. We sinners would have residual rust stains and some forensic divots in the lead. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george macon Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:17 AM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation Loops on both 630 and 1241... To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: aw… [at] bellsouth.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:10:43 -0800 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.<http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/>

It's an illness that I'm starting to cure myself of. I have a 10 year plan to sail Mariposa into a watery grave, come what may. No More Projects. I look forward to sailing on "Submit" if and when I can make a chance. I would love to crew for you guys on an adventure. W On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:31 AM, r good wrote: > Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara > wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? > I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! > Reggie > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: dw… [at] cox.net > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > > > > Guys, > > It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject > right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up > that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones > did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these > flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout > where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my > keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the > curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was > noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could > grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the > garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at > least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. > > Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat > builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together > with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval > Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue > water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and > also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. > > To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed > tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the > hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re- > glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers > into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial > cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge > bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a > laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak > and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I > added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved > her performance enough to make it worth doing. > > When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and > it wouldn't budge -- nada! > > The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, > points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and > accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area > would flex up and down in a horific manner. > > Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the > Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had > some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending > failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many > photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them > before I could back them up. I can write up some more information > for those who are concerned if you give me some time. > > David "Wilkie" Owen > <Sole.jpg> > > > > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > Scott, > Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with > Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... > "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> > He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural > strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has > reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). > I have a hunch he will chime in on this. > Jerry > > > >

OK folks, I would like to tap into the collective wisdom of this group. I have 2 questions. 1. What is the best float switch to use on a Cal 33? I had an electronic one that did well but seemed to die with no warning. 2. Where and which parts does one need to make at connection into the raw water intake hose to be able to connect a fresh water hose to supply water while running the engine on the hard stands? Thanks, Darr LaFon Alcyone II, Cal 33-2 Annapolis, Maryland _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Waschka Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:11 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie _____ From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO

kneeling not required To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:34:48 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 It's an illness that I'm starting to cure myself of. I have a 10 year plan to sail Mariposa into a watery grave, come what may. No More Projects. I look forward to sailing on "Submit" if and when I can make a chance. I would love to crew for you guys on an adventure. W On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:31 AM, r good wrote: Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen <Sole.jpg> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry

Notice I said "were" loops.....they are now stubs..... Regards, Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 10:28 AM Those with historically dry bilges would still have the rebar loops. We sinners would have residual rust stains and some forensic divots in the lead. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of george macon Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:17 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation Loops on both 630 and 1241... To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: awaschka@bellsouth. net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:10:43 -0800 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <husar_charlie@ bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <husar_charlie@ bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Cal_Boats@yahoogro ups.com" <Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

#2 take hose that will fit in side of your RAW water T/H ,,, then take 5 gal bucket on top small step latter and put the hose going to T/H and in same bucket put a garden hose turn on 1/4 go in a start eng and open raw water T/H run out an open garden to keep bucket full this is a GOOD way to flush eng ..on stands ... you can take garden hook directly to eng or pump but this puts water inside your boat and could "SINK IT" and is hard w/p impeller ... Do NOT run eng dry !!! good luck edward CAL-29& 36 From: Darr LaFon <da… [at] verizon.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 9:58:30 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Float switches and OK folks, I would like to tap into the collective wisdom of this group. I have 2 questions. 1. What is the best float switch to use on a Cal 33? I had an electronic one that did well but seemed to die with no warning. 1. Where and which parts does one need to make at connection into the raw water intake hose to be able to connect a fresh water hose to supply water while running the engine on the hard stands? Thanks, Darr LaFon Alcyone II, Cal 33-2 Annapolis, Maryland From:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Al Waschka Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:11 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [ USA ] <husar_charlie@ bah.com> wrote: >> From: Husar, Charlie [ USA ] > <husar_charlie@ bah.com> >> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation >> To: " Cal_Boats@yahoogro ups.com " > < Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > >> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM > >Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug > in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? > >Cheers >Charlie > > >From:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On > Behalf Of r good >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 > 8:33 AM >To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com >Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: > Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal > 25, need infomation > >> I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell > me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? > >> .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO

David, Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. I'm a visual kind of guy, I sometimes have a hard time reconstructing a procedure by reading word descriptions; pictures, like the old Popular Mechanics' "wordless workshop" are easier for me to follow. A picture is worth a thousand words. BTW,Does Veering mean turning clockwise, and clocking mean turning clockwise? Some sailing terms still misty fie me. On perfection: Trying to do something better than all the other guys, trying to achieve 'perfection', has been a boon to my ego, but a cause of a great deal of trepidation in my life. As a (solar) contractor, if you try to do something 'perfect' the customer will often be horrified at the bill if it is time and materials, so I get so fearful of his/her reaction that I put off billing them altogether, and go broke. But solar is a lot like boats, if you don't dot the eyes and cross all the T'z, the system will fail to reach the longevity at which it becomes cost effective, which sinks the whole thing. A certain level of care pays great dividends in the long run, on the other hand, you can make a lot more money putting something defective that requires continual expensive call backs, till the owner throws in the towel. And another thing, it took me a long time till I could admit to the wisdom of replacing something vs. trying the fix the old one. I guess that's why some people opt for buying new boats vs. trying to fix old ones, which are incredibly dirt cheap by comparison. Anyway, my hat is off to people like "Wilkie" and Charlie, oh yeah, and the rest of us, for the hard work they and we have put into restoring these classic, irreplaceable beauties, nor should we be hesitant to take great pride in them. Who said "time spent messing around with boats is time well spent"? Jerry --- On Thu, 3/11/10, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 10:45 AM kneeling not required To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:34:48 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 It's an illness that I'm starting to cure myself of. I have a 10 year plan to sail Mariposa into a watery grave, come what may. No More Projects. I look forward to sailing on "Submit" if and when I can make a chance. I would love to crew for you guys on an adventure. W On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:31 AM, r good wrote: Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! Reggie To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen <Sole.jpg> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > David, > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave and you should be able to access the files on that drive. Good luck, John

Veering is the opposite of Backing. When the wind veers it shifts in a clockwise direction. Wind backs when it shifts in a CC direction. Trivial knowledge obtained at the loss of making better use of precious time. As always, My Best, Mike From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 2:14:41 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') David, Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. I'm a visual kind of guy, I sometimes have a hard time reconstructing a procedure by reading word descriptions; pictures, like the old Popular Mechanics' "wordless workshop" are easier for me to follow. A picture is worth a thousand words. BTW,Does Veering mean turning clockwise, and clocking mean turning clockwise? Some sailing terms still misty fie me. On perfection: Trying to do something better than all the other guys, trying to achieve 'perfection', has been a boon to my ego, but a cause of a great deal of trepidation in my life. As a (solar) contractor, if you try to do something 'perfect' the customer will often be horrified at the bill if it is time and materials, so I get so fearful of his/her reaction that I put off billing them altogether, and go broke. But solar is a lot like boats, if you don't dot the eyes and cross all the T'z, the system will fail to reach the longevity at which it becomes cost effective, which sinks the whole thing. A certain level of care pays great dividends in the long run, on the other hand, you can make a lot more money putting something defective that requires continual expensive call backs, till the owner throws in the towel. And another thing, it took me a long time till I could admit to the wisdom of replacing something vs. trying the fix the old one. I guess that's why some people opt for buying new boats vs. trying to fix old ones, which are incredibly dirt cheap by comparison. Anyway, my hat is off to people like "Wilkie" and Charlie, oh yeah, and the rest of us, for the hard work they and we have put into restoring these classic, irreplaceable beauties, nor should we be hesitant to take great pride in them. Who said "time spent messing around with boats is time well spent"? Jerry --- On Thu, 3/11/10, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: >From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> >Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 10:45 AM > > > >kneeling not required > > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >From: dw… [at] cox.net >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:34:48 -0800 >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 > > > > > >It's an illness that I'm starting to cure myself of. I have a 10 year plan to sail Mariposa into a watery grave, come what may. No More Projects. >I look forward to sailing on "Submit" if and when I can make a chance. I would love to crew for you guys on an adventure. > > >W > > > > >On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:31 AM, r good wrote: > >Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! >>Reggie >> >> >> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>From: dw… [at] cox.net >>Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Guys, >> >> >>It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. >> >> >>Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. >> >> >>To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. >> >> >>When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! >> >> >>The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. >> >> >>Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. >> >> >>David "Wilkie" Owen >><Sole.jpg> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: >> >> >>> >>>Scott, >>>Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... >>> >>>"David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> >>>He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). >>>I have a hunch he will chime in on this. >>>Jerry >>> >>> >> >> >> > >

2. our boat is plumbed this way. a tee in the line between the raw water filter and the pump, a ball valve with a length of clear plastic tubing (5/8"?) long enough to reach the engine bilge or a gallon water jug. It takes about a gallon of water or antifreeze to fill the fresh water system. A hose coupling would be easy to add to the plastic hose. Close the thru hull, open the "tee" valve, instant sump pump or alternate water source. YMMV John From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darr LaFon Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:59 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Float switches and OK folks, I would like to tap into the collective wisdom of this group. I have 2 questions. 1. What is the best float switch to use on a Cal 33? I had an electronic one that did well but seemed to die with no warning. 2. Where and which parts does one need to make at connection into the raw water intake hose to be able to connect a fresh water hose to supply water while running the engine on the hard stands? Thanks, Darr LaFon Alcyone II, Cal 33-2 Annapolis, Maryland _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Waschka Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:11 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation On my boat they were loops of re-bar, pretty clearly confirming Charlie's supposition. Al --- On Thu, 3/11/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:04 AM Hi, Reg. Could have been used to get the lead slug in there in the first place. Lifting hooks? Cheers Charlie _____ From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25, need infomation I have one other question: Since the keel is encapsulated, can anyone tell me, what are the three rusty studs in my bilge? .....Charlie, Wilkie and dEmO

This is great. I was contemplating something similar, but you hit the nail on the head by using the bilge as the reservoir. My problem was keep the water lines free of ice during the winter and this solution works on many levels inclusive of a backup bilge pump. Many thanks. /ch

--- On Thu, 3/11/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Veering is the opposite of Backing. When the wind veers it shifts in a clockwise direction. Wind backs when it shifts in a CC direction. Trivial knowledge obtained at the loss of making better use of precious time. As always, My Best, Mike Mike, What if a magazine article on sailing tactics talks about Veering vs. Clocking, if they are the same thing, or, did I miss something? I tried googling it last week and got nowhere, which isn't unusual lately. I blame it on Chines hackers. Maybe it also explains why one of the best match racing crews in sailing history took starting penalties at last months America's Cup. Speaking of the America's Cup I'm hoping the world's newest richest man on Earth, from Mexico, Carlos Slim Helu, will 'git wit de program' and enter a boat in the next Americas Cup; if he wins, the cup will still be in America, and Carlos may not be the richest man on Earth any longer. Jerry From: Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 2:14:41 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie' ) David, Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. I'm a visual kind of guy, I sometimes have a hard time reconstructing a procedure by reading word descriptions; pictures, like the old Popular Mechanics' "wordless workshop" are easier for me to follow. A picture is worth a thousand words. BTW,Does Veering mean turning clockwise, and clocking mean turning clockwise? Some sailing terms still misty fie me. On perfection: Trying to do something better than all the other guys, trying to achieve 'perfection' , has been a boon to my ego, but a cause of a great deal of trepidation in my life. As a (solar) contractor, if you try to do something 'perfect' the customer will often be horrified at the bill if it is time and materials, so I get so fearful of his/her reaction that I put off billing them altogether, and go broke. But solar is a lot like boats, if you don't dot the eyes and cross all the T'z, the system will fail to reach the longevity at which it becomes cost effective, which sinks the whole thing. A certain level of care pays great dividends in the long run, on the other hand, you can make a lot more money putting something defective that requires continual expensive call backs, till the owner throws in the towel. And another thing, it took me a long time till I could admit to the wisdom of replacing something vs. trying the fix the old one. I guess that's why some people opt for buying new boats vs. trying to fix old ones, which are incredibly dirt cheap by comparison. Anyway, my hat is off to people like "Wilkie" and Charlie, oh yeah, and the rest of us, for the hard work they and we have put into restoring these classic, irreplaceable beauties, nor should we be hesitant to take great pride in them. Who said "time spent messing around with boats is time well spent"? Jerry --- On Thu, 3/11/10, r good <my1972ih@hotmail. com> wrote: From: r good <my1972ih@hotmail. com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: cal_boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 10:45 AM kneeling not required To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:34:48 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 It's an illness that I'm starting to cure myself of. I have a 10 year plan to sail Mariposa into a watery grave, come what may. No More Projects. I look forward to sailing on "Submit" if and when I can make a chance. I would love to crew for you guys on an adventure. W On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:31 AM, r good wrote: Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! Reggie To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen <Sole.jpg> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry

hi David thanks for the up-date and the Great Web site for your Cal 29 you truly have made the proper boat all the work is well just great a model for all of us to follow. I will try my best but it will never look like a David (Wilkie) boat I give you the award for best up-graded 29 any time. Your knowledge is well endless So I will try and hope for the best I needit the winds are strong in the SF 30-35knts is common. Regards scott -- On Thu, 3/11/10, David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] cox.net> wrote: From: David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] cox.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:34 AM It's an illness that I'm starting to cure myself of. I have a 10 year plan to sail Mariposa into a watery grave, come what may. No More Projects. I look forward to sailing on "Submit" if and when I can make a chance. I would love to crew for you guys on an adventure. W On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:31 AM, r good wrote: Love seeing a Cal which has been "Wilkied". gorgeous. Barbara wants to know why you aren't here at "Submit" "Wilkieing" our boat? I told her we are not in a position to afford perfection yet! Reggie To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: dw… [at] cox.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:09:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex, was: 1968 Cal 25 Guys, It's hard for me to make time to be very helpful on this subject right now, but I hate to sit back in silence when a subject comes up that I have a great deal of experience dealing with. Roger Jones did talk about the inevitability of structural failures with these flexing glass structures a year or so before the fateful haulout where I noticed a very marked difference in the deflection of my keel. The bottom paint had popped off in large flakes from the curved are where the keel meets the bottom and the keel was noticeably flopping around as she came out of the water. I could grab the keel with my hand and make it wobble so severely that the garboard areas would pump up and down. The keel deflection was at least 3 or 4 inches at the bottom. Fin Bevin was very helpful in hooking me up with some serious boat builders, and the yard had some ideas and I eventually got together with Mike Pyzel -- a retired Coasty who is an acredited Naval Surveyor and has personally rebuilt and modified a Cal 28 for blue water use. His ideas reinforced my own thinking and experience, and also Roger's advice and concerns and a plan was put into action. To make a long process fit into a paragraph before I crawl into bed tonight, I will tell you that I cut the salon pan out, ground the hull down to clean glass, cut out the plywood bilge bulkheads, re-glassed the pan sides to the hull, re-glassed new engine stringers into the aft end of the pan, added several layers of 17 oz. bi-axial cloth through the bilge and up into the hull, re-installed new bilge bullkheads with ribs that tapered towards the end and installed a laminated 3/4" plywood salon floor, which included a veneer of teak and holly. It soundes like a lot of glass, but I don't think I added a significant amount of weight, and what I did add improved her performance enough to make it worth doing. When it was all done, I could throw my shoulder against the keel and it wouldn't budge -- nada! The difference in performance was unreal. The boat tracks better, points higher and when the puffs hit, she heels a bit and accelerates instead of rounding up immediately and the garboard area would flex up and down in a horific manner. Those who are concerned should do some basic research through the Cal List archives to understand what the factors were. I also had some prior owner mods to the engine beds that affected the impending failures that I had to correct. UNFORTUNATELY -- though I took many photos of the process, my hard drive melted and I lost all of them before I could back them up. I can write up some more information for those who are concerned if you give me some time. David "Wilkie" Owen <Sole.jpg> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Scott, Our official site guru and kahuna on all things having to do with Cal 29 structural deficiencies is: ...tah dahhhh... "David Wilkie Owen" <dw… [at] cox.net> He has both replaced the "dreaded beam" which provides structural strength between the mast, hull and keel, and shrouds, and he has reinforced his keel recently (this Fall). I have a hunch he will chime in on this. Jerry

The meta-info in veering vs backing (in Northern Hemisphere) was that veering generally meant a high pressure was approaching, and backing the other - or bad weather on the way. Relative to present circumstances, of course. - Nick From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike farrell Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:45 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') Veering is the opposite of Backing. When the wind veers it shifts in a clockwise direction. Wind backs when it shifts in a CC direction. Trivial knowledge obtained at the loss of making better use of precious time. As always, My Best, Mike

This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to part with under these circumstances. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> > wrote: > > > > David, > > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what > "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN > yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you > either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a > hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some > companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled > hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, > such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. > > Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard > drive. The drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually > still intact. Buy a new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set > your old drive as a slave and you should be able to access the files > on that drive. > > Good luck, > John > > >

A friend got his data off by getting a used drive of the same model number and switching the control boards. That sound most likely is just the drive arm being told to do random things by a faulty control board. Drives can make a surprisingly large amount of noise without the arm hitting the disk. If the arm hit the disk, no amount of money is getting your data back. Allen On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 7:50 AM, David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] cox.net> wrote: > > > > > This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling > and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, > who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was > the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some > of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did > this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they > retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest > boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work > and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to > part with under these circumstances. > > David > > > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald > Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" > it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about > recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the > disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to > wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable > info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious > purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. > > Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The > drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a > new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave > and you should be able to access the files on that drive. > > Good luck, > John > > > >

I spent 25 years designing small commercial boats and ships. If you want to go the gold-plate route there's a company called GEMS-Danaher (previously known as IMO-Delaval Gems and GEMS Sensors) that makes a wonderful, enclosed float switch. Prepare to get a cramp in your check-writing hand though. Otherwise, for cheap, non-critical use we would specify MAYFAIR float switches. They had a rolling stainless ball inside, versus the liquid mercury inside RULE switches. Mercury in an aluminum hull is like dry-rot in a wooden one; if it gets loose, you have BIG trouble. They won't last forever, but they're cheap to replace. On 3/11/10, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > This is great. I was contemplating something similar, but you hit the nail > on the head by using the bilge as the reservoir. My problem was keep the > water lines free of ice during the winter and this solution works on many > levels inclusive of a backup bilge pump. > > Many thanks. > > /ch >

I really doubt that there is mercury in switches any more. Probably why they don't work as well. Allen On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 7:59 AM, Robert Thompson <ca… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > I spent 25 years designing small commercial boats and ships. > > If you want to go the gold-plate route there's a company called > GEMS-Danaher (previously known as IMO-Delaval Gems and GEMS Sensors) > that makes a wonderful, enclosed float switch. Prepare to get a cramp > in your check-writing hand though. > > Otherwise, for cheap, non-critical use we would specify MAYFAIR float > switches. They had a rolling stainless ball inside, versus the liquid > mercury inside RULE switches. Mercury in an aluminum hull is like > dry-rot in a wooden one; if it gets loose, you have BIG trouble. They > won't last forever, but they're cheap to replace. > > > On 3/11/10, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com<chris.herrnberger%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > This is great. I was contemplating something similar, but you hit the > nail > > on the head by using the bilge as the reservoir. My problem was keep the > > water lines free of ice during the winter and this solution works on many > > levels inclusive of a backup bilge pump. > > > > Many thanks. > > > > /ch > > > > >

Yep, David. In my classic work computer crash of 2004 (also mechanical), it was about $1K for the search. I got a CD of "Good Files" and "Bad Files". I recovered about 1/2 of my stuff. Fortunately, the company paid. I now have several external and portable hard drives (USB) that I back up stuff onto. On sale, these can be $70 or so for a hundred gigs or more. Cheap insurance. An old trick I've heard of. If the drive appears to be dying (sometimes, they give symptoms before the crash), put the computer in a freezer for a couple hours. When it comes out, the disc might live long enough to allow some information transfer. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Wilkie Owen Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to part with under these circumstances. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > David, > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave and you should be able to access the files on that drive. Good luck, John

OK, I feel the need to comment on this... Why??? Because I have been working on computer hardware and software for 30+ years. I would never put a PC in the freezer. When removed, it is way too likely that there will be condensation that makes things go from bad to worse. However, I do agree that a lot of problems people encounter are heat related. There is a product called "Circuit Freeze", about $10 a can, that may help. I hear it's also good for dealing with wasp nests. YMMV, --Michael-- From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 1:44:23 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') Yep, David. In my classic work computer crash of 2004 (also mechanical), it was about $1K for the search. I got a CD of "Good Files" and "Bad Files". I recovered about 1/2 of my stuff. Fortunately, the company paid. I now have several external and portable hard drives (USB) that I back up stuff onto. On sale, these can be $70 or so for a hundred gigs or more. Cheap insurance. An old trick I've heard of. If the drive appears to be dying (sometimes, they give symptoms before the crash), put the computer in a freezer for a couple hours. When it comes out, the disc might live long enough to allow some information transfer. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of David Wilkie Owen Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:50 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie' ) This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to part with under these circumstances. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ ...> wrote: >> >> David, >> Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost > photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet > (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either > have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format > them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in > retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the > same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, > etc. > >Most drive > problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The drive is > unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a new hard > drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave and you > should be able to access the files on that drive. > >Good luck, >John > >

Connected to IT: Corporate use: Yosemite FileKeeper Pro 2.8 Personal use: Carbonite. Disconnected from IT - Data Sticks (4gig)/ iPod (160gig) / Cell phone(2 gig) for "important files" Sailing content. Returning from Hawaii in 2006 & 2008, Each of my two laptops had a glitch, one laptop could run Navigation only - the other could run only the SSB email communications software. (unbeknownst to me - I upgraded one computers display bios - which invalidated the security code key for a piece of software) So we had to download weather comm. Data on one computer, and then using either my camera data card or iPod, we had to transfer data to the second computer. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:44 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') Yep, David. In my classic work computer crash of 2004 (also mechanical), it was about $1K for the search. I got a CD of "Good Files" and "Bad Files". I recovered about 1/2 of my stuff. Fortunately, the company paid. I now have several external and portable hard drives (USB) that I back up stuff onto. On sale, these can be $70 or so for a hundred gigs or more. Cheap insurance. An old trick I've heard of. If the drive appears to be dying (sometimes, they give symptoms before the crash), put the computer in a freezer for a couple hours. When it comes out, the disc might live long enough to allow some information transfer. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Wilkie Owen Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to part with under these circumstances. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > David, > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave and you should be able to access the files on that drive. Good luck, John

Michael, here is some stuff on it. http://digg.com/hardware/Freeze_your_hard_drive_to_recover_data:_Myth_or_Reality_ Also a bit of guidance on possible software solutions. Obviously, info on the web is worth what it costs. I was told that the process briefly tightens mechanical connections that are getting sloppy loose. The sailing content is that I should take my computer Frostbite racing. But, hey, we are back in the 50s and all but the snow pile mountains have melted. Had it been colder, this weekend would have been a doozy of a snowstorm. Next trivia question. Where did "doozy" come from. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:59 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') OK, I feel the need to comment on this... Why??? Because I have been working on computer hardware and software for 30+ years. I would never put a PC in the freezer. When removed, it is way too likely that there will be condensation that makes things go from bad to worse. However, I do agree that a lot of problems people encounter are heat related. There is a product called "Circuit Freeze<http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PTR-7400/FREEZE-SPRAY-10-OZ-CAN/-/1.html#>", about $10 a can, that may help. I hear it's also good for dealing with wasp nests. YMMV, --Michael-- From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 1:44:23 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie') Yep, David. In my classic work computer crash of 2004 (also mechanical), it was about $1K for the search. I got a CD of "Good Files" and "Bad Files". I recovered about 1/2 of my stuff. Fortunately, the company paid. I now have several external and portable hard drives (USB) that I back up stuff onto. On sale, these can be $70 or so for a hundred gigs or more. Cheap insurance. An old trick I've heard of. If the drive appears to be dying (sometimes, they give symptoms before the crash), put the computer in a freezer for a couple hours. When it comes out, the disc might live long enough to allow some information transfer. Cheers Charlie From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://ps.com> [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com<http://s.com>] On Behalf Of David Wilkie Owen Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:50 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel flex,('Wilkie' ) This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to part with under these circumstances. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ ...> wrote: > > David, > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave and you should be able to access the files on that drive. Good luck, John

I have had a couple of good years out of the electronic Water Witch switch, which has a delay for both turning the pump on and turning it off. This prevents cycling of the pump from wave action or back flow. Harleigh Ewell From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Float switches and I spent 25 years designing small commercial boats and ships. If you want to go the gold-plate route there's a company called GEMS-Danaher (previously known as IMO-Delaval Gems and GEMS Sensors) that makes a wonderful, enclosed float switch. Prepare to get a cramp in your check-writing hand though. Otherwise, for cheap, non-critical use we would specify MAYFAIR float switches. They had a rolling stainless ball inside, versus the liquid mercury inside RULE switches. Mercury in an aluminum hull is like dry-rot in a wooden one; if it gets loose, you have BIG trouble. They won't last forever, but they're cheap to replace. On 3/11/10, chris123 <chris.herrnberger@ <mailto:chris.herrnberger%40gmail.com> gmail.com> wrote: > This is great. I was contemplating something similar, but you hit the nail > on the head by using the bilge as the reservoir. My problem was keep the > water lines free of ice during the winter and this solution works on many > levels inclusive of a backup bilge pump. > > Many thanks. > > /ch > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4940 (20100312) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Not to get into any distro war, but this is one of the reasons I run Linux and windows via virtual box. Once windows is loaded to the spec I need a snapshot is taken and all data is on a shared folder on the Linux file system. In that manner when windows gets nasty for any reason, just reload the snapshot, (your baseline) and all data is present. A good diagnostic tool to recover hard drives if not subject to physical damage is knopix on a pen drive. Its pretty hard core so you need some basic unix skills to recover the drive data but its all on the net. http://www.knoppix.net/get.php I'm not that far yet but testing the Asus 1000HE and well pleased with it. As the budget allows, will get two of the newer models so everything is redundant with automated backups to keep the two putters in sync. Its not overkill if you rely on this stuff as its all failure prone at some point. Best regards /ch On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:21 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > Connected to IT: > Corporate use: Yosemite FileKeeper Pro 2.8 > > Personal use: Carbonite. > > > > Disconnected from IT – Data Sticks (4gig)/ iPod (160gig) / Cell phone(2 > gig) for “important files” > > > > Sailing content. > > > > Returning from Hawaii in 2006 & 2008, Each of my two laptops had a glitch, > one laptop could run Navigation only – the other could run only the SSB > email communications software. (unbeknownst to me – I upgraded one computers > display bios – which invalidated the security code key for a piece of > software) > > > > So we had to download weather comm. Data on one computer, and then using > either my camera data card or iPod, we had to transfer data to the second > computer. > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] > *Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 10:44 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel > flex,('Wilkie') > > > > > > Yep, David. In my classic work computer crash of 2004 (also mechanical), > it was about $1K for the search. I got a CD of "Good Files" and "Bad > Files". I recovered about 1/2 of my stuff. Fortunately, the company paid. > I now have several external and portable hard drives (USB) that I back up > stuff onto. On sale, these can be $70 or so for a hundred gigs or more. > Cheap insurance. > > > > An old trick I've heard of. If the drive appears to be dying (sometimes, > they give symptoms before the crash), put the computer in a freezer for a > couple hours. When it comes out, the disc might live long enough to allow > some information transfer. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *David Wilkie Owen > *Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 10:50 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel > flex,('Wilkie') > > > > > > This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" scrabbling > and scratching across the disc. After much research and two looks by techs, > who tried to access it with other computers and software, the verdict was > the drive had to go to a specialist for physical dissasembly and then some > of it could likely be saved. I found numerous places on the web that did > this sort of work, but the minimum cost was around $900 whether they > retrieved any jpegs or not, and everything was backed up except my latest > boat pictures. The decision was painful, because I like to document my work > and had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to > part with under these circumstances. > > > > David > > > > > > > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: > > > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald > Sobel <sobel_solar@...> wrote: > > > > David, > > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what "melting" > it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN yesterday) about > recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you either have to shatter the > disks, which are glass based, with a hammer or re-format them to zeros to > wipe out the info on it; some companies specialize in retrieving valuable > info from disabled hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious > purposes, such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. > > Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard drive. The > drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually still intact. Buy a > new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set your old drive as a slave > and you should be able to access the files on that drive. > > Good luck, > John > > > > > -- /ch

Hi Cal Boaters, My day job is corporate IT for UCSB, and backups are always a challenge - whether qty, window, frequency, off-site, platforms, etc. and we have some pretty serious tech applied to it. At home over the years I have used tape (urk - the DAT tape rack is still on the wall WITH tapes), disk-to-disk, Retrospect to mirrored data stores, and many others. Invariably the more important the data, the more likely you won't have the generation you want, nor the time to back it up. Needs to happen automagically. And the ability to restore is the important part. *IF* you have full-time internet access, far and away the way to go is the online backup services. Whether idrive, mozy, carbonite or my current fav Backblaze - $50/year for unlimited storage. I have my PC backing up, which still mirrors to the home server. More importantly my wife's machine also backs up - and I don't have to worry what digital pix she has there that I may not have mirrored elsewhere. And a very weak stab at something sailing relevant - I have an iphone with 2 or 3 sailing related apps, and many docs on my home PC that are relevant to Footloose, our Cal 34. I use the free version of DropBox to sync my boating stuff between the home computer, my work computer and my iphone. I needed to reference the install docs on the Electric Yacht motor last weekend. There was a hardcopy somewhere in the workroom the boat currently is, but the PDF was right there on the iphone via dropbox in a moment. Kirk Cal 2-34 Footloose Ventura, CA On 3/12/2010 8:26 PM, chris123 wrote: > > > Not to get into any distro war, but this is one of the reasons I run > Linux and windows via virtual box. Once windows is loaded to the spec I > need a snapshot is taken and all data is on a shared folder on the Linux > file system. In that manner when windows gets nasty for any reason, just > reload the snapshot, (your baseline) and all data is present. > > A good diagnostic tool to recover hard drives if not subject to physical > damage is knopix on a pen drive. Its pretty hard core so you need some > basic unix skills to recover the drive data but its all on the net. > > http://www.knoppix.net/get.php <http://www.knoppix.net/get.php> > > I'm not that far yet but testing the Asus 1000HE and well pleased with > it. As the budget allows, will get two of the newer models so everything > is redundant with automated backups to keep the two putters in sync. Its > not overkill if you rely on this stuff as its all failure prone at some > point. > > Best regards > > /ch > > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:21 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com > <mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: > > Connected to IT: > Corporate use: Yosemite FileKeeper Pro 2.8 > > Personal use: Carbonite. > > Disconnected from IT – Data Sticks (4gig)/ iPod (160gig) / Cell > phone(2 gig) for “important files” > > Sailing content. > > Returning from Hawaii in 2006 & 2008, Each of my two laptops had a > glitch, one laptop could run Navigation only – the other could run > only the SSB email communications software. (unbeknownst to me – I > upgraded one computers display bios – which invalidated the security > code key for a piece of software) > > So we had to download weather comm. Data on one computer, and then > using either my camera data card or iPod, we had to transfer data to > the second computer. > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] > *Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 10:44 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel > flex,('Wilkie') > > Yep, David. In my classic work computer crash of 2004 (also > mechanical), it was about $1K for the search. I got a CD of "Good > Files" and "Bad Files". I recovered about 1/2 of my stuff. > Fortunately, the company paid. I now have several external and > portable hard drives (USB) that I back up stuff onto. On sale, > these can be $70 or so for a hundred gigs or more. Cheap insurance. > > An old trick I've heard of. If the drive appears to be dying > (sometimes, they give symptoms before the crash), put the computer > in a freezer for a couple hours. When it comes out, the disc might > live long enough to allow some information transfer. > > Cheers > > Charlie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *David Wilkie Owen > *Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 10:50 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Melting hard drives, was RE: Keel > flex,('Wilkie') > > This was a mechanical failure. You could hear the little "arm" > scrabbling and scratching across the disc. After much research and > two looks by techs, who tried to access it with other computers and > software, the verdict was the drive had to go to a specialist for > physical dissasembly and then some of it could likely be saved. I > found numerous places on the web that did this sort of work, but the > minimum cost was around $900 whether they retrieved any jpegs or > not, and everything was backed up except my latest boat pictures. > The decision was painful, because I like to document my work and > had taken a couple of hundred photos, but that was too much money to > part with under these circumstances. > > David > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, John Caldwell wrote: > > > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@...> > wrote: > > > > David, > > Just wondering about the hard drive, the lost photos, and what > "melting" it means. They just had something on the internet (MSN > yesterday) about recovering info from hard drive disks; seems you > either have to shatter the disks, which are glass based, with a > hammer or re-format them to zeros to wipe out the info on it; some > companies specialize in retrieving valuable info from disabled > hard drives, while others do the same, but for nefarious purposes, > such as snatching personal info, passwords, etc. > > Most drive problems are due to software malfunction on your hard > drive. The drive is unusable as it is, but the files are usually > still intact. Buy a new hard drive and make it the master drive. Set > your old drive as a slave and you should be able to access the files > on that drive. > > Good luck, > John > > > > > -- > /ch > -- Kirk Grier kg… [at] kirkgrier.com

I love Dropbox. On 3/12/10, Kirk Grier <kg… [at] kirkgrier.com> wrote: > > Hi Cal Boaters, > > My day job is corporate IT for UCSB, and backups are always a challenge > - whether qty, window, frequency, off-site, platforms, etc. and we have > some pretty serious tech applied to it. At home over the years I have > used tape (urk - the DAT tape rack is still on the wall WITH tapes), > disk-to-disk, Retrospect to mirrored data stores, and many others. > > Invariably the more important the data, the more likely you won't have > the generation you want, nor the time to back it up. Needs to happen > automagically. And the ability to restore is the important part. > > *IF* you have full-time internet access, far and away the way to go is > the online backup services. Whether idrive, mozy, carbonite or my > current fav Backblaze - $50/year for unlimited storage. I have my PC > backing up, which still mirrors to the home server. More importantly my > wife's machine also backs up - and I don't have to worry what digital > pix she has there that I may not have mirrored elsewhere. > > And a very weak stab at something sailing relevant - I have an iphone > with 2 or 3 sailing related apps, and many docs on my home PC that are > relevant to Footloose, our Cal 34. I use the free version of DropBox to > sync my boating stuff between the home computer, my work computer and my > iphone. I needed to reference the install docs on the Electric Yacht > motor last weekend. There was a hardcopy somewhere in the workroom the > boat currently is, but the PDF was right there on the iphone via dropbox > in a moment. > > Kirk > Cal 2-34 Footloose > Ventura, CA > >

Charlie, In another life I was maniacally involved with cars, much as I am now with sailing. A "Doozy, or something really special, was a reference to the Deussenberg (sp)automobile. This was a very high-line car of the 20's and early 30's, always very special as they were all custom bodied. Fred Haas, a font of little known facts and useless information 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > The sailing content is that I should take my computer Frostbite > racing. But, hey, we are back in the 50s and all but the snow pile > mountains have melted. Had it been colder, this weekend would have > been a doozy of a snowstorm. Next trivia question. Where did > "doozy" come from. > > Cheers > Charlie > > > > . > >

Years ago I went to the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum in Auburn, Indiana. http://www.automobilemuseum.org/About/Pages/default.aspx Well worth a visit if you're in the neighborhood. Duesenberg was started in Indianapolis, if memory serves. Back in the early 1900s they were building race cars for the speedway there. Amazing things with wooden wheels and no seat belts that lapped Indy at over 100 mph when it was paved with bricks! From: Fred Haas Sent: Sun 3/14/2010 10:14 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Doozy Charlie, In another life I was maniacally involved with cars, much as I am now with sailing. A "Doozy, or something really special, was a reference to the Deussenberg (sp)automobile. This was a very high-line car of the 20's and early 30's, always very special as they were all custom bodied. Fred Haas, a font of little known facts and useless information 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: The sailing content is that I should take my computer Frostbite racing. But, hey, we are back in the 50s and all but the snow pile mountains have melted. Had it been colder, this weekend would have been a doozy of a snowstorm. Next trivia question. Where did "doozy" come from. Cheers Charlie .

I had a friend named Lewis Fader whose father competed with mine by running Fader Ford as opposed to our family owned Rittenhouse Motor Company. We were an original 1914 Dodge dealership that started in the former livery stable of Newark, DE. Anyhow, Lewis' Dad owned a '30 something Duesenberg that was fully and beautifully restored. It had wood spoked wheels, a driver's compartment separate from the passenger salon, and was painted a light tan with deep brown leather upholstery. Must have been 30 feet long!! He and his date were the hit of the Prom when they arrived with his father driving the "Duesey" and he and his date riding in the back. To top it off, they stepped out of the car and Lewis somehow had found an old-fashioned long tail tux complete with top-hat and silver topped cane and his date had a hoop skirt dress. I will never, ever forget the impact that had on our dance! However, years later, when I ran my boat dealership "The One Design Sailor" in Clear Lake, Texas, two of my teenage employees approached me with a unique plan for their prom. It was to be held at a brand new waterfront hotel on Clear Lake that had a marina attached as part of the hotel grounds. So..... we ordered 4 complete Steak dinners to be catered by a Kemah, TX steakhouse and my two employees brought their dates to Watergate Marina where I docked my Cal just outside of my store. To honor the situation, I strung lights from the mast head, dressed ship with flags, dressed myself in coat, tie, and shorts, hung lights from the inside of my 14' bmini and they ate their prom dinner in the cockpit while slowly motoring the length of Clear Lake from Watergate to the hotel. Having informed the hotel of the boys' plans, the hotel sent a formally dressed concierge to the fuel dock to greet my passengers and parade them to the Prom! They were greeted by a standing ovation from their friends as Lewis and his date were at my prom! That night, Quantum Evolution was a "Duesey" of a boat!! Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: "Elwers, George A." <ge… [at] saic.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 9:07:17 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Doozy Years ago I went to the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum in Auburn, Indiana. http://www.automobi lemuseum. org/About/ Pages/default. aspx Well worth a visit if you're in the neighborhood. Duesenberg was started in Indianapolis, if memory serves. Back in the early 1900s they were building race cars for the speedway there. Amazing things with wooden wheels and no seat belts that lapped Indy at over 100 mph when it was paved with bricks! From: Fred Haas Sent: Sun 3/14/2010 10:14 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Doozy Charlie, In another life I was maniacally involved with cars, much as I am now with sailing. A "Doozy, or something really special, was a reference to the Deussenberg (sp)automobile. This was a very high-line car of the 20's and early 30's, always very special as they were all custom bodied. Fred Haas, a font of little known facts and useless information 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

Speaking of another life..do you think my first car, that I can't part with, a Ford Econoline van E-100 with it's earth shuddering 144 cubic inch six (a stunning 80HP) that's rusting away, filled with junk, with it's cracking tires (one with an unfindable slow like that has to be pumped up by hand every two weeks)...was really a Doozenboig in another life?? Kuel! I'm sure my Cal 24 Oldie was really an America's Cup winner in another life, too! Woooo Whooo! Jerry --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com> wrote: From: Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Doozy To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 9:07 AM Years ago I went to the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum in Auburn, Indiana. http://www.automobi lemuseum. org/About/ Pages/default. aspx Well worth a visit if you're in the neighborhood. Duesenberg was started in Indianapolis, if memory serves. Back in the early 1900s they were building race cars for the speedway there. Amazing things with wooden wheels and no seat belts that lapped Indy at over 100 mph when it was paved with bricks! From: Fred Haas Sent: Sun 3/14/2010 10:14 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Doozy Charlie, In another life I was maniacally involved with cars, much as I am now with sailing. A "Doozy, or something really special, was a reference to the Deussenberg (sp)automobile. This was a very high-line car of the 20's and early 30's, always very special as they were all custom bodied. Fred Haas, a font of little known facts and useless information 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: The sailing content is that I should take my computer Frostbite racing. But, hey, we are back in the 50s and all but the snow pile mountains have melted. Had it been colder, this weekend would have been a doozy of a snowstorm. Next trivia question. Where did "doozy" come from. Cheers Charlie .

My Uncle Joseph A Howarth drove Deusenberg limos in the 1930's in San Francisco. He would sometimes drive the "flower load" which meant he would leave with flowers after the funeral but arrive before the procession got to the cemetary. He told me that you could push a Deusenberg across a floor with one hand. My cousin has a photo of the Deusenberg brothers Augie and Fred and my Uncle Joe taken at Indianapolis Motor Speedway in the thirties at a Memoria Day 500 race. He was there as a guest of the Brothers when their cars were racing. My first real job at 16 years old was in Uncle Joe's auto wrecking yard in San Francisco in 1961. He was my Godfather( my Dad's Sister's Husband ) We dismantled cars that today even in the condition they were in then would be worth 5 figures! Who knew? What will my 1967 Cal 20 be worth in 40 years? My Best, Mike Farrell From: Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 9:58:15 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Doozy (George) I had a friend named Lewis Fader whose father competed with mine by running Fader Ford as opposed to our family owned Rittenhouse Motor Company. We were an original 1914 Dodge dealership that started in the former livery stable of Newark, DE. Anyhow, Lewis' Dad owned a '30 something Duesenberg that was fully and beautifully restored. It had wood spoked wheels, a driver's compartment separate from the passenger salon, and was painted a light tan with deep brown leather upholstery. Must have been 30 feet long!! He and his date were the hit of the Prom when they arrived with his father driving the "Duesey" and he and his date riding in the back. To top it off, they stepped out of the car and Lewis somehow had found an old-fashioned long tail tux complete with top-hat and silver topped cane and his date had a hoop skirt dress. I will never, ever forget the impact that had on our dance! However, years later, when I ran my boat dealership "The One Design Sailor" in Clear Lake, Texas, two of my teenage employees approached me with a unique plan for their prom. It was to be held at a brand new waterfront hotel on Clear Lake that had a marina attached as part of the hotel grounds. So..... we ordered 4 complete Steak dinners to be catered by a Kemah, TX steakhouse and my two employees brought their dates to Watergate Marina where I docked my Cal just outside of my store. To honor the situation, I strung lights from the mast head, dressed ship with flags, dressed myself in coat, tie, and shorts, hung lights from the inside of my 14' bmini and they ate their prom dinner in the cockpit while slowly motoring the length of Clear Lake from Watergate to the hotel. Having informed the hotel of the boys' plans, the hotel sent a formally dressed concierge to the fuel dock to greet my passengers and parade them to the Prom! They were greeted by a standing ovation from their friends as Lewis and his date were at my prom! That night, Quantum Evolution was a "Duesey" of a boat!! Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: "Elwers, George A." <ge… [at] saic.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 9:07:17 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Doozy Years ago I went to the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum in Auburn, Indiana. http://www.automobi lemuseum. org/About/ Pages/default. aspx Well worth a visit if you're in the neighborhood. Duesenberg was started in Indianapolis, if memory serves. Back in the early 1900s they were building race cars for the speedway there. Amazing things with wooden wheels and no seat belts that lapped Indy at over 100 mph when it was paved with bricks! From: Fred Haas Sent: Sun 3/14/2010 10:14 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Doozy Charlie, In another life I was maniacally involved with cars, much as I am now with sailing. A "Doozy, or something really special, was a reference to the Deussenberg (sp)automobile. This was a very high-line car of the 20's and early 30's, always very special as they were all custom bodied. Fred Haas, a font of little known facts and useless information 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma