Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem -- Update

Well, I went to the boat today and brought my good voltmeter. I found a couple of interesting things. First, the ground for the starter and the ignition are the same -- the block. The coil is grounded through the points which connect to the block through the distributor so that isn't the issue. The battery negative cable goes to the block and the ground for everything else comes off that same bolt back to the grounding bar. I was suspicious of this connection as it is right below the water pump and that pump was leaking until recently. That bolt is very rusty. However, I took a resistance measurement from the battery to the ground bar and it read 0.20 ohms no matter what I did to that bolt. I hit it with a hammer and knocked some rust off it but not a hundredth of an ohm change in the resistance. 0.20 ohms seems like a reasonable number for the wire involved. I ran the engine and it was smooth as can be, no problem and the knot meter read 0 the entire time. I would take that bolt off and clean it but I suspect that will be as hard a job as changing my running light bulb was (that took 5 days). And as it is the motor mount, I don't want to mess it up. I am stuck -- out of ideas. Allen On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > Yes! That must be it. That thought occurred to me yesterday in thinking > it through and you have just confirmed my thinking. There would be a large > cable to the engine for the starter and I know there is wire up to a ground > block that would then be the ground for everything else. I need to remember > this is a boat and not a car and that everything doesn't just connect to the > metal chassis to get ground! Therefore, it must be a wire from the battery > to a point common to the coil and the knot meter. That should not be that > hard to find. I will try and find it later this week and will report back. > > Thanks!!! > > Allen > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 3:53 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > >> >> >> The starting battery circuit must have been well grounded however the >> Ignition/ insturment---maybe not-- possibly a separate faulty ground or >> loose connection somewhere in the system. I agree, if it ain't broke... >> Still if it happens again and you have time and space to do some hunting you >> will find it. >> My Best, Mike >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> >> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Tue, April 20, 2010 7:47:56 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >> >> Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I >> forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to >> both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are >> about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I >> checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. >> >> I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a >> charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging >> battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine >> runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that >> might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital >> voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital >> voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone >> away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the >> analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was >> running perfectly by then. >> >> What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the >> engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for >> the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a >> ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the >> starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I >> am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. >> >> I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it >> approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like >> it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. >> http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine >> . >> >> Allen >> >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your >>> starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this >>> happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from >>> your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full >>> output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to >>> the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, >>> My Best, Mike >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> >>> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>> *Sent:* Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM >>> *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>> >>> >>> Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot >>> leave out any possibilities. >>> >>> What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? >>> >>> Cheers >>> Charlie >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >>> Behalf Of *Allen Edwards >>> *Sent:* Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM >>> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I >>> had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As >>> I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, >>> changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The >>> second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which >>> obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 >>> minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the >>> engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. >>> Anyone experience anything like this? >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > >

Allen, There might be corrosion inside the connectors. Or, even a loose connector. Give 'em a good jiggle and if dusty stuff flakes from them, you should probably replace them. If that bolt is too much of a pain in the butt, consider cutting the wires off and routing them somewhere on the block that isn't under the water pump? My .02. Mike M. On 4/22/2010 9:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > Well, I went to the boat today and brought my good voltmeter. I found > a couple of interesting things. First, the ground for the starter and > the ignition are the same -- the block. The coil is grounded through > the points which connect to the block through the distributor so that > isn't the issue. The battery negative cable goes to the block and the > ground for everything else comes off that same bolt back to the > grounding bar. I was suspicious of this connection as it is right > below the water pump and that pump was leaking until recently. That > bolt is very rusty. However, I took a resistance measurement from the > battery to the ground bar and it read 0.20 ohms no matter what I did > to that bolt. I hit it with a hammer and knocked some rust off it but > not a hundredth of an ohm change in the resistance. 0.20 ohms seems > like a reasonable number for the wire involved. I ran the engine and > it was smooth as can be, no problem and the knot meter read 0 the > entire time. I would take that bolt off and clean it but I suspect > that will be as hard a job as changing my running light bulb was (that > took 5 days). And as it is the motor mount, I don't want to mess it up. > > > I am stuck -- out of ideas. > > Allen

The batt neg cable should attach to one of the starter mounting capscrews. This eliminates the poor electrical connection that is the starter / block interface. VERY IMPORTANT with engines in marine applications. Gas engines should also have an additional wire from this same capscrew to the block, so the plugs, etc are actually grounded. Joe DeMers From: mike Sent: Apr 22, 2010 9:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem -- Update Allen, There might be corrosion inside the connectors. Or, even a loose connector. Give 'em a good jiggle and if dusty stuff flakes from them, you should probably replace them. If that bolt is too much of a pain in the butt, consider cutting the wires off and routing them somewhere on the block that isn't under the water pump? My .02. Mike M. On 4/22/2010 9:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: Well, I went to the boat today and brought my good voltmeter. I found a couple of interesting things. First, the ground for the starter and the ignition are the same -- the block. The coil is grounded through the points which connect to the block through the distributor so that isn't the issue. The battery negative cable goes to the block and the ground for everything else comes off that same bolt back to the grounding bar. I was suspicious of this connection as it is right below the water pump and that pump was leaking until recently. That bolt is very rusty. However, I took a resistance measurement from the battery to the ground bar and it read 0.20 ohms no matter what I did to that bolt. I hit it with a hammer and knocked some rust off it but not a hundredth of an ohm change in the resistance. 0.20 ohms seems like a reasonable number for the wire involved. I ran the engine and it was smooth as can be, no problem and the knot meter read 0 the entire time. I would take that bolt off and clean it but I suspect that will be as hard a job as changing my running light bulb was (that took 5 days). And as it is the motor mount, I don't want to mess it up. I am stuck -- out of ideas. Allen

That is a good suggestion. However, I am always hesitant to try and remove any bolt that has been in place for 50 years. They get to like where they are and sometimes don't want to come out. Perhaps the starter idea that Joe suggested would work. That said, this still doesn't explain my symptoms -- no problem with the starter but problem with the engine and knot meter. I sure wish I could figure what was wrong before I go looking for a bolt to remove on the engine. When I took off the head, 5 of the head bolts broke off. Allen On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 6:14 PM, mike <mi… [at] wahini.org> wrote: > > > Allen, > There might be corrosion inside the connectors. Or, even a loose connector. > Give 'em a good jiggle and if dusty stuff flakes from them, you should > probably replace them. If that bolt is too much of a pain in the butt, > consider cutting the wires off and routing them somewhere on the block that > isn't under the water pump? My .02. > Mike M. > > > On 4/22/2010 9:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > Well, I went to the boat today and brought my good voltmeter. I found a > couple of interesting things. First, the ground for the starter and the > ignition are the same -- the block. The coil is grounded through the points > which connect to the block through the distributor so that isn't the issue. > The battery negative cable goes to the block and the ground for everything > else comes off that same bolt back to the grounding bar. I was suspicious > of this connection as it is right below the water pump and that pump was > leaking until recently. That bolt is very rusty. However, I took a > resistance measurement from the battery to the ground bar and it read 0.20 > ohms no matter what I did to that bolt. I hit it with a hammer and knocked > some rust off it but not a hundredth of an ohm change in the resistance. > 0.20 ohms seems like a reasonable number for the wire involved. I ran the > engine and it was smooth as can be, no problem and the knot meter read 0 the > entire time. I would take that bolt off and clean it but I suspect that > will be as hard a job as changing my running light bulb was (that took 5 > days). And as it is the motor mount, I don't want to mess it up. > > I am stuck -- out of ideas. > > Allen > > >

How many CAL owners does it take to change a running light bulb? Couldn't resist it. Allen, have you checked to see if your knotmeter changes readings with voltage variations? Try a portable battery charger (runs high when not loaded) or a variable DC supply if you have one. Maybe your alternator line got disconnected from the battery(ies) and was running your electrics directly?. That would have run the system voltage up. Also, you would have then been running your engine from the alternator whose voltage varies a fair amount with varying load. Obviously a head scratching discussion. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:09 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem -- Update Well, I went to the boat today and brought my good voltmeter. I found a couple of interesting things. First, the ground for the starter and the ignition are the same -- the block. The coil is grounded through the points which connect to the block through the distributor so that isn't the issue. The battery negative cable goes to the block and the ground for everything else comes off that same bolt back to the grounding bar. I was suspicious of this connection as it is right below the water pump and that pump was leaking until recently. That bolt is very rusty. However, I took a resistance measurement from the battery to the ground bar and it read 0.20 ohms no matter what I did to that bolt. I hit it with a hammer and knocked some rust off it but not a hundredth of an ohm change in the resistance. 0.20 ohms seems like a reasonable number for the wire involved. I ran the engine and it was smooth as can be, no problem and the knot meter read 0 the entire time. I would take that bolt off and clean it but I suspect that will be as hard a job as changing my running light bulb was (that took 5 days). And as it is the motor mount, I don't want to mess it up. I am stuck -- out of ideas. Allen On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: Yes! That must be it. That thought occurred to me yesterday in thinking it through and you have just confirmed my thinking. There would be a large cable to the engine for the starter and I know there is wire up to a ground block that would then be the ground for everything else. I need to remember this is a boat and not a car and that everything doesn't just connect to the metal chassis to get ground! Therefore, it must be a wire from the battery to a point common to the coil and the knot meter. That should not be that hard to find. I will try and find it later this week and will report back. Thanks!!! Allen On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 3:53 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: The starting battery circuit must have been well grounded however the Ignition/ insturment---maybe not-- possibly a separate faulty ground or loose connection somewhere in the system. I agree, if it ain't broke... Still if it happens again and you have time and space to do some hunting you will find it. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 7:47:56 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, My Best, Mike From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

