Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (Chris)

< Why? Because as a society we don't think kids at that age have had sufficient experience to make those kinds of commitments. > Makes you wonder why the drinking age is 21 but you can enlist in the service at 18 and go kill people. <After Laura who will be next and at what age? I shudder to think. > Next news flash: 18 month old kid sets sail around the world in "Moses Basket" <Do one of these kids have to get killed before this mindless competition stops? > Probably. < I keep wondering where the adults are.> Cheerleading and hoping to cash in. Paul I, like many at that age, was lucky to be able to find my head with both hands let alone sail across an ocean. Regards, Wayne

Fellow sailors, I think what is wrong with American society is that we've let so called "social scientists" dictate what young people can and cannot do. They want to squeeze everyone into a Universal Average. But geniuses, such as Mozart, didn't let such things get in the way when they composed their first symphonies, did they? I remember when I was quite young, having dreams of building a simple boat, mounting an outboard on the back, and setting forth to explore the upper reaches of the Hudson River. And remember, Huckleberry Finn? Why do we attempt to judge others' abilities with reference exclusively to our own? Would we have ever reached the Moon? I look back at what I did as a very young child; nowadays, most parents wouldn't let children that young out of the house alone, let alone travel off that far by themselves, but I did it every day, and I feel blessed that my folks gave me that much freedom. When I see parents lined up in long lines in cars outside schools at 3PM, looking like the Airport terminals at Los Angeles International, it makes me sick. At that age, we all walked or rode our bicycles to school, instead of feeding societal paranoia and getting a head start on heart disease and obesity from lack of excercise. I can't remember a single kid who had their parents shuttle them to and from school, and I'm sure there were just as many perverts on the lose trying to snatch kids. Just my twenty cents. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/4/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (Chris) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 9:57 AM < Why? Because as a society we don't think kids at that age have had sufficient experience to make those kinds of commitments. > Makes you wonder why the drinking age is 21 but you can enlist in the service at 18 and go kill people. <After Laura who will be next and at what age? I shudder to think. > Next news flash: 18 month old kid sets sail around the world in "Moses Basket" <Do one of these kids have to get killed before this mindless competition stops? > Probably. < I keep wondering where the adults are.> Cheerleading and hoping to cash in. Paul I, like many at that age, was lucky to be able to find my head with both hands let alone sail across an ocean. Regards, Wayne

every kids different, I mean robin graham (is that right) left in a lapworth 24 back in the 60's.....nowadays these kids have modern boats, furling, electronics, staff support, websites, blogs, i mean, there not really alone if you think about it.....at least we can watch em die..... To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: so… [at] yahoo.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:24:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Fellow sailors, I think what is wrong with American society is that we've let so called "social scientists" dictate what young people can and cannot do. They want to squeeze everyone into a Universal Average. But geniuses, such as Mozart, didn't let such things get in the way when they composed their first symphonies, did they? I remember when I was quite young, having dreams of building a simple boat, mounting an outboard on the back, and setting forth to explore the upper reaches of the Hudson River. And remember, Huckleberry Finn? Why do we attempt to judge others' abilities with reference exclusively to our own? Would we have ever reached the Moon? I look back at what I did as a very young child; nowadays, most parents wouldn't let children that young out of the house alone, let alone travel off that far by themselves, but I did it every day, and I feel blessed that my folks gave me that much freedom. When I see parents lined up in long lines in cars outside schools at 3PM, looking like the Airport terminals at Los Angeles International, it makes me sick. At that age, we all walked or rode our bicycles to school, instead of feeding societal paranoia and getting a head start on heart disease and obesity from lack of excercise. I can't remember a single kid who had their parents shuttle them to and from school, and I'm sure there were just as many perverts on the lose trying to snatch kids. Just my twenty cents. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/4/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (Chris) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 9:57 AM < Why? Because as a society we don't think kids at that age have had sufficient experience to make those kinds of commitments. > Makes you wonder why the drinking age is 21 but you can enlist in the service at 18 and go kill people. <After Laura who will be next and at what age? I shudder to think. > Next news flash: 18 month old kid sets sail around the world in "Moses Basket" <Do one of these kids have to get killed before this mindless competition stops? > Probably. < I keep wondering where the adults are.> Cheerleading and hoping to cash in. Paul I, like many at that age, was lucky to be able to find my head with both hands let alone sail across an ocean. Regards, Wayne

At 12 years old, I trekked 9 days across the Sierras, through Ranger Pass and on to summit Mt. Whitney, the highest mountain in the continental USA. If you have a belief in Darwin’s Theory, then you might say I was improving the gene pool if I succeeded or failed. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:24 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Fellow sailors, I think what is wrong with American society is that we've let so called "social scientists" dictate what young people can and cannot do. They want to squeeze everyone into a Universal Average. But geniuses, such as Mozart, didn't let such things get in the way when they composed their first symphonies, did they? I remember when I was quite young, having dreams of building a simple boat, mounting an outboard on the back, and setting forth to explore the upper reaches of the Hudson River. And remember, Huckleberry Finn? Why do we attempt to judge others' abilities with reference exclusively to our own? Would we have ever reached the Moon? I look back at what I did as a very young child; nowadays, most parents wouldn't let children that young out of the house alone, let alone travel off that far by themselves, but I did it every day, and I feel blessed that my folks gave me that much freedom. When I see parents lined up in long lines in cars outside schools at 3PM, looking like the Airport terminals at Los Angeles International, it makes me sick. At that age, we all walked or rode our bicycles to school, instead of feeding societal paranoia and getting a head start on heart disease and obesity from lack of excercise. I can't remember a single kid who had their parents shuttle them to and from school, and I'm sure there were just as many perverts on the lose trying to snatch kids. Just my twenty cents. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/4/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (Chris) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 9:57 AM < Why? Because as a society we don't think kids at that age have had sufficient experience to make those kinds of commitments. > Makes you wonder why the drinking age is 21 but you can enlist in the service at 18 and go kill people. <After Laura who will be next and at what age? I shudder to think. > Next news flash: 18 month old kid sets sail around the world in "Moses Basket" <Do one of these kids have to get killed before this mindless competition stops? > Probably. < I keep wondering where the adults are.> Cheerleading and hoping to cash in. Paul I, like many at that age, was lucky to be able to find my head with both hands let alone sail across an ocean. Regards, Wayne

On this subject I could not agree with you more. The freedoms I enjoyed as a kid today would be considered libelous or criminal in some cases. Time have changed and conformity is the norm so kids being kids rebel and step out in all kinds of ways treading finely on a line that moves all the time dependant on where you live. Its OK to let your kid at 10 drive the tractor on the farm but you cannot drive a car on a road. My cousins are farmers and what a blast I had each summer being sent to the farm to get out of the city. I thank my parents everyday for it. The problem that kids now face is that if they step over the line which is very gray then they are subject to penalties we never even dreamed of. The worst I ever did was start a fire on the "mountain" as we called it as a kid. My parents told me not to go, well it started a bush fire and my 20 mates and I spend hrs trying to put it out till the fire department arrived and put it out. When we came home we were covered in soot, and explained that we were playing hockey like always. My mother looked at me and simply said, your dad will deal with this when he gets home from work....to your room. The six hrs of waiting were more punishment then he handed out. You did not embarrass your parents in those years. Now what interesting is that sailing has given me the freedom and Independence that I enjoyed as a youth. Very few barriers and you can always find a crowd of people that you are comfortable with ranging from one extreme to the other. The most interesting part is when you tell people that you are planning a long voyage or possibly living on the boat for a while, they either line up behind you and encourage you all the way, or alternatively go out of their way to tell you how crazy you are and irresponsible. Many have written about this so its not new. What surprise me was the polarization of opinions and the strength of conviction in either camp. I'm starting to understand why people like Roger invested their time with kids and sailing....there is a sense of Independence, confidence and self reliance in sailing that is limited today in sources where kids can find it, without crossing that grey fuzzy line. My best /ch

Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > > I remember when I was quite young, having dreams of building a simple > boat, mounting an outboard on the back, and setting forth to explore > the upper reaches of the Hudson River. > The Hudson River is not the Atlantic, Pacific, or Southern ocean. > > > Why do we attempt to judge others' abilities with reference > exclusively to our own? Would we have ever reached the Moon? > It wasn't 14 year old kids planning the moon mission. > > I look back at what I did as a very young child; nowadays, most > parents wouldn't let children that young out of the house alone, let > alone travel off that far by themselves, but I did it every day, and I > feel blessed that my folks gave me that much freedom. > When I see parents lined up in long lines in cars outside schools at > 3PM, looking like the Airport terminals at Los Angeles International, > it makes me sick. At that age, we all walked or rode our bicycles to > school, instead of feeding societal paranoia and getting a head start > on heart disease and obesity from lack of excercise. > I agree here. We Americans do a completely lousy job of appraising relative risks. We get all panicked over remote (but horrible) possibilities, and we ignore real and imminent threats. Because of national coverage by news media, we are all aware of the abduction or molestation of one child on the other side of the country, and we assume that predators are lurking everywhere (and that we can't sensitize kids to avoidance of predators). But it seems to me that sailing alone around the world on a large and complex boat is several orders of magnitude riskier than walking to school. Chris Campbell who walked to school and rides his bike to work > >

Mark me down with as one not willing to judge others and not willing to say who is too young and who is not. While I don't think 14 is old enough for such a journey, I am equally sure I am wrong in this case as it has been so closely supervised. When I was 14 or 15 I checked my mom into a mental hospital and lived alone. Many people thought this not such a good idea. I survived. And no jokes about that explaining a lot. Sailing content: The beer can race last evening saw Papoose second across the line behind the C&C-41 by about a minute. Behind me were the two T-10's, a Catalina 400, and everyone else. We corrected 2 1/2 minutes over the second place boat, the T-10 just behind us over the line. The C&C-41 owes us about 8 minutes so we easily corrected over them. I think that is eight 1st, two 2nd, and a DNS. So far so good. We have beaten every boat out there uncorrected just not all in the same race. That is our goal. We did a number of things wrong, particularly the roundings and we took the free flying 150 down too early again (the crew is just too fast). Had we not done those things we would have been first across the line. Next week? Allen On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 11:14 AM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > On this subject I could not agree with you more. The freedoms I enjoyed as > a kid today would be considered libelous or criminal in some cases. Time > have changed and conformity is the norm so kids being kids rebel and step > out in all kinds of ways treading finely on a line that moves all the time > dependant on where you live. Its OK to let your kid at 10 drive the tractor > on the farm but you cannot drive a car on a road. My cousins are farmers and > what a blast I had each summer being sent to the farm to get out of the > city. I thank my parents everyday for it. The problem that kids now face is > that if they step over the line which is very gray then they are subject to > penalties we never even dreamed of. The worst I ever did was start a fire on > the "mountain" as we called it as a kid. My parents told me not to go, well > it started a bush fire and my 20 mates and I spend hrs trying to put it out > till the fire department arrived and put it out. When we came home we were > covered in soot, and explained that we were playing hockey like always. My > mother looked at me and simply said, your dad will deal with this when he > gets home from work....to your room. The six hrs of waiting were more > punishment then he handed out. You did not embarrass your parents in those > years. > > Now what interesting is that sailing has given me the freedom and > Independence that I enjoyed as a youth. Very few barriers and you can always > find a crowd of people that you are comfortable with ranging from one > extreme to the other. The most interesting part is when you tell people that > you are planning a long voyage or possibly living on the boat for a while, > they either line up behind you and encourage you all the way, or > alternatively go out of their way to tell you how crazy you are and > irresponsible. Many have written about this so its not new. What surprise me > was the polarization of opinions and the strength of conviction in either > camp. I'm starting to understand why people like Roger invested their time > with kids and sailing....there is a sense of Independence, confidence and > self reliance in sailing that is limited today in sources where kids can > find it, without crossing that grey fuzzy line. > > My best > > /ch > > >

Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we (you and me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone else in their right mind?

We don't need someone else to tell us what we already know. Allen On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we (you > and me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone else in > their right mind? > > > > >

ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > > Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we > (you and me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone > else in their right mind? > That's allowed by law in Michigan. If a person has mental infirmities that cause him/her to behave in ways that endanger him/her self, the person can be subjected to a guardianship. I had a case involving an older guy who was in a nursing home because his wife could no longer control him. He was determined to have impaired "higher executive powers," which meant impaired judgment and ability to make sound decisions. He'd done some dumb things that got him into physical danger. The behavior was consistent with the diagnosis (and inconsistent with his prior behavior). He seemed quite normal to me but a respected geriatric evaluation center identified these impairments. But--and this is a big "but"--it is not common, and it requires adjudication after hearings by a judge. They are individualized determinations. In making private judgments about things, I feel much better about assuming a 14 year old lacks both the physical and mental capacities to sail around the world alone than to make the same determination about an old guy, if the question about him is whether his previous experience and knowledge remains effective. Chichester set sail after a cancer diagnosis, as I recall, and didn't he actually have to abandon his last voyage when he just couldn't go on? I'm inclined to leave decisions of that kind in the individual who has a wealth of knowledge to evaluate risks. It might be different if some fellow who had spent his whole life as a store clerk in a small Iowa town suddenly decided to sell everything and buy a boat to sail around the world, with no previous experience. That would look much more like a delusion. I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and be sailing at 100. Chris Campbell closer to 100 than to 14 > > > >

But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? Allen On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Chris Campbell < cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: > > > ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > > > Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we (you > and me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone else in > their right mind? > > > That's allowed by law in Michigan. If a person has mental infirmities that > cause him/her to behave in ways that endanger him/her self, the person can > be subjected to a guardianship. I had a case involving an older guy who was > in a nursing home because his wife could no longer control him. He was > determined to have impaired "higher executive powers," which meant impaired > judgment and ability to make sound decisions. He'd done some dumb things > that got him into physical danger. The behavior was consistent with the > diagnosis (and inconsistent with his prior behavior). He seemed quite normal > to me but a respected geriatric evaluation center identified these > impairments. > > But--and this is a big "but"--it is not common, and it requires > adjudication after hearings by a judge. They are individualized > determinations. > > In making private judgments about things, I feel much better about assuming > a 14 year old lacks both the physical and mental capacities to sail around > the world alone than to make the same determination about an old guy, if the > question about him is whether his previous experience and knowledge remains > effective. Chichester set sail after a cancer diagnosis, as I recall, and > didn't he actually have to abandon his last voyage when he just couldn't go > on? I'm inclined to leave decisions of that kind in the individual who has > a wealth of knowledge to evaluate risks. It might be different if some > fellow who had spent his whole life as a store clerk in a small Iowa town > suddenly decided to sell everything and buy a boat to sail around the world, > with no previous experience. That would look much more like a delusion. > > I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs > danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a > quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational > 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a > big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational > than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > > And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example > and be sailing at 100. > > Chris Campbell > closer to 100 than to 14 > > > > > >

I concur with both of you! My Best, Mike From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 11:37:47 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Gerald Sobel wrote: > >I remember when I was quite young, having dreams of building a simple boat, >mounting an outboard on the back, and setting forth to explore the upper reaches >of the Hudson River. > The Hudson River is not the Atlantic, Pacific, or Southern ocean. >Why do we attempt to judge others' abilities with reference exclusively to our >own? Would we have ever reached the Moon? > It wasn't 14 year old kids planning the moon mission. I look back at what I did as a very young child; nowadays, most parents wouldn't let children that young out of the house alone, let alone travel off that far by themselves, but I did it every day, and I feel blessed that my folks gave me that much freedom. >When I see parents lined up in long lines in cars outside schools at 3PM, >looking like the Airport terminals at Los Angeles International, it makes me >sick. At that age, we all walked or rode our bicycles to school, instead of >feeding societal paranoia and getting a head start on heart disease and obesity >from lack of excercise. > I agree here. We Americans do a completely lousy job of appraising relative risks. We get all panicked over remote (but horrible) possibilities, and we ignore real and imminent threats. Because of national coverage by news media, we are all aware of the abduction or molestation of one child on the other side of the country, and we assume that predators are lurking everywhere (and that we can't sensitize kids to avoidance of predators). But it seems to me that sailing alone around the world on a large and complex boat is several orders of magnitude riskier than walking to school. Chris Campbell who walked to school and rides his bike to work >

My daughter Delia Singlehanded Phyllis Swift SC 27 #103 in Richmond inner harbor. I say no 14 year old should face the Southern Ocean alone. I don't know any father with blue water experience who would allow this. Mother either. My Best, Mike ps. This is the Netherlands justice system that signed off on this issue. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 1:59:20 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? Allen On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: >ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > >>Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we (you and >>me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone else in their right >>mind? That's allowed by law in Michigan. If a person has mental infirmities that cause him/her to behave in ways that endanger him/her self, the person can be subjected to a guardianship. I had a case involving an older guy who was in a nursing home because his wife could no longer control him. He was determined to have impaired "higher executive powers," which meant impaired judgment and ability to make sound decisions. He'd done some dumb things that got him into physical danger. The behavior was consistent with the diagnosis (and inconsistent with his prior behavior). He seemed quite normal to me but a respected geriatric evaluation center identified these impairments. > >But--and this is a big "but"--it is not common, and it requires adjudication >after hearings by a judge. They are individualized determinations. > > >In making private judgments about things, I feel much better about assuming a 14 >year old lacks both the physical and mental capacities to sail around the world >alone than to make the same determination about an old guy, if the question >about him is whether his previous experience and knowledge remains effective. >Chichester set sail after a cancer diagnosis, as I recall, and didn't he >actually have to abandon his last voyage when he just couldn't go on? I'm >inclined to leave decisions of that kind in the individual who has a wealth of >knowledge to evaluate risks. It might be different if some fellow who had spent >his whole life as a store clerk in a small Iowa town suddenly decided to sell >everything and buy a boat to sail around the world, with no previous >experience. That would look much more like a delusion. > > >I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger >versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a >quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational >80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big >trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a >14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > > >And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and >be sailing at 100. > > >Chris Campbell >closer to 100 than to 14 > >

ALONE? From: "ti… [at] ch2m.com" <ti… [at] ch2m.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 11:00:00 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) At 12 years old, I trekked 9 days across the Sierras, through Ranger Pass and on to summit Mt. Whitney, the highest mountain in the continental USA. If you have a belief in Darwin’s Theory, then you might say I was improving the gene pool if I succeeded or failed. dEmO From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:24 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Fellow sailors, I think what is wrong with American society is that we've let so called "social scientists" dictate what young people can and cannot do. They want to squeeze everyone into a Universal Average. But geniuses, such as Mozart, didn't let such things get in the way when they composed their first symphonies, did they? I remember when I was quite young, having dreams of building a simple boat, mounting an outboard on the back, and setting forth to explore the upper reaches of the Hudson River. And remember, Huckleberry Finn? Why do we attempt to judge others' abilities with reference exclusively to our own? Would we have ever reached the Moon? I look back at what I did as a very young child; nowadays, most parents wouldn't let children that young out of the house alone, let alone travel off that far by themselves, but I did it every day, and I feel blessed that my folks gave me that much freedom. When I see parents lined up in long lines in cars outside schools at 3PM, looking like the Airport terminals at Los Angeles International, it makes me sick. At that age, we all walked or rode our bicycles to school, instead of feeding societal paranoia and getting a head start on heart disease and obesity from lack of excercise. I can't remember a single kid who had their parents shuttle them to and from school, and I'm sure there were just as many perverts on the lose trying to snatch kids. Just my twenty cents. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/4/10, pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: From: pw… [at] aol.com <pw… [at] aol.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (Chris) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 9:57 AM < Why? Because as a society we don't think kids at that age have had sufficient experience to make those kinds of commitments. > Makes you wonder why the drinking age is 21 but you can enlist in the service at 18 and go kill people. <After Laura who will be next and at what age? I shudder to think. > Next news flash: 18 month old kid sets sail around the world in "Moses Basket" <Do one of these kids have to get killed before this mindless competition stops? > Probably. < I keep wondering where the adults are.> Cheerleading and hoping to cash in. Paul >I, like many at that age, was lucky to be able to find my head with both hands >let alone sail across an ocean. >Regards, >Wayne

Allen Edwards wrote: > > > But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail > around the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this > personally but who are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? > No authority, legally, but we can have opinions about wise and unwise actions. Chris >

The courts said OJ wasn't guilty. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 4:59:20 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? Allen On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> wrote: >timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com wrote: > >>Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we (you and >>me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone else in their right >>mind? That's allowed by law in Michigan. If a person has mental infirmities that cause him/her to behave in ways that endanger him/her self, the person can be subjected to a guardianship. I had a case involving an older guy who was in a nursing home because his wife could no longer control him. He was determined to have impaired "higher executive powers," which meant impaired judgment and ability to make sound decisions. He'd done some dumb things that got him into physical danger. The behavior was consistent with the diagnosis (and inconsistent with his prior behavior). He seemed quite normal to me but a respected geriatric evaluation center identified these impairments. > >But--and this is a big "but"--it is not common, and it requires adjudication >after hearings by a judge. They are individualized determinations. > > >In making private judgments about things, I feel much better about assuming a 14 >year old lacks both the physical and mental capacities to sail around the world >alone than to make the same determination about an old guy, if the question >about him is whether his previous experience and knowledge remains effective. >Chichester set sail after a cancer diagnosis, as I recall, and didn't he >actually have to abandon his last voyage when he just couldn't go on? I'm >inclined to leave decisions of that kind in the individual who has a wealth of >knowledge to evaluate risks. It might be different if some fellow who had spent >his whole life as a store clerk in a small Iowa town suddenly decided to sell >everything and buy a boat to sail around the world, with no previous >experience. That would look much more like a delusion. > > >I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger >versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a >quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational >80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big >trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a >14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > > >And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and >be sailing at 100. > > >Chris Campbell >closer to 100 than to 14 > >

I think that was a jury of people like these list members, not a judge which is what was being discussed in regards to older sailors too feeble to go out on their boats. On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 5:51 AM, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > The courts said OJ wasn't guilty. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, August 4, 2010 4:59:20 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) > > > > But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around > the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who > are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? > > Allen > > > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri > nternet.com <cl… [at] charterinternet.com>> wrote: > >> >> >> timmothy.lessley@ ch2m.com <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Least we not be too careful – very soon someone will suggest that we >> (you and me!) are too old to go sailing and are a danger to everyone else in >> their right mind? >> >> >> That's allowed by law in Michigan. If a person has mental infirmities >> that cause him/her to behave in ways that endanger him/her self, the person >> can be subjected to a guardianship. I had a case involving an older guy who >> was in a nursing home because his wife could no longer control him. He was >> determined to have impaired "higher executive powers," which meant impaired >> judgment and ability to make sound decisions. He'd done some dumb things >> that got him into physical danger. The behavior was consistent with the >> diagnosis (and inconsistent with his prior behavior). He seemed quite normal >> to me but a respected geriatric evaluation center identified these >> impairments. >> >> But--and this is a big "but"--it is not common, and it requires >> adjudication after hearings by a judge. They are individualized >> determinations. >> >> In making private judgments about things, I feel much better about >> assuming a 14 year old lacks both the physical and mental capacities to sail >> around the world alone than to make the same determination about an old guy, >> if the question about him is whether his previous experience and knowledge >> remains effective. Chichester set sail after a cancer diagnosis, as I >> recall, and didn't he actually have to abandon his last voyage when he just >> couldn't go on? I'm inclined to leave decisions of that kind in the >> individual who has a wealth of knowledge to evaluate risks. It might be >> different if some fellow who had spent his whole life as a store clerk in a >> small Iowa town suddenly decided to sell everything and buy a boat to sail >> around the world, with no previous experience. That would look much more >> like a delusion. >> >> I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs >> danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a >> quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational >> 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a >> big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational >> than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. >> >> And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example >> and be sailing at 100. >> >> Chris Campbell >> closer to 100 than to 14 >> >> >> >> >> > > >

"Accusations are for the police! " Inspector Closeau (well... Peter Sellers) Common sense is neither common or sense. I hope for mercy not justice from a judge. My Best, Mike F From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 5:46:41 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Allen Edwards wrote: >But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around the >world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who are you >to say she is not and that the court was wrong? No authority, legally, but we can have opinions about wise and unwise actions. Chris >

Sailors, My experience is that many women reach their peak of strength and endurance at age 15. This is certainly true of a large percentage, if not a majority, of female swimmers. And if not, they almost all seem to be near the peak performance of what they will ever achieve in their lifetime...which is pretty durn awesome! Assuming they have the training and the smarts, and, at that age more than likely have way more functioning brain cells than we have, Laura Deckker should be able to get the job done, especially with the level of shore support, meteorological guidance, and electronic aides to navigation in our time. I'm rooting for her, YOU GO GURL! I say, also, Take that, you bass ackward sexist Mullahs! Wooo Whooo! Jerry PS: Then, there is a certain 60 year old woman, former gold medal Olympian Dianna Nyad, who is prepped to swim from Cuba to Florida any day now. 103 miles as the seagull flies, which means probably a heck of a lot sea miles than that. And watch out for sharks, stinging jelly fish, and yup, alligators. Check out her web site. --- On Thu, 8/5/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 6:50 PM "Accusations are for the police! " Inspector Closeau (well... Peter Sellers) Common sense is neither common or sense. I hope for mercy not justice from a judge. My Best, Mike F From: Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 5:46:41 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Allen Edwards wrote: But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? No authority, legally, but we can have opinions about wise and unwise actions. Chris

Excellent. On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Sailors, > My experience is that many women reach their peak of strength and endurance > at age 15. > This is certainly true of a large percentage, if not a majority, of female > swimmers. And if not, they almost all seem to be near the peak performance > of what they will ever achieve in their lifetime...which is pretty durn > awesome! > > Assuming they have the training and the smarts, and, at that age more than > likely have way more functioning brain cells than we have, Laura Deckker > should be able to get the job done, especially with the level of shore > support, meteorological guidance, and electronic aides to navigation in our > time. I'm rooting for her, YOU GO GURL! > > I say, also, Take that, you bass ackward sexist Mullahs! > Wooo Whooo! > Jerry > > PS: Then, there is a certain 60 year old woman, former gold medal Olympian > Dianna Nyad, who is prepped to swim from Cuba to Florida any day now. 103 > miles as the seagull flies, which means probably a heck of a lot sea miles > than that. And watch out for sharks, stinging jelly fish, and yup, > alligators. Check out her web site. > > --- On *Thu, 8/5/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>* wrote: > > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 6:50 PM > > > > "Accusations are for the police! " Inspector Closeau (well... Peter > Sellers) > Common sense is neither common or sense. I hope for mercy not justice > from a judge. > My Best, Mike F > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Chris Campbell <clcampbell@charteri nternet.com> > > *To:* Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com > *Sent:* Thu, August 5, 2010 5:46:41 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) > > > > Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > But there was a hearing and a judge said she was competent to sail around > the world alone. You are a nice guy so don't take this personally but who > are you to say she is not and that the court was wrong? > > > No authority, legally, but we can have opinions about wise and unwise > actions. > > Chris > > > > > > >

Comments in line: I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger > versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a > quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational > 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a > big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational > than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > > And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example > and be sailing at 100. > > Chris Campbell > closer to 100 than to 14 > Personally I like the old Nordic Saga's and final adventure of the aged. Just light a match. /ch carries nothing flammable on board

this is getting uglier by the minute..let's just hope that if anyone does the big bang exit that it is not in a crowded marina and they take no one else with them. A child is born to parents who are theoretically responsible for their health and well-being until they are old enough to assume that responsibility for themselves (i.e. they are capable of moving out, feeding, sheltering and clothing themselves, etc.) It is assumed that they are wanted and nurtured by loving parents for this evolution process. As a mother of a grown person, I know that most parents have that intuition to recognize when the move is coming. As a teen I too was ready to roll. left home at 18 and put my own self through school, and many life adventures my parents would have discouraged. (I could have profited here and there by listening to their wisdom). However, my father, an engineer, sailor, hunter and fisherman, would not allow me my drivers license till I could practically disassemble and reassemble my first car, their handmedown 48 Chrysler New Yorker tank. The theory was if I could fix it, I was capable of driving it and bringing it and myself home. I took this knowledge to the dragstrip with my own cars and some personal success, which I soon realized was expensive and time-consuming weekend activity. The same held true as a child, I was allowed complete access to all the tools in the garage as long as I put them back clean where they belonged. Can you imagine a 10 year old using a drawknife? At any rate, I have all my fingers, and had all the advice I was willing to ask for. I turned these woodworking interests into cabinet-making, surfboard and boat-building as I grew up.Still growing. If my 14 year old daughter wanted to sail around the world, she would have had to take me along. The next time I would let her go by herself if she desired. Surfing, swimming, skiing, hiking, short adventures, fine, but one of my lifeguard lessons is that when you do things remotely, it should be with a buddy. You know this 14 year old may be wise for her years but the glory will be more for her parents than herself. They helped her attain this thirst for attention. It reminds me of the little beauty queen murdered at her parents home while oblivious parents partied upstairs. Media-fed drive. What this discussion boils down to is us adults having the right to end our lives doing what we like to do (nothing wrong unless others go along by accident)(nor boats or vehicles ghosting around till someone else gets hurt). However, we in this country don't send our 14 year olds off to war let alone girls yet other countries impress these ages into battle. Are we truly overprotective, or is it because we value life and the offspring we are (ideally anyway) nurturing into being healthy and productive individuals? Just because I didn't wear a helmet as a child excuse me not getting one for my grandson so he can get past the head-injury potential of learning how to ride a bike, or putting him in the carseat instead of standing up next to me so I could hold him in place while I drive my car? I can't imagine having to care for an invalid that got that way after I defied the logic of preparing him for the world by not teaching him or using basic safety. This issue has less to do with adult suicide and more to do with parental love. The fame for this child will probably not translate into her becoming a world famous scientist, engineer, doctor, whatever, but I hope that is doesn't make her too much older than her years. Maybe she'll get a scholarship somewhere and use that energy to be whomever she really wants to be. She will have plenty of time to think this over at sea. I hope we wait till she's back to carry on with whether or not it's been a good or bad thing. Let's go sailing, summer's going by fast! HH From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 4:10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Comments in line: I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > >And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and >be sailing at 100. > > >Chris Campbell >closer to 100 than to 14 > Personally I like the old Nordic Saga's and final adventure of the aged. Just light a match. /ch carries nothing flammable on board

This is not about glory. It is about $$$. My mom & dad were wise enough to refuse me an El Toro at age 8. I really fixed them, I was a Professional Motorcycle Racer at age 23. Injuries stopped me in 1969. We won the Cal20 Nationals in 75 & 76. Competition is an addiction for some. when I got an El Toro at 24 I sailed it under 3 times. Then I sold it to my friend. My other friend sailed it to Victory in the Bullship race in 1977. Life is strange. We are in the chase to win our class in the DH Div in the YRA "Party Circuit. I am not a "Party Guy" WTF. My Best, Mike F From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 12:18:31 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) this is getting uglier by the minute..let's just hope that if anyone does the big bang exit that it is not in a crowded marina and they take no one else with them. A child is born to parents who are theoretically responsible for their health and well-being until they are old enough to assume that responsibility for themselves (i.e. they are capable of moving out, feeding, sheltering and clothing themselves, etc.) It is assumed that they are wanted and nurtured by loving parents for this evolution process. As a mother of a grown person, I know that most parents have that intuition to recognize when the move is coming. As a teen I too was ready to roll. left home at 18 and put my own self through school, and many life adventures my parents would have discouraged. (I could have profited here and there by listening to their wisdom). However, my father, an engineer, sailor, hunter and fisherman, would not allow me my drivers license till I could practically disassemble and reassemble my first car, their handmedown 48 Chrysler New Yorker tank. The theory was if I could fix it, I was capable of driving it and bringing it and myself home. I took this knowledge to the dragstrip with my own cars and some personal success, which I soon realized was expensive and time-consuming weekend activity. The same held true as a child, I was allowed complete access to all the tools in the garage as long as I put them back clean where they belonged. Can you imagine a 10 year old using a drawknife? At any rate, I have all my fingers, and had all the advice I was willing to ask for. I turned these woodworking interests into cabinet-making, surfboard and boat-building as I grew up.Still growing. If my 14 year old daughter wanted to sail around the world, she would have had to take me along. The next time I would let her go by herself if she desired. Surfing, swimming, skiing, hiking, short adventures, fine, but one of my lifeguard lessons is that when you do things remotely, it should be with a buddy. You know this 14 year old may be wise for her years but the glory will be more for her parents than herself. They helped her attain this thirst for attention. It reminds me of the little beauty queen murdered at her parents home while oblivious parents partied upstairs. Media-fed drive. What this discussion boils down to is us adults having the right to end our lives doing what we like to do (nothing wrong unless others go along by accident)(nor boats or vehicles ghosting around till someone else gets hurt). However, we in this country don't send our 14 year olds off to war let alone girls yet other countries impress these ages into battle. Are we truly overprotective, or is it because we value life and the offspring we are (ideally anyway) nurturing into being healthy and productive individuals? Just because I didn't wear a helmet as a child excuse me not getting one for my grandson so he can get past the head-injury potential of learning how to ride a bike, or putting him in the carseat instead of standing up next to me so I could hold him in place while I drive my car? I can't imagine having to care for an invalid that got that way after I defied the logic of preparing him for the world by not teaching him or using basic safety. This issue has less to do with adult suicide and more to do with parental love. The fame for this child will probably not translate into her becoming a world famous scientist, engineer, doctor, whatever, but I hope that is doesn't make her too much older than her years. Maybe she'll get a scholarship somewhere and use that energy to be whomever she really wants to be. She will have plenty of time to think this over at sea. I hope we wait till she's back to carry on with whether or not it's been a good or bad thing. Let's go sailing, summer's going by fast! HH From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 4:10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Comments in line: I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > >And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and >be sailing at 100. > > >Chris Campbell >closer to 100 than to 14 > Personally I like the old Nordic Saga's and final adventure of the aged. Just light a match. /ch carries nothing flammable on board

I emulate Rod who died earlier but who would rush up 10 flights of stairs to keep in shape .. We need Heroes. He will forever be one of mine. My Best., Mike F From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 4:10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Comments in line: I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. > >And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and >be sailing at 100. > > >Chris Campbell >closer to 100 than to 14 > Personally I like the old Nordic Saga's and final adventure of the aged. Just light a match. /ch carries nothing flammable on board

I emulate Rod who died earlier but who would rush up 10 flights of stairs to keep in shape .. We need Heroes. He will forever be one of mine. My Best., Mike F Mike, That reminds me of when I got to Pensacola, to learn to become a Navy Flight Officer. My Marine Drill Instructor was a space travel enthusiast. To transmit that enthusiasm, and to counter the idea in my head that I shouldn't take the basic training and military experience too seriously (that was my oldest brother's advice, "Don't take the basic training experience too seriously", who had completed his military career as a Captain in the Air Force, a Launch Control Officer, Vandenburg AFB..Yeah..BAD ADVICE!!) on my first day upon arrival and getting my hair feathers trimmed to a respectable 1/8" and attiring me in old canvas flight suit and combat boots..had me orbiting the barracks...running to the end of the hall, dashing up two flights of stairs, to the other end of the building, dashing down too flights of stars declaring, "One orbit, Sir!" as I flew by, up two flights of stairs to the other end, down that flight..."Two orbits Sir!" etc....... etc. ........etc.............. etc..........................etc.(pant, pant, pant, pant)! All I can say is I'm glad I did it at 22 and not my present age. I would have flamed, crashed and burned upon re-entry. Jerry --- On Fri, 8/6/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:49 PM I emulate Rod who died earlier but who would rush up 10 flights of stairs to keep in shape .. We need Heroes. He will forever be one of mine. My Best., Mike F From: chris123 <chris.herrnberger@ gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 4:10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Laura Deckker (All) Comments in line: I'll note, parenthetically, that if a competent elderly person weighs danger versus adventure and decides to take a risk, we ought to throw in a quality-of-life factor in favor of respecting the decision. If an rational 80-year-old decides that he's had a great life and would rather die trying a big trip than die later drooling in front of a TV set, that's more rational than a 14-year-old making a similar risk evaluation. And for myself, it would be nice if I could emulate Olin Stephens' example and be sailing at 100. Chris Campbell closer to 100 than to 14 Personally I like the old Nordic Saga's and final adventure of the aged. Just light a match. /ch carries nothing flammable on board

Actually some of the Nordics saga's are some of the most beautiful literature Ive read What is wrong with putting your friend adrift on a boat, down a fjord and setting it ablaze. When I worked in the Arctic we spread the ashes of close friends (pilots) from various planes along the tundra and down some of the most incredible fjords that no one will ever see or know of. The Canadian Arctic is incredibly beautiful especially at sunrise and at 10000 ft. At ground level everything just glistens and the world is complete still. Not a sound to be heard except that of periodic cracking ice. Just incredible. I suppose it will get more attention when the NW passage opens up which is now expected to happen in as little as 5 years from now. As a proud Canadian, I really hope the International court sides with Denmark's claim to the passage. That should ensure free and unrestricted passage. The only other valid claim is ours, but you all know how inefficient federal governments can be. Never was a fishing crises on the east coast. No sir, we just sold off the fishing quotas inside and outside the 200 mile limit to foreign trawlers with no catch limits all in the name of profit. Result. Took only 10 years and the cod fishery established by the Portuguese prior to Columbus coming to our shores (where do you think he got the information from...and we have the archaeological sites as well as Nordic sites to prove it) was cleaned out. Now imagine if the Canadian, American or Russian claims on the passage are accepted. Sailing content: there are four private sailing vessels that cruise the Canadian Arctic on a regular basis. Two are sponsored research vessels and other two are well private. Cool people who like to work and cruise in cool climates. My best /ch

mike farrell wrote: > > I emulate Rod who died earlier but who would rush up 10 flights > of stairs to keep in shape I do that too. Once when I lived in Lansing I trotted up several flights of stairs in a state office building, wearing a winter coat. When I emerged from the door at the top, panting and sweating, it was in somebody's office, not the corridor that I had anticipated. > .. > We need Heroes. He will forever be one of mine. We do need them, mostly as adults. There was a notion that kids need heroes, so various writers cooked up charming but false stories about George Washington never telling a lie and about Abe Lincoln. I don't remember being much charmed by those as a kid but as an adult I learned why they were heroic and deserved emulation. There are sound reasons, none of them that a kid could grasp. I keep a little pile of articles from magazines & newspapers about heroes in my office because I learn from them. One is about Liviu Librescu. Who? He was teaching engineering at Virginia Tech when the shooter came through. He was still teaching at age 76, a bit of minor heroism itself. As a child in Romania, he survived the Nazi Holocaust and the Communist regime and ended up in the US eventually. When the gunman came into his classroom building, he blocked the door with his body so his students could escape, and was killed. A guy named Brad Meltzer has written a book called /Heroes for My Son/, which I intend to buy. He's working on one for his daughter. The primary criterion is that the hero must help somebody. It's a bit embarrassing to be reading about heroes at my age but every time I read about somebody acting heroically under difficult circumstances, I wonder if I could pull it off or if I'd take the easy route. It's frightening to contemplate but reading about the folks who made the right choice may improve my odds of doing so. Chris Campbell >