Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call

Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, br… [at] stirlinglaw.com writes: Link: _http://www.azcentrahttp://www.azchttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.azcenhttp://wwhttp://www._ (http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html) (via _shareaholic.sha_ (http://shareaholic.com/) )

As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > > Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the > right of way over a ferry. > > Paul > > In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > br… [at] stirlinglaw.com writes: > > > > Link: > http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html(via > shareaholic.com) > > >

Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The ones I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't avoid you with a mile of warning. The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com writes: As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <_p… [at] aol.pwe_ (mailto:pw… [at] aol.com) > wrote: Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _b… [at] stirlinglaw.bru_ (mailto:br… [at] stirlinglaw.com) writes: Link: _http://www.azcentrahttp://www.azchttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.azcenhttp://wwhttp://www._ (http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html) (via _shareaholic.sha_ (http://shareaholic.com/) )

The ones around here carry cars but they are not like the ones we put our motorhome on in Washington. I think our motorhome would fill it. But, the ones in Washington had semi trucks on them. I can see that you would not want to standon against one of those. In SF Bay, I just ignore them and they stay out of my way. On Papoose there is a rule we use to determine if you can get in front of one of the big container ships or oil tankers that come into the bay. It is: "If you can see them, you can't get in front of them." They are really fast and are on you before you know it and they can't stop or turn worth a damn. Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 7:41 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > > Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The > ones I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't > avoid you with a mile of warning. > > The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a > lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. > > Paul > > In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com writes: > > > > As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least > around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, > very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has > to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I > couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I > know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have > done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official > investigation. > > So, what gives them right of way some places? > > Allen > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right >> of way over a ferry. >> >> Paul >> >> In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> br… [at] stirlinglaw.com writes: >> >> >> >> Link: >> http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html(via >> shareaholic.com) >> >> > >

My experience on LIS with these large Ferries is that they have the right of way due to limited maneuverability. Sailboats need to keep clear. That doesn't mean try to make a miracle happen after you have allowed yourself to get into an irrevocable collision situation. If it looks like you are on a collision course you need to act early to avoid a danger. Where I am we have a good bit of barge, tug, and ferry traffic. One learns to stay alert and avoid dangerous situations. I indeed may have the right of way in some of these encounters but I am not going to jeopardize my boat or my well being to press the point. Also, if I am out for a day-sail I am not going to press the point with commercial operators trying to earn a living. I may well press my rights with other pleasure boaters but I am more than happy to yield right of way the working stiffs trying to make a living on the water. I think it is just a question of priorities. Wayne From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 10:41:41 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The ones I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't avoid you with a mile of warning. The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com writes: >As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least >around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, >very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has >to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I >couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know >of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. > It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. > > > >So, what gives them right of way some places? > > >Allen > > >On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pwestla@aol. com> wrote: > > >>Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right >>of way over a ferry. >> >>Paul >> >>In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>bruce@stirlinglaw. com writes: >> >>>Link: >>>http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html >>> (via shareaholic. com) >>> >>> >

Eagle Harbor, on the west edge of Bainbridge Island, has a very narrow passage with shoals on either side. A ferry leaving has to make a tight turn in this narrow area. These ferries are big (460 ft and carry 260 vehicles). Only a fool would purposely challenge them or get in their way. Maybe they quaffed a few too many? Terry On Jul 16, 2010, at 7:41 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The ones I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't avoid you with a mile of warning. > > The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. > > Paul > > In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com writes: > > As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. > > > So, what gives them right of way some places? > > Allen > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > > Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. > > Paul > > In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, br… [at] stirlinglaw.com writes: > > Link: http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html (via shareaholic.com) > > > > > > >

I don't know about everywhere else, but here in the Puget Sound region, Ferry's have right of way. Word has it the idiots were drunk. Rick Lobb Cal 2-29 "Rebecca Shea" Bellingham, WA From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 7:35 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, br… [at] stirlinglaw.com writes: Link: http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferr y-mooned.html (via shareaholic.com <http://shareaholic.com/> )

