Cal29 Bow Roller

Greets: BayBreeze came with a really nice setup for standard danforth anchors. Works well. However I'm considering adding a Bruce (imitation) to the inventory and build a bow roller (have friend who is a welder). Looking at the pics of Mariposa raises some questions however. 1. With the roller assembly placed at an angle to avoid the roller furler assembly and the cleats located approx 3 feet from the bow (working from memory here) it seems that once force is applied to the rode this will place considerable pressure on the same side of the anchor roller mechanism that the cleat that the rode is tied off on. 2. If this is correct what would be the work around, if it not an issue that's cool. One less issue to address. I suppose one could angle the roller sufficiently to align the roller, rode and cleat, but this would put considerable pressure on the forefront of the roller mechanism. Not sure what to do here or if its a real concern or not. What I noticed is that there is considerable swing on the 29 when the danforth is used and tied off on either cleat as the rode is extended more or less from the side of boat given the location of the forward cleats. I suppose someone could get ambitious and build in a Sampson post but that seems a bit overkill and then you would have to deal with friction and rubbing on the roller mechanism where it ties into the bow. Les used a length of line to create a bridle to bring the anchor rode in alignment with the bow and still have to test it. Was wondering if there are other solutions. Clues??? Best regards and thanks -- /ch

Chris: I also used an anchor sail that I had put together from a kit that I got from sailrite. The combination of the bridle and the anchor sail reduced swing at anchor a lot. From what I have read, the swing is a function fo the fin keel configuration. As far as an anchor roller, try the Garhauer site. They have several options at very reasonable prices. By the way, we have made an offer on (non Cal) replacement for Bay Breeze. Les Hester Formerly Bay Breeze 3-29 #1005 From: chris123 To: Cal Boats Sent: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 02:10:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal29 Bow Roller Greets: BayBreeze came with a really nice setup for standard danforth anchors. Works well. However I'm considering adding a Bruce (imitation) to the inventory and build a bow roller (have friend who is a welder). Looking at the pics of Mariposa raises some questions however. 1. With the roller assembly placed at an angle to avoid the roller furler assembly and the cleats located approx 3 feet from the bow (working from memory here) it seems that once force is applied to the rode this will place considerable pressure on the same side of the anchor roller mechanism that the cleat that the rode is tied off on. 2. If this is correct what would be the work around, if it not an issue that's cool. One less issue to address. I suppose one could angle the roller sufficiently to align the roller, rode and cleat, but this would put considerable pressure on the forefront of the roller mechanism. Not sure what to do here or if its a real concern or not. What I noticed is that there is considerable swing on the 29 when the danforth is used and tied off on either cleat as the rode is extended more or less from the side of boat given the location of the forward cleats. I suppose someone could get ambitious and build in a Sampson post but that seems a bit overkill and then you would have to deal with friction and rubbing on the roller mechanism where it ties into the bow. Les used a length of line to create a bridle to bring the anchor rode in alignment with the bow and still have to test it. Was wondering if there are other solutions. Clues??? Best regards and thanks -- /ch

I've embedded some responses into your text: On Apr 1, 2010, at 7:10 PM, chris123 wrote: > Greets: > > BayBreeze came with a really nice setup for standard danforth anchors. > Works well. However I'm considering adding a Bruce (imitation) to the > inventory and build a bow roller (have friend who is a welder). > Looking at the pics of Mariposa raises some questions however. > > 1. With the roller assembly placed at an angle to avoid the roller > furler assembly and the cleats located approx 3 feet from the bow > (working from memory here) it seems that once force is applied to the > rode this will place considerable pressure on the same side of the > anchor roller mechanism that the cleat that the rode is tied off on. > > With the same thoughts in mind, I installed a 10" stainless cleat (backed with a 3/4" oak block and a couple of layers of epoxied roving) in the center of the deck about a foot or so back from the hawse pipe fitting. This served the same purpose as a samson post with a lower profile. The anchor rode made a very straight shot from the roller and side plates in the front of the bow roller back to the large cleat. Despite the lower profile of the big central cleat, I discovered that it was a huge obstacle to foredeck work during racing. Lines snagged on it, foredeck crew tripped over it and it was generally in the way. So I removed it and was thinking about embedding giant T-nuts or such so I could put it off and on for cruising, but I never followed through. I went back to using the standard Cal 29 bow cleats, located on the gunnels at both sides of the foredeck. I was concerned about side loading the bow roller if I cleated off to the side but playing around with it, I became convinced that these loads were minimal because the direction of the pull was at a very shallow angle to the cleat(s) and there are many formulas that show how much of the load is handled by a fitting relative to the various angles that the line makes entering and exiting. I didn't bother with that, just made the empirical assumption