Lifelines

Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be appropriate. Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, material? Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. Allen

We're using it for topping lift on our 29 and it's a year old showing no signs of age.. Our rigger Jay Butler installed it. The WM catalog from08 has two kinds, Amsteel Dyneema single braid, and amsteel 78 dyneema single braid. along side the sizes is breaking strength, 5/16 of first has 10,500 lb ($2.91ft) and the 78 version says 12,300 ($4.19). But I remember something about uncoated wire being the rule for racing offshore. we had just put on vinyl coated so until we need them, we'll wait. 1/4 inch wire in vinyl rates at 6,100 lbs. Amsteel feels better on your hands but it's so skinny.Maybe somebody knows the real rules. And I passed on info to Ken of L-36 (he is the current owner of Nomad).Helen From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 6:12:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be appropriate. Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, material? Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. Allen

I've seen lifelines fail in the warm waters off San Diego. In those benign conditions, it was simply an inconvenience during a race. The mid-life line failed as the crew was leaning against it. You should have seen their faces as they were propelled overboard. Almost comical. In San Francisco, the outcome might not be the same. Amsteel is so light compared with ss that weight should not an issue. I'd pick a size that feels comfortable in your hand. My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a strength perspective. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards<mailto:al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 6:12 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be appropriate. Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, material? Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. Allen

Fin Beven wrote: > > > > > My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a > strength perspective. Seems to me that if we regard lifelines and the stanchions that support them as a system, then cotton clothesline would almost be overkill from the strength perspective. The stanchion is a big lever operating on the tiny base that bolts it to the deck. If it's strong tubing, then the base or the deck fails under stress. If it's flimsy tubing, it bends. My other boat has sturdy-looking bronze stanchion bases and thick-walled tubing. I'm not sure which would yield first. But even if they are made of good materials, and have proper backing plates (yes), the bolt pattern is still tiny compared with that big lever operating on it. The good thing, of course, is that most of us are lucky enough that we never stress this system to failure and therefore never know whether it's all looks and no action. Chris Campbell >

This is where metal hulled boats have a big advantage. Just weld the stanchion base to to the deck, no fasteners needed. Also no deck flexing or leaks. MUCHO strong ! Joe On 7/30/2010 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > Fin Beven wrote: >> >> >> My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a >> strength perspective. > > Seems to me that if we regard lifelines and the stanchions that > support them as a system, then cotton clothesline would almost be > overkill from the strength perspective. The stanchion is a big lever > operating on the tiny base that bolts it to the deck. If it's strong > tubing, then the base or the deck fails under stress. If it's flimsy > tubing, it bends. > > My other boat has sturdy-looking bronze stanchion bases and > thick-walled tubing. I'm not sure which would yield first. But even > if they are made of good materials, and have proper backing plates > (yes), the bolt pattern is still tiny compared with that big lever > operating on it. > > The good thing, of course, is that most of us are lucky enough that we > never stress this system to failure and therefore never know whether > it's all looks and no action. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date: 07/30/10 02:34:00 > > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

When the USS Missouri BB63 came to SF bay in 1991 after Desert Storm. I was aboard leaning over massive triple lifelines. A Master Chief said to me" Don't lean on the lifelines, they might break." He was not joking. It's all so relative, Isn't it? My Best, Mike F From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:08:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines This is where metal hulled boats have a big advantage. Just weld the stanchion base to to the deck, no fasteners needed. Also no deck flexing or leaks. MUCHO strong ! Joe On 7/30/2010 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > >Fin Beven wrote: > >> >> >> >>My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a strength >>perspective. Seems to me that if we regard lifelines and the stanchions that support them as a system, then cotton clothesline would almost be overkill from the strength perspective. The stanchion is a big lever operating on the tiny base that bolts it to the deck. If it's strong tubing, then the base or the deck fails under stress. If it's flimsy tubing, it bends. My other boat has sturdy-looking bronze stanchion bases and thick-walled tubing. I'm not sure which would yield first. But even if they are made of good materials, and have proper backing plates (yes), the bolt pattern is still tiny compared with that big lever operating on it. The good thing, of course, is that most of us are lucky enough that we never stress this system to failure and therefore never know whether it's all looks and no action. Chris Campbell > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date: 07/30/10 02:34:00 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184

So, is anyone using uncoated wire and do you like it. Any disadvantages. I am assuming 1x19 wire. Allen On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > When the USS Missouri BB63 came to SF bay in 1991 after Desert Storm. I > was aboard leaning over massive triple lifelines. A Master Chief said to > me" Don't lean on the lifelines, they might break." He was not joking. > It's all so relative, Isn't it? > My Best, Mike F > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Fri, July 30, 2010 7:08:00 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines > > > > This is where metal hulled boats have a big advantage. Just weld the > stanchion base to to the deck, no fasteners needed. Also no deck flexing or > leaks. MUCHO strong ! > > Joe > > On 7/30/2010 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > > Fin Beven wrote: > > > > > > My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a strength > perspective. > > > Seems to me that if we regard lifelines and the stanchions that support > them as a system, then cotton clothesline would almost be overkill from the > strength perspective. The stanchion is a big lever operating on the tiny > base that bolts it to the deck. If it's strong tubing, then the base or the > deck fails under stress. If it's flimsy tubing, it bends. > > My other boat has sturdy-looking bronze stanchion bases and thick-walled > tubing. I'm not sure which would yield first. But even if they are made of > good materials, and have proper backing plates (yes), the bolt pattern is > still tiny compared with that big lever operating on it. > > The good thing, of course, is that most of us are lucky enough that we > never stress this system to failure and therefore never know whether it's > all looks and no action. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date: 07/30/10 02:34:00 > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > >

yes. yes. no. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:39:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines So, is anyone using uncoated wire and do you like it. Any disadvantages. I am assuming 1x19 wire. Allen On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: When the USS Missouri BB63 came to SF bay in 1991 after Desert Storm. I was aboard leaning over massive triple lifelines. A Master Chief said to me" Don't lean on the lifelines, they might break." He was not joking. It's all so relative, Isn't it? My Best, Mike F From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:08:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines This is where metal hulled boats have a big advantage. Just weld the stanchion base to to the deck, no fasteners needed. Also no deck flexing or leaks. MUCHO strong ! Joe On 7/30/2010 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: Fin Beven wrote: My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a strength perspective. Seems to me that if we regard lifelines and the stanchions that support them as a system, then cotton clothesline would almost be overkill from the strength perspective. The stanchion is a big lever operating on the tiny base that bolts it to the deck. If it's strong tubing, then the base or the deck fails under stress. If it's flimsy tubing, it bends. My other boat has sturdy-looking bronze stanchion bases and thick-walled tubing. I'm not sure which would yield first. But even if they are made of good materials, and have proper backing plates (yes), the bolt pattern is still tiny compared with that big lever operating on it. The good thing, of course, is that most of us are lucky enough that we never stress this system to failure and therefore never know whether it's all looks and no action. Chris Campbell No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date: 07/30/10 02:34:00 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184

Allen We use uncoated 1/4 wire on Magic. Yes, I/we like it. Disadvantages: none that I know of. Michael From: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 4:41:01 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines yes. yes. no. Reggie To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com From: allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:39:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines So, is anyone using uncoated wire and do you like it. Any disadvantages. I am assuming 1x19 wire. Allen

The only disadvantage I can see is that failure will most likely come from the connection between the wire and the swage, an area that is nearly impossible to inspect. You really never know what is going on inside that barrel. Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards<mailto:al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines So, is anyone using uncoated wire and do you like it. Any disadvantages. I am assuming 1x19 wire. Allen On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: When the USS Missouri BB63 came to SF bay in 1991 after Desert Storm. I was aboard leaning over massive triple lifelines. A Master Chief said to me" Don't lean on the lifelines, they might break." He was not joking. It's all so relative, Isn't it? My Best, Mike F ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com<mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:08:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines This is where metal hulled boats have a big advantage. Just weld the stanchion base to to the deck, no fasteners needed. Also no deck flexing or leaks. MUCHO strong ! Joe On 7/30/2010 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: Fin Beven wrote: My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a strength perspective. Seems to me that if we regard lifelines and the stanchions that support them as a system, then cotton clothesline would almost be overkill from the strength perspective. The stanchion is a big lever operating on the tiny base that bolts it to the deck. If it's strong tubing, then the base or the deck fails under stress. If it's flimsy tubing, it bends. My other boat has sturdy-looking bronze stanchion bases and thick-walled tubing. I'm not sure which would yield first. But even if they are made of good materials, and have proper backing plates (yes), the bolt pattern is still tiny compared with that big lever operating on it. The good thing, of course, is that most of us are lucky enough that we never stress this system to failure and therefore never know whether it's all looks and no action. Chris Campbell No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date: 07/30/10 02:34:00 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com<http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> phone & fax (860) 666-2184

The ISAF Equip requirements for lifelines in Cat 4 offshore racing show the option of UNCOATED wire or Dyneema Amsteel Grade SR 75/78. Coated lifelines can cause you to be disqualified from a race if inspected. It's very simple, you can not see the rust under the coating. For Dyneema thinkness it depends on your boat size in length. We changed out our coated lines to Dyneema this year - went with 5/32. The cost is much less than going with wire because the attaching hardware is not required, you can just knot it to your bow / stern. We do use a pelican hook at the stern to make getting on and off the boat easier. Problem is the initial stretch. First race out we had crew tug hard and they seemed to stretch alot. We have already retied them three times this year, hopefully they will stay taught. Second problem will be to watch the UV factor over the years. In Michigan with the boat in only six months we should get hopefully 5 years our of them, and will take them off during winter hull out. Lastly, have to watch for chaf at the stanctions (three inch plastic tube) solves the problem. Go to the Amsteel web site for other info. Hope this info helps, Nick "JADE" Lake St Clair, MI From: "Fin Beven" <fi… [at] msn.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:37:14 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines I've seen lifelines fail in the warm waters off San Diego. In those benign conditions, it was simply an inconvenience during a race. The mid-life line failed as the crew was leaning against it. You should have seen their faces as they were propelled overboard. Almost comical. In San Francisco, the outcome might not be the same. Amsteel is so light compared with ss that weight should not an issue. I'd pick a size that feels comfortable in your hand. My pick would be 1/4", but it would definitely be over-kill from a strength perspective. Fin. From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 6:12 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be appropriate. Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, material? Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. Allen

I am just now in the process of using 1/4 inch from bow pulpit to the stancheon at the cockpit and then 5/16 from there to pelican hooks at the stern pulpit. They are overkill as far as strength but they are more comfortable to lean against. 1.99/foot for 5/16 Amsteel. I took a rigging class from Brion Toss and learned to put an eye splice in single braid but I am starting to think that perhaps one end should be knotted in order to 1. take out the stretch; and 2. to remove the lines at times for UV protection. If an anchor knot or bowline decreases the line strength by 60% you can still lift an elephant with it. Bob Connell "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 Shilshole Bay, WA From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 6:12:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be appropriate. Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, material? Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. Allen

I have seen people make the Amsteel lifelines about 5 inches short and then run some thin Dacron line around the Amsteel and the pulpit maybe a dozen times as the equivalent of a turnbuckle. You could always use a turnbuckle. Allen On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Bob Connell <jo… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > I am just now in the process of using 1/4 inch from bow pulpit to the > stancheon at the cockpit and then 5/16 from there to pelican hooks at the > stern pulpit. They are overkill as far as strength but they are more > comfortable to lean against. 1.99/foot for 5/16 Amsteel. I took a rigging > class from Brion Toss and learned to put an eye splice in single braid but I > am starting to think that perhaps one end should be knotted in order to 1. > take out the stretch; and 2. to remove the lines at times for UV > protection. If an anchor knot or bowline decreases the line strength by 60% > you can still lift an elephant with it. > > Bob Connell > "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 > Shilshole Bay, WA > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, July 29, 2010 6:12:30 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Lifelines > > > > Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old > would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on > my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am > leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be > appropriate. > > Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, > material? > > Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. > > Allen > > > > >

I also replaced my lifelines and stanchions on Out Patient. The stock configuration was only thru bolted and backed with washers. Someone fell into the lifeline and it pulled the washers up into the plywood core from below. I bought double lifeline stanchions and used backing plates this time. I replaced the covered stainless with Dyneema, however I up sized the 1/8 requirement to 3/8 on the upper and 5/16 on the lower my greastest fear was actually falling on something that thin and it going right thru me. On the upper I made eyes and used shackles at the at the stern-pit and forward I used turnbuckles. Everything was stitched and lockstitch. On the lower lifeline I spliced an eye that went around the base of the bow pit, then spliced an eye at the rear and used a shackle, I then made a lashing to take up the slack and adjust the tension in the lifelines. For the comfort of the crew I bought life line cushions for when we need to hike out hard. My helmsman is either 73 or my son 14, a whopping 140, so I trim and when it is absolutely a have-to-case I am the one hanging my big ole butt over the sides. At 210 lbs I am staying on the boat. I am also out pointing a Merit 25, a Moore 24 and the Catalina 27's I am racing against. The Ranger 26 Runaway, was particularly upset when they tried to take us up and we out pointed them and they had more crew on the rail. Or as SK said, "we were out pointing Out Patient until Randy got on the rail and hiked out, he outpointed us by 5 degrees", enough to send them off to leeward. We corrected out over them by a hour in a 47 mile race. Anyway, Dyneema has to be spliced, it cannot be tied, it is way to slippery. When I raced on the Olson 30 and we started using superbraids, we tied them and every race the slippage was so bad, we had to retie the lifelines after every race, and on an Olson 30, you have 5 people hiking out until you see if the keel is free of kelp. That is why I got cushions for my lifelines, the Olson thought it was to much weight for comfort. Randy CAL 2-29 Out Patient Channel Islands Ca From: Bob Connell <jo… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 10:52:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines I am just now in the process of using 1/4 inch from bow pulpit to the stancheon at the cockpit and then 5/16 from there to pelican hooks at the stern pulpit. They are overkill as far as strength but they are more comfortable to lean against. 1.99/foot for 5/16 Amsteel. I took a rigging class from Brion Toss and learned to put an eye splice in single braid but I am starting to think that perhaps one end should be knotted in order to 1. take out the stretch; and 2. to remove the lines at times for UV protection. If an anchor knot or bowline decreases the line strength by 60% you can still lift an elephant with it. Bob Connell "Jollygood!" , Cal 31, #59 Shilshole Bay, WA From: Allen Edwards <allen.edwards@ PaloAltoPhoto. com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 6:12:30 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Lifelines Not surprising I guess that lifelines that are probably 40 to 50 years old would fail my inspection so I am in the market to replace the lifelines on my L-36. I have thought about Amsteel and maybe I should do that but I am leaning to uncoated wire. If I did go with Amsteel, what size would be appropriate. Anyone what to chime in on a recommendation, size, where to get it, material? Lately all I am doing is racing the boat with an occasional family sail. Allen