Good suggestion. I will check that out tomorrow. OK, the light bulb. Starboard running light out. Take bulb out, bulb is fine, socket is bad. Take fixture out. Wood under fixture is rotten. Get Rot the wood, three coats of paint, change socket in fixture, replace everything, 5 days. It actually took longer as the get rot took several days to dry. Allen On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com > wrote: > > > How many CAL owners does it take to change a running light bulb? Couldn't > resist it. > > Allen, have you checked to see if your knotmeter changes readings with > voltage variations? Try a portable battery charger (runs high when not > loaded) or a variable DC supply if you have one. Maybe your alternator line > got disconnected from the battery(ies) and was running your electrics > directly?. That would have run the system voltage up. Also, you would have > then been running your engine from the alternator whose voltage varies a > fair amount with varying load. Obviously a head scratching discussion. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:09 PM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem -- Update > > Well, I went to the boat today and brought my good voltmeter. I found a > couple of interesting things. First, the ground for the starter and the > ignition are the same -- the block. The coil is grounded through the points > which connect to the block through the distributor so that isn't the issue. > The battery negative cable goes to the block and the ground for everything > else comes off that same bolt back to the grounding bar. I was suspicious > of this connection as it is right below the water pump and that pump was > leaking until recently. That bolt is very rusty. However, I took a > resistance measurement from the battery to the ground bar and it read 0.20 > ohms no matter what I did to that bolt. I hit it with a hammer and knocked > some rust off it but not a hundredth of an ohm change in the resistance. > 0.20 ohms seems like a reasonable number for the wire involved. I ran the > engine and it was smooth as can be, no problem and the knot meter read 0 the > entire time. I would take that bolt off and clean it but I suspect that > will be as hard a job as changing my running light bulb was (that took 5 > days). And as it is the motor mount, I don't want to mess it up. > > I am stuck -- out of ideas. > > Allen > > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> Yes! That must be it. That thought occurred to me yesterday in thinking >> it through and you have just confirmed my thinking. There would be a large >> cable to the engine for the starter and I know there is wire up to a ground >> block that would then be the ground for everything else. I need to remember >> this is a boat and not a car and that everything doesn't just connect to the >> metal chassis to get ground! Therefore, it must be a wire from the battery >> to a point common to the coil and the knot meter. That should not be that >> hard to find. I will try and find it later this week and will report back. >> >> Thanks!!! >> >> Allen >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 3:53 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> The starting battery circuit must have been well grounded however the >>> Ignition/ insturment---maybe not-- possibly a separate faulty ground or >>> loose connection somewhere in the system. I agree, if it ain't broke... >>> Still if it happens again and you have time and space to do some hunting you >>> will find it. >>> My Best, Mike >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> >>> >>> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>> *Sent:* Tue, April 20, 2010 7:47:56 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>> >>> >>> Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I >>> forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to >>> both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are >>> about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I >>> checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. >>> >>> I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a >>> charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging >>> battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine >>> runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that >>> might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital >>> voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital >>> voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone >>> away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the >>> analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was >>> running perfectly by then. >>> >>> What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the >>> engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for >>> the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a >>> ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the >>> starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I >>> am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. >>> >>> I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it >>> approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like >>> it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. >>> http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine >>> . >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your >>>> starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this >>>> happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from >>>> your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full >>>> output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to >>>> the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, >>>> My Best, Mike >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> >>>> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>> *Sent:* Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM >>>> *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot >>>> leave out any possibilities. >>>> >>>> What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Allen Edwards >>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM >>>> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I >>>> had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As >>>> I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, >>>> changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The >>>> second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which >>>> obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 >>>> minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the >>>> engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. >>>> Anyone experience anything like this? >>>> >>>> Allen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >