Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband

I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask about the logs. Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you decide. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that off. I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or cheating at sailboat racing. I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. Tom --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of these days. Tom Cal 2-34 Windsong W32 Anela --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM Sorry--- last transmission lost. I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. My Best, Mike Farrell

Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the total engine time run, and it would be legal. Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask about the logs. Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you decide. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that off. I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or cheating at sailboat racing. I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. Tom --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of these days. Tom Cal 2-34 Windsong W32 Anela --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM Sorry--- last transmission lost. I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. My Best, Mike Farrell

When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the time, many had questions that were not answered. There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by everything I have said. Mt Best, Mike Farrell From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the total engine time run, and it would be legal. Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM > > > >I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, >presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. >If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. > > >You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion >that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, >withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of >chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated >but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses >language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he >cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you >can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to >the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm >saying? > >Tom > >--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > >>From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM >> >> >> >> >> >>If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, >>as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, >>regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be >>the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he >>didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to >>wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify >>with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time >>of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's >>delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees >>vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. >>Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed >>rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race >>committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm >>sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get >>that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that >>happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be >>investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this >>skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point >>in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> >> >>Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As >>a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment >>HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't >>mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't >>work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. >> >> >>I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I >>don't find that significant without further information. >> >>I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do >>know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did >>finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he >>is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and >>he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. >> >> >>As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to >>go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they >>botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and >>get serious about the rules. >> >>As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence >>Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht >>clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where >>my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. >> >>I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask >>about the logs. >> >>Tom >> >> >> >> >> >>--- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll >>>call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased >>>reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near >>>us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the >>>daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her >>>own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her >>>engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for >>>some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? >>> As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the >>>trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew >>>would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee >>>was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were >>>required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a >>>protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in >>>personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you >>>decide. >>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>> >>> >>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. >>> >>>You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still >>>registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a >>>member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race >>>committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t >>>sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are >>>you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of >>>that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds >>>to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that >>>off. >>> >>>I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his >>>position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they >>>didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across >>>the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky >>>to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any >>>comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his >>>daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks >>>have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience >>>in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge >>>distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 >>>miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. >>> >>> >>>You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how >>>the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a >>>man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race >>>infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. >>>Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in >>>sports or cheating at sailboat racing. >>> >>>I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I >>>still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. >>> >>>Tom >>> >>>--- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a >>>>member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he >>>>conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the >>>>race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His >>>>position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when >>>>his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat >>>>to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not >>>>sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did >>>>not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. >>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a >>>>Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, >>>>other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, >>>>they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the >>>>Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love >>>>them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way >>>>over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets >>>>really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. >>>>If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, >>>>the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is >>>>generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a >>>>couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. >>>> >>>>The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, >>>>etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and >>>>her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although >>>>on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be >>>>interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a >>>>racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been >>>>looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this >>>>one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta >>>>engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail >>>>covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. >>>> >>>>So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to >>>>see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of >>>>that so please do share with the group. >>>> >>>>Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my >>>>boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of >>>>these days. >>>> >>>> >>>>Tom >>>> >>>>Cal 2-34 Windsong >>>>W32 Anela >>>> >>>>--- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>>Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sorry--- last transmission lost. >>>>> I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail >>>>>allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his >>>>>"Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. >>>>> I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the >>>>>awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his >>>>>deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. >>>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >

First place... you cheat. I know you cheated because you just admitted it below. You have to read carefully but it is right there in light and dark. You had more wind than your handicap allowed. What a cheater. ;-) Allen On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of > engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel > in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is > left up to the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such > inspections and record keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, > as, a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in such > Herculean undertakings, if you want to call such contests thus. Of course, > I've never been in a race where such was the expectation, that is, of > measuring fuel usage by race committee. > > I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long > an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it > when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where > it was written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, > optionally for as many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. > That was changed to two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San > Diego Race). I haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I > don't know it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could > motor along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then > shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the total > engine time run, and it would be legal. > > Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you > five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an > advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below > (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I don't do > anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin > interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class for all cruiser class > racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered in cruising class could finish > the race before the winds died late at night, so, unless you had a rare > condition of all night long breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. > I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the > race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the > breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish > line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. > Jerry > > --- On *Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com>* wrote: > > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM > > > > I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, > presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the > race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. > > You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear > suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs > every day, withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying > positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later > one person says he cheated but only comes up with vague suggestions. > Particularly when that person uses language like "He knows he did not win. I > can supply details! He lied, he cheated." So, where are the details? I > hate to beat a dead horse here but you can't make statements like without > backing it up with facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat > and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? > > Tom > > --- On *Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net>* wrote: > > > From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM > > > > If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record > of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So > if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, > there will be the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the > membership, he didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm > included) can try to wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his > club affiliation, verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full > dues paying member at the time of registration for that race. As a member > of a club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub > Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite well to > whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation in YRA events > involves following rules. If a crewmember observed rules broken, the report > should have gone to committee. Sometimes race committees don't want to > know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm sure that is few and > far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to > the mainland. He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. > Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the interest > of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper may be. If there > was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point in this list taking > it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio > problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt > water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they > lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. > If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix > it. > I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the > ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. > > I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I > do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He > did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so > maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery > skipper and he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on > Saraband. > > As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I > have to go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible > that they botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the > "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. > > As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no > evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are > local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could > join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same > deal in the Portland area. > > I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll > ask about the logs. > > Tom > > > > > > --- On *Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>* wrote: > > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM > > > > I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. > When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race > Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily > position that was near us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. > We had no motor. If the daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she > must have been sailing in her own weather system that no other boats > experienced. I can't say she ran her engine. If the report was not > accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for some reason early reports > were in error as were later reports. Why? > As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after > the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe > the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the > race committee was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily > position reports were required. The race was poorly run. It was not my > obligation to protest and if a protest was to be logged, the time to protest > had expired. If you are in personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to > show you his log. Then you decide. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. > > You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still > registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't > a member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the > race committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they > weren’t sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like > “What club are you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By > the completion of that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m > not mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and > sophisticated to pull all of that off. > > I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why > do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either > sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying > he motored across the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a > W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew > member you spoke with have any comment on that or was he sticking with just > the yacht club hearsay? Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not > mean they didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained > speed a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I and > when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing conditions can vary > greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles a day I would look askance > at that. If it was 160, I would not. > > You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize > how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper > is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate > race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that > either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity > whether it’s doping in sports or cheating at sailboat racing. > > I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and > I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew > member. > > Tom > > > --- On *Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>* wrote: > > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM > > > > I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was > not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement > that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu > after the race. There were others present who were party to the > conversation. His position reports stopped early into the race when he had > radio trouble, when his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were > unlikely. As the last boat to finish he became the overall winner. The > Pacific Cup Race Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced > enough to ask the right questions. They did not do the job they should have > done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > > > > Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current > owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. > In my opinion, other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires > holding them up, they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, > I bought the Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. > You either love them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional > styling and they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of > security when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and > my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down the > coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been a better > choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to sail. However, > she was not really built to spend a couple years wandering around the > Pacific although many folks have. > > The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, > etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof > and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal > although on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison > would be interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety > factor. I am not a racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with > that. While I had been looking at W32's for a number of years the thing > that finally did it was this one had all of the following equipment replaced > in the last two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, > running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless > steel bowsprit and boomkin. > > So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one > want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have > EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. > > Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my > boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something > one of these days. > > Tom > > > Cal 2-34 Windsong > W32 Anela > > > --- On *Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>* wrote: > > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM > > > > Sorry--- last transmission lost. > I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the > Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe > that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. > I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before > the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, > his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you are innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few here agree, having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your boat well and not attending an awards ceremony does not constitute cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even when there are mysterious "more factors involved in this incident" but they can't be revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by everything I have said as well. Tom --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the time, many had questions that were not answered. There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by everything I have said. Mt Best, Mike Farrell From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the total engine time run, and it would be legal. Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask about the logs. Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you decide. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that off. I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or cheating at sailboat racing. I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. Tom --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of these days. Tom Cal 2-34 Windsong W32 Anela --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM Sorry--- last transmission lost. I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. My Best, Mike Farrell

Dear Tom, It will take some time to chronicle the events of June and July of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the relief of Cal boats. You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light displacement boats. If you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, that was not my intention. There would be no doubt if the situation was looked into at the time and place. If you feel that I somehow disapprove of Westsails, you would be in error. You were not there. You did not race the 1988 Pacific Cup. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:36:46 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you are innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few here agree, having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your boat well and not attending an awards ceremony does not constitute cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even when there are mysterious "more factors involved in this incident" but they can't be revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by everything I have said as well. Tom --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM > > > > > > When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by the rules. >You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other competitors to evade or >break rules. In 1988 no inspection was done, no shafts were sealed. Things >were not as well organized then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 >days. Saraband's owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At >the time, many had questions that were not answered. > There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by everything I >have said. > Mt Best, Mike Farrell > > > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > >Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine >run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the >tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to >the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record >keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people >have a lot of time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you >want to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such >was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. > > >I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an >interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it when I >noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where it was >written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as >many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to >two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I haven't >done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know it that was >changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor along in the dark until >you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down the engine and sailed, as >long as you kept tally of the total engine time run, and it would be legal. > >Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you five >seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an advantage >that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below (whether or not you >intended to do such a thing, which I don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, >risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they >only had one class for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats >entered in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late at >night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long breezes, the >smaller boats were screwed. >I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the race, >as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze kept >blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 >AM, and I took first place. >Jerry > >--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM >> >> >> >>I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, >>presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. >>If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. >> >> >>You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion >>that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, >>withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of >>chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated >>but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses >>language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he >>cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you >>can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to >>the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm >>saying? >> >>Tom >> >>--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, >>>as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, >>>regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be >>>the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he >>>didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to >>>wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify >>>with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time >>>of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's >>>delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees >>>vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. >>>Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed >>>rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race >>>committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm >>>sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get >>>that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that >>>happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be >>>investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this >>>skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point >>>in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>> >>> >>>Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As >>>a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment >>>HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't >>>mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't >>>work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. >>> >>> >>>I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I >>>don't find that significant without further information. >>> >>>I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do >>>know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did >>>finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he >>>is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and >>>he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. >>> >>> >>>As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to >>>go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they >>>botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and >>>get serious about the rules. >>> >>>As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence >>>Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht >>>clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where >>>my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. >>> >>>I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask >>>about the logs. >>> >>>Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll >>>>call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased >>>>reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near >>>>us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the >>>>daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her >>>>own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her >>>>engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for >>>>some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? >>>> As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the >>>>trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew >>>>would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee >>>>was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were >>>>required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a >>>>protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in >>>>personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you >>>>decide. >>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. >>>> >>>>You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still >>>>registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a >>>>member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race >>>>committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t >>>>sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are >>>>you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of >>>>that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds >>>>to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that >>>>off. >>>> >>>>I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his >>>>position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they >>>>didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across >>>>the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky >>>>to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any >>>>comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his >>>>daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks >>>>have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience >>>>in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge >>>>distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 >>>>miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. >>>> >>>> >>>>You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how >>>>the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a >>>>man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race >>>>infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. >>>>Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in >>>>sports or cheating at sailboat racing. >>>> >>>>I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I >>>>still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. >>>> >>>>Tom >>>> >>>>--- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>>Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a >>>>>member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he >>>>>conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the >>>>>race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His >>>>>position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when >>>>>his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat >>>>>to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not >>>>>sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did >>>>>not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. >>>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a >>>>>Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, >>>>>other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, >>>>>they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the >>>>>Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love >>>>>them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way >>>>>over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets >>>>>really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. >>>>>If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, >>>>>the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is >>>>>generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a >>>>>couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. >>>>> >>>>>The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, >>>>>etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and >>>>>her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although >>>>>on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be >>>>>interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a >>>>>racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been >>>>>looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this >>>>>one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta >>>>>engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail >>>>>covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. >>>>> >>>>>So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to >>>>>see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of >>>>>that so please do share with the group. >>>>> >>>>>Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my >>>>>boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of >>>>>these days. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Tom >>>>> >>>>>Cal 2-34 Windsong >>>>>W32 Anela >>>>> >>>>>--- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>>>Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Sorry--- last transmission lost. >>>>>> I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail >>>>>>allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his >>>>>>"Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. >>>>>> I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the >>>>>>awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his >>>>>>deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. >>>>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > >

One final word on the matter that may or may not apply. TransPacific races, either the original Honolulu Race or some of the newer variations, are some of the races least subject to cheating by such subterfuges as running an engine at night. Mexican races, yes. Some coastal races, yes. The Transpac and its siblings are very fast sailing races and few sailboats could travel as fast under power as the average day sailing. When we went in '81, it was a fast year but, when boat speed dropped below 15 knots during the day, the watch below started sticking their heads out the hatch to see what happened and why it was so quiet. At night, we were hitting 22 knots regularly with the knotmeter going blank in the squalls, which came through every half hour. We did 2400 miles in 11 days 20 hours in a 40 footer. Not a ULDB, either. Nobody can motor that fast. Even oversized spinnakers would probably be more trouble than they were worth. Mike Kennedy On Aug 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > Dear Tom, > It will take some time to chronicle the events of > June and July of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the > relief of Cal boats. > > You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light > displacement boats. If you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, > that was not my intention. There would be no doubt if the situation > was looked into at the time and place. If you feel that I somehow > disapprove of Westsails, you would be in error. You were not > there. You did not race the 1988 Pacific Cup. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:36:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you > are innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few > here agree, having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your > boat well and not attending an awards ceremony does not constitute > cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even when there are mysterious > "more factors involved in this incident" but they can't be > revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to > the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by > everything I have said as well. > > Tom > > --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM > > > > When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by > the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other > competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was > done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized > then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's > owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the > time, many had questions that were not answered. > There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by > everything I have said. > Mt Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a > log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the > amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is > that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all > competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long > way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of > time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want > to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race > where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by > race committee. > > I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to > how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked > the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, > the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine > in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you > wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two > hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I > haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know > it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor > along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then > shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the > total engine time run, and it would be legal. > > Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged > you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd > have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow > it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I > don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, > and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class > for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered > in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late > at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long > breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. > I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I > entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the > afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens > till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. > Jerry > > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM > > > > I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was > required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when > entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. > > You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear > suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical > runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and > falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race > and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with > vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like > "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he > cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse > here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with > facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the > Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? > > Tom > > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM > > > > If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a > record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a > yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his > dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven > otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes > most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it > and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, > verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying > member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a > club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub > Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite > well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation > in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed > rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes > race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested > interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew > could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. > He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. > Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the > interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper > may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No > point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very > insulting. Helen > > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio > problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in > a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the > fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether > the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much > you can do except try and fix it. > I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the > ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. > > I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were > on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good > sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the > 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has > 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single > Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. > > As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only > thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's > surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they > should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. > > As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with > no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. > There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 > a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm > sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. > > I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever > do I'll ask about the logs. > > Tom > > > > > > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM > > > > I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing > against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. > Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, > Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in > much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run > reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her > own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she > ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a > mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were > later reports. Why? > As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht > Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not > attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or > not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to > enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race > was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest > was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in > personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. > Then you decide. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. > > You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, > yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone > else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would > have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one > phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask > the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member > of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of > that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not > mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and > sophisticated to pull all of that off. > > I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with > anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and > his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re > implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save > time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 > knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any > comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? > Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they > didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed > a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I > and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing > conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles > a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. > > You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do > realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said > the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a > blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t > find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be > exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or > cheating at sailboat racing. > > I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong > accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a > comment by a crew member. > > Tom > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM > > > > I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. > He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this > was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it > and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present > who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped > early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio > trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat > to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race > Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask > the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. > Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > > > > Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the > current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about > the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both > have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. > After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last > summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love > them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and > they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security > when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and > my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down > the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been > a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to > sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years > wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. > > The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, > spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next > to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is > not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of > equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the > less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if > it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been > looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it > was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last > two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, > running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a > stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. > > So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for > one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the > first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. > > Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play > with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make > sell something one of these days. > > Tom > > Cal 2-34 Windsong > W32 Anela > > > --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM > > > > Sorry--- last transmission lost. > I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the > Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I > believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did > not win. > I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear > before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close > inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

You and your crew have my respect. My Best, Mike From: Michael Kennedy <mi… [at] mac.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 2:11:29 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband One final word on the matter that may or may not apply. TransPacific races, either the original Honolulu Race or some of the newer variations, are some of the races least subject to cheating by such subterfuges as running an engine at night. Mexican races, yes. Some coastal races, yes. The Transpac and its siblings are very fast sailing races and few sailboats could travel as fast under power as the average day sailing. When we went in '81, it was a fast year but, when boat speed dropped below 15 knots during the day, the watch below started sticking their heads out the hatch to see what happened and why it was so quiet. At night, we were hitting 22 knots regularly with the knotmeter going blank in the squalls, which came through every half hour. We did 2400 miles in 11 days 20 hours in a 40 footer. Not a ULDB, either. Nobody can motor that fast. Even oversized spinnakers would probably be more trouble than they were worth. Mike Kennedy On Aug 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > Dear Tom, > It will take some time to chronicle the events of > June and July of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the > relief of Cal boats. > > You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light > displacement boats. If you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, > that was not my intention. There would be no doubt if the situation > was looked into at the time and place. If you feel that I somehow > disapprove of Westsails, you would be in error. You were not > there. You did not race the 1988 Pacific Cup. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:36:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you > are innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few > here agree, having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your > boat well and not attending an awards ceremony does not constitute > cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even when there are mysterious > "more factors involved in this incident" but they can't be > revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to > the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by > everything I have said as well. > > Tom > > --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM > > > > When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by > the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other > competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was > done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized > then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's > owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the > time, many had questions that were not answered. > There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by > everything I have said. > Mt Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a > log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the > amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is > that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all > competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long > way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of > time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want > to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race > where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by > race committee. > > I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to > how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked > the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, > the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine > in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you > wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two > hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I > haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know > it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor > along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then > shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the > total engine time run, and it would be legal. > > Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged > you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd > have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow > it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I > don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, > and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class > for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered > in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late > at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long > breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. > I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I > entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the > afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens > till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. > Jerry > > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM > > > > I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was > required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when > entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. > > You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear > suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical > runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and > falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race > and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with > vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like > "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he > cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse > here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with > facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the > Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? > > Tom > > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM > > > > If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a > record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a > yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his > dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven > otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes > most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it > and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, > verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying > member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a > club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub > Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite > well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation > in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed > rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes > race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested > interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew > could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. > He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. > Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the > interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper > may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No > point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very > insulting. Helen > > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio > problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in > a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the > fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether > the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much > you can do except try and fix it. > I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the > ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. > > I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were > on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good > sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the > 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has > 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single > Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. > > As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only > thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's > surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they > should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. > > As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with > no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. > There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 > a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm > sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. > > I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever > do I'll ask about the logs. > > Tom > > > > > > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM > > > > I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing > against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. > Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, > Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in > much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run > reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her > own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she > ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a > mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were > later reports. Why? > As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht > Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not > attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or > not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to > enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race > was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest > was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in > personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. > Then you decide. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. > > You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, > yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone > else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would > have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one > phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask > the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member > of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of > that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not > mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and > sophisticated to pull all of that off. > > I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with > anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and > his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re > implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save > time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 > knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any > comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? > Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they > didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed > a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I > and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing > conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles > a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. > > You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do > realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said > the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a > blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t > find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be > exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or > cheating at sailboat racing. > > I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong > accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a > comment by a crew member. > > Tom > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM > > > > I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. > He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this > was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it > and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present > who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped > early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio > trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat > to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race > Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask > the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. > Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > > > > Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the > current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about > the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both > have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. > After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last > summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love > them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and > they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security > when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and > my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down > the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been > a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to > sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years > wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. > > The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, > spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next > to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is > not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of > equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the > less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if > it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been > looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it > was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last > two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, > running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a > stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. > > So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for > one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the > first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. > > Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play > with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make > sell something one of these days. > > Tom > > Cal 2-34 Windsong > W32 Anela > > > --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM > > > > Sorry--- last transmission lost. > I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the > Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I > believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did > not win. > I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear > before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close > inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Gosh, I'm so sorry you just don't get it Mike. It's not about boat choice. I love fat, round, heavy boats and I love flat, fast boats. I just wish I was going to live long enough to own one of each. God knows the Westsails don't need me to stick up for them. The W32 has probably been around the world more times than any production boat out there. My Cal 2-34 also doesn't need anyone to stick up for her either. She and I have sailed thousands of miles together over the 18 year we have been together. What this whole discussion has really been about is trashing someone without presenting hard proof. You're right I wasn't there, but I also didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, I know when I'm seeing verifiable data and when I'm seeing hyperbole. Tom --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 1:46 PM Dear Tom, It will take some time to chronicle the events of June and July of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the relief of Cal boats. You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light displacement boats. If you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, that was not my intention. There would be no doubt if the situation was looked into at the time and place. If you feel that I somehow disapprove of Westsails, you would be in error. You were not there. You did not race the 1988 Pacific Cup. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:36:46 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you are innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few here agree, having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your boat well and not attending an awards ceremony does not constitute cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even when there are mysterious "more factors involved in this incident" but they can't be revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by everything I have said as well. Tom --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the time, many had questions that were not answered. There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by everything I have said. Mt Best, Mike Farrell From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the total engine time run, and it would be legal. Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask about the logs. Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you decide. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that off. I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or cheating at sailboat racing. I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. Tom --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of these days. Tom Cal 2-34 Windsong W32 Anela --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM Sorry--- last transmission lost. I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. My Best, Mike Farrell

Dear Tom. I really do get it. Calling my statements of fact trash, here say, and hyperbole obscures the real issue. Chesterton said "Circumstantial evidence is strong when there is a trout in the milk" Hard proof was available: the truth was a casualty of a race committee who did not do it's job and a competitor who played hard and fast with the rules and got away with it. It is on his conscience. Racing is on the decline today because there are many who choose not to compete because of injustice, inequities and just plain deception and deceit on the part of some competitors. Race committees hold power and jurisdiction and often have no understanding of the rules of sail racing. If you have not raced a long distance race you do not understand what impact events and their outcome have on a racer who has spent 14 days at full race concentration. Saraband's owner had the opportunity to address the questions being asked by many in July 1988. His choice not to do so at that time and place has created doubt that remains today. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 12:02:27 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Gosh, I'm so sorry you just don't get it Mike. It's not about boat choice. I love fat, round, heavy boats and I love flat, fast boats. I just wish I was going to live long enough to own one of each. God knows the Westsails don't need me to stick up for them. The W32 has probably been around the world more times than any production boat out there. My Cal 2-34 also doesn't need anyone to stick up for her either. She and I have sailed thousands of miles together over the 18 year we have been together. What this whole discussion has really been about is trashing someone without presenting hard proof. You're right I wasn't there, but I also didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, I know when I'm seeing verifiable data and when I'm seeing hyperbole. Tom --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 1:46 PM > > > > > >Dear Tom, > It will take some time to chronicle the events of June and July >of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the relief of Cal boats. > > You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light displacement boats. If >you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, that was not my intention. There >would be no doubt if the situation was looked into at the time and place. If >you feel that I somehow disapprove of Westsails, you would be in error. You >were not there. You did not race the 1988 Pacific Cup. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > > From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:36:46 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband > > > > >I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you are >innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few here agree, having >your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your boat well and not attending an >awards ceremony does not constitute cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even >when there are mysterious "more factors involved in this incident" but they >can't be revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to the >relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by everything I have >said as well. > >Tom > >--- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by the rules. >>You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other competitors to evade or >>break rules. In 1988 no inspection was done, no shafts were sealed. Things >>were not as well organized then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 >>days. Saraband's owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At >>the time, many had questions that were not answered. >> There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by everything I >>have said. >> Mt Best, Mike Farrell >> >> >> >> From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> >> >> >> >>Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine >>run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the >>tanks before and after the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to >>the Corinthian expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record >>keeping could go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people >>have a lot of time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you >>want to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such >>was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. >> >> >>I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an >>interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it when I >>noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where it was >>written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as >>many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to >>two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I haven't >>done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know it that was >>changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor along in the dark until >>you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down the engine and sailed, as >>long as you kept tally of the total engine time run, and it would be legal. >> >>Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged you five >>seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd have an advantage >>that you would remove it from the transom and stow it below (whether or not you >>intended to do such a thing, which I don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, >>risky with my boat's layout, and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they >>only had one class for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats >>entered in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late at >>night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long breezes, the >>smaller boats were screwed. >>I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the race, >>as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze kept >>blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 >>AM, and I took first place. >>Jerry >> >>--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM >>> >>> >>> >>>I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, >>>presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. >>>If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. >>> >>> >>>You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion >>>that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical runs every day, >>>withholding position reports on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of >>>chaps me when a guy wins a race and 20 years later one person says he cheated >>>but only comes up with vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses >>>language like "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he >>>cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you >>>can't make statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to >>>the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm >>>saying? >>> >>>Tom >>> >>>--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a record of it, >>>>as member info is part of the justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, >>>>regardless of how cheap or expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be >>>>the proof. So until proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he >>>>didn't. Sometimes most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to >>>>wing it and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify >>>>with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time >>>>of registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's >>>>delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees >>>>vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. >>>>Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed >>>>rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes race >>>>committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, though I'm >>>>sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he wouldn't get >>>>that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of something that >>>>happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still should be >>>>investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this >>>>skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No point >>>>in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very insulting. Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>> >>>> >>>>Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As >>>>a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment >>>>HF radios have problems sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't >>>>mean much regardless of whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't >>>>work, there isn't much you can do except try and fix it. >>>> >>>> >>>>I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I >>>>don't find that significant without further information. >>>> >>>>I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were on. I do >>>>know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good sailor. He did >>>>finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he >>>>is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and >>>>he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. >>>> >>>> >>>>As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only thing I have to >>>>go on is their record and your observations. It's surely possible that they >>>>botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and >>>>get serious about the rules. >>>> >>>>As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence >>>>Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht >>>>clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where >>>>my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. >>>> >>>>I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask >>>>about the logs. >>>> >>>>Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>--- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing against. When roll >>>>>call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased >>>>>reporting. In the last few days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near >>>>>us we were sailing in much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the >>>>>daily run reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her >>>>>own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her >>>>>engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for >>>>>some reason early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? >>>>> As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the >>>>>trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew >>>>>would know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee >>>>>was not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were >>>>>required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a >>>>>protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in >>>>>personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you >>>>>decide. >>>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. >>>>> >>>>>You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, yet still >>>>>registered for the race and then you heard from someone else that he wasn't a >>>>>member of any club? It seems like that would have been really easy for the race >>>>>committee to check. Like one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t >>>>>sophisticated enough to ask the right questions? You mean like “What club are >>>>>you a member of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of >>>>>that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds >>>>>to me like they were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that >>>>>off. >>>>> >>>>>I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his >>>>>position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they >>>>>didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across >>>>>the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky >>>>>to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any >>>>>comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? Because his >>>>>daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. Many folks >>>>>have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You have experience >>>>>in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out over a huge >>>>>distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 >>>>>miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do realize how >>>>>the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the skipper is not a >>>>>man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, deliberate race >>>>>infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in that either Mike. >>>>>Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in >>>>>sports or cheating at sailboat racing. >>>>> >>>>>I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I >>>>>still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. >>>>> >>>>>Tom >>>>> >>>>>--- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>>>Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. He was not a >>>>>>member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this was a requirement that he >>>>>>conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it and told me so in Oahu after the >>>>>>race. There were others present who were party to the conversation. His >>>>>>position reports stopped early into the race when he had radio trouble, when >>>>>>his radio trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat >>>>>>to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not >>>>>>sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did >>>>>>not do the job they should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. >>>>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the current owner of a >>>>>>Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about the two boats. In my opinion, >>>>>>other than the fact that they both have big sticks with wires holding them up, >>>>>>they aren't much alike. After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the >>>>>>Westsail last summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love >>>>>>them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and they are way >>>>>>over built. Personally I like that sense of security when the weather gets >>>>>>really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. >>>>>>If we were only going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, >>>>>>the Cal would have been a better choice. She points higher and is >>>>>>generally much simpler to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a >>>>>>couple years wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. >>>>>> >>>>>>The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, >>>>>>etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and >>>>>>her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although >>>>>>on a long run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be >>>>>>interesting to see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a >>>>>>racer though so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been >>>>>>looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this >>>>>>one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta >>>>>>engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail >>>>>>covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. >>>>>> >>>>>>So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want to >>>>>>see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER heard of >>>>>>that so please do share with the group. >>>>>> >>>>>>Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my >>>>>>boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of >>>>>>these days. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Tom >>>>>> >>>>>>Cal 2-34 Windsong >>>>>>W32 Anela >>>>>> >>>>>>--- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >>>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >>>>>>>Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sorry--- last transmission lost. >>>>>>> I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the Westsail >>>>>>>allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I believe that his >>>>>>>"Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did not win. >>>>>>> I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear before the >>>>>>>awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close inspection, his >>>>>>>deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. >>>>>>> My Best, Mike Farrell >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

Michael Kennedy wrote: > > The Transpac and its siblings are very fast sailing races and few > sailboats could travel as fast under power as the average day sailing. > When we went in '81, it was a fast year but, when boat speed dropped > below 15 knots during the day, the watch below started sticking their > heads out the hatch to see what happened and why it was so quiet. At > night, we were hitting 22 knots regularly with the knotmeter going > blank in the squalls, which came through every half hour. > > We did 2400 miles in 11 days 20 hours in a 40 footer. Not a ULDB, > either. > Wow, sounds like fun, especially on somebody else's boat. What kind of standing rigging replacement schedule is observed on boats pushed hard like that? This past week has been cool and breezy here in northern lower Michigan and it has been good sailing in the Cal 20. Wednesday night I had the choice of jib and reefed main, or storm jib and full main. Being lazy, I chose the latter. The reefed main option would have been more weatherly. Last night the wind a a bit lighter and the seas were larger rollers instead of the choppy square waves, so I went faster on main & jib, although a reefed main might have been better still. But when sailing in a good blow, I am always conscious that those little wires are all that's holding the mast up. On my other boat, I replaced the standing rigging when it got to be about 45 years old (hey, we're in fresh water and the boat is indoors for half of each year). The Cal 20 is 43 now, and it seems likely that the standing rigging is original --except for the backstay, which started to fail and now is oversized. And while I'm asking questions, why does the Cal 20 backstay, the least stressed of the various wires, fail first and most often? Strange. At any rate, when the wind is in the north and blowing hard, I tend to use the outboard to approach my mooring. I'll drop the jib in open water and sail in on the main usually, but in a blow, the opportunities for blunder and idiocy are too great. It's a fairly crowded mooring field. There's a busy restaurant and local yacht club close by on shore so any clumsy errors are going to be seen. Chris Campbell Chris Campbell > Nobody can motor that fast. > > Even oversized spinnakers would probably be more trouble than they > were worth. > > Mike Kennedy > > > On Aug 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > >> Dear Tom, >> It will take some time to chronicle the events of >> June and July of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the >> relief of Cal boats. >> >> You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light >> displacement boats. If you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, >> that was not my intention. There would be no doubt if the situation >> was looked into at the time and place. If you feel that I somehow >> disapprove of Westsails, you would be in error. You were not >> there. You did not race the 1988 Pacific Cup. >> My Best, Mike Farrell >> >> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:36:46 AM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> >> >> >> I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you >> are innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few >> here agree, having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your >> boat well and not attending an awards ceremony does not constitute >> cheating, lying and lack of honor. Even when there are mysterious >> "more factors involved in this incident" but they can't be >> revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and move on much to >> the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I stand by >> everything I have said as well. >> >> Tom >> >> --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM >> >> >> >> When a competitor enters a race he or she agrees to abide by >> the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not fair to other >> competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was >> done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized >> then. Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's >> owner was not present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the >> time, many had questions that were not answered. >> There are more factors involved in this incident. I stand by >> everything I have said. >> Mt Best, Mike Farrell >> >> From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> >> >> >> Does the Pacific Cup require inspection of the boat, and keeping a >> log of engine run time to charge the battery, or, measurement of the >> amount of fuel in the tanks before and after the race? My guess is >> that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian expectation of all >> competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could go a long >> way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of >> time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want >> to call such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race >> where such was the expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by >> race committee. >> >> I was once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to >> how long an interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked >> the R.O. about it when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, >> the San Diego Race, where it was written you had to run the engine >> in thirty minute intervals, optionally for as many hours as you >> wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. That was changed to two >> hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San Diego Race). I >> haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I don't know >> it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor >> along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then >> shut down the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the >> total engine time run, and it would be legal. >> >> Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race is that they dinged >> you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption being you'd >> have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and stow >> it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I >> don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, >> and makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class >> for all cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered >> in cruising class could finish the race before the winds died late >> at night, so, unless you had a rare condition of all night long >> breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. >> I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I >> entered the race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the >> afternoon, and the breeze kept blowing at least into the high teens >> till we crossed the finish line at 12:30 AM, and I took first place. >> Jerry >> >> --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM >> >> >> >> I agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was >> required, presumably the skipper had to enter that information when >> entering the race. If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. >> >> You only address one of the issues though. There is a pretty clear >> suggestion that the skipper cheated by somehow getting these magical >> runs every day, withholding position reports on purpose and >> falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a race >> and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with >> vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like >> "He knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he >> cheated." So, where are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse >> here but you can't make statements like without backing it up with >> facts. It's not fair to the Skipper, the crew, the boat and the >> Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm saying? >> >> Tom >> >> --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM >> >> >> >> If you were a member of any yacht club, anywhere, there would be a >> record of it, as member info is part of the justification of being a >> yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or expensive his >> dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until proven >> otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes >> most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it >> and disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, >> verify with the club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying >> member at the time of registration for that race. As a member of a >> club myself, and our club's delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub >> Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees vary but one knows quite >> well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. Participation >> in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember observed >> rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes >> race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested >> interest, though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew >> could be concerned he wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. >> He could be resentful of something that happened on the trip. >> Regardless, if it matters, it still should be investigated, in the >> interest of integrity, no matter who or how wonderful this skipper >> may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand corrected. No >> point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks very >> insulting. Helen >> >> >> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> >> >> Interesting comments Mike. You did say Saraband experienced radio >> problems. As a ham operator myself I can vouch for the fact that in >> a salt water environment HF radios have problems sometimes so the >> fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of whether >> the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much >> you can do except try and fix it. >> I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's skipper didn't attend the >> ceremony. I don't find that significant without further information. >> >> I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the boat you were >> on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a good >> sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the >> 1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has >> 150,000 nm as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single >> Handed Transpac this year on Saraband. >> >> As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only >> thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's >> surely possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they >> should stop calling it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. >> >> As for the yacht club membership business, it's still hearsay with >> no evidence Mike. I can say it doesn't make sense to me though. >> There are local yacht clubs all over the Oregon coast. For $150.00 >> a year I could join the one where my boats are (Brookings, Or). I'm >> sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. >> >> I have never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever >> do I'll ask about the logs. >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM >> >> >> >> I was keeping positions of boats that we were competing >> against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon reported. >> Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few days, >> Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in >> much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run >> reported by Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her >> own weather system that no other boats experienced. I can't say she >> ran her engine. If the report was not accurate her navigator made a >> mistake. Or for some reason early reports were in error as were >> later reports. Why? >> As for my not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht >> Club after the trophy presentation which Saraband's owner did not >> attend. I believe the crew would know if there was a Yacht Club or >> not. I believed that the race committee was not interested enough to >> enforce the rules. Daily position reports were required. The race >> was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and if a protest >> was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in >> personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. >> Then you decide. >> My Best, Mike Farrell >> >> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 6:21:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >> >> >> >> No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. >> >> You're saying Sarband's skipper was not a member of a yacht club, >> yet still registered for the race and then you heard from someone >> else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems like that would >> have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like one >> phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask >> the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member >> of?” 1988 was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of >> that race, over 100 boats in all had finished it if I’m not >> mistaken. It sounds to me like they were pretty experienced and >> sophisticated to pull all of that off. >> >> I’m not sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with >> anything. Why do his position reports seem unlikely to you? He and >> his crew either sailed or they didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re >> implying? Are you saying he motored across the pacific high to save >> time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re lucky to get 5 >> knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with have any >> comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? >> Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they >> didn’t happen. Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed >> a W32 can reach. You have experience in open ocean sailing as do I >> and when boats are spread out over a huge distance, sailing >> conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper was claiming 250 miles >> a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I would not. >> >> You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do >> realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said >> the skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a >> blatant, deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t >> find much honor in that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be >> exposed at every opportunity whether it’s doping in sports or >> cheating at sailboat racing. >> >> I don’t mean to pick on you but you make some pretty strong >> accusations and I still haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a >> comment by a crew member. >> >> Tom >> >> >> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM >> >> >> >> I will give you an example that I have personal knowledge of. >> He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. In 1988 this >> was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew knew it >> and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present >> who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped >> early into the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio >> trouble was repaired his daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat >> to finish he became the overall winner. The Pacific Cup Race >> Committee was not sophisticated enough or experienced enough to ask >> the right questions. They did not do the job they should have done. >> Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. >> My Best, Mike Farrell >> >> From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >> >> >> >> Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail boats. As the >> current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little about >> the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both >> have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. >> After owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last >> summer. They are most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love >> them or you don't. I have always liked the traditional styling and >> they are way over built. Personally I like that sense of security >> when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am retiring in 3 years and >> my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only going to go down >> the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would have been >> a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler to >> sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years >> wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. >> >> The W32 has the ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, >> spares, etc. Her motion at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next >> to bullet proof and her standing rigging is extremely stout. She is >> not as fast as my Cal although on a long run with an equal amount of >> equipment the comparison would be interesting to see. Never the >> less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though so if >> it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been >> looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it >> was this one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last >> two years. Beta engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, >> running rigging, VHF, sail covers and hard dodger. She also has a >> stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. >> >> So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for >> one want to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the >> first I have EVER heard of that so please do share with the group. >> >> Well, I'll go back to lurking. Two more days and I get to go play >> with my boats. :) I better enjoy it now, my wife is going to make >> sell something one of these days. >> >> Tom >> >> Cal 2-34 Windsong >> W32 Anela >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net >> Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM >> >> >> >> Sorry--- last transmission lost. >> I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, This is the year the >> Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY irregularities. I >> believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He knows he did >> not win. >> I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did he disappear >> before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to close >> inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. >> My Best, Mike Farrell >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

Dear Correspondents - it would be a kindness to all to let this subject rest. It has been well discussed and I believe more than enough has been said, and repeated. Best Regards - your moderate Moderator.

mike farrell wrote: > > Dear Tom. > I really do get it. Calling my statements of fact trash, > here say, and hyperbole obscures the real issue. Chesterton said > "Circumstantial evidence is strong when there is a trout in the milk" > Hard proof was available: the truth was a casualty of a race committee > who did not do it's job and a competitor who played hard and fast with > the rules and got away with it. Hey, guys, while the Chesterton quotation is delightful, let's recall that this race took place 22 years ago, and we're not going to resolve anything by any more back-and-forths on the subject. Let's drop it. It's all my fault for even mentioning the Westsail name, which I did not imagine would provoke such extended discussion. Maybe we should take up some safe, noncontroversial subject like religion or politics. Chris Campbell

Message received My Best, Mike Farrell From: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 6:14:44 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Dear Correspondents - it would be a kindness to all to let this subject rest. It has been well discussed and I believe more than enough has been said, and repeated. Best Regards - your moderate Moderator. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Dear Chris. I became the "caregiver" of Cal20 #1114 about 3 years ago. Her spar had failed so she was on her 2nd mast which was replaced along with her wire in 1991-1993 as near as I can tell. I believed that loads were relatively light as compared to other boats and Cal 20's were overbuilt. A minute and a half into a Friday nite race in 3 foot waves and 22k on the nose Rambler's forestay let go with one hell of a bang. At the time her backstay was fully loaded and the jib halliard was set at about 800lb. The luff rope held and we got her back to the dock with the spinnaker halliard and the jib halliard as back up. In subsequent inspection the spar was kinked at the spreaders, work hardened and was replaced. Not counting labor which was considerable, my disregard for what I knew to be true, that wire and swedges have a working life of 7 to 10 years, cost about $1K Fortunately the spar was obtained from Steve Seal in Alameda. trailered to SF Marina on Rambler's boat trailer. The spar was dock tuned and 3 weeks to the day we finished 5m2s ahead of a J105 to take first honors. As I'm sure you realize corrosion caused deterioration in swedges that is not always apparent. The old test to look for cracks may not be enough. The loading is greatest on the forestay, backstay and aft lower shrouds. I am pleased the way everything has turned out: however this has been an expensive lesson that perhaps others can profit from. My Best, Mike From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 6:13:23 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Michael Kennedy wrote: The Transpac and its siblings are very fast sailing races and few sailboats could travel as fast under power as the average day sailing. When we went in '81, it was a fast year but, when boat speed dropped below 15 knots during the day, the watch below started sticking their heads out the hatch to see what happened and why it was so quiet. At night, we were hitting 22 knots regularly with the knotmeter going blank in the squalls, which came through every half hour. We did 2400 miles in 11 days 20 hours in a 40 footer. Not a ULDB, either. Wow, sounds like fun, especially on somebody else's boat. What kind of standing rigging replacement schedule is observed on boats pushed hard like that? This past week has been cool and breezy here in northern lower Michigan and it has been good sailing in the Cal 20. Wednesday night I had the choice of jib and reefed main, or storm jib and full main. Being lazy, I chose the latter. The reefed main option would have been more weatherly. Last night the wind a a bit lighter and the seas were larger rollers instead of the choppy square waves, so I went faster on main & jib, although a reefed main might have been better still. But when sailing in a good blow, I am always conscious that those little wires are all that's holding the mast up. On my other boat, I replaced the standing rigging when it got to be about 45 years old (hey, we're in fresh water and the boat is indoors for half of each year). The Cal 20 is 43 now, and it seems likely that the standing rigging is original --except for the backstay, which started to fail and now is oversized. And while I'm asking questions, why does the Cal 20 backstay, the least stressed of the various wires, fail first and most often? Strange. At any rate, when the wind is in the north and blowing hard, I tend to use the outboard to approach my mooring. I'll drop the jib in open water and sail in on the main usually, but in a blow, the opportunities for blunder and idiocy are too great. It's a fairly crowded mooring field. There's a busy restaurant and local yacht club close by on shore so any clumsy errors are going to be seen. Chris Campbell Chris Campbell Nobody can motor that fast. Even oversized spinnakers would probably be more trouble than they were worth. Mike Kennedy On Aug 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, mike farrell wrote: >Dear Tom, It will take some time to chronicle the events of >June and July of 1988. I will be glad to let this drop to the relief of Cal >boats. You enjoy heavy displacement boats, I enjoy light >displacement boats. If you feel that I disparaged Saraband's owner, that was >not my intention. There would be no doubt if the situation was looked into >at the time and place. If you feel that I somehow disapprove of Westsails, >you would be in error. You were not there. You did not race the 1988 >Pacific Cup. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller ><tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, August 19, >2010 11:36:46 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >I certainly agree with abiding by the rules Mike, but in my book you are >innocent until "proven" guilty. In my opinion at least a few here agree, >having your radio crap out for a few days, sailing your boat well and not >attending an awards ceremony does not constitute cheating, lying and lack of >honor. Even when there are mysterious "more factors involved in this >incident" but they can't be revealed. So, I guess we'll have to disagree and >move on much to the relief of the list members, but as you mentioned, I >stand by everything I have said as well. Tom --- On Thu, 8/19/10, mike >farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell ><ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Thursday, >August 19, 2010, 7:36 AM When a competitor enters a race he or she >agrees to abide by the rules. You sign an agreement to do so. It is not >fair to other competitors to evade or break rules. In 1988 no inspection was >done, no shafts were sealed. Things were not as well organized then. >Saraband did not make position reports for 8 days. Saraband's owner was not >present to be interviewed as he left Oahu . At the time, many had questions >that were not answered. There are more factors involved in this incident. >I stand by everything I have said. Mt Best, Mike >Farrell From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: >Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:29:53 PM Subject: Re: >[Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Does the Pacific Cup require >inspection of the boat, and keeping a log of engine run time to charge the >battery, or, measurement of the amount of fuel in the tanks before and after >the race? My guess is that sort of thing is left up to the Corinthian >expectation of all competitors, but such inspections and record keeping could >go a long way to keeping things fair, as, a whole lot of people have a lot of >time and money invested in such Herculean undertakings, if you want to call >such contests thus. Of course, I've never been in a race where such was the >expectation, that is, of measuring fuel usage by race committee. I was >once in a Cruiser Class race where there was no rules as to how long an >interval you could or could not run the engine (I asked the R.O. about it >when I noticed this), as contrast to, for example, the San Diego Race, where >it was written you had to run the engine in thirty minute intervals, >optionally for as many hours as you wanted between 8PM to 10AM the next day. >That was changed to two hours mandatory at once in one time slot (the San >Diego Race). I haven't done the other race (SB to KH) in some years so I >don't know it that was changed. Therefore, then, in the SB-KH you could motor >along in the dark until you thought you'd run into some wind, then shut down >the engine and sailed, as long as you kept tally of the total engine time >run, and it would be legal. Another thing I didn't like about the SB/KH race >is that they dinged you five seconds for having an outboard, the assumption >being you'd have an advantage that you would remove it from the transom and >stow it below (whether or not you intended to do such a thing, which I >don't do anymore...bad back, difficult, risky with my boat's layout, and >makes cabin interior cumbersome). Also,they only had one class for all >cruiser class racing. Naturally, the 70' IOR boats entered in cruising class >could finish the race before the winds died late at night, so, unless you had >a rare condition of all night long breezes, the smaller boats were screwed. >I contented myself with having beginners luck the first year I entered the >race, as we had winds that built to 30 knots in the afternoon, and the breeze >kept blowing at least into the high teens till we crossed the finish line at >12:30 AM, and I took first place. Jerry --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Tom Miller ><tm… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: >Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 5:42 PM I >agree for the most part Helen. If yacht club membership was required, >presumably the skipper had to enter that information when entering the race. >If he lied about it, it is easy enough to verify. You only address one of the >issues though. There is a pretty clear suggestion that the skipper cheated >by somehow getting these magical runs every day, withholding position reports >on purpose and falsifying positions. It kind of chaps me when a guy wins a >race and 20 years later one person says he cheated but only comes up with >vague suggestions. Particularly when that person uses language like "He >knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated." So, where >are the details? I hate to beat a dead horse here but you can't make >statements like without backing it up with facts. It's not fair to the >Skipper, the crew, the boat and the Pacific Cup in general. See what I'm >saying? Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] >1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, >August 18, 2010, 2:30 PM If you were a member of any yacht club, >anywhere, there would be a record of it, as member info is part of the >justification of being a yacht club. So if he was, regardless of how cheap or >expensive his dues or initiation fee, there will be the proof. So until >proven otherwise, if he didn't have the membership, he didn't. Sometimes >most admirable experienced people (nm included) can try to wing it and >disregard rules. Ask him directly for his club affiliation, verify with the >club as to whether or not he was a full dues paying member at the time of >registration for that race. As a member of a club myself, and our club's >delegate to PICYA (Pacific InterClub Yachting Association) I know clubs' fees >vary but one knows quite well to whom( one or more clubs) one pays ones dues. >Participation in YRA events involves following rules. If a crewmember >observed rules broken, the report should have gone to committee. Sometimes >race committees don't want to know, sometimes there is a vested interest, >though I'm sure that is few and far between. The crew could be concerned he >wouldn't get that flight back to the mainland. He could be resentful of >something that happened on the trip. Regardless, if it matters, it still >should be investigated, in the interest of integrity, no matter who or how >wonderful this skipper may be. If there was no broken rule, it should stand >corrected. No point in this list taking it out on each other, as it looks >very insulting. Helen From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: >Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 11:39:22 AM Subject: Re: >[Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband Interesting comments Mike. You >did say Saraband experienced radio problems. As a ham operator myself I can >vouch for the fact that in a salt water environment HF radios have problems >sometimes so the fact that they lost contact doesn't mean much regardless of >whether the rules call for it. If the thing doesn't work, there isn't much >you can do except try and fix it. I have no idea nor do you, why Saraband's >skipper didn't attend the ceremony. I don't find that significant without >further information. I can't comment on Saraband's progress compared to the >boat you were on. I do know the skipper is very experienced and apparently a >good sailor. He did finish in the top 3 overall two years later in the >1990 Pacific Cup so maybe he is just a better sailor. The guy has 150,000 nm >as a delivery skipper and he competed in the Single Handed Transpac this year >on Saraband. As for the race being poorly managed, I wasn't there so the only >thing I have to go on is their record and your observations. It's surely >possible that they botched everything though. Maybe they should stop calling >it the "Fun Race" and get serious about the rules. As for the yacht club >membership business, it's still hearsay with no evidence Mike. I can say it >doesn't make sense to me though. There are local yacht clubs all over the >Oregon coast. For $150.00 a year I could join the one where my boats are >(Brookings, Or). I'm sure it's the same deal in the Portland area. I have >never met Saraband's skipper but I would like to. If I ever do I'll ask >about the logs. Tom --- On Wed, 8/18/10, mike farrell ><ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband To: >Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Wednesday, >August 18, 2010, 2:40 AM I was keeping positions of boats that we >were competing against. When roll call came in, I charted the lat lon >reported. Early in the race Saraband ceased reporting. In the last few >days, Saraband gave a daily position that was near us we were sailing in >much lighter than average wind. We had no motor. If the daily run reported by >Saraband was accurate, she must have been sailing in her own weather system >that no other boats experienced. I can't say she ran her engine. If the >report was not accurate her navigator made a mistake. Or for some reason >early reports were in error as were later reports. Why? As for my >not reporting, I discovered the missing Yacht Club after the trophy >presentation which Saraband's owner did not attend. I believe the crew would >know if there was a Yacht Club or not. I believed that the race committee was >not interested enough to enforce the rules. Daily position reports were >required. The race was poorly run. It was not my obligation to protest and >if a protest was to be logged, the time to protest had expired. If you are in >personal contact with Saraband's owner get him to show you his log. Then you >decide. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller ><tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, >2010 6:21:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband >No offence Mike, but you’re not making sense. You're saying Sarband's skipper >was not a member of a yacht club, yet still registered for the race and then >you heard from someone else that he wasn't a member of any club? It seems >like that would have been really easy for the race committee to check. Like >one phone cal l maybe. You say they weren’t sophisticated enough to ask >the right questions? You mean like “What club are you a member of?” 1988 >was the 5th running of the race. By the completion of that race, over 100 >boats in all had finished it if I’m not mistaken. It sounds to me like they >were pretty experienced and sophisticated to pull all of that off. I’m not >sure what Saraband’s radio going out has to do with anything. Why do his >position reports seem unlikely to you? He and his crew either sailed or they >didn’t. I’m not sure what you’re implying? Are you saying he motored across >the pacific high to save time? Anyone who has motored a W32 knows you’re >lucky to get 5 knots out of the beast. Did the crew member you spoke with >have any comment on that or was he sticking with just the yacht club hearsay? >Because his daily runs seem unlikely to you does not mean they didn’t happen. >Many folks have been surprised at the sustained speed a W32 can reach. You >have experience in open ocean sailing as do I and when boats are spread out >over a huge distance, sailing conditions can vary greatly. If the skipper >was claiming 250 miles a day I would look askance at that. If it was 160, I >would not. You say Sarband finished last yet was the overall winner. You do >realize how the overall winner is selected don’t you? You also said the >skipper is not a man of honor, how about knowing or hearing of a blatant, >deliberate race infraction and not reporting it? I can’t find much honor in >that either Mike. Cheats and thieves should be exposed at every opportunity >whether it’s doping in sports or cheating at sailboat racing. I don’t mean >to pick on you but you make some pretty strong accusations and I still >haven’t seen any hard evidence other than a comment by a crew member. Tom >--- On Tue, 8/17/10, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike >farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: >Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Tuesday, >August 17, 2010, 3:13 PM I will give you an example that I have >personal knowledge of. He was not a member of a yacht club when he entered. >In 1988 this was a requirement that he conveniently overlooked. His crew >knew it and told me so in Oahu after the race. There were others present >who were party to the conversation. His position reports stopped early into >the race when he had radio trouble, when his radio trouble was repaired his >daily runs were unlikely. As the last boat to finish he became the overall >winner. The Pacific Cup Race Committee was not sophisticated enough or >experienced enough to ask the right questions. They did not do the job they >should have done. Saraband's owner is not a man of honor. My >Best, Mike Farrell From: Tom Miller <tm… [at] yahoo.com> To: >Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:07:18 PM Subject: Re: >[Cal_Boats] wetsnails Phew, sounds like a lot of talk about Westsail >boats. As the current owner of a Westsail 32 and a Cal 2-34, I know a little >about the two boats. In my opinion, other than the fact that they both >have big sticks with wires holding them up, they aren't much alike. After >owning the Cal for 18 years, I bought the Westsail last summer. They are >most definitely a "cult" boat. You either love them or you don't. I have >always liked the traditional styling and they are way over built. Personally >I like that sense of security when the weather gets really shi*&%. I am >retiring in 3 years and my wife and I are going cruising. If we were only >going to go down the coast to Mexico and putter around there, the Cal would >have been a better choice. She points higher and is generally much simpler >to sail. However, she was not really built to spend a couple years >wandering around the Pacific although many folks have. The W32 has the >ability to carry a much greater quantity of stores, spares, etc. Her motion >at sea is a lot smoother, her hull is next to bullet proof and her standing >rigging is extremely stout. She is not as fast as my Cal although on a long >run with an equal amount of equipment the comparison would be interesting to >see. Never the less, speed is also a safety factor. I am not a racer though >so if it takes a little longer, I'm OK with that. While I had been >looking at W32's for a number of years the thing that finally did it was this >one had all of the following equipment replaced in the last two years. Beta >engine, sails, chart plotter, standing rigging, running rigging, VHF, sail >covers and hard dodger. She also has a stainless steel bowsprit and boomkin. >So, in my opinion they are just different boats. By the way, I for one want >to see the evidence that Saraband cheated. This is the first I have EVER >heard of that so please do share with the group. Well, I'll go back to >lurking. Two more days and I get to go play with my boats. :) I better >enjoy it now, my wife is going to make sell something one of these days. >Tom Cal 2-34 Windsong W32 Anela --- On Mon, 8/16/10, mike farrell ><ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] wetsnails To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: >be… [at] prodigy.net Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 8:56 PM >Sorry--- last transmission lost. I sailed the Pacific Cup in 1988, >This is the year the Westsail allegedly won the race. there are MANY >irregularities. I believe that his "Win" is subject to investigation. He >knows he did not win. I can supply details! He lied, he cheated. Why did >he disappear before the awards ceremony? Answer: He could not stand up to >close inspection, his deception would have been discovered. SARABAND. >My Best, Mike Farrell > settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/join

mike farrell wrote: > > Dear Chris. > I became the "caregiver" of Cal20 #1114 about 3 years > ago. Her spar had failed so she was on her 2nd mast which was > replaced along with her wire in 1991-1993 as near as I can tell. I > believed that loads were relatively light as compared to other boats > and Cal 20's were overbuilt. I like that. > A minute and a half into a Friday nite race in 3 foot > waves and 22k on the nose Rambler's forestay let go with one hell of a > bang. At the time her backstay was fully loaded and the jib halliard > was set at about 800lb. The luff rope held and we got her back to the > dock with the spinnaker halliard and the jib halliard as back up. The only forestay I've ever lost (apart from my iceboat) was the one I burned through in a losing battle with an electric power line. > > > As I'm sure you realize corrosion caused deterioration in > swedges that is not always apparent. The old test to look for cracks > may not be enough. The loading is greatest on the forestay, backstay > and aft lower shrouds. My boat has always been in fresh water, and stored dry for half the year, so we have advantages here. But I'm puzzled about the backstay, which obviously must be loaded because it's the one that usually fails. But why? I tend to follow Charlie Husar's "looser is better" advice, probably less completely than he does (loose rigging flopping around makes me nervous), and the backstay always seems the floppiest of the parts. Is it because it gets loaded up from forces on the jib and forestay? My instinct is to worry about the shrouds because they look like they're working hard: the angles are acute and they are placed so close to the spar they are holding up. The backstay has a less acute angle, and is secured way back there on the transom...what an easy life. Or so it looks. By the way, I've never had a swage failure. Mine have been the backstay wire (Cal 20) and shroud wire (DN iceboat). Both were caught when strands parted and before total failure. The DN operates with very little margin in the rigging specs. It's a miracle that they don't break more often. Chris Campbell >

Dear Chris, I lost a mast in the Santa Cruz 27 nationals in 1989 on the Berkeley Circle when a lower failed at the deck level swedge. There was a "silent" recall that dealers and riggers knew about.. $5k Your observation about backstay failure is thought provoking, I will take it up with Steve Seal when I see him next. As for the sloppy rig, I have ceased letting the backstay off downwind and off the wind to the extent that I formerly did as I believe that it was a contributing factor in the failure of the forestay. I also ease the jib halliard to match what I have eased on the backstay so that the luff rope and the stay "match". I have installed a detachable 4'4" sprit upon which I set an asymmetrical chute. Coyote Cal20 #61 takes a 9 second PHRF hit. If the course is a triangle this really pays in under 15k true wind. A ddw course however is better served by an "S" chute and a pole that can be squared back. I am unsure if Coyote will sail next year with the "A" chute at 264 PHRF or the "S" chute at 273. Center of effort does not seem to be a problem and I await a 25k day and a beam reach to test the pucker factor. We lead our division in YRA so a conservative approach is called for. My Best, Mike ps. I really enjoy your observations and your sensitive treatment of conditions that you encounter. From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 11:06:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband mike farrell wrote: >Dear Chris. > I became the "caregiver" of Cal20 #1114 about 3 years ago. Her >spar had failed so she was on her 2nd mast which was replaced along with her >wire in 1991-1993 as near as I can tell. I believed that loads were relatively >light as compared to other boats and Cal 20's were overbuilt. I like that. A minute and a half into a Friday nite race in 3 foot waves and 22k on the nose Rambler's forestay let go with one hell of a bang. At the time her backstay was fully loaded and the jib halliard was set at about 800lb. The luff rope held and we got her back to the dock with the spinnaker halliard and the jib halliard as back up. The only forestay I've ever lost (apart from my iceboat) was the one I burned through in a losing battle with an electric power line. > > > As I'm sure you realize corrosion caused deterioration in swedges >that is not always apparent. The old test to look for cracks may not be enough. >The loading is greatest on the forestay, backstay and aft lower shrouds. My boat has always been in fresh water, and stored dry for half the year, so we have advantages here. But I'm puzzled about the backstay, which obