Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~!

Unless you race one design with rules on sail material etc there will always be an issue with ratings. That said, Belle Aurore got line honors in their class and no one corrected over them so they sailed a good race. As far as the carbon mast and a rating adjustment they didn't get take a hit for it in PHRF, much to my chagrin as I rate the same as they do at 120 with my Cal 39 that is easily 5,000 lbs heavier. Maybe I have a faster hull shape as my boat is newer, I don't know. Basically with ratings the old saying "every dog has its day" is about as accurate as it gets. In our club we race against a Tarten 10 rated at 126 which is basically a 33' dinghy. In light air we can't touch him, in heavy air and waves we do okay. The best advice I can give is don't take handicap racing too seriously or you'll drive yourself nuts and blow a wad of $$$. If you want to get serious about racing, go one design. Good luck and have fun with it. You'll learn more about sailing in one year of racing than in 10 years of cruising . .. you just wont learn how to anchor . .. unless you get caught in a foul current in light air (I've anchored a couple of time racing and it sucks) Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 In a message dated 6/24/2010 11:23:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_… [at] yahoo.com writes: I am new to the racing thing and haven't raced my boat yet so sorry if this observation appears naive. The CAL 40s swept because of their rating, yes?; and even with the rating were 3, 7, and 8 overall in the division. So was the showing all that great or were they just put in a class they were born to win? In real time i think they were 1, 4, and 5 in their class. And about the carbon fiber mast and kevlar sales. That equipement upgrade should be taken into account in the rating yes? So what advantage would the equipement upgrade provide unless it were to cheat out the rating somehow, that is buy an advantage over the rating system becuase, for example, the benefits of carbon mast don't get reflected in the boats rating? thanks in advance for helping me get a better understanding for this. --- In _C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) , <timmothy.lessley@...> wrote: > > 2010 Newport Bermuda Race® Bitmap > > > Provisional Class and Division Results > Scored Under ORR > blank > St. David's Lighthouse Division > Class 1 > Cls Div Finish Elapsed Corrected > Pos Pos Sail No Yacht Name Design/Model Captain/Skipper Affiliation Status Time(ADT) Time Time > 1 3 USA 5191 BELLE AURORE Cal 40 R Douglas Jurrius Tred Avon YC 6/22/2010 20:03 101:03:41 59:10:52 > 2 7 USA 1818 SINN FEIN Cal 40 Peter S. Rebovich, Sr. Raritan YC/STC 6/22/2010 23:01 104:01:19 60:32:01 > 3 8 CAL 12 GONE WITH THE WIND Cal 40 William M. LeRoy StFYC/CCA 6/22/2010 22:58 103:58:35 60:43:53 >

PHRF / IRC / ORR are all rating rules which attempt to equalize boats' performance and allow them a fair comparison on the race course. Given that, in order to enter the race, all boats had to provide a rating certificate signed off by a measurer. I would accept as fact that any of the boats was rated correctly and had any alterations calculated in the handicap. The scratch sheet would show ratings for each boat. I can tell you that kevlar sails are considered standard equipment. A carbon mast would cause a rating adjustment for sure. Kevin - if you saw my previous post they did not take a PHRF hit for the carbon mast. I know as I race against him in Oxford. Hopefully he took a hit with his ORR rating but I don't know. I heard 2nd or 3rd hand that in a previous Bermuda race, Sinn Fein opted to be rated w/o a spinnaker as they didn't feel the wind angles required one. Dunno if that is true or not. But every boat has to actually sail the race. I can assure you that the Bermuda Race is not an easy race to complete and even harder to win or have a podium finish. The course crosses the Gulf Stream which adds a factor of complication to the race that many don't understand. It's 635 miles so overnight sailing and crew management is a factor. Weather is a huge factor. Getting caught in an eddy swirling in the wrong direction is a killer. The cal 40's swept because they were well prepared, well sailed, had the right weather (wind speed / angle) and had probably a good bit of luck. From looking at the tracks I would think Sinn Fein might have gotten their 5th 1st in division if they had not sailed so far west of the fleet. Maybe the Cal's had the best helmsmen (helmspeople?)? Looking at Belle Aurore's track they appeared to be trying to stay in a consistent breeze more than anything as they were all over the place, whereas Sinn Fein looked to be following a pre-determined route come Hell or high water. Sinn Fein has won their class something like 4 times and last time (2008) won the division and entire overall. You don't do that simply because you have a gift rating or sail in the wrong class. Not in this race. That's for sure. Too many variables to allow a rating to ruin a race although a favorable rating never hurts. Paul

It is my understanding the that PHRF rating “assume” your boat is already optimized to be competitive. Max # 1 sails of 155%, folding or feathering props, spinnaker poles of the exact max length, etc. since this number is considered a local rating, your boat may be given points for non-optimum setup. I get 3 points for my three bladed fixed prop, but nothing for my 135 roller furling headsail. On the Chesapeake the form asks for your largest headsail. I assume if your largest is a 135 you'd get a credit but I'm not sure. All props are rated differently and allowances given. All boats are rated with a spinnaker so you can register in the non-spin fleet if you are short of crew or whatever. We now have a Corinthian fleet as well that is an attempt to let guys be competitive that don't want to keep throwing the big bucks out on sails etc. Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well Paul

Well said. On Jun 24, 2010, at 10:51, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > Unless you race one design with rules on sail material etc there will always be an issue with ratings. That said, Belle Aurore got line honors in their class and no one corrected over them so they sailed a good race. As far as the carbon mast and a rating adjustment they didn't get take a hit for it in PHRF, much to my chagrin as I rate the same as they do at 120 with my Cal 39 that is easily 5,000 lbs heavier. Maybe I have a faster hull shape as my boat is newer, I don't know. > > Basically with ratings the old saying "every dog has its day" is about as accurate as it gets. In our club we race against a Tarten 10 rated at 126 which is basically a 33' dinghy. In light air we can't touch him, in heavy air and waves we do okay. > > The best advice I can give is don't take handicap racing too seriously or you'll drive yourself nuts and blow a wad of $$$. If you want to get serious about racing, go one design. > > Good luck and have fun with it. You'll learn more about sailing in one year of racing than in 10 years of cruising . .. you just wont learn how to anchor . .. unless you get caught in a foul current in light air (I've anchored a couple of time racing and it sucks) > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > '80 Cal 39 > > > > In a message dated 6/24/2010 11:23:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_… [at] yahoo.com writes: > > I am new to the racing thing and haven't raced my boat yet so sorry if this observation appears naive. > > The CAL 40s swept because of their rating, yes?; and even with the rating were 3, 7, and 8 overall in the division. So was the showing all that great or were they just put in a class they were born to win? In real time i think they were 1, 4, and 5 in their class. > > And about the carbon fiber mast and kevlar sales. That equipement upgrade should be taken into account in the rating yes? So what advantage would the equipement upgrade provide unless it were to cheat out the rating somehow, that is buy an advantage over the rating system becuase, for example, the benefits of carbon mast don't get reflected in the boats rating? > > thanks in advance for helping me get a better understanding for this. > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, <timmothy.lessley@...> wrote: > > > > 2010 Newport Bermuda Race® Bitmap > > > > > > Provisional Class and Division Results > > Scored Under ORR > > blank > > St. David's Lighthouse Division > > Class 1 > > Cls Div Finish Elapsed Corrected > > Pos Pos Sail No Yacht Name Design/Model Captain/Skipper Affiliation Status Time(ADT) Time Time > > 1 3 USA 5191 BELLE AURORE Cal 40 R Douglas Jurrius Tred Avon YC 6/22/2010 20:03 101:03:41 59:10:52 > > 2 7 USA 1818 SINN FEIN Cal 40 Peter S. Rebovich, Sr. Raritan YC/STC 6/22/2010 23:01 104:01:19 60:32:01 > > 3 8 CAL 12 GONE WITH THE WIND Cal 40 William M. LeRoy StFYC/CCA 6/22/2010 22:58 103:58:35 60:43:53 > > > > >