that it was a small fraction of the over-all load, and the cleats were sized by the designer and builder to hold those loads. As for the bow roller; it is a U shaped channel bolted into one of the strongest molded forms of the boat (backed with a stainless piece of plate and held down with 1/2" stainless bolts thus that's not a strength issue. > 2. If this is correct what would be the work around, if it not an > issue that's cool. One less issue to address. I suppose one could > angle the roller sufficiently to align the roller, rode and cleat, but > this would put considerable pressure on the forefront of the roller > mechanism. Not sure what to do here or if its a real concern or not. > > So though it's obvious that I do not consider aligning these elements to be an issue because of the strength of the various components, their fasteners and the hull shape, the other concern that I had was CHAFE. I have tried pulling the rode back and cleating it directly to the bow cleats, and it works fine other than putting the boat at a bit of an angle to the wind. Our local Island Trips are usually for 3 days and 2 nights and that the size of the anchorages and usually number of boats on the weekend we are required to run a stern hook as well. The stern hook is cleated off to one side or the other as well. I've experimented with alternate or same side hooking for the two rodes with no definitive preference. Rolling is an issue with a bow-stern hook scenario and often the wind in the anchorage and the swell and wind waves can be at awkward angles to each other as they wrap around the point into the anchorage. We all pretty much swear by our "Flopper Stoppers" for this reason. I also have anchored with the rode passing through the bow roller and taken to the side cleat and watched it carefully for chafe. I think the various edges are soft enough that I haven't found any chafing in even the occasional high wind weekends. > What I noticed is that there is considerable swing on the 29 when the > danforth is used and tied off on either cleat as the rode is extended > more or less from the side of boat given the location of the forward > cleats. I suppose someone could get ambitious and build in a Sampson > post but that seems a bit overkill and then you would have to deal > with friction and rubbing on the roller mechanism where it ties into > the bow. Les used a length of line to create a bridle to bring the > anchor rode in alignment with the bow and still have to test it. Was > wondering if there are other solutions. > > The stern hook eliminates any concerns about swinging, but when I lived in the PNW I certainly experienced it and I would often run a line from the stern cleat a few yards up the rode with a rolling hitch and bring it back in to swing the boat more sideways to the wind. I don't think I ever found myself in a situation where it was really persistent enough to tell if it was going to be effective in any and all conditions, though. I intended to build a wind-sail to weather cock her, but once again didn't follow through as we so rarely go on a single hook at our So Cal Islands. Good luck figuring this out, and please update us with your results. Wilkie > Clues??? > > Best regards and thanks > > -- > /ch > >

Congratulations....will be in touch this weekend or shortly there after. The issue is not the swing, nor the sail which worked nice as tested rather the vector forces exerted on the roller when the rode is tied off on the cleat. In a gale there is going to be a lot of lateral pressure on the piece which implies very solid back bracing or an alternate arrangement of the roller. /ch

Thanks for your comments and ideas...comments in line. BayBreeze is a very well kept boat. I don't like using PO when you run into someone as friendly as L&L so hope Les and Lesly don't mind, but they took great care of the boat and set it up for weekend use and longer tours of the Chesapeake. I want to continue with this level of effort on the boat, however her usage will change to coastal cruiser so there are several things that need to be addressed. Changes will come as budgets and need arise. The anchoring system is close to the top so want to think this one through carefully. The most elegant way to do it is to build bow sprit with integrated roller, however this would too drastically change the design and I don't think the designer would approve. The second thought I had was to mount it dead ahead on the bow and integrate the roller fuller and fore stay into the arrangement. Had a few beers and took the dog for a walk and came back to reality. Far too much work. So took a look at Mariposa and I think this is the simplest arrangement. The other issue is the two bow cleats are showing signs of stress. The gelcoat is cracked down the fibreglass and common and symetrical on both cleats. Since the pressure lines are common, almost identical it is suggestive that there has been a lot of strain on these cleats. Will inspect them when I get back to see if I can both re-bed and backplate them for the trip home. Hence the questions on forces and vectors. BayBreeze came with two anchors (danforth's), one being a lunch hook, and an anchor sail so in that department she is well fitted complete with road and chain. Note to self, secure bitter end..:) > > With the same thoughts in mind, I installed a 10" stainless cleat (backed > with a 3/4" oak block and a couple of layers of epoxied roving) in the > center of the deck about a foot or so back from the hawse pipe fitting. > This served the same purpose as a samson post with a lower profile. The > anchor rode made a very straight shot from the roller and side plates in the > front of the bow roller back to the large cleat. Despite the lower profile > of the big central cleat, I discovered that it was a huge obstacle to > foredeck work during