Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry)

Jerry, Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Charles, > On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers > lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, > and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have > gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with > cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and > resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed > with cars than ever? > > There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, > three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his > free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a > new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style > "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that > appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little > market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, > correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which > was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is > now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato > chips, my official indiction of true inflation. > > Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating > emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted > the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the > industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry > became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar > water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA > in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go > towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental > hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and > eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 > said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes > of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if > you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. > Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) > I'll shut up now. > Jerry. > > --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com>*wrote: > > > From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM > > > > But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you > don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is > an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only > did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. > Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy > Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of > business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, > in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true > costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer > by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at > that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... > > Charles > S/V Boomerang! > 1980 Cal 39, Mark II > St Michaels, MD > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> > *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > *Sent:* Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > > > > > > In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: > > The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry > per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that > virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine > > > What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was > the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any > additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by > being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people > had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a > year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming > is really pretty scary. > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > '80 Cal 39 > > > > > >

Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no idea. It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > Jerry, > > Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > >> >> >> Charles, >> On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers >> lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, >> and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have >> gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with >> cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and >> resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed >> with cars than ever? >> >> There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, >> three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his >> free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a >> new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style >> "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that >> appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little >> market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, >> correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which >> was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is >> now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato >> chips, my official indiction of true inflation. >> >> Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating >> emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted >> the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the >> industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry >> became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar >> water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA >> in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go >> towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental >> hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and >> eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 >> said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes >> of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if >> you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. >> Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) >> I'll shut up now. >> Jerry. >> >> --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com>*wrote: >> >> >> From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM >> >> >> >> But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you >> don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is >> an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only >> did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. >> Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy >> Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of >> business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, >> in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true >> costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer >> by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at >> that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... >> >> Charles >> S/V Boomerang! >> 1980 Cal 39, Mark II >> St Michaels, MD >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> >> *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >> *Sent:* Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >> >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: >> >> The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine >> industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy >> carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved >> Jenson Marine >> >> >> What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was >> the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any >> additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by >> being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people >> had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a >> year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming >> is really pretty scary. >> >> Paul West >> Adventure Kwest >> '80 Cal 39 >> >> >> >> >> >> > >

if everybody believed the luxury tax applied to the entire cost, that perception, even though incorrect, would cause prospective buyers to buy somewhere which did ot have the tax. thus impacting the industry, right or wrong Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:36 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no idea. It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Jerry, Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Charles, On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) I'll shut up now. Jerry. --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... Charles S/V Boomerang! 1980 Cal 39, Mark II St Michaels, MD From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39

Right wing what? I think you need 2 wings to fly, A right and a left. Labels are so easy to apply, aren't they. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 6:17:36 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no idea. It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Jerry, > > >Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) > > >Allen > > >On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>Charles, >>On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost >>their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales >>of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. >>Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, >>mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current >>depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? >> >>There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three >>quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies >>of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new >>manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" >>yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in >>the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, >>the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the >>luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, >>like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy >>bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. >> >>Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating >>emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the >>solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry >>when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president >>after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the >>white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and >>nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said >>ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the >>patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in >>Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's >>depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way >>to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air >>traffic controller back then. >>Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) >>I'll shut up now. >>Jerry. >> >>--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM >>> >>> >>> >>>But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you >>>don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is >>>an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did >>>the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched >>>it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and >>>watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their >>>manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize >>>their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. >>>Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter >>>industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them >>>all.... >>> Charles >>>S/V Boomerang! >>>1980 Cal 39, Mark II >>>St Michaels, MD >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> >>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ >>>yahoo.com writes: >>>The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per >>>se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually >>>killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine >> >>What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the >>luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional >>revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily >>separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid >>the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why >>the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. >> >>Paul West >>Adventure Kwest >>'80 Cal 39 >> >> >>> >

* * On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:54 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Right wing what? > lie *n.* *1. *A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. *2. *Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. > Labels are so easy to apply, aren't they. > And the truth is hard for some people to acknowledge if their preconceived notions get in the way. But I was talking about boats and the end of a boating myth that I had believed for many years until enlightened by Jerry. So I am acknowledge the truth, and thanking Jerry. I was also acknowledging my stupidity for not recognizing the lie for what it was. I don't know if you believed this lie, Mike, or if you would now acknowledge your mistake if you did as I have just done. Allen > My Best, Mike > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, July 8, 2010 6:17:36 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > > Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts > out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the > boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 > a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that > a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure > from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over > $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the > boating industry. I had no idea. > > It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I > fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. > I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right > wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. > > So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) >> >> Allen >> >> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Charles, >>> On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers >>> lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, >>> and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have >>> gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with >>> cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and >>> resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed >>> with cars than ever? >>> >>> There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, >>> three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his >>> free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a >>> new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style >>> "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that >>> appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little >>> market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, >>> correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which >>> was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is >>> now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato >>> chips, my official indiction of true inflation. >>> >>> Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating >>> emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted >>> the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the >>> industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry >>> became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar >>> water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA >>> in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go >>> towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental >>> hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and >>> eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 >>> said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes >>> of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if >>> you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. >>> Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) >>> I'll shut up now. >>> Jerry. >>> >>> --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com>*wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>> Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM >>> >>> >>> >>> But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps >>> you don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, >>> FRP is an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not >>> only did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the >>> roof. Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and >>> Teddy Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of >>> business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, >>> in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true >>> costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer >>> by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at >>> that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... >>> >>> Charles >>> S/V Boomerang! >>> 1980 Cal 39, Mark II >>> St Michaels, MD >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> >>> *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>> *Sent:* Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>> vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: >>> >>> The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine >>> industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy >>> carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved >>> Jenson Marine >>> >>> >>> What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry >>> was the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any >>> additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by >>> being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people >>> had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a >>> year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming >>> is really pretty scary. >>> >>> Paul West >>> Adventure Kwest >>> '80 Cal 39 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > >

The free market doesn't work that way Reggie. Salesmen would correct that impression in a millisecond. But typical of the way these lies last, someone would actually put that forward as a serious explanation why reality didn't matter. I am sure you are not seriously suggesting that though. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:53 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > if everybody believed the luxury tax applied to the entire cost, that > perception, even though incorrect, would cause prospective buyers to buy > somewhere which did ot have the tax. thus impacting the industry, right or > wrong > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these > facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed > the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about > $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may > be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I > am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was > over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill > the boating industry. I had no idea. > > It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I > fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. > I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right > wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. > > So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > Jerry, > > Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > > > Charles, > On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers > lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, > and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have > gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with > cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and > resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed > with cars than ever? > > There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, > three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his > free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a > new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style > "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that > appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little > market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, > correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which > was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is > now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato > chips, my official indiction of true inflation. > > Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating > emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted > the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the > industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry > became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar > water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA > in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go > towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental > hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and > eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 > said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes > of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if > you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. > Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) > I'll shut up now. > Jerry. > > --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com>*wrote: > > > From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM > > > > But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you > don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is > an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only > did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. > Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy > Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of > business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, > in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true > costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer > by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at > that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... > > Charles > S/V Boomerang! > 1980 Cal 39, Mark II > St Michaels, MD > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> > *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > *Sent:* Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > > > > > > In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: > > The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry > per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that > virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine > > > What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was > the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any > additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by > being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people > had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a > year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming > is really pretty scary. > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > '80 Cal 39 > > > > > > > > > >

Mike, you say you need two wings to fly? What about a Maple seed? And how do you tell a right wing maple seed from a left wing maple seed? I'd hate to have a home with a politically incorrect maple tree next to it, unless it produce a lot of maple syrup, that is. Mm-mm-mm, pass me another pancake, and another pat of real butter. Jerry --- On Thu, 7/8/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 6:54 PM Right wing what? I think you need 2 wings to fly, A right and a left. Labels are so easy to apply, aren't they. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 6:17:36 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no idea. It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@ gmail.com> wrote: Jerry, Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> wrote: Charles, On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) I'll shut up now. Jerry. --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <boomerang_cal39@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: Charles Strasburger <boomerang_cal39@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... Charles S/V Boomerang! 1980 Cal 39, Mark II St Michaels, MD From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39

Allen, I saw what government regulation and tax and spend did to the marine industry in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Hank Easom closed his yard in Sausalito because he was unwilling to have control of his business taken away from him. The worst words an American can be told " I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." The luxury tax may have finished off a wounded industry but what about all those workers, the "little people" who lost their jobs because government needed more revenue. Today when I look in SF Marina I see many new boats, Beneteau(France) by far and large seems to be the choice for luxury cruisers. X Yachts, (Denmark) CS Yachts(Canada) and the list goes on. " He who governs least, governs best." Thomas Jefferson I don't think you are stupid Allen, there are many sides to every issue and each side has it's value. Did the Obama administration understand what a drilling ban would do to the economy in the gulf? Your government in action or reaction. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 7:47:14 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:54 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > Right wing what? lie n. 1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. 2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. Labels are so easy to apply, aren't they. And the truth is hard for some people to acknowledge if their preconceived notions get in the way. But I was talking about boats and the end of a boating myth that I had believed for many years until enlightened by Jerry. So I am acknowledge the truth, and thanking Jerry. I was also acknowledging my stupidity for not recognizing the lie for what it was. I don't know if you believed this lie, Mike, or if you would now acknowledge your mistake if you did as I have just done. Allen My Best, Mike > > > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 6:17:36 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > > >Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. > I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating >industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my >36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not >have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say >that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only >10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no >idea. > > > >It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell >for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should >have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when >you actually know the truth. Shame on me. > > >So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > >Allen > > > >On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >Jerry, >> >> >>Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Charles, >>>On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost >>>their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales >>>of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. >>>Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, >>>mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current >>>depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? >>> >>>There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three >>>quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies >>>of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new >>>manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" >>>yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in >>>the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, >>>the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the >>>luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, >>>like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy >>>bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. >>> >>>Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating >>>emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the >>>solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry >>>when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president >>>after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the >>>white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and >>>nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said >>>ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the >>>patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in >>>Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's >>>depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way >>>to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air >>>traffic controller back then. >>>Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) >>>I'll shut up now. >>>Jerry. >>> >>>--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you >>>>don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is >>>>an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did >>>>the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched >>>>it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and >>>>watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their >>>>manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize >>>>their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. >>>>Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter >>>>industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them >>>>all.... >>>> Charles >>>>S/V Boomerang! >>>>1980 Cal 39, Mark II >>>>St Michaels, MD >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> >>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ >>>>yahoo.com writes: >>>>The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per >>>>se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually >>>>killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine >>> >>>What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the >>>luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional >>>revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily >>>separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid >>>the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why >>>the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. >>> >>>Paul West >>>Adventure Kwest >>>'80 Cal 39 >>> >>> >>>> >> > > >

I put real honey, the organic stuff with no sugar added, on my collision mats.With real maple syrup, real butter and a cup of real coffee with 3 teaspoons of cream. I'm on a diet you see---lost 18lbs since March .15lbs to go! I now do better foredeck again but still hard to hand over hand up the mast. Always a pleasure to hear from you Jerry. My Best, Mike From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 9, 2010 12:44:33 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Mike) Mike, you say you need two wings to fly? What about a Maple seed? And how do you tell a right wing maple seed from a left wing maple seed? I'd hate to have a home with a politically incorrect maple tree next to it, unless it produce a lot of maple syrup, that is. Mm-mm-mm, pass me another pancake, and another pat of real butter. Jerry --- On Thu, 7/8/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 6:54 PM > > > > Right wing what? I think you need 2 wings to fly, A right and a left. >Labels are so easy to apply, aren't they. > > My Best, Mike > > > > From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> >To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 6:17:36 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > >Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. > I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating >industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my >36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not >have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say >that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only >10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no >idea. > > > >It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell >for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should >have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when >you actually know the truth. Shame on me. > > >So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > >Allen > > > >On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@ gmail.com> >wrote: > >Jerry, >> >> >>Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Charles, >>>On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost >>>their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales >>>of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. >>>Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, >>>mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current >>>depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? >>> >>>There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three >>>quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies >>>of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new >>>manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" >>>yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in >>>the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, >>>the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the >>>luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, >>>like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy >>>bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. >>> >>>Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating >>>emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the >>>solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry >>>when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president >>>after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the >>>white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and >>>nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said >>>ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the >>>patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in >>>Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's >>>depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way >>>to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air >>>traffic controller back then. >>>Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) >>>I'll shut up now. >>>Jerry. >>> >>>--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <boomerang_cal39@ yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>From: Charles Strasburger <boomerang_cal39@ yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you >>>>don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is >>>>an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did >>>>the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched >>>>it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and >>>>watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their >>>>manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize >>>>their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. >>>>Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter >>>>industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them >>>>all.... >>>> Charles >>>>S/V Boomerang! >>>>1980 Cal 39, Mark II >>>>St Michaels, MD >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> >>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ >>>>yahoo.com writes: >>>>The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per >>>>se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually >>>>killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine >>> >>>What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the >>>luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional >>>revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily >>>separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid >>>the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why >>>the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. >>> >>>Paul West >>>Adventure Kwest >>>'80 Cal 39 >>> >>> >>>> >> > > >

many who would believe it would not get to the point of talking to the salesman To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:29:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] luxury tax The free market doesn't work that way Reggie. Salesmen would correct that impression in a millisecond. But typical of the way these lies last, someone would actually put that forward as a serious explanation why reality didn't matter. I am sure you are not seriously suggesting that though. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:53 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: if everybody believed the luxury tax applied to the entire cost, that perception, even though incorrect, would cause prospective buyers to buy somewhere which did ot have the tax. thus impacting the industry, right or wrong Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:36 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no idea. It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Jerry, Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) Allen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Charles, On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) I'll shut up now. Jerry. --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... Charles S/V Boomerang! 1980 Cal 39, Mark II St Michaels, MD From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39

Why do you not think the recession from 6/90 to 3/91 had something to do with it rather than a people being stupid and thinking a tax that did not apply did? I do not believe people are that stupid. Almost every article I have found from the time mentions that the tax applies only to boats over $100,000. For example, this article http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/nyregion/new-luxury-tax-trimming-boat-sales.html <http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/nyregion/new-luxury-tax-trimming-boat-sales.html>talks about the number of over $100,000 boats sold. Most interesting is the dealer who sold 30 in 1989 and only 8 in 1990 and it looks like 4 in 1991. The tax started in 1991 so the decline from 30 to 8 was per tax but was during the recession. Sales were down 75% before the tax and continued down as the tax was added to the recession. Yet people were blaming the tax for the decline. Amazing. And of course, there is the dealer who specializes in over $100,000 boats who says his business is good in spite of the tax and recession. It looks to me like the dealer selling a variety of boats was probably talking about boats near $100,000 and his sales were down 75% but the dealer selling million dollar boats did not see his business go down. In fact, he specifically said the tax was not impacting his business. I thought the tax killed the pleasure boat industry like the rest of you but I am influenced by the facts and the more I look into it the clearer it becomes that it was not the tax. To use a famous quote: "It's the economy stupid". That said, the tax was clearly a dumb idea and had to have hurt the industry. Particularly unpleasant on top of a recession where it would have made more since to have a tax rebate for purchase of boats to help the industry survive. But saying it was THE cause is just garbage. And saying it put out of business people building the kind of boats we all sail seems even more absurd. Allen On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:46 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > many who would believe it would not get to the point of talking to the > salesman > > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:29:58 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] luxury tax > > > > The free market doesn't work that way Reggie. Salesmen would correct that > impression in a millisecond. But typical of the way these lies last, > someone would actually put that forward as a > serious explanation why reality didn't matter. I am sure you are not > seriously suggesting that though. > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:53 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > if everybody believed the luxury tax applied to the entire cost, that > perception, even though incorrect, would cause prospective buyers to buy > somewhere which did ot have the tax. thus impacting the industry, right or > wrong > Reggie > > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these > facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed > the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about > $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may > be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I > am sure from what you say that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was > over $100,000 and then was only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill > the boating industry. I had no idea. > > It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I > fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. > I should have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right > wing lies when you actually know the truth. Shame on me. > > So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > Jerry, > > Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > > > Charles, > On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers > lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, > and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have > gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with > cheap...for them, mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and > resulted in the current depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed > with cars than ever? > > There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, > three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his > free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a > new manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style > "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that > appear from nowhere in the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little > market for 30' and under boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, > correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which > was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is > now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag of potato > chips, my official indiction of true inflation. > > Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating > emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted > the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the > industry when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry > became president after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar > water heater off the white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA > in the north east), and nixed the solar credits so the money could go > towards subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental > hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store doorways and > eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 > said, even during the depths of the 30's depression, he never saw the likes > of it). I guess there are more than one way to look at things, especially if > you were an over worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. > Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) > I'll shut up now. > Jerry. > > --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com>*wrote: > > > From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM > > > > But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you > don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is > an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only > did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. > Watched it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy > Irwin, and watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of > business. Set up their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, > in their attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true > costs were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer > by building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late at > that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... > > Charles > S/V Boomerang! > 1980 Cal 39, Mark II > St Michaels, MD > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> > *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > *Sent:* Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > > > > > > In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: > > The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry > per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that > virtually killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine > > > What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was > the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any > additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by > being easily separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people > had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a > year old. DOH!!! Why the powers that were couldn't see that one coming > is really pretty scary. > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > '80 Cal 39 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Did you happen to look at the numbers of those expensive boats that were delivered out of the country ? California, especially southern California, has what is called The Ensenada Marina, really a series of new marinas, that were built since taxes began to impact boat sales. Some of that has always been true but it accelerated and cost the industry lots of money. Mike Kennedy On Jul 9, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > Why do you not think the recession from 6/90 to 3/91 had something > to do with it rather than a people being stupid and thinking a tax > that did not apply did? I do not believe people are that stupid. > Almost every article I have found from the time mentions that the > tax applies only to boats over $100,000. > > > For example, this article http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/nyregion/new-luxury-tax-trimming-boat-sales.html > talks about the number of over $100,000 boats sold. Most > interesting is the dealer who sold 30 in 1989 and only 8 in 1990 and > it looks like 4 in 1991. The tax started in 1991 so the decline > from 30 to 8 was per tax but was during the recession. Sales were > down 75% before the tax and continued down as the tax was added to > the recession. Yet people were blaming the tax for the decline. > Amazing. And of course, there is the dealer who specializes in over > $100,000 boats who says his business is good in spite of the tax and > recession. It looks to me like the dealer selling a variety of > boats was probably talking about boats near $100,000 and his sales > were down 75% but the dealer selling million dollar boats did not > see his business go down. In fact, he specifically said the tax was > not impacting his business. > > I thought the tax killed the pleasure boat industry like the rest of > you but I am influenced by the facts and the more I look into it the > clearer it becomes that it was not the tax. To use a famous quote: > "It's the economy stupid". > > That said, the tax was clearly a dumb idea and had to have hurt the > industry. Particularly unpleasant on top of a recession where it > would have made more since to have a tax rebate for purchase of > boats to help the industry survive. But saying it was THE cause is > just garbage. And saying it put out of business people building the > kind of boats we all sail seems even more absurd. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:46 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > many who would believe it would not get to the point of talking to > the salesman > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:29:58 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] luxury tax > > > > The free market doesn't work that way Reggie. Salesmen would correct > that impression in a millisecond. But typical of the way these lies > last, someone would actually put that forward as a serious > explanation why reality didn't matter. I am sure you are not > seriously suggesting that though. > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:53 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > if everybody believed the luxury tax applied to the entire cost, > that perception, even though incorrect, would cause prospective > buyers to buy somewhere which did ot have the tax. thus impacting > the industry, right or wrong > Reggie > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these > facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax > killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat > cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about > $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long > to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax > that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was > only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating > industry. I had no idea. > > It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing > lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it > until your post. I should have because virtually all things like > this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the > truth. Shame on me. > > So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com > > wrote: > Jerry, > > Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > Charles, > On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said > engineers lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats > became a glut, and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't > recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and > flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, mostly...money, only > threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current depression, > except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? > > There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra > rich, three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate > still gets his free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every > month there seems to be a new manufacturer of 50' or larger > "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the > source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in the Santa > Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under > boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if > I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a > tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is > now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag > of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. > > Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by > regulating emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit > margins, but, he boosted the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, > altho, most people left the industry when an unemployed movie actor > and puppet for the oil industry became president after him..I don't > remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the white > house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), > and nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards > subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental > hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store > doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon > visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's > depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more > than one way to look at things, especially if you were an over > worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. > Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) > I'll shut up now. > Jerry. > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM > > > > But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. > Perhaps you don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and > like gasoline, FRP is an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal > policies were the root. Not only did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost > to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched it happen with two > friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and watched > Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up > their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their > attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true costs > were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer by > building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late > at that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... > > Charles > S/V Boomerang! > 1980 Cal 39, Mark II > St Michaels, MD > > > From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > > > > > > In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: > The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine > industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy > carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our > beloved Jenson Marine > > What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane > industry was the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to > generate any additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people > don't become rich by being easily separated from their money". I'm > told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a > new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why the > powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > '80 Cal 39 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I think that is sales tax. I know that happens. I have known of people who have done that. You have to wait a fairly long time before you can bring it into the state though so not everyone does it. Personally, I would just pay the tax. Allen On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Michael Kennedy <mt… [at] cox.net> wrote: > Did you happen to look at the numbers of those expensive boats that > were delivered out of the country ? California, especially southern > California, has what is called The Ensenada Marina, really a series of > new marinas, that were built since taxes began to impact boat sales. > Some of that has always been true but it accelerated and cost the > industry lots of money. > > Mike Kennedy > > On Jul 9, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > Why do you not think the recession from 6/90 to 3/91 had something > > to do with it rather than a people being stupid and thinking a tax > > that did not apply did? I do not believe people are that stupid. > > Almost every article I have found from the time mentions that the > > tax applies only to boats over $100,000. > > > > > > For example, this article > http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/nyregion/new-luxury-tax-trimming-boat-sales.html > > talks about the number of over $100,000 boats sold. Most > > interesting is the dealer who sold 30 in 1989 and only 8 in 1990 and > > it looks like 4 in 1991. The tax started in 1991 so the decline > > from 30 to 8 was per tax but was during the recession. Sales were > > down 75% before the tax and continued down as the tax was added to > > the recession. Yet people were blaming the tax for the decline. > > Amazing. And of course, there is the dealer who specializes in over > > $100,000 boats who says his business is good in spite of the tax and > > recession. It looks to me like the dealer selling a variety of > > boats was probably talking about boats near $100,000 and his sales > > were down 75% but the dealer selling million dollar boats did not > > see his business go down. In fact, he specifically said the tax was > > not impacting his business. > > > > I thought the tax killed the pleasure boat industry like the rest of > > you but I am influenced by the facts and the more I look into it the > > clearer it becomes that it was not the tax. To use a famous quote: > > "It's the economy stupid". > > > > That said, the tax was clearly a dumb idea and had to have hurt the > > industry. Particularly unpleasant on top of a recession where it > > would have made more since to have a tax rebate for purchase of > > boats to help the industry survive. But saying it was THE cause is > > just garbage. And saying it put out of business people building the > > kind of boats we all sail seems even more absurd. > > > > Allen > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:46 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > many who would believe it would not get to the point of talking to > > the salesman > > > > > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:29:58 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] luxury tax > > > > > > > > The free market doesn't work that way Reggie. Salesmen would correct > > that impression in a millisecond. But typical of the way these lies > > last, someone would actually put that forward as a serious > > explanation why reality didn't matter. I am sure you are not > > seriously suggesting that though. > > > > Allen > > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:53 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > if everybody believed the luxury tax applied to the entire cost, > > that perception, even though incorrect, would cause prospective > > buyers to buy somewhere which did ot have the tax. thus impacting > > the industry, right or wrong > > Reggie > > > > > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:36 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > > > > Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these > > facts out. I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax > > killed the boating industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat > > cost about $1,000 a foot so my 36 foot boat would have cost about > > $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not have to be 100 ft long > > to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say that a tax > > that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was > > only 10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating > > industry. I had no idea. > > > > It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing > > lie and I fell for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it > > until your post. I should have because virtually all things like > > this turn out to be right wing lies when you actually know the > > truth. Shame on me. > > > > So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > > > Allen > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com > > > wrote: > > Jerry, > > > > Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) > > > > Allen > > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Charles, > > On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said > > engineers lost their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats > > became a glut, and sales of new boats tanked. Things haven't > > recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. Ignoring the economy and > > flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, mostly...money, only > > threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current depression, > > except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? > > > > There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra > > rich, three quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate > > still gets his free copies of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every > > month there seems to be a new manufacturer of 50' or larger > > "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" yachts. (Are they the > > source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in the Santa > > Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under > > boats, the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if > > I'm wrong, wasn't the luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a > > tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, like, maybe ten times what it is > > now? Just going by the current price of a candy bar or a small bag > > of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. > > > > Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by > > regulating emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit > > margins, but, he boosted the solar industry, of which I'm a part of, > > altho, most people left the industry when an unemployed movie actor > > and puppet for the oil industry became president after him..I don't > > remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the white > > house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), > > and nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards > > subsidizing big oil. Said ex-movie actor also closed the mental > > hospitals in California and sent the patients to sleep in store > > doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in Los Angeles upon > > visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's > > depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more > > than one way to look at things, especially if you were an over > > worked, stressed out air traffic controller back then. > > Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) > > I'll shut up now. > > Jerry. > > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > From: Charles Strasburger <bo… [at] yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM > > > > > > > > But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. > > Perhaps you don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and > > like gasoline, FRP is an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal > > policies were the root. Not only did the VAT tax hurt, but the cost > > to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched it happen with two > > friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and watched > > Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up > > their manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their > > attempt to minimize their costs and truly know what their true costs > > were.....it was ugly to watch. Charley lasted a little longer by > > building Out Islands for the Charter industry...but it was too late > > at that point. liberal policies kiiled them all.... > > > > Charles > > S/V Boomerang! > > 1980 Cal 39, Mark II > > St Michaels, MD > > > > > > From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> > > To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > > Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > vectormenow@ yahoo.com writes: > > The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine > > industry per se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy > > carter's that virtually killed the industry, and in particular our > > beloved Jenson Marine > > > > What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane > > industry was the luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to > > generate any additional revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people > > don't become rich by being easily separated from their money". I'm > > told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid the luxury tax of a > > new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why the > > powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. > > > > Paul West > > Adventure Kwest > > '80 Cal 39 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Well stated, Mike....nothing more need be said.... Charles S/V Boomerang! 1980 Cal 39, Mark II St Michaels, MD From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 9, 2010 4:50:16 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) Allen, I saw what government regulation and tax and spend did to the marine industry in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Hank Easom closed his yard in Sausalito because he was unwilling to have control of his business taken away from him. The worst words an American can be told " I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." The luxury tax may have finished off a wounded industry but what about all those workers, the "little people" who lost their jobs because government needed more revenue. Today when I look in SF Marina I see many new boats, Beneteau(France) by far and large seems to be the choice for luxury cruisers. X Yachts, (Denmark) CS Yachts(Canada) and the list goes on. " He who governs least, governs best." Thomas Jefferson I don't think you are stupid Allen, there are many sides to every issue and each side has it's value. Did the Obama administration understand what a drilling ban would do to the economy in the gulf? Your government in action or reaction. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 7:47:14 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:54 PM, mike farrell <vectormenow@ yahoo.com> wrote: > Right wing what? lie n. 1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. 2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. Labels are so easy to apply, aren't they. And the truth is hard for some people to acknowledge if their preconceived notions get in the way. But I was talking about boats and the end of a boating myth that I had believed for many years until enlightened by Jerry. So I am acknowledge the truth, and thanking Jerry. I was also acknowledging my stupidity for not recognizing the lie for what it was. I don't know if you believed this lie, Mike, or if you would now acknowledge your mistake if you did as I have just done. Allen My Best, Mike > > > > From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> > >To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 6:17:36 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day (Jerry) > > > > >Seriously, Jerry and others, I want to thank you for bringing these facts out. > I had always been of the impression that the luxury tax killed the boating >industry. I remember a rule of thumb that a boat cost about $1,000 a foot so my >36 foot boat would have cost about $36,000. Now it may be that a boat would not >have to be 100 ft long to have cost $100,000 but I am sure from what you say >that a tax that did not kick in until a boat was over $100,000 and then was only >10% of the amount over $100,000 did not kill the boating industry. I had no >idea. > > > >It is now clear that this is just another example of a right wing lie and I fell >for it. I am embarrassed that I did not recognize it until your post. I should >have because virtually all things like this turn out to be right wing lies when >you actually know the truth. Shame on me. > > >So, thank you for clearing up a lie that I believed for so many years. > > >Allen > > > >On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@ gmail.com> >wrote: > >Jerry, >> >> >>Don't confuse them with the truth. It will only make them mad. :-) >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Gerald Sobel <sobel_solar@ yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Charles, >>>On the West Coast, the decline of aerospace spending meant said engineers lost >>>their jobs and abandoned their boats. Fiberglas boats became a glut, and sales >>>of new boats tanked. Things haven't recovered here, in fact, have gotten worse. >>>Ignoring the economy and flooding the big banks with cheap...for them, >>>mostly...money, only threw gasoline on the fire and resulted in the current >>>depression, except, why are the freeways more jammed with cars than ever? >>> >>>There still seems to be a big market for mega yachts for the ultra rich, three >>>quarter million dollar and up stink pots, and my mate still gets his free copies >>>of Sea magazine in his P.O. Box. Every month there seems to be a new >>>manufacturer of 50' or larger "economical" trawler style "semi-displacement" >>>yachts. (Are they the source of weird rogue waves that appear from nowhere in >>>the Santa Monica Bay?) However, there is little market for 30' and under boats, >>>the ones the middle class could afford. And, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the >>>luxury tax on boats over $100,000, which was a tidy sum in the years '76 to '80, >>>like, maybe ten times what it is now? Just going by the current price of a candy >>>bar or a small bag of potato chips, my official indiction of true inflation. >>> >>>Maybe Carter increased the cost of fiberglas construction by regulating >>>emissions of chemical vapors, and squeezed profit margins, but, he boosted the >>>solar industry, of which I'm a part of, altho, most people left the industry >>>when an unemployed movie actor and puppet for the oil industry became president >>>after him..I don't remember his name...threw Jimmy's solar water heater off the >>>white house (it is currently heating water for a YMCA in the north east), and >>>nixed the solar credits so the money could go towards subsidizing big oil. Said >>>ex-movie actor also closed the mental hospitals in California and sent the >>>patients to sleep in store doorways and eat out of dumpsters (my Dad saw it in >>>Los Angeles upon visiting me in '86 said, even during the depths of the 30's >>>depression, he never saw the likes of it). I guess there are more than one way >>>to look at things, especially if you were an over worked, stressed out air >>>traffic controller back then. >>>Just me .20 (.02 adjusted for inflation) >>>I'll shut up now. >>>Jerry. >>> >>>--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Charles Strasburger <boomerang_cal39@ yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>From: Charles Strasburger <boomerang_cal39@ yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:15 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>But that was simply a small part of the overall issue, Paul. Perhaps you >>>>don't remember the price of gasoline at the time...and like gasoline, FRP is >>>>an oil derivative.. ..carter' s liberal policies were the root. Not only did >>>>the VAT tax hurt, but the cost to manufacture boats went thru the roof. Watched >>>>it happen with two friends in Florida...Charley Morgan and Teddy Irwin, and >>>>watched Watkins and Endeavour, also clients, go out of business. Set up their >>>>manufacturing cost accounting systems years ago, in their attempt to minimize >>>>their costs and truly know what their true costs were.....it was ugly to watch. >>>>Charley lasted a little longer by building Out Islands for the Charter >>>>industry...but it was too late at that point. liberal policies kiiled them >>>>all.... >>>> Charles >>>>S/V Boomerang! >>>>1980 Cal 39, Mark II >>>>St Michaels, MD >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "pwestla@aol. com" <pwestla@aol. com> >>>>To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com >>>>Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:41:42 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Independence Day >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>In a message dated 7/7/2010 10:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vectormenow@ >>>>yahoo.com writes: >>>>The other thing....though it was not unions that killed the marine industry per >>>>se, but similar policies of the new "regime" to jimmy carter's that virtually >>>>killed the industry, and in particular our beloved Jenson Marine >>> >>>What killed the boating industry and a lot of the small plane industry was the >>>luxury tax. My old boss explained its failure to generate any additional >>>revenue perfectly when he said " Rich people don't become rich by being easily >>>separated from their money". I'm told that all "rich" people had to do to avoid >>>the luxury tax of a new boat or plane was to buy one a year old. DOH!!! Why >>>the powers that were couldn't see that one coming is really pretty scary. >>> >>>Paul West >>>Adventure Kwest >>>'80 Cal 39 >>> >>> >>>> >> > > >

One point of correction Mike. CS is owned by Tartan Yachts for the last couple of years now. CS died in the mid 80s. Tartan revived the brand, Rumour has it that CS will emerge as their racing division and Tartan as their luxury cruising line. Friend works there as PM so if I got this wrong.....blame him..:) /ch