In SF, as I recall, no credit is given for non spinnakers and credit is only given if your largest headsail is very small, 100+- don't remember exact number. A 135 would not get credit around here if my memory is better than it normally is :^) Everywhere is different but I think everyone assumes your boat and sails are in top condition and the boat is sailed well. You can't get a better handicap by being a poor sailor. Allen On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:10 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding the that PHRF rating “assume” your boat is already > optimized to be competitive. Max # 1 sails of 155%, folding or feathering > props, spinnaker poles of the exact max length, etc. since this number is > considered a local rating, your boat may be given points for non-optimum > setup. I get 3 points for my three bladed fixed prop, but nothing for my > 135 roller furling headsail. > > *On the Chesapeake the form asks for your largest headsail. I assume if > your largest is a 135 you'd get a credit but I'm not sure. All props are > rated differently and allowances given. All boats are rated with a > spinnaker so you can register in the non-spin fleet if you are short of crew > or whatever. We now have a Corinthian fleet as well that is an attempt to > let guys be competitive that don't want to keep throwing the big bucks out > on sails etc. Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines > and there are other equipment requirements as well* > ** > *Paul* > >

I have known cases where a boat type rating can be destroyed by having a top sailor on that type of boat. At least notionally, the term is "performance handicap". If a boat type is doing too well (or even one boat of that type), the rating can be summarily changed. It has happened around here. I stay away from PHRF sailing, but then I have that option. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:12 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! In SF, as I recall, no credit is given for non spinnakers and credit is only given if your largest headsail is very small, 100+- don't remember exact number. A 135 would not get credit around here if my memory is better than it normally is :^) Everywhere is different but I think everyone assumes your boat and sails are in top condition and the boat is sailed well. You can't get a better handicap by being a poor sailor. Allen On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:10 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com>> wrote: It is my understanding the that PHRF rating "assume" your boat is already optimized to be competitive. Max # 1 sails of 155%, folding or feathering props, spinnaker poles of the exact max length, etc. since this number is considered a local rating, your boat may be given points for non-optimum setup. I get 3 points for my three bladed fixed prop, but nothing for my 135 roller furling headsail. On the Chesapeake the form asks for your largest headsail. I assume if your largest is a 135 you'd get a credit but I'm not sure. All props are rated differently and allowances given. All boats are rated with a spinnaker so you can register in the non-spin fleet if you are short of crew or whatever. We now have a Corinthian fleet as well that is an attempt to let guys be competitive that don't want to keep throwing the big bucks out on sails etc. Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well Paul

“Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. Ymmv john

John, You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! Jim From: "john raxter" <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. Ymmv john

Could that be why I sail with a 150 handicap when the same boat sails with 218 up north? The guy who got the 150, as the result of a protest, is very good. He never raced with the handicap that low however just leaving it as his legacy. On the other hand, I am doing just fine so I am not complaining. Allen On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com > wrote: > > > I have known cases where a boat type rating can be destroyed by having a > top sailor on that type of boat. At least notionally, the term is > "performance handicap". If a boat type is doing too well (or even one boat > of that type), the rating can be summarily changed. It has happened around > here. I stay away from PHRF sailing, but then I have that option. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:12 PM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > In SF, as I recall, no credit is given for non spinnakers and credit is > only given if your largest headsail is very small, 100+- don't remember > exact number. A 135 would not get credit around here if my memory is better > than it normally is :^) > > Everywhere is different but I think everyone assumes your boat and sails > are in top condition and the boat is sailed well. You can't get a better > handicap by being a poor sailor. > > Allen > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:10 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> It is my understanding the that PHRF rating “assume” your boat is already >> optimized to be competitive. Max # 1 sails of 155%, folding or feathering >> props, spinnaker poles of the exact max length, etc. since this number is >> considered a local rating, your boat may be given points for non-optimum >> setup. I get 3 points for my three bladed fixed prop, but nothing for my >> 135 roller furling headsail. >> >> *On the Chesapeake the form asks for your largest headsail. I assume if >> your largest is a 135 you'd get a credit but I'm not sure. All props are >> rated differently and allowances given. All boats are rated with a >> spinnaker so you can register in the non-spin fleet if you are short of crew >> or whatever. We now have a Corinthian fleet as well that is an attempt to >> let guys be competitive that don't want to keep throwing the big bucks out >> on sails etc. Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines >> and there are other equipment requirements as well* >> ** >> *Paul* >> > > >