racing. > I don't race and probably wont even though everyone says its the best way to learn the boat. Perhaps will change my mind at some point....usually do....but anything can be removed, its all a matter of effort in and absence of forethought.....so thanks for the heads up. > Lines snagged on it, foredeck crew tripped over it and it was generally in > the way. So I removed it and was thinking about embedding giant T-nuts or > such so I could put it off and on for cruising, but I never followed > through. I went back to using the standard Cal 29 bow cleats, located on > the gunnels at both sides of the foredeck. > > I like this idea and I don't think it will get in the way for the following reasons. I have a Famet furler which requires the sail to be cut high in the first place plus there is a 12" strap attached to the foot of the sail to the furler. So there is little chance that the sail will get caught up there. Secondly while underway, the dink will be stored from the mast forward to the pulpit covering the entire assembly. If this does not work out, for whatever reason, the dink will go between the mast and the hatch, actually my preferred location. DInk is small for the dog really so she can do her stuff on shore. So this leaves only the sheets, to which the dink will be a greater obstruction then the cleat. If sailing without a dink, the cleat could be covered with something hard like a rounded cap home made or other so it does not become a catch point. I was concerned about side loading the bow roller if I cleated off to the > side but playing around with it, I became convinced that these loads were > minimal because the direction of the pull was at a very shallow angle to the > cleat(s) and there are many formulas that show how much of the load is > handled by a fitting relative to the various angles that the line makes > entering and exiting. I didn't bother with that, just made the empirical > assumption that it was a small fraction of the over-all load, and the cleats > were sized by the designer and builder to hold those loads. As for the bow > roller; it is a U shaped channel bolted into one of the strongest molded > forms of the boat (backed with a stainless piece of plate and held down with > 1/2" stainless bolts thus that's not a strength issue. > > OK...that's good news and thanks for the confirmation. My concerns was based on (a) the stress cracks, (b) the multiple gales, max 60mph winds that we experienced this winter while tied to the dock. Had all lines doubled, and two springers on for most of the winter. She took some serious pounding she did, and shows it. So want to make life a little easier for this girl. > 2. If this is correct what would be the work around, if it not an > issue that's cool. One less issue to address. I suppose one could > angle the roller sufficiently to align the roller, rode and cleat, but > this would put considerable pressure on the forefront of the roller > mechanism. Not sure what to do here or if its a real concern or not. > > So though it's obvious that I do not consider aligning these elements to be > an issue because of the strength of the various components, their fasteners > and the hull shape, the other concern that I had was CHAFE. > OK good. > I have tried pulling the rode back and cleating it directly to the bow > cleats, and it works fine other than putting the boat at a bit of an angle > to the wind. Our local Island Trips are usually for 3 days and 2 nights and > that the size of the anchorages and usually number of boats on the weekend > we are required to run a stern hook as well. The stern hook is cleated off > to one side or the other as well. I've experimented with alternate or same > side hooking for the two rodes with no definitive preference. Rolling is an > issue with a bow-stern hook scenario and often the wind in the anchorage and > the swell and wind waves can be at awkward angles to each other as they wrap > around the point into the anchorage. We all pretty much swear by our > "Flopper Stoppers" for this reason. > Never heard of Flopper Stoppers....google produced the following...rather cool and interesting. http://www.myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=1628 > > > I also have anchored with the rode passing through the bow roller and taken > to the side cleat and watched it carefully for chafe. I think the various > edges are soft enough that I haven't found any chafing in even the > occasional high wind weekends. > > > Thanks for the confirmation. Chafing can be an issue and and will take that into consideration. Lost my CS22 on the third day of ownership to cut line. Three consecutive days of high wind on the Ottawa River rubbed the line completely through and off she went off her mooring. Luckily the wind was on shore and she grounded herself on her swing keel, bobbing up and down with the keel firmly in the mud three feet from shore. Learned that lesson the hard way. Started the outboard, swung her around into the wind and goosed the engine and pulled the keel line at the same time. Not a scratch.....but called for several beers and an excuse to spend the day on her. BayBreeze will spend the summer in Picton Harbour on a mooring ball...:) Confirmation was received only two days ago. Coolest inland harbour with easy access to the best sailing grounds on the Lake Ontario (I would say Great Lakes, but Chris C would challenge me on that) http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Prince+endward+county+yacht+club&sll=44.013929,-77.131083&sspn=0.004722,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=Prince+endward+county+yacht+club&hnear=&ll=44.014963,-77.13443&spn=0.004722,0.013797&t=h&z=16 The winter will be at Port Credit Harbour Marina, properly winterized this time, and at the other end of the lake in the shadow of downtown Toronto. What I noticed is that there is considerable swing on the 29 when the > danforth is used and tied off on either cleat as the rode is extended > more or less from the side of boat given the location of the forward > cleats. I suppose someone could get ambitious and build in a Sampson > post but that seems a bit overkill and then you would have to deal > with friction and rubbing on the roller mechanism where it ties into > the bow. Les used a length of line to create a bridle to bring the > anchor rode in alignment with the bow and still have to test it. Was > wondering if there are other solutions. > > The stern hook eliminates any concerns about swinging, but when I lived in > the PNW I certainly experienced it and I would often run a line from the > stern cleat a few yards up the rode with a rolling hitch and bring it back > in to swing the boat more sideways to the wind. I don't think I ever found > myself in a situation where it was really persistent enough to tell if it > was going to be effective in any and all conditions, though. I intended to > build a wind-sail to weather cock her, but once again didn't follow through > as we so rarely go on a single hook at our So Cal Islands. > > Good luck figuring this out, and please update us with your results. > Thanks Wilkie for your comments. You gave me 90 percent of what I was looking for. The last 10 percent...is experience (errr trial and error)..:) Much appreciated and will update as things progress. Currently studying charts, tides and what not so see if we can run the Delaware in one day from the Canal to the Cape May. If the conditions are right, it can be done, but its a long day or night and the winds and tides have to align .BayBreeze can do hull speed on the new jib alone with the right wind. Hmmm anyone got a wijji board their not using...:) Best and many thanks /ch

Some Further notes on Anchor Rollers, etc: The Flopper-Stopper that several of us use locally is made by MagMa, the BBQ Kettle company. They work wonderful and are only $240 +/-. You can deploy it off of the end of your boom, or use a spinnaker pole, as I do. I've seen them in use on boats up to 40'. http://tinyurl.com/ygynenp My side-bow cleats were removed and I ground up the interiors, laid tri-axial cloth & epoxy in and added a small (shaped with a hand grinder) piece of oak for additional backing. The epoxy/cloth layup would probably be sufficient with heavy washers and there wouldn't be any future rot problems, though proper caulking and the durability of oak are going to give you many years without problems. I was talking to fellow Cal List member, Dan Casey ("Air Time" Cal 9.2R) at lunch today about these issues. He has noticed chafe on his rode from his bow roller, and uses one of those heavy canvas pieces of chafe-guard while at anchor. His 9.2 has an anchor locker, which eliminates the storage hassle. Adding an anchor locker was a project I thought to attempt, since I resent the weight of the Bruce sticking out past the bow of the boat. The time, money and effort required is maybe a bit extreme for me in my present frame of mind, so I continue with this solution for now. Dan also commented on inset cleats that he's seen on some fairly large yachts. His thinking was the central cleat would work and could then be recessed out of the way of lines, dinks, etc. I googled it and came up with Taco and Attwood products. I couldn't find any strength specifications, and have run out of time, but thought it worth talking about. Pricey, but maybe an elegant solution. http://tinyurl.com/ye54now HTH, Wilkie On Apr 2, 2010, at 12:12 PM, chris123 wrote: > Thanks for your comments and ideas...comments in line. > > > BayBreeze is a very well kept boat. I don't like using PO when you > run into someone as friendly as L&L so hope Les and Lesly don't > mind, but they took great care of the boat and set it up for weekend > use and longer tours of the Chesapeake. I want to continue with this > level of effort on the boat, however her usage will change to > coastal cruiser so there are several things that need to be > addressed. Changes will come as budgets and need arise. The > anchoring system is close to the top so want to think this one > through carefully. > > The most elegant way to do it is to build bow sprit with integrated > roller, however this would too drastically change the design and I > don't think the designer would approve. The second thought I had was > to mount it dead ahead on the bow and integrate the roller fuller > and fore stay into the arrangement. Had a few beers and took the dog > for a walk and came back to reality. Far too much work. So took a > look at Mariposa and I think this is the simplest arrangement. > > The other issue is the two bow cleats are showing signs of stress. > The gelcoat is cracked down the fibreglass and common and symetrical > on both cleats. Since the pressure lines are common, almost > identical it is suggestive that there has been a lot of strain on > these cleats. Will inspect them when I get back to see if I can both > re-bed and backplate them for the trip home. Hence the questions on > forces and vectors. > > BayBreeze came with two anchors (danforth's), one being a lunch > hook, and an anchor sail so in that department she is well fitted > complete with road and chain. Note to self, secure bitter end..:) > > > > With the same thoughts in mind, I installed a 10" stainless cleat > (backed with a 3/4" oak block and a couple of layers of epoxied > roving) in the center of the deck about a foot or so back from the > hawse pipe fitting. This served the same purpose as a samson post > with a lower profile. The anchor rode made a very straight shot > from the roller and side plates in the front of the bow roller back > to the large cleat. Despite the lower profile of the big central > cleat, I discovered that it was a huge