Yup I can verify that. Got my butt kicked by Sunday Jersey power boaters in the Cape May Canal as well as outside the canal in the Atlantic about a mile off the entrance buoy to the south. Pulling donuts to swing the compass for the new autopilot system at least three powerboats, standard Jersey 3 layer fishing charters came so close to check me out I had to break off. The one that got me however was the fishing trawler with the riggers town that made a B line for me. Nice, really friggen nice. Took 5 hrs to swing the compass but it was a wonderful day on the Atlantic so none of these lads really could piss me off that day. Law of gross tonnage applies everywhere, and to that you could add law of Sunday power boaters, stay away from them..:) Coming back into the canal under power I almost got swamped by all the traffic on both sides resulting in really weird wakes. Everyone was coming in at full throttle. I just pulled over to the side and had a few cigarettes, watched the parade and once things settled down I made my way back to my anchorage. My other beef in Cape May was the 40' sailboat that anchored less then 20 feet off my stern. Here was a serious cruising vessel well outfitted who should have known better. Just because he was outfitted with all chain, he did not consider that I wasn't, which was pretty obvious as I had a bridle attached to my rode. 8 ft depth at mean tide and a 5:1 very limited scope in the mud gives a distance of at least 40 feet of swing. Had I had the standard 7 or 8 ratio on we would have collided in the night on the tidal swing. Anchor alarm was on so I adjusted every few hrs as the winds and tide changed and that's when I noticed his proximity to my vessel. My resolution was simple. I had an 0400 departure to catch the tide in the Delaware so it took me a good ten minutes to start the A-4 (no gas on of course) or until his cabin lights came on..:) I was going to hail him on the VHF but chose not to start an argument. We were all nicely staggered, at least 8 of us in the anchorage next the the USCG station and along came this lad in the middle of the night. He was not well received apparently when I called my friends the next morning from the Delaware side on the cell to find out what had happened. Best regards /ch

We have a lot of freighters, mega-yachts, and monster power boats here. I follow the rule of gross tonnage. Michael s/v Magic, Cal 2-27 Pompano Beach, FL

I just checked into it a bit more. The ferrys I am talking about do not seem to carry cars. They are about 90 feet long and have 1,000 HP. Like I said, I just ignore them and they stay out of my way. Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com>wrote: > > > Eagle Harbor, on the west edge of Bainbridge Island, has a very narrow > passage with shoals on either side. A ferry leaving has to make a tight > turn in this narrow area. These ferries are big (460 ft and carry 260 > vehicles). Only a fool would purposely challenge them or get in their way. > > Maybe they quaffed a few too many? > > Terry > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 7:41 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The ones > I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't avoid > you with a mile of warning. > > The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a > lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. > > Paul > > In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com writes: > > > > As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least > around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, > very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has > to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I > couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I > know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have > done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official > investigation. > > So, what gives them right of way some places? > > Allen > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right >> of way over a ferry. >> >> Paul >> >> In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> br… [at] stirlinglaw.com writes: >> >> >> >> Link: >> http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html(via >> shareaholic.com) >> >> >> > > > > >

In the Patapsco River where every one of my trips starts and finishes, we have considerable commercial traffic. In some situations, we have right of way and others we don't yet I always will do everything in my power to stay away from the working vessels. Growing up sailing with my father, one lesson that always stuck with regards to right of way was "THERE IS SUCH A THING AS BEING DEAD RIGHT." Almost every time I drive or sail, I typically have the opportunity to get into an accident that is technically not my fault, but as the driver or captain it is my first priority to make sure that accidents don't happen and the crew and boat stay safe regardless of right of way. Mike Hofstetter Sails Call 28-2 Baltimore From: Rick Lobb <lr… [at] qwest.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 11:12:27 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call (allen) I don’t know about everywhere else, but here in the Puget Sound region, Ferry’s have right of way. Word has it the idiots were drunk. Rick Lobb Cal 2-29 “Rebecca Shea” Bellingham, WA From:Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 7:35 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pwestla@aol. com> wrote: Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce@stirlinglaw. com writes: >Link: >http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html > (via shareaholic. com)