Paul, I'm really surprised at the non-hit for a carbon mast in phrf. I got hit when I installed the updated C40 rudder -3 and it really made no difference I could tell except when motoring. Taking ~100lbs out of the rig would make a big difference I think. But every PHRF area is different so you never know. Your comment not to take it too seriously is spot-on. In ORR Belle Aurora did sail with the lowest handicap of the C40's. Sinn Fein had the highest of the C40's. Why, I wouldn't know, but there must have been differences. The listing is here: http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scratch%20Sheet2010.pdf I think the C39 owes the C40 because you can point higher. Other angles are perceived to be about the same. But a C40 on a reach/run is not rate-able in my opinion. I would not be surprised at all by your assumptions on Sinn Fein. They do tend to have a method in mind when they set out. If you can find any info on their strategy from past races you'd see that directly. And they load the boat with good drivers. --Kevin --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, pwestla@... wrote: > > > > > PHRF / IRC / ORR are all rating rules which attempt to equalize boats' > performance and allow them a fair comparison on the race course. Given that, in > order to enter the race, all boats had to provide a rating certificate > signed off by a measurer. I would accept as fact that any of the boats was > rated correctly and had any alterations calculated in the handicap. The > scratch sheet would show ratings for each boat. I can tell you that kevlar sails > are considered standard equipment. A carbon mast would cause a rating > adjustment for sure. > > > Kevin - if you saw my previous post they did not take a PHRF hit for the > carbon mast. I know as I race against him in Oxford. Hopefully he took a > hit with his ORR rating but I don't know. > > I heard 2nd or 3rd hand that in a previous Bermuda race, Sinn Fein opted > to be rated w/o a spinnaker as they didn't feel the wind angles required > one. Dunno if that is true or not. > > > > But every boat has to actually sail the race. I can assure you that the > Bermuda Race is not an easy race to complete and even harder to win or have a > podium finish. The course crosses the Gulf Stream which adds a factor of > complication to the race that many don't understand. It's 635 miles so > overnight sailing and crew management is a factor. Weather is a huge factor. > > Getting caught in an eddy swirling in the wrong direction is a killer. > > The cal 40's swept because they were well prepared, well sailed, had the > right weather (wind speed / angle) and had probably a good bit of luck. From > looking at the tracks I would think Sinn Fein might have gotten their 5th > 1st in division if they had not sailed so far west of the fleet. Maybe the > Cal's had the best helmsmen (helmspeople?)? > > Looking at Belle Aurore's track they appeared to be trying to stay in a > consistent breeze more than anything as they were all over the place, whereas > Sinn Fein looked to be following a pre-determined route come Hell or high > water. > > > Sinn Fein has won their class something like 4 times and last time (2008) > won the division and entire overall. You don't do that simply because you > have a gift rating or sail in the wrong class. Not in this race. > > That's for sure. Too many variables to allow a rating to ruin a race > although a favorable rating never hurts. > > Paul >

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. So the summary I got from all the comments are these: 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. thanks! --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, mayman252000@... wrote: > > John, > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > Jim > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@...> > Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” > > > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > Ymmv > > john >

I have the PNW raters spreadsheet if someone wanted a copy.. It has the stock ratings and dimensions of about 1,000 boats. It was current as of last year. [cid:im… [at] 01CB1448.BEE83180] Instructions: PLEASE PRINT. Provide 3 copies to Local Handicapper. Contact PHRF-NW office if handicapper is unknown. Make check payable to PHRF-NW. Do not mail cash. Sail Area Adjustment Tables Propulsion Adjustment Application for Rating Headsail Spinnaker Inboard Sail Number Yacht Name Owner Name SAFJ CODE ADJ SAFS CODE ADJ PROPULSION TYPE CODE ADJ 6853 California Girl Timm and Victoria Lessley 0.000 S 9 0.000 S 9 3-Blade Exposed 2 12 Address City State/Prov Zip/Postal Code 0.820 1 9 0.715 1 9 3-Blade in Aperture 3 6 535 NE Bridgeton Rd Slip #1 Portland OR 97211 0.860 2 9 0.775 2 9 2-Blade Exposed 4 6 Yacht Club Phone Email 0.900 3 6 0.835 3 6 Folding/2-Blade in Aperture 5 0 PYC 503-240-4744 0.940 4 3 0.895 4 3 Retractable w/Cover 6 -6 Manufacturer: Jensen Model: Cal 40 Designer: Lapworth Year: 63 0.970 5 0 0.955 5 0 Insufficent HP 7 -6 LOA [ft] 39.33 Beam [ft] 11.00 Displ [*1000 lb] 15.5 Blst [*1000 lb] 6.0 1.010 6 -3 1.045 6 -3 Outboard LWL [ft] 30.33 Draft [ft] 5.58 Hull Material FG 1.050 7 -6 1.075 7 -6 Motor Aboard but Stored E -6 Propulsion: use "X" and describe any modifications from Standard Standard Propulsion = IBE 1.090 8 -9 1.105 8 -9 No Motor Aboard F -9 x Inboard Propeller: x Feathering Folding Fixed # of Blades 2 1.130 9 -12 1.135 9 -12 Immersed on Both Tacks K 6 In Aperture On Strut Retracting Sail Drive 1.170 L -15 1.165 U -15 Outboard Mounted M 0 Mainsail 1.195 V -18 Insufficent HP P -3 Outboard Mounting: Retracted Immersed on BOTH tacks Removed/Stored Engine HP SAFM CODE ADJ 1.225 W -21 Non-Flying-Sail (NFS) Miscellaneous Schedule On Transom In well NO ENGINE ABOARD 0.000 S 6 1.255 X -24 SAFJ CODE ADJ DESC CODE ADJ Appendages: Check and describe any modifications from Standard 0.905 1 6 1.285 Y -27 0.000 C 21 Blooper A -3 Keel: x Standard for Yacht Model Std = FNM Describe: 0.925 2 6 1.315 Z -30 0.940 B 18 WPL>1 B -3 Modified From Standard 0.945 3 6 1.345 D -33 1.050 A 15 WPL>1.1 C -6 Rudder: x Standard for Yacht Model Std = SSP Describe: 0.965 4 3 1.375 E -36 WPL>1.2 D -9 Modified From Standard 0.985 5 0 1.405 F -39 Items NOT listed here E -3 Alterations: Describe any changes from the Standard Class Boat (use separate sheet if needed) 1.005 6 -3 1.435 G -42 Gear/Interior Removed G -3 Replaced quadrilateral rudder with elipsodial of same area. Mastheight increased, boom shortened. 1.025 7 -6 1.465 H -45 Significant Hull Alterations H -3 Significant Keel Alterations Measured Dimensions for LARGEST mainsail, headsail & spinnaker (use decimal feet to two decimal places)* 1.045 8 -9 1.495 I -48 Significant Keel Alterations K -3 *See Measurement Instructions. Include dimensions for multiple masts in space provided. 1.065 9 -12 1.525 J -51 Use of Lifting Keels/Boards L -3 Main: MP 44.00 Headsail: LLJ 49.75 Spinnaker: SLE 48.75 Rig: I 48.42 1.085 R -15 1.555 K -54 Additional Hiking Aids N -3 ME 15.00 LP 23.64 SLU 48.75 ISP 48.42 1.105 S -18 1.585 L -57 Altered Rig/Stays/Etc R -3 MGM 9.70 SGF 26.35 J 15.25 1.125 T -21 1.615 M -60 ISP > I S 0 MGU 5.70 WPL SGM 27.45 JC 15.25 1.145 U -24 1.645 N -63 Use of Multiple Jibs W 0 HB 0.25 No Spinnaker, want NFS rating SPL/BPL 15.20 P 44.00 1.165 V -27 1.675 O -66 SL 0 to 3 feet > ASL X -3 H 48.72 E 15.00 1.185 W -30 1.705 P -69 SL 3 to 6 feet > ASL Y -9 SL 6+ feet > ASL Z -9 PHRF relies on the honesty and goodwill of the owners/members to supply correct information. If you make a change to your boat or sails you are obligated to report that change to your handicapper. By signing below, the owner verifies the dimensions provid Area Factor Code Adj In acquiring and maintaining a membership in PHRF-NW the undersigned warrants that the information supplied is accurate and that he/she understands that PHRF-NW will express no opinion as to the safety of the vessel, but will provide an estimated speed on Signature Date Headsail: Standard = 0.775 * I * J = 540.8 Actual = 0.5 * LLJ * LP = 588 1.05 6 -3 New Member, Dues Attached Former S/N Former Name OLD Actual Rated Area = 588 1.049 6 -3 Changing Boats, Former Boat For Handicapper Use (applicant not to write below this point) Spinnaker: Standard = 1.494 * ISP * JC = 1043 STD Class CAL40-1 Base Rating 129 STD I 46.00 STD J 15.17 Actual = 0.83 *((SLU + SLE)/2)*(SGF + 4 * SGM)/5 = 1102 Area Factor Code Adjustment STD ISP 46.00 STD JC 15.17 Spinnaker Adjustments: Headsail 1.0495219 6 -3 STD P 40.00 STD E 17.50 Altered/Excessive Hoist: If H > ISP and H > SLU, Then SLU = 48.75 Spinnaker 1.040707 5 0 NOTES: Oversized Pole: If SPL > JC and 1.8*SPL > SGM, Then SGM = 1.8*SPL = 27.45 Mainsail 0.9810461 4 3 Actual Rated Area After Applying Penalties for > H and/or > SPL = 1102 1.04 5 0 Propulsion Engine HP? 5 0 OLD Standard Rated Area = 1.566 * I * J = 1093 Misc 0 OLD Actual Rated Area = 1164 1.047 6 -3 Local Ratings Mainsail: Standard = 0.59 * P * E = 413 Code As-Sailed NFS Local Boat Type Yacht Club STD Found: YES Actual Sail Area = (3 * ME + 4 * (MGM + MGU) + HB) * MP/12 = 391.8 6 5 4 5 129 147 129 STD Code: CAL40-1 NEW Actual Rated Area = 391.8 0.98 4 3 Handicapper: Date: NEW STD: NO OLD Actual Rated Area = 391.8 0.975 4 3 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r_michael_taylor Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:17 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. So the summary I got from all the comments are these: 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. thanks! --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>, mayman252000@... wrote: > > John, > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > Jim > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@...> > Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>> > Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” > > > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > Ymmv > > john >

Charlie, Hope all's well with you! I was in Annapolis in late Sept for the Lloyd Phoenix regatta which we finally won after 5 tries. But I didn't have time to check in with you - it was pretty hectic. I did look for Chicken Little though. For the longest time I thought PHRF ratings were and should be about the boat. But (let the flames begin) I have come around to the notion that PHRF should rate the Boat and Crew. I had a long discussion with a guy from CA (birthplace of phrf) one time and he changed my mind. Most areas have one or two really hot crews and a few really dismal ones. We have seen a decline in local races because people figure they don't stand a chance. Maybe they really don't have the skills to win but I know decent sailors that won't race because they can't beat the guys that always win. And I know if they switched boats, they still wouldn't win. So I came around to agreeing with 'equalizing the fleet' which is how phrf got started as far as I know. It's really not a measurement rule like IOR/IMS/ORR/IRC. But they start from a base boat config and assume a lot which may not be the case at all. Happy Summer! --Kevin --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > I have known cases where a boat type rating can be destroyed by having a top sailor on that type of boat. At least notionally, the term is "performance handicap". If a boat type is doing too well (or even one boat of that type), the rating can be summarily changed. It has happened around here. I stay away from PHRF sailing, but then I have that option. > > Cheers > Charlie > > ________________________________ > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:12 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > > > In SF, as I recall, no credit is given for non spinnakers and credit is only given if your largest headsail is very small, 100+- don't remember exact number. A 135 would not get credit around here if my memory is better than it normally is :^) > > Everywhere is different but I think everyone assumes your boat and sails are in top condition and the boat is sailed well. You can't get a better handicap by being a poor sailor. > > Allen > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:10 AM, <pwestla@...<mailto:pwestla@...>> wrote: > > > > It is my understanding the that PHRF rating "assume" your boat is already optimized to be competitive. Max # 1 sails of 155%, folding or feathering props, spinnaker poles of the exact max length, etc. since this number is considered a local rating, your boat may be given points for non-optimum setup. I get 3 points for my three bladed fixed prop, but nothing for my 135 roller furling headsail. > > On the Chesapeake the form asks for your largest headsail. I assume if your largest is a 135 you'd get a credit but I'm not sure. All props are rated differently and allowances given. All boats are rated with a spinnaker so you can register in the non-spin fleet if you are short of crew or whatever. We now have a Corinthian fleet as well that is an attempt to let guys be competitive that don't want to keep throwing the big bucks out on sails etc. Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well > > Paul >

Belle Aurora's low handicap (low meaning faster, more penalized) would suggest that ORR appropriately accounted for the benefits of the carbon mast and/or other factors that might have made it faster. An interesting difference among the Cal-40s is that BA rated with an asymmetrical spinnaker on a pole, GWTW rated with just symmetrical spinnakers, and Sinn Fein rates with an asymmetrical carried only on center-line. This later choice (asymmetrical on center-line) seems like a good choice for a more beneficial handicap if the wind is typically on-the-beam or forward. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: TIZ_1<mailto:ti… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:15 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! - Paul Paul, I'm really surprised at the non-hit for a carbon mast in phrf. I got hit when I installed the updated C40 rudder -3 and it really made no difference I could tell except when motoring. Taking ~100lbs out of the rig would make a big difference I think. But every PHRF area is different so you never know. Your comment not to take it too seriously is spot-on. In ORR Belle Aurora did sail with the lowest handicap of the C40's. Sinn Fein had the highest of the C40's. Why, I wouldn't know, but there must have been differences. The listing is here: http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scratch%20Sheet2010.pdf<http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scratch%20Sheet2010.pdf> I think the C39 owes the C40 because you can point higher. Other angles are perceived to be about the same. But a C40 on a reach/run is not rate-able in my opinion. I would not be surprised at all by your assumptions on Sinn Fein. They do tend to have a method in mind when they set out. If you can find any info on their strategy from past races you'd see that directly. And they load the boat with good drivers. --Kevin --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, pwestla@... wrote: > > > > > PHRF / IRC / ORR are all rating rules which attempt to equalize boats' > performance and allow them a fair comparison on the race course. Given that, in > order to enter the race, all boats had to provide a rating certificate > signed off by a measurer. I would accept as fact that any of the boats was > rated correctly and had any alterations calculated in the handicap. The > scratch sheet would show ratings for each boat. I can tell you that kevlar sails > are considered standard equipment. A carbon mast would cause a rating > adjustment for sure. > > > Kevin - if you saw my previous post they did not take a PHRF hit for the > carbon mast. I know as I race against him in Oxford. Hopefully he took a > hit with his ORR rating but I don't know. > > I heard 2nd or 3rd hand that in a previous Bermuda race, Sinn Fein opted > to be rated w/o a spinnaker as they didn't feel the wind angles required > one. Dunno if that is true or not. > > > > But every boat has to actually sail the race. I can assure you that the > Bermuda Race is not an easy race to complete and even harder to win or have a > podium finish. The course crosses the Gulf Stream which adds a factor of > complication to the race that many don't understand. It's 635 miles so > overnight sailing and crew management is a factor. Weather is a huge factor. > > Getting caught in an eddy swirling in the wrong direction is a killer. > > The cal 40's swept because they were well prepared, well sailed, had the > right weather (wind speed / angle) and had probably a good bit of luck. From > looking at the tracks I would think Sinn Fein might have gotten their 5th > 1st in division if they had not sailed so far west of the fleet. Maybe the > Cal's had the best helmsmen (helmspeople?)? > > Looking at Belle Aurore's track they appeared to be trying to stay in a > consistent breeze more than anything as they were all over the place, whereas > Sinn Fein looked to be following a pre-determined route come Hell or high > water. > > > Sinn Fein has won their class something like 4 times and last time (2008) > won the division and entire overall. You don't do that simply because you > have a gift rating or sail in the wrong class. Not in this race. > > That's for sure. Too many variables to allow a rating to ruin a race > although a favorable rating never hurts. > > Paul > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System. It is used all over North America for sure and in many other parts of the world as far as I know. Other rules are more popular in Europe (I forget which ones). Probably elsewhere as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_Handicap_Racing_Fleet I would say Belle Aurora had its modifications rated at least for the NBR (in ORR rating). This is proven by the scratch sheet for the NBR. Apparently not for PHRF which is up to the local PHRF committee. In OD the boats must be the same dimensions and all use the same size sails. No rating adjustments are used. You can look at the boats on the race course and know who is leading without figuring time differences. --Kevin --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "r_michael_taylor" <r_michael_taylor@...> wrote: > > Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. > > So the summary I got from all the comments are these: > 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. > 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). > 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. > > And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. > > thanks! > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, mayman252000@ wrote: > > > > John, > > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > > Jim > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@> > > Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > > To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” > > > > > > > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… > > > > > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > > > > > Ymmv > > > > john > > >

What's the decoder ring for the ORR #s? ORR6 ORR8 ORR10 ORR12 ORR16 ORR20 ORR24 --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fin Beven" <finbeven@...> wrote: > > Belle Aurora's low handicap (low meaning faster, more penalized) would suggest that ORR appropriately accounted for the benefits of the carbon mast and/or other factors that might have made it faster. An interesting difference among the Cal-40s is that BA rated with an asymmetrical spinnaker on a pole, GWTW rated with just symmetrical spinnakers, and Sinn Fein rates with an asymmetrical carried only on center-line. This later choice (asymmetrical on center-line) seems like a good choice for a more beneficial handicap if the wind is typically on-the-beam or forward. > > Fin. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TIZ_1<mailto:tiz_1@... > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:15 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! - Paul > > > Paul, > > I'm really surprised at the non-hit for a carbon mast in phrf. I got hit when I installed the updated C40 rudder -3 and it really made no difference I could tell except when motoring. Taking ~100lbs out of the rig would make a big difference I think. But every PHRF area is different so you never know. Your comment not to take it too seriously is spot-on. > > In ORR Belle Aurora did sail with the lowest handicap of the C40's. Sinn Fein had the highest of the C40's. Why, I wouldn't know, but there must have been differences. The listing is here: > > http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scratch%20Shee\ t2010.pdf<http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scra\ tch%20Sheet2010.pdf> > > I think the C39 owes the C40 because you can point higher. Other angles are perceived to be about the same. But a C40 on a reach/run is not rate-able in my opinion. > > I would not be surprised at all by your assumptions on Sinn Fein. They do tend to have a method in mind when they set out. If you can find any info on their strategy from past races you'd see that directly. And they load the boat with good drivers. > > --Kevin > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, pwestla@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > PHRF / IRC / ORR are all rating rules which attempt to equalize boats' > > performance and allow them a fair comparison on the race course. Given that, in > > order to enter the race, all boats had to provide a rating certificate > > signed off by a measurer. I would accept as fact that any of the boats was > > rated correctly and had any alterations calculated in the handicap. The > > scratch sheet would show ratings for each boat. I can tell you that kevlar sails > > are considered standard equipment. A carbon mast would cause a rating > > adjustment for sure. > > > > > > Kevin - if you saw my previous post they did not take a PHRF hit for the > > carbon mast. I know as I race against him in Oxford. Hopefully he took a > > hit with his ORR rating but I don't know. > > > > I heard 2nd or 3rd hand that in a previous Bermuda race, Sinn Fein opted > > to be rated w/o a spinnaker as they didn't feel the wind angles required > > one. Dunno if that is true or not. > > > > > > > > But every boat has to actually sail the race. I can assure you that the > > Bermuda Race is not an easy race to complete and even harder to win or have a > > podium finish. The course crosses the Gulf Stream which adds a factor of > > complication to the race that many don't understand. It's 635 miles so > > overnight sailing and crew management is a factor. Weather is a huge factor. > > > > Getting caught in an eddy swirling in the wrong direction is a killer. > > > > The cal 40's swept because they were well prepared, well sailed, had the > > right weather (wind speed / angle) and had probably a good bit of luck. From > > looking at the tracks I would think Sinn Fein might have gotten their 5th > > 1st in division if they had not sailed so far west of the fleet. Maybe the > > Cal's had the best helmsmen (helmspeople?)? > > > > Looking at Belle Aurore's track they appeared to be trying to stay in a > > consistent breeze more than anything as they were all over the place, whereas > > Sinn Fein looked to be following a pre-determined route come Hell or high > > water. > > > > > > Sinn Fein has won their class something like 4 times and last time (2008) > > won the division and entire overall. You don't do that simply because you > > have a gift rating or sail in the wrong class. Not in this race. > > > > That's for sure. Too many variables to allow a rating to ruin a race > > although a favorable rating never hurts. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

PHRF NW and PHRF socal both think their acronym stands for pacific handicap racing fleet. maybe the venerable wiki got it wrong in the case ... or there are two different PHRFs in use... http://www.phrf-nw.org/ <http://www.phrf-nw.org/> and the socal people too http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php <http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php> --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "TIZ_1" <tiz_1@...> wrote: > > PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System. It is used all over North America for sure and in many other parts of the world as far as I know. Other rules are more popular in Europe (I forget which ones). Probably elsewhere as well. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_Handicap_Racing_Fleet > > I would say Belle Aurora had its modifications rated at least for the NBR (in ORR rating). This is proven by the scratch sheet for the NBR. Apparently not for PHRF which is up to the local PHRF committee. > > In OD the boats must be the same dimensions and all use the same size sails. No rating adjustments are used. You can look at the boats on the race course and know who is leading without figuring time differences. > > --Kevin > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "r_michael_taylor" r_michael_taylor@ wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. > > > > So the summary I got from all the comments are these: > > 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. > > 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). > > 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. > > > > And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. > > > > thanks! > > > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, mayman252000@ wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > > > Jim > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@> > > > Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > > > > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” > > > > > > > > > > > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > > > > > > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ymmv > > > > > > john > > > > > >

But Wait - it's inexpensive only a couple hundred $ a year to renew a cert! I think our 1st Americap cert, including the inspection and haul-out for weight - only cost us a few thousand $. dEmO Individual handicaps for different course configurations - The ORR certificate lists ratings for five course configurations plus two courses specifically for non-spinnaker racing: 1. Closed Course - All Purpose 2. Windward 60% Leeward 40% - (Upwind finish) 3. Windward 50% Leeward 50% - (Downwind finish) 4. Offshore - All Purpose 5. Offshore - All Purpose - Non Spinnaker 6. Offshore - Mainly Downwind 7. Closed Course - All Purpose - Non Spinnaker In addition custom course configurations, wind conditions, single number time on time, and single number time on distance options are all-available upon request. Unique courses may also be generated via the Valid List when downloading data. Sophisticated Yet Simple-to-use Scoring System - The formula for calculating ORR Corrected Time = (A x elapsed time) - (B x distance). The factors A & B are listed on the ORR certificate and are different for each course. This easy-to-use formula is actually a clever simplification of the full IMS scoring solution. Scorers and race organizers will find the calculation of corrected times simple and easily done either by calculator or a computer spreadsheet program. Similarly, owners and tacticians can calculate corrected times positions while on the racecourse. For large events custom Excel spreadsheets can be generated and distributed to competitors allowing for on the water comparisons of their position with regard to other boats. Maximum Crew Weight is Now Selectable - One designs can now compete without penalty at their class crew weight limits. Others can race with the number of crew they want - a lot, or a few - your choice. Renewed certificates will come using the AMERICAP II(tm) default value. Contact US SAILING offshore office if you want to change. For renewing certificate holders, this first time is free. Subsequent changes will incur a processing fee Central Administration - ORR ratings are universal, and are calculated and maintained by US SAILING's Offshore Office. Inexpensive - ORR certificates can be easily produced for unmodified sister ships of eligible production yachts. Standardized dimensions will used in the VPP and an ORR certificate will be produced and sent to the owner within two weeks of receipt of the completed application and fee of $5.50 per foot of overall length. Other yachts can obtain ORR certificates once the yacht is measured for ORR. Ongoing Research - ORR has an ongoing research effort The ORR Technical Committee solicits input from racers and race organizers to evaluate and improve rule effectiveness. Analyses of sail aerodynamics and hull/appendage hydrodynamics are based on ongoing tank testing and wind tunnel testing. Results, when ready, are factored into the ORR VPP on an annual schedule. As more accurate science becomes available, inequities in ratings of diverse boat configurations will be reduced. Experimental certificates permitting you to explore rig and sail change effects are allowed - contact us for more details at of… [at] ussailing.org<mailto:of… [at] ussailing.org> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r_michael_taylor Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 1:26 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! - Paul What's the decoder ring for the ORR #s? ORR6 ORR8 ORR10 ORR12 ORR16 ORR20 ORR24 --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Fin Beven" <finbeven@...> wrote: > > Belle Aurora's low handicap (low meaning faster, more penalized) would suggest that ORR appropriately accounted for the benefits of the carbon mast and/or other factors that might have made it faster. An interesting difference among the Cal-40s is that BA rated with an asymmetrical spinnaker on a pole, GWTW rated with just symmetrical spinnakers, and Sinn Fein rates with an asymmetrical carried only on center-line. This later choice (asymmetrical on center-line) seems like a good choice for a more beneficial handicap if the wind is typically on-the-beam or forward. > > Fin. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TIZ_1<mailto:tiz_1@... > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:15 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! - Paul > > > Paul, > > I'm really surprised at the non-hit for a carbon mast in phrf. I got hit when I installed the updated C40 rudder -3 and it really made no difference I could tell except when motoring. Taking ~100lbs out of the rig would make a big difference I think. But every PHRF area is different so you never know. Your comment not to take it too seriously is spot-on. > > In ORR Belle Aurora did sail with the lowest handicap of the C40's. Sinn Fein had the highest of the C40's. Why, I wouldn't know, but there must have been differences. The listing is here: > > http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scratch%20Sheet2010.pdf<http://bermudarace.com/Portals/0/Uploads/Documents/Public/Scratch%20Sheet2010.pdf> > > I think the C39 owes the C40 because you can point higher. Other angles are perceived to be about the same. But a C40 on a reach/run is not rate-able in my opinion. > > I would not be surprised at all by your assumptions on Sinn Fein. They do tend to have a method in mind when they set out. If you can find any info on their strategy from past races you'd see that directly. And they load the boat with good drivers. > > --Kevin > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, pwestla@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > PHRF / IRC / ORR are all rating rules which attempt to equalize boats' > > performance and allow them a fair comparison on the race course. Given that, in > > order to enter the race, all boats had to provide a rating certificate > > signed off by a measurer. I would accept as fact that any of the boats was > > rated correctly and had any alterations calculated in the handicap. The > > scratch sheet would show ratings for each boat. I can tell you that kevlar sails > > are considered standard equipment. A carbon mast would cause a rating > > adjustment for sure. > > > > > > Kevin - if you saw my previous post they did not take a PHRF hit for the > > carbon mast. I know as I race against him in Oxford. Hopefully he took a > > hit with his ORR rating but I don't know. > > > > I heard 2nd or 3rd hand that in a previous Bermuda race, Sinn Fein opted > > to be rated w/o a spinnaker as they didn't feel the wind angles required > > one. Dunno if that is true or not. > > > > > > > > But every boat has to actually sail the race. I can assure you that the > > Bermuda Race is not an easy race to complete and even harder to win or have a > > podium finish. The course crosses the Gulf Stream which adds a factor of > > complication to the race that many don't understand. It's 635 miles so > > overnight sailing and crew management is a factor. Weather is a huge factor. > > > > Getting caught in an eddy swirling in the wrong direction is a killer. > > > > The cal 40's swept because they were well prepared, well sailed, had the > > right weather (wind speed / angle) and had probably a good bit of luck. From > > looking at the tracks I would think Sinn Fein might have gotten their 5th > > 1st in division if they had not sailed so far west of the fleet. Maybe the > > Cal's had the best helmsmen (helmspeople?)? > > > > Looking at Belle Aurore's track they appeared to be trying to stay in a > > consistent breeze more than anything as they were all over the place, whereas > > Sinn Fein looked to be following a pre-determined route come Hell or high > > water. > > > > > > Sinn Fein has won their class something like 4 times and last time (2008) > > won the division and entire overall. You don't do that simply because you > > have a gift rating or sail in the wrong class. Not in this race. > > > > That's for sure. Too many variables to allow a rating to ruin a race > > although a favorable rating never hurts. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

socal PHRF changed in 1973 1973 - The Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet officially changed its name to the PERFORMANCE HANDICAP RACING FLEET. PHRF racing began to appear in yachting centers worldwide. US-PHRF was formed and performance handicapping became a nationwide phenomenon, headquartered in Peggy Gregory's office. from http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php you know wiki isn't wrong. LOL. --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "r_michael_taylor" <r_michael_taylor@...> wrote: > > > PHRF NW and PHRF socal both think their acronym stands for pacific > handicap racing fleet. > > maybe the venerable wiki got it wrong in the case ... or there are two > different PHRFs in use... > > http://www.phrf-nw.org/ <http://www.phrf-nw.org/> > > and the socal people too > > http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php > <http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php> > > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "TIZ_1" <tiz_1@> wrote: > > > > PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System...

Apparently I didn't read far enough down. Nevertheless, PHRF-NW is the pacific handicap racing fleet - Northwest. i've asked a person here for any detail on the history of the names. --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "pineapplegirlc320" <sailsfbay@...> wrote: > > socal PHRF changed in 1973 > 1973 - The Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet officially changed its name to the PERFORMANCE HANDICAP RACING FLEET. PHRF racing began to appear in yachting centers worldwide. US-PHRF was formed and performance handicapping became a nationwide phenomenon, headquartered in Peggy Gregory's office. > from http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php > > you know wiki isn't wrong. LOL. > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "r_michael_taylor" <r_michael_taylor@> wrote: > > > > > > PHRF NW and PHRF socal both think their acronym stands for pacific > > handicap racing fleet. > > > > maybe the venerable wiki got it wrong in the case ... or there are two > > different PHRFs in use... > > > > http://www.phrf-nw.org/ <http://www.phrf-nw.org/> > > > > and the socal people too > > > > http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php > > <http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php> > > > > > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "TIZ_1" <tiz_1@> wrote: > > > > > > PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System... >

Kevin, thanks for clarifying what PHRF stands for and means. It kind of means that if you are not doing anything else, you got PHRF. Everybody remember the word "performance". There is a new PHRF item related to time-on-time that goes on top of the rating. Might be useful to account for differing wind conditions. IMS attempted to cover for all conditions at all times making impossible for race committees (I was there). One Design! CAL 25s RULE! Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TIZ_1 Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 4:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System. It is used all over North America for sure and in many other parts of the world as far as I know. Other rules are more popular in Europe (I forget which ones). Probably elsewhere as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_Handicap_Racing_Fleet I would say Belle Aurora had its modifications rated at least for the NBR (in ORR rating). This is proven by the scratch sheet for the NBR. Apparently not for PHRF which is up to the local PHRF committee. In OD the boats must be the same dimensions and all use the same size sails. No rating adjustments are used. You can look at the boats on the race course and know who is leading without figuring time differences. --Kevin --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "r_michael_taylor" <r_michael_taylor@...> wrote: > > Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. > > So the summary I got from all the comments are these: > 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. > 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). > 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. > > And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. > > thanks! > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, mayman252000@ wrote: > > > > John, > > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > > Jim > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@> > > Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > > To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and > > there are other equipment requirements as well” > > > > > > > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes > > me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old > > boats, but… > > > > > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > > > > > Ymmv > > > > john > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Michael, You Left Coast people have to realize that there is more out there than Ca. It really is Performance Handicap Racing Formula. Pacific was nowhere in the mix. Regards, David Dobbs, Cal29 411 --- On Fri, 6/25/10, r_michael_taylor <r_… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: r_michael_taylor <r_… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 3:34 PM PHRF NW and PHRF socal both think their acronym stands for pacific handicap racing fleet. maybe the venerable wiki got it wrong in the case ... or there are two different PHRFs in use... http://www.phrf- nw.org/ and the socal people too http://www.phrfsoca l.org/history/ history.php --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "TIZ_1" <tiz_1@...> wrote: > > PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System. It is used all over North America for sure and in many other parts of the world as far as I know. Other rules are more popular in Europe (I forget which ones). Probably elsewhere as well. > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Performance_ Handicap_ Racing_Fleet > > I would say Belle Aurora had its modifications rated at least for the NBR (in ORR rating). This is proven by the scratch sheet for the NBR. Apparently not for PHRF which is up to the local PHRF committee. > > In OD the boats must be the same dimensions and all use the same size sails. No rating adjustments are used. You can look at the boats on the race course and know who is leading without figuring time differences. > > --Kevin > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "r_michael_taylor" r_michael_taylor@ wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. > > > > So the summary I got from all the comments are these: > > 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. > > 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). > > 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. > > > > And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. > > > > thanks! > > > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, mayman252000@ wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > > > Jim > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@> > > > Sender: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > > > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Reply-To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > > > > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” > > > > > > > > > > > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > > > > > > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ymmv > > > > > > john > > > > > >

It's a matter of history. From the link already posted below: 1959 - Officers of the organization were proposed and a set of by-laws were drafted. The name of the new association was to be the PACIFIC HANDICAP RACING FLEET 1973 - The Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet officially changed its name to the PERFORMANCE HANDICAP RACING FLEET. From: david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, June 25, 2010 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! Michael, You Left Coast people have to realize that there is more out there than Ca. It really is Performance Handicap Racing Formula. Pacific was nowhere in the mix. Regards, David Dobbs, Cal29 411 --- On Fri, 6/25/10, r_michael_taylor <r_michael_taylor@ yahoo.com> wrote: >From: r_michael_taylor <r_michael_taylor@ yahoo.com> >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! >To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 3:34 PM > > > >PHRF NW and PHRF socal both think their acronym stands for pacific handicap racing fleet. >maybe the venerable wiki got it wrong in the case ... or there are two different PHRFs in use... >http://www.phrf-nw.org/ >and the socal people too >http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php > >--- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "TIZ_1" <tiz_1@...> wrote: >> >> PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System. It is used all over North America for sure and in many other parts of the world as far as I know. Other rules are more popular in Europe (I forget which ones). Probably elsewhere as well. >> >> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Performance_ Handicap_ Racing_Fleet >> >> I would say Belle Aurora had its modifications rated at least for the NBR (in ORR rating). This is proven by the scratch sheet for the NBR. Apparently not for PHRF which is up to the local PHRF committee. >> >> In OD the boats must be the same dimensions and all use the same size sails. No rating adjustments are used. You can look at the boats on the race course and know who is leading without figuring time differences. >> >> --Kevin >> >> --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "r_michael_taylor" r_michael_taylor@ wrote: >> > >> > Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. >> > >> > So the summary I got from all the comments are these: >> > 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. >> > 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). >> > 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. >> > >> > And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. >> > >> > thanks! >> > >> > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, mayman252000@ wrote: >> > > >> > > John, >> > > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! >> > > Jim >> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@> >> > > Sender: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >> > > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 >> > > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >> > > Reply-To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >> > > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! >> > > >> > > “Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well” >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > This requirement for “cost control” in one design always makes me laugh. I can’t afford a “used set” for any of my old boats, but… >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the “new sails” midyear to keep him in the best equipment. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Ymmv >> > > >> > > john >> > > >> > >> >

John, I try to learn something new every day. You covered me early so I am taking the rest of the day off. We have a twilight race this afternoon. Expiration time of midnight. Spent the last couple weeks completely redoing the electrical system (humble that it be) in my CAL 25 Chicken Little. Sure was hot in there. But the "assurance" of working electrics and lights is comforting. Lots of Ancor wire, heat shrink connectors, fancy stripping and crimping tools, and Lanocote. Might as well do it right if one is going to do it. The Chesapeake is subject to sea breezes forming from the south on hot days. Can get some real blows and square waves because of the long fetch and the water getting pushed up into the shallower northern Bay. Could get interesting. Although a nice smooth moderate evening would be a pleasure. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Courter Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 3:16 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! It's a matter of history. From the link already posted below: 1959 - Officers of the organization were proposed and a set of by-laws were drafted. The name of the new association was to be the PACIFIC HANDICAP RACING FLEET 1973 - The Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet officially changed its name to the PERFORMANCE HANDICAP RACING FLEET. From: david dobbs <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, June 25, 2010 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! Michael, You Left Coast people have to realize that there is more out there than Ca. It really is Performance Handicap Racing Formula. Pacific was nowhere in the mix. Regards, David Dobbs, Cal29 411 --- On Fri, 6/25/10, r_michael_taylor <r_michael_taylor@ yahoo.com<http://yahoo.com/>> wrote: From: r_michael_taylor <r_michael_taylor@ yahoo.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com<http://ps.com/> Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 3:34 PM PHRF NW and PHRF socal both think their acronym stands for pacific handicap racing fleet. maybe the venerable wiki got it wrong in the case ... or there are two different PHRFs in use... http://www.phrf-nw.org/ and the socal people too http://www.phrfsocal.org/history/history.php --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "TIZ_1" <tiz_1@...> wrote: > > PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Rating System. It is used all over North America for sure and in many other parts of the world as far as I know. Other rules are more popular in Europe (I forget which ones). Probably elsewhere as well. > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Performance_ Handicap_ Racing_Fleet > > I would say Belle Aurora had its modifications rated at least for the NBR (in ORR rating). This is proven by the scratch sheet for the NBR. Apparently not for PHRF which is up to the local PHRF committee. > > In OD the boats must be the same dimensions and all use the same size sails. No rating adjustments are used. You can look at the boats on the race course and know who is leading without figuring time differences. > > --Kevin > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, "r_michael_taylor" r_michael_taylor@ wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the thoughtful comments on ratings and racing. I'm about to get my sails re-measured as I gather the PHRF rating system here in the NW changed in 2004/5. I plan to measure my main, my largest spinnaker, and probably both my 170 and 150 headsails. > > > > So the summary I got from all the comments are these: > > 1. OD has the fewest biases, though even there sail upgrades are permitted. > > 2. Belle Aurore, well sailed as she was, nevertheless had an advantage in both weight and rating because of the carbon mast (at least that's what this list said because I'm not certain anyone has the facts on Belle Aurore's rating). > > 3. Sinn Fein has been a consistent campaigner over the years of Newport to Bermuda. > > > > And one last observation and question. Since people were using PHRF as an example and that's where I'm getting my rating. PHRF = Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. How broadly is this rating system used? I see Newport Bermuda uses two systems, ORR and IRC, and Gone With The Wind doesn't show up at all in the IRC rating result. > > > > thanks! > > > > --- In Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com, mayman252000@ wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > You are on the money. A guy in our fleet put two new 3DL's on his boat last fall for our regatta season. Didn't help! This year he is sitting in 9th out of 16. His position went down hill when he lost his best crew member last year. He would have been better served to save the money, quit yelling and get his ace back! > > > Jim > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "john raxter" <jraxter@> > > > Sender: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:21:06 > > > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Reply-To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 40 Sweep~! > > > > > > "Limit is one new sail per year or something along those lines and there are other equipment requirements as well" > > > > > > > > > > > > This requirement for "cost control" in one design always makes me laugh. I can't afford a "used set" for any of my old boats, but... > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a cruiser and not a racer so having optimal sails is not an issue. So, why does this make me laugh? > > > > > > > > > > > > As a competitive sailor one may choose to buy a new set of sail each year ( I think the local flying scot will go 2 years). When they start getting beat, what would they do? Campaign another boat and use the "new sails" midyear to keep him in the best equipment. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, most of the time it is more crew, driver skill and not equipment deficiencies. You will never convince them of that thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ymmv > > > > > > john > > > > > >