obstacle to foredeck work > during racing. > > I don't race and probably wont even though everyone says its the > best way to learn the boat. Perhaps will change my mind at some > point....usually do....but anything can be removed, its all a matter > of effort in and absence of forethought.....so thanks for the heads > up. > > Lines snagged on it, foredeck crew tripped over it and it was > generally in the way. So I removed it and was thinking about > embedding giant T-nuts or such so I could put it off and on for > cruising, but I never followed through. I went back to using the > standard Cal 29 bow cleats, located on the gunnels at both sides of > the foredeck. > > I like this idea and I don't think it will get in the way for the > following reasons. I have a Famet furler which requires the sail to > be cut high in the first place plus there is a 12" strap attached to > the foot of the sail to the furler. So there is little chance that > the sail will get caught up there. Secondly while underway, the dink > will be stored from the mast forward to the pulpit covering the > entire assembly. If this does not work out, for whatever reason, the > dink will go between the mast and the hatch, actually my preferred > location. DInk is small for the dog really so she can do her stuff > on shore. So this leaves only the sheets, to which the dink will be > a greater obstruction then the cleat. If sailing without a dink, the > cleat could be covered with something hard like a rounded cap home > made or other so it does not become a catch point. > > I was concerned about side loading the bow roller if I cleated off > to the side but playing around with it, I became convinced that > these loads were minimal because the direction of the pull was at a > very shallow angle to the cleat(s) and there are many formulas that > show how much of the load is handled by a fitting relative to the > various angles that the line makes entering and exiting. I didn't > bother with that, just made the empirical assumption that it was a > small fraction of the over-all load, and the cleats were sized by > the designer and builder to hold those loads. As for the bow > roller; it is a U shaped channel bolted into one of the strongest > molded forms of the boat (backed with a stainless piece of plate and > held down with 1/2" stainless bolts thus that's not a strength issue. > > OK...that's good news and thanks for the confirmation. My concerns > was based on (a) the stress cracks, (b) the multiple gales, max > 60mph winds that we experienced this winter while tied to the dock. > Had all lines doubled, and two springers on for most of the winter. > She took some serious pounding she did, and shows it. So want to > make life a little easier for this girl. >> 2. If this is correct what would be the work around, if it not an >> issue that's cool. One less issue to address. I suppose one could >> angle the roller sufficiently to align the roller, rode and cleat, >> but >> this would put considerable pressure on the forefront of the roller >> mechanism. Not sure what to do here or if its a real concern or not. >> >> > > So though it's obvious that I do not consider aligning these > elements to be an issue because of the strength of the various > components, their fasteners and the hull shape, the other concern > that I had was CHAFE. > > OK good. > > I have tried pulling the rode back and cleating it directly to the > bow cleats, and it works fine other than putting the boat at a bit > of an angle to the wind. Our local Island Trips are usually for 3 > days and 2 nights and that the size of the anchorages and usually > number of boats on the weekend we are required to run a stern hook > as well. The stern hook is cleated off to one side or the other as > well. I've experimented with alternate or same side hooking for the > two rodes with no definitive preference. Rolling is an issue with a > bow-stern hook scenario and often the wind in the anchorage and the > swell and wind waves can be at awkward angles to each other as they > wrap around the point into the anchorage. We all pretty much swear > by our "Flopper Stoppers" for this reason. > > Never heard of Flopper Stoppers....google produced the > following...rather cool and interesting. > > http://www.myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=1628 > > I also have anchored with the rode passing through the bow roller > and taken to the side cleat and watched it carefully for chafe. I > think the various edges are soft enough that I haven't found any > chafing in even the occasional high wind weekends. > > > Thanks for the confirmation. Chafing can be an issue and and will > take that into consideration. Lost my CS22 on the third day of > ownership to cut line. Three consecutive days of high wind on the > Ottawa River rubbed the line completely through and off she went off > her mooring. Luckily the wind was on shore and she grounded herself > on her swing keel, bobbing up and down with the keel firmly in the > mud three feet from shore. Learned that lesson the hard way. Started > the outboard, swung her around into the wind and goosed the engine > and pulled the keel line at the same time. Not a scratch.....but > called for several beers and an excuse to spend the day on her. > > BayBreeze will spend the summer in Picton Harbour on a mooring > ball...:) Confirmation was received only two days ago. Coolest > inland harbour with easy access to the best sailing grounds on the > Lake Ontario (I would say Great Lakes, but Chris C would challenge > me on that) > > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Prince+endward+county+yacht+club&sll=44.013929,-77.131083&sspn=0.004722,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=Prince+endward+county+yacht+club&hnear=&ll=44.014963,-77.13443&spn=0.004722,0.013797&t=h&z=16 > > The winter will be at Port Credit Harbour Marina, properly > winterized this time, and at the other end of the lake in the shadow > of downtown Toronto. > >> What I noticed is that there is considerable swing on the 29 when the >> danforth is used and tied off on either cleat as the rode is extended >> more or less from the side of boat given the location of the forward >> cleats. I suppose someone could get ambitious and build in a Sampson >> post but that seems a bit overkill and then you would have to deal >> with friction and rubbing on the roller mechanism where it ties into >> the bow. Les used a length of line to create a bridle to bring the >> anchor rode in alignment with the bow and still have to test it. Was >> wondering if there are other solutions. >> >> > > The stern hook eliminates any concerns about swinging, but when I > lived in the PNW I certainly experienced it and I would often run a > line from the stern cleat a few yards up the rode with a rolling > hitch and bring it back in to swing the boat more sideways to the > wind. I don't think I ever found myself in a situation where it was > really persistent enough to tell if it was going to be effective in > any and all conditions, though. I intended to build a wind-sail to > weather cock her, but once again didn't follow through as we so > rarely go on a single hook at our So Cal Islands. > > Good luck figuring this out, and please update us with your results. > > Thanks Wilkie for your comments. You gave me 90 percent of what I > was looking for. The last 10 percent...is experience (errr trial and > error)..:) > > Much appreciated and will update as things progress. Currently > studying charts, tides and what not so see if we can run the > Delaware in one day from the Canal to the Cape May. If the > conditions are right, it can be done, but its a long day or night > and the winds and tides have to align .BayBreeze can do hull speed > on the new jib alone with the right wind. Hmmm anyone got a wijji > board their not using...:) > > Best and many thanks > > /ch > > >

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 4:08 PM, David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] cox.net> wrote: > > > > > Some Further notes on Anchor Rollers, etc: > > The Flopper-Stopper that several of us use locally is made by MagMa, the > BBQ Kettle company. They work wonderful and are only $240 +/-. You can > deploy it off of the end of your boom, or use a spinnaker pole, as I do. > I've seen them in use on boats up to 40'. > > *http://tinyurl.com/ygynenp > * > Excellent idea.... > * <http://tinyurl.com/ygynenp>* > * > * > My side-bow cleats were removed and I ground up the interiors, > Thats what I was wondering...if the inside liner pan had to be cut to access the cleats. Thanks for confirming that. Any more info on this would be appreciated . A picture would be worth a million..:) laid tri-axial cloth & epoxy in and added a small (shaped with a hand > grinder) piece of oak for additional backing. The epoxy/cloth layup would > probably be sufficient with heavy washers and there wouldn't be any future > rot problems, though proper caulking and the durability of oak are going to > give you many years without problems. > Yup thats the route to take. > > I was talking to fellow Cal List member, Dan Casey ("Air Time" Cal 9.2R) at > lunch today about these issues. He has noticed chafe on his rode from his > bow roller, and uses one of those heavy canvas pieces of chafe-guard while > at anchor. > At home we generally use leather, or very heavy wall rubber tubing 1/4-3/16 split along the length and snapped onto the rode where needed. Two stopper knots plus friction on the cleat keep it in place. > His 9.2 has an anchor locker, which eliminates the storage hassle. Adding > an anchor locker was a project I thought to attempt, since I resent the > weight of the Bruce sticking out past the bow of the boat. The time, money > and effort required is maybe a bit extreme for me in my present frame of > mind, so I continue with this solution for now. > > At some point, I want to spit the existing anchor locker in half to allow for two sets of rodes and chain to be haul out as needed. For now a milk crate will do the trick for the ride home. Anchor will be stored in the port locker in the cockpit. > Dan also commented on inset cleats that he's seen on some fairly large > yachts. His thinking was the central cleat would work and could then be > recessed out of the way of lines, dinks, etc. I googled it and came up with > Taco and Attwood products. I couldn't find any strength specifications, and > have run out of time, but thought it worth talking about. Pricey, but maybe > an elegant solution. > > *http://tinyurl.com/ye54now* > > This would be a very elegant solution if the strength is their. Will talk to the guys who sell Island Packets in Rock Hall as Im pretty sure Ive seen these as an option on some of the local boats on the hard. > HTH, > > Very much in deed. Much appreciated. Happy Holidays. /ch

On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:08 PM, David Wilkie Owen wrote: > > > Some Further notes on Anchor Rollers, etc: > > The Flopper-Stopper that several of us use locally is made by MagMa, > the BBQ Kettle company. They work wonderful and are only $240 +/-. > You can deploy it off of the end of your boom, or use a spinnaker > pole, as I do. I've seen them in use on boats up to 40'. Be careful to use a halyard and not the topping lift for the flopper stopper. There can be a lot of load on the pole. You don't want that load on the mast except as compression for the masthead. Mike Kennedy Formerly Conquest Cal 40 # 96 > > http://tinyurl.com/ygynenp > > My side-bow cleats were removed and I ground up the interiors, laid > tri-axial cloth & epoxy in and added a small (shaped with a hand > grinder) piece of oak for additional backing. The epoxy/cloth layup > would probably be sufficient with heavy washers and there wouldn't > be any future rot problems, though proper caulking and the > durability of oak are going to give you many years without problems. > > I was talking to fellow Cal List member, Dan Casey ("Air Time" Cal > 9.2R) at lunch today about these issues. He has noticed chafe on > his rode from his bow roller, and uses one of those heavy canvas > pieces of chafe-guard while at anchor. His 9.2 has an anchor > locker, which eliminates the storage hassle. Adding an anchor > locker was a project I thought to attempt, since I resent the weight > of the Bruce sticking out past the bow of the boat. The time, money > and effort required is maybe a bit extreme for me in my present > frame of mind, so I continue with this solution for now. > > Dan also commented on inset cleats that he's seen on some fairly > large yachts. His thinking was the central cleat would work and > could then be recessed out of the way of lines, dinks, etc. I > googled it and came up with Taco and Attwood products. I couldn't > find any strength specifications, and have run out of time, but > thought it worth talking about. Pricey, but maybe an elegant > solution. > > http://tinyurl.com/ye54now > > HTH, > > > Wilkie > > > > > On Apr 2, 2010, at 12:12 PM, chris123 wrote: > >> Thanks for your comments and ideas...comments in line. >> >> >> BayBreeze is a very well kept boat. I don't like using PO when you >> run into someone as friendly as L&L so hope Les and Lesly don't >> mind, but they took great care of the boat and set it up for >> weekend use and longer tours of the Chesapeake. I want to continue >> with this level of effort on the boat, however her usage will >> change to coastal cruiser so there are several things that need to >> be addressed. Changes will come as budgets and need arise. The >> anchoring system is close to the top so want to think this one >> through carefully. >> >> The most elegant way to do it is to build bow sprit with integrated >> roller, however this would too drastically change the design and I >> don't think the designer would approve. The second thought I had >> was to mount it dead ahead on the bow and integrate the roller >> fuller and fore stay into the arrangement. Had a few beers and took >> the dog for a walk and came back to reality. Far too much work. So >> took a look at Mariposa and I think this is the simplest arrangement. >> >> The other issue is the two bow cleats are showing signs of stress. >> The gelcoat is cracked down the fibreglass and common and >> symetrical on both cleats. Since the pressure lines are common, >> almost identical it is suggestive that there has been a lot of >> strain on these cleats. Will inspect them when I get back to see if >> I can both re-bed and backplate them for the trip home. Hence the >> questions on forces and vectors. >> >> BayBreeze came with two anchors (danforth's), one being a lunch >> hook, and an anchor sail so in that department she is well fitted >> complete with road and chain. Note to self, secure bitter end..:) >> >> >> >> With the same thoughts in mind, I installed a 10" stainless cleat >> (backed with a 3/4" oak block and a couple of layers of epoxied >> roving) in the center of the deck about a foot or so back from the >> hawse pipe fitting. This served the same purpose as a samson post >> with a lower profile. The anchor rode made a very straight shot >> from the roller and side plates in the front of the bow roller back >> to the large cleat. Despite the lower profile of the big central >> cleat, I discovered that it was a huge obstacle to foredeck work >> during racing. >> >> I don't race and probably wont even though everyone says its the >> best way to learn the boat. Perhaps will change my mind at some >> point....usually do....but anything can be removed, its all a >> matter of effort in and absence of forethought.....so thanks for >> the heads up. >> >> Lines snagged on it, foredeck crew tripped over it and it was >> generally in the way. So I removed it and was thinking about >> embedding giant T-nuts or such so I could put it off and on for >> cruising, but I never followed through. I went back to using the >> standard Cal 29 bow cleats, located on the gunnels at both sides of >> the foredeck. >> >> I like this idea and I don't think it will get in the way for the >> following reasons. I have a Famet furler which requires the sail to >> be cut high in the first place plus there is a 12" strap attached >> to the foot of the sail to the furler. So there is little chance >> that the sail will get caught up there. Secondly while underway, >> the dink will be stored from the mast forward to the pulpit >> covering the entire assembly. If this does not work out, for >> whatever reason, the dink will go between the mast and the hatch, >> actually my preferred location. DInk is small for the dog really so >> she can do her stuff on shore. So this leaves only the sheets, to >> which the dink will be a greater obstruction then the cleat. If >> sailing without a dink, the cleat could be covered with something >> hard like a rounded cap home made or other so it does not become a >> catch point. >> >> I was concerned about side loading the bow roller if I cleated off >> to the side but playing around with it, I became convinced that >> these loads were minimal because the direction of the pull was at a >> very shallow angle to the cleat(s) and there are many formulas that >> show how much of the load is handled by a fitting relative to the >> various angles that the line makes entering and exiting. I didn't >> bother with that, just made the empirical assumption that it was a >> small fraction of the over-all load, and the cleats were sized by >> the designer and builder to hold those loads. As for the bow >> roller; it is a U shaped channel bolted into one of the strongest >> molded forms of the boat (backed with a stainless piece of plate >> and held down with 1/2" stainless bolts thus that's not a strength >> issue. >> >> OK...that's good news and thanks for the confirmation. My concerns >> was based on (a) the stress cracks, (b) the multiple gales, max >> 60mph winds that we experienced this winter while tied to the dock. >> Had all lines doubled, and two springers on for most of the winter. >> She took some serious pounding she did, and shows it. So want to >> make life a little easier for this girl. >>> 2. If this is correct what would be the work around, if it not an >>> issue that's cool. One less issue to address. I suppose one could >>> angle the roller sufficiently to align the roller, rode and cleat, >>> but >>> this would put considerable pressure on the forefront of the roller >>> mechanism. Not sure what to do here or if its a real concern or not. >>> >>> >> >> So though it's obvious that I do not consider aligning these >> elements to be an issue because of the strength of the various >> components, their fasteners and the hull shape, the other concern >> that I had was CHAFE. >> >> OK good. >> >> I have tried pulling the rode back and cleating it directly to the >> bow cleats, and it works fine other than putting the boat at a bit >> of an angle to the wind. Our local Island Trips are usually for 3 >> days and 2 nights and that the size of the anchorages and usually >> number of boats on the weekend we are required to run a stern hook >> as well. The stern hook is cleated off to one side or the other as >> well. I've experimented with alternate or same side hooking for >> the two rodes with no definitive preference. Rolling is an issue >> with a bow-stern hook scenario and often the wind in the anchorage >> and the swell and wind waves can be at awkward angles to each other >> as they wrap around the point into the anchorage. We all pretty >> much swear by our "Flopper Stoppers" for this reason. >> >> Never heard of Flopper Stoppers....google produced the >> following...rather cool and interesting. >> >> http://www.myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=1628 >> >> I also have anchored with the rode passing through the bow roller >> and taken to the side cleat and watched it carefully for chafe. I >> think the various edges are soft enough that I haven't found any >> chafing in even the occasional high wind weekends. >> >> >> Thanks for the confirmation. Chafing can be an issue and and will >> take that into consideration. Lost my CS22 on the third day of >> ownership to cut line. Three consecutive days of high wind on the >> Ottawa River rubbed the line completely through and off she went >> off her mooring. Luckily the wind was on shore and she grounded >> herself on her swing keel, bobbing up and down with the keel firmly >> in the mud three feet from shore. Learned that lesson the hard way. >> Started the outboard, swung her around into the wind and goosed the >> engine and pulled the keel line at the same time. Not a >> scratch.....but called for several beers and an excuse to spend the >> day on her. >> >> BayBreeze will spend the summer in Picton Harbour on a mooring >> ball...:) Confirmation was received only two days ago. Coolest >> inland harbour with easy access to the best sailing grounds on the >> Lake Ontario (I would say Great Lakes, but Chris C would challenge >> me on that) >> >> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Prince+endward+county+yacht+club&sll=44.013929,-77.131083&sspn=0.004722,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=Prince+endward+county+yacht+club&hnear=&ll=44.014963,-77.13443&spn=0.004722,0.013797&t=h&z=16 >> >> The winter will be at Port Credit Harbour Marina, properly >> winterized this time, and at the other end of the lake in the >> shadow of downtown Toronto. >> >>> What I noticed is that there is considerable swing on the 29 when >>> the >>> danforth is used and tied off on either cleat as the rode is >>> extended >>> more or less from the side of boat given the location of the forward >>> cleats. I suppose someone could get ambitious and build in a Sampson >>> post but that seems a bit overkill and then you would have to deal >>> with friction and rubbing on the roller mechanism where it ties into >>> the bow. Les used a length of line to create a bridle to bring the >>> anchor rode in alignment with the bow and still have to test it. Was >>> wondering if there are other solutions. >>> >>> >> >> The stern hook eliminates any concerns about swinging, but when I >> lived in the PNW I certainly experienced it and I would often run a >> line from the stern cleat a few yards up the rode with a rolling >> hitch and bring it back in to swing the boat more sideways to the >> wind. I don't think I ever found myself in a situation where it >> was really persistent enough to tell if it was going to be >> effective in any and all conditions, though. I intended to build a >> wind-sail to weather cock her, but once again didn't follow through >> as we so rarely go on a single hook at our So Cal Islands. >> >> Good luck figuring this out, and please update us with your results. >> >> Thanks Wilkie for your comments. You gave me 90 percent of what I >> was looking for. The last 10 percent...is experience (errr trial >> and error)..:) >> >> Much appreciated and will update as things progress. Currently >> studying charts, tides and what not so see if we can run the >> Delaware in one day from the Canal to the Cape May. If the >> conditions are right, it can be done, but its a long day or night >> and the winds and tides have to align .BayBreeze can do hull speed >> on the new jib alone with the right wind. Hmmm anyone got a wijji >> board their not using...:) >> >> Best and many thanks >> >> /ch >> >> > > >