I had a 47,000 ton, 700' long Cruise ship (Carnival Cruise Lines, on her way to Mexico)come up behind me whilst I was racing Shpritz down wind to San Diego; she had no trouble maneuvering around me. We waved to the passengers as it sped by. Jerry --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 8:32 AM I just checked into it a bit more. The ferrys I am talking about do not seem to carry cars. They are about 90 feet long and have 1,000 HP. Like I said, I just ignore them and they stay out of my way. Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Terry Spencer <tspencer@harbornet. com> wrote: Eagle Harbor, on the west edge of Bainbridge Island, has a very narrow passage with shoals on either side. A ferry leaving has to make a tight turn in this narrow area. These ferries are big (460 ft and carry 260 vehicles). Only a fool would purposely challenge them or get in their way. Maybe they quaffed a few too many? Terry On Jul 16, 2010, at 7:41 AM, pwestla@aol. com wrote: Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The ones I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't avoid you with a mile of warning. The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com writes: As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <pwestla@aol. com> wrote: Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce@stirlinglaw. com writes: Link: http://www.azcentra l.com/offbeat/ articles/ 2010/07/14/ 20100714washingt on-ferry- mooned.html (via shareaholic. com)

Mike - That's a great lesson!! "THERE IS SUCH A THING AS BEING DEAD RIGHT." Great boat name too ;-) Sails Call Speaking of boat names one of my favorites was on a big stinkpotter. The dinghy was named "Original Contract" and the big ass stinkpotter was named "Change Order". The truth always hurts don't it? Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 11:43:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mk… [at] yahoo.com writes: In the Patapsco River where every one of my trips starts and finishes, we have considerable commercial traffic. In some situations, we have right of way and others we don't yet I always will do everything in my power to stay away from the working vessels. Growing up sailing with my father, one lesson that always stuck with regards to right of way was "THERE IS SUCH A THING AS BEING DEAD RIGHT." Almost every time I drive or sail, I typically have the opportunity to get into an accident that is technically not my fault, but as the driver or captain it is my first priority to make sure that accidents don't happen and the crew and boat stay safe regardless of right of way. Mike Hofstetter Sails Call 28-2 Baltimore From: Rick Lobb <lr… [at] qwest.lri> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou C Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 11:12:27 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call (allen) I don’t know about everywhere else, but here in the Puget Sound region, Ferry’s have right of way. Word has it the idiots were drunk. Rick Lobb Cal 2-29 “Rebecca Shea” Bellingham, WA From: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou _ps.com_ (http://ps.com/) [mailto:Cal_ Boats@yahoogroup _s.com_ (http://s.com/) ] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 7:35 AM To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <_pwestla@aol. com_ (mailto:pw… [at] aol.com) > wrote: Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _bruce@stirlinglaw. com_ (mailto:br… [at] stirlinglaw.com) writes: Link: _http://www.azcentrahttp://www.azchttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.azcenhttp://wwhttp://www._ (http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html) (via _shareaholic. com_ (http://shareaholic.com/) )

Jerry - Makes a huge difference if you are going the same way in the Ocean and they are overtaking. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 11:50:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, so… [at] yahoo.com writes: I had a 47,000 ton, 700' long Cruise ship (Carnival Cruise Lines, on her way to Mexico)come up behind me whilst I was racing Shpritz down wind to San Diego; she had no trouble maneuvering around me. We waved to the passengers as it sped by. Jerry --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Allen Edwards <al… [at] allen.edwards@all> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] allen.edwards@all> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrouTo: Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 8:32 AM I just checked into it a bit more. The ferrys I am talking about do not seem to carry cars. They are about 90 feet long and have 1,000 HP. Like I said, I just ignore them and they stay out of my way. Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Terry Spencer <_tspencer@harbornet. com_ (mip://037715a0/mc/compose?to=ts… [at] harbornet.com) > wrote: Eagle Harbor, on the west edge of Bainbridge Island, has a very narrow passage with shoals on either side. A ferry leaving has to make a tight turn in this narrow area. These ferries are big (460 ft and carry 260 vehicles). Only a fool would purposely challenge them or get in their way. Maybe they quaffed a few too many? Terry On Jul 16, 2010, at 7:41 AM, _pwestla@aol. com_ (mip://037715a0/mc/compose?to=pw… [at] aol.com) wrote: Oh I could be wrong, if it was a lightweight maneuverable ferry. The ones I am used to are heavy, deep draft car moving ferries that couldn't avoid you with a mile of warning. The reality though is that sailboats don't have as much right of way as a lot of sailors think. They are pretty far down the list. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 10:35:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com writes: As far as I know, sailboats do have the right of way over a ferry at least around here. The ferry's certainly go around you. They are extremely fast, very maneuverable, and can stop on a dime: all the traits of a boat that has to give way. I always hold my course around a ferry. The reality is, I couldn't get out of their way if I wanted to, they are just too fast. I know of a boat that got cut in half by one. There was nothing he could have done. It was the ferry drivers fault according to the official investigation. So, what gives them right of way some places? Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:09 AM, <_pwestla@aol. com_ (mip://037715a0/mc/compose?to=pw… [at] aol.com) > wrote: Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _bruce@stirlinglaw. com_ (mip://037715a0/mc/compose?to=br… [at] stirlinglaw.com) writes: Link: _http://www.azcentra l.com/offbeat/ articles/ 2010/07/14/ 20100714washingt on-ferry- mooned.html_ (http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html) (via _shareaholic. com_ (http://shareaholic.com/) )

In a message dated 7/16/2010 11:52:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: Yup I can verify that. Got my butt kicked by Sunday Jersey power boaters in the Cape May Canal as well as outside the canal in the Atlantic about a mile off the entrance buoy to the south. Pulling donuts to swing the compass for the new autopilot system at least three powerboats, standard Jersey 3 layer fishing charters came so close to check me out I had to break off. The one that got me however was the fishing trawler with the riggers town that made a B line for me. Nice, really friggen nice. Took 5 hrs to swing the compass but it was a wonderful day on the Atlantic so none of these lads really could piss me off that day. Law of gross tonnage applies everywhere, and to that you could add law of Sunday power boaters, stay away from them..:) Were you under power pulling the donuts? If so you don't have ROW anymore. A fishing boat that is fishing has ROW over a sailboat too. Paul Coming back into the canal under power I almost got swamped by all the traffic on both sides resulting in really weird wakes. Everyone was coming in at full throttle. I just pulled over to the side and had a few cigarettes, watched the parade and once things settled down I made my way back to my anchorage. My other beef in Cape May was the 40' sailboat that anchored less then 20 feet off my stern. Here was a serious cruising vessel well outfitted who should have known better. Just because he was outfitted with all chain, he did not consider that I wasn't, which was pretty obvious as I had a bridle attached to my rode. 8 ft depth at mean tide and a 5:1 very limited scope in the mud gives a distance of at least 40 feet of swing. Had I had the standard 7 or 8 ratio on we would have collided in the night on the tidal swing. Anchor alarm was on so I adjusted every few hrs as the winds and tide changed and that's when I noticed his proximity to my vessel. My resolution was simple. I had an 0400 departure to catch the tide in the Delaware so it took me a good ten minutes to start the A-4 (no gas on of course) or until his cabin lights came on..:) I was going to hail him on the VHF but chose not to start an argument. We were all nicely staggered, at least 8 of us in the anchorage next the the USCG station and along came this lad in the middle of the night. He was not well received apparently when I called my friends the next morning from the Delaware side on the cell to find out what had happened. Best regards /ch

This is one of the 'myths' often quoted by power boaters. A pleasure boat 'fishing' has no row over similar sized or smaller power boat. The vessel needs to be a 'work' boat with gear (nets, trawls or long lines) in the water to get the privileges of a stand on vessel. I need to refresh my memory on the exact order of rights for the various boats. YMMV John From: pw… [at] aol.com Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:51:59 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call In a message dated 7/16/2010 11:52:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: Yup I can verify that. Got my butt kicked by Sunday Jersey power boaters in the Cape May Canal as well as outside the canal in the Atlantic about a mile off the entrance buoy to the south. Pulling donuts to swing the compass for the new autopilot system at least three powerboats, standard Jersey 3 layer fishing charters came so close to check me out I had to break off. The one that got me however was the fishing trawler with the riggers town that made a B line for me. Nice, really friggen nice. Took 5 hrs to swing the compass but it was a wonderful day on the Atlantic so none of these lads really could piss me off that day. Law of gross tonnage applies everywhere, and to that you could add law of Sunday power boaters, stay away from them..:) Were you under power pulling the donuts? If so you don't have ROW anymore. A fishing boat that is fishing has ROW over a sailboat too. Paul Coming back into the canal under power I almost got swamped by all the traffic on both sides resulting in really weird wakes. Everyone was coming in at full throttle. I just pulled over to the side and had a few cigarettes, watched the parade and once things settled down I made my way back to my anchorage. My other beef in Cape May was the 40' sailboat that anchored less then 20 feet off my stern. Here was a serious cruising vessel well outfitted who should have known better. Just because he was outfitted with all chain, he did not consider that I wasn't, which was pretty obvious as I had a bridle attached to my rode. 8 ft depth at mean tide and a 5:1 very limited scope in the mud gives a distance of at least 40 feet of swing. Had I had the standard 7 or 8 ratio on we would have collided in the night on the tidal swing. Anchor alarm was on so I adjusted every few hrs as the winds and tide changed and that's when I noticed his proximity to my vessel. My resolution was simple. I had an 0400 departure to catch the tide in the Delaware so it took me a good ten minutes to start the A-4 (no gas on of course) or until his cabin lights came on..:) I was going to hail him on the VHF but chose not to start an argument. We were all nicely staggered, at least 8 of us in the anchorage next the the USCG station and along came this lad in the middle of the night. He was not well received apparently when I called my friends the next morning from the Delaware side on the cell to find out what had happened. Best regards /ch

They may have had the ROW depending of exactly where the contratemps occured. The approach to the Eagle harbor ferry dock is 1-2nm long and involves a couple of significant turns and once inside the harbor there are a lot of anchored boats. The ferries used for that run are the Jumbo and Jumbo II class, 450ish ft carrying 250ish cars/RV's/semis. Once on approach the ferry would be stand-on due to restricted maneuverability. Once clear of the approach the sailboat would be stand-on and the ferries are usually pretty good about avoiding sailing craft. B II From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 5:09:11 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call Dumbasses (literally and figuratively) probably thought they had the right of way over a ferry. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:05:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce@stirlinglaw. com writes: >Link: >http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2010/07/14/20100714washington-ferry-mooned.html > (via shareaholic. com) > >

Yes I was under power and gave way to everyone. But here's the rub, the 3 fishing charters decided basically, hmmm whats going on over there, lets go take a look, that's all. Poor navigation skills resulted in me having to break my run three time to avoid all three boats from hitting me. I'm sitting a mile away from everyone and they came out for a visit. The trawler was having fun with me.....sitting more then a mile off shore and at least 1/2 mile off the designated shipping lane where he's supposed to be heading out to his fishing grounds he decided to steer at me regardless of my course....I mean from where he leaves the entrance of the canal to where I was sitting is over a mile, and his course B lined me regardless of my heading....sooo...I just gave it some gas and got the heck outta there, not that I can outrun a trawler. On the bino's you could see everyone was smiling on board... Talking to the guys at the docks. that particular Captn makes great sport of chasing down boats and veering off at the last second. What are the rules on overtaking a slower vessel under power. I dont think I reads full throttle and lets sandwich the guy. The main issue here is that it was Sunday, and everyone and there brother, cousins and mudder in law was out driving their boats as it was the first good day to go out. I understand that, as I come from an urban setting. So rather then get P'd off I just got out of the channel and waited till it got quiet. I dont hunt but respect hunters. Cant stand urban hunters however as they shoot at anything. Same situation was going on here. Its was a good day so...and to a degree while annoying a bit of fun once I changed by drawers. I'm not imposing any rights what so ever .After all this was Jersey....not the Chesapeake. Sunday drivers...;) I tend to stay far and away from everyone. Even other fellow cruisers until I observe their sailing patterns and anchoring skills. The Briitt boat from Pool was well seasoned for example. Same for the Canadian vessel from Toronto, so we hooked up and made contact. -- /ch

Correct. I should have clarified that the fishing trawler had the ROW. Paul In a message dated 7/16/2010 1:10:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jr… [at] triad.rr.com writes: This is one of the 'myths' often quoted by power boaters. A pleasure boat 'fishing' has no row over similar sized or smaller power boat. The vessel needs to be a 'work' boat with gear (nets, trawls or long lines) in the water to get the privileges of a stand on vessel. I need to refresh my memory on the exact order of rights for the various boats. YMMV John From: pw… [at] aol.pwes Sender: Cal_Boats@yahoogrouCal_Boa Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:51:59 EDT To: <Cal_Boats@yahoogrouCal_Bo> ReplyTo: Cal_Boats@yahoogrouCal_Boa Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboaters moon ferry after close call In a message dated 7/16/2010 11:52:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chris.herrnberger@In a message date Yup I can verify that. Got my butt kicked by Sunday Jersey power boaters in the Cape May Canal as well as outside the canal in the Atlantic about a mile off the entrance buoy to the south. Pulling donuts to swing the compass for the new autopilot system at least three powerboats, standard Jersey 3 layer fishing charters came so close to check me out I had to break off. The one that got me however was the fishing trawler with the riggers town that made a B line for me. Nice, really friggen nice. Took 5 hrs to swing the compass but it was a wonderful day on the Atlantic so none of these lads really could piss me off that day. Law of gross tonnage applies everywhere, and to that you could add law of Sunday power boaters, stay away from them..:) Were you under power pulling the donuts? If so you don't have ROW anymore. A fishing boat that is fishing has ROW over a sailboat too. Paul Coming back into the canal under power I almost got swamped by all the traffic on both sides resulting in really weird wakes. Everyone was coming in at full throttle. I just pulled over to the side and had a few cigarettes, watched the parade and once things settled down I made my way back to my anchorage. My other beef in Cape May was the 40' sailboat that anchored less then 20 feet off my stern. Here was a serious cruising vessel well outfitted who should have known better. Just because he was outfitted with all chain, he did not consider that I wasn't, which was pretty obvious as I had a bridle attached to my rode. 8 ft depth at mean tide and a 5:1 very limited scope in the mud gives a distance of at least 40 feet of swing. Had I had the standard 7 or 8 ratio on we would have collided in the night on the tidal swing. Anchor alarm was on so I adjusted every few hrs as the winds and tide changed and that's when I noticed his proximity to my vessel. My resolution was simple. I had an 0400 departure to catch the tide in the Delaware so it took me a good ten minutes to start the A-4 (no gas on of course) or until his cabin lights came on..:) I was going to hail him on the VHF but chose not to start an argument. We were all nicely staggered, at least 8 of us in the anchorage next the the USCG station and along came this lad in the middle of the night. He was not well received apparently when I called my friends the next morning from the Delaware side on the cell to find out what had happened. Best regards /ch

Interesting....next time I swing the compass I think its going to be a very quiet backwater bay..rather then the Atlantic. Too much traffic out there...:) /ch

Wayne Gillikin wrote: > > My experience on LIS with these large Ferries is that they have the > right of way due to limited maneuverability. Sailboats need to keep > clear. That doesn't mean try to make a miracle happen after you have > allowed yourself to get into an irrevocable collision situation. If > it looks like you are on a collision course you need to act early to > avoid a danger. > > Where I am we have a good bit of barge, tug, and ferry traffic. One > learns to stay alert and avoid dangerous situations. I indeed may > have the right of way in some of these encounters but I am not going > to jeopardize my boat or my well being to press the point. > > Also, if I am out for a day-sail I am not going to press the point > with commercial operators trying to earn a living. I may well press > my rights with other pleasure boaters but I am more than happy to > yield right of way the working stiffs trying to make a living on the > water. I think it is just a question of priorities. Common sense and the Gross Tonnage Rule (the bigger boat wins) usually coincide. One of our schooner captains teaches, "you don't _have_ the right of way; you _are given_ the right of way." It makes sense to yield to larger vessels or ones that can do you more harm, so long as you have an option. My special gripe is the small-boat sport fishermen who cut across my bow when sailing, when a tiny alteration in their course would take them across the stern instead. My practice is to hold my course for those jerks and let them figure out if their lines are deep enough to go under my keel...or not. In the ferry vs. sailboat example, we sailors are more akin to the sport fishermen that annoy me. We are reasonably maneuverable and usually out there for simple pleasure, not business. We can afford to be generous and safe. Right of way rules are helpful for assigning blame when bad stuff happens but good sense can prevent it from happening. Chris Campbell

pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > > A fishing boat that is fishing has ROW over a sailboat too. > Commercial fishing vessels pulling a trawl, etc. do, but sports fishermen do not. Chris Campbell > > >

This thread made me curious, so I thought I would look up what the Feds (USCG) says the rules are. Interestingly, I do not see any reference to commercial vessels, although many, if not most, would be covered under the definition of "a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver". If anyone wants to read more, it can be found on the USCG website at: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRule&main=main Enjoy, Terry RULE 18 RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN VESSELS Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require: (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: a vessel not under command; a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; a vessel engaged in fishing; a sailing vessel. (b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: a vessel not under command; a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; a vessel engaged in fishing. (c) A vessel engaged in fishing** when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of: a vessel not under command; a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver. (d) Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28. A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition. [Intl] *The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term [Int] "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall [Int] include but not be limited to: A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline; A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations; A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway; A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft; A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations; A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course. **The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability. On Jul 16, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Chris Campbell wrote: > pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> A fishing boat that is fishing has ROW over a sailboat too. >> > > Commercial fishing vessels pulling a trawl, etc. do, but sports fishermen do not. > > Chris Campbell >> >> >> > > >

It is amazing how things become clear when you go to the source. Thanks for the reference. I will continue to ignore the ferrys around here as they are the most maneuverable boats on the bay as far as I can tell. They also obviously expect me to hold my course as they always change theirs to go around me well in advance. Allen On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com>wrote: > > > This thread made me curious, so I thought I would look up what the Feds > (USCG) says the rules are. Interestingly, I do not see any reference to > commercial vessels, although many, if not most, would be covered under the > definition of "a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver". > > If anyone wants to read more, it can be found on the USCG website at: > > http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRule&main=main > > Enjoy, > Terry > > > > RULE 18 > RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN VESSELS > > Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require: > > (a) A power-driven vessel<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3b_PDV> > underway <http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3hi_underway> shall > keep out of the way of: > > 1. a vessel not under command<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3f_NOC> > ; > 2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3g_RAM> > ; > 3. a vessel engaged in fishing; > 4. a sailing vessel. > > (b) A sailing vessel<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3c_sail_vsl> underway > shall keep out of the way of: > > 1. a vessel not under command; > 2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; > 3. a vessel engaged in fishing. > > (c) A vessel engaged in fishing<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3d_fishing>** when > underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of: > > 1. a vessel not under command; > 2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver. > > *(d) * > > 1. *Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel > restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the > case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained > by her draft <http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=def3h_CBD>, > exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.* > 2. *A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular > caution having full regard to her special condition. *[Intl] > > > > > > 1. *The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a > vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to > maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of > the way of another vessel. *The term* [Int] "vessels restricted in > their ability to maneuver" *shall* [Int] include but not be limited to: > 1. A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational > mark, submarine cable or pipeline; > 2. A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations; > 3. A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, > provisions or cargo while underway; > 4. A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft; > 5. A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations; > 6. A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts > the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course. > > > > > **The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, > lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, > but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing > apparatus which do not restrict manageability. > > > 1. > > > > > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > > pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > A fishing boat that is fishing has ROW over a sailboat too. > > > Commercial fishing vessels pulling a trawl, etc. do, but sports fishermen > do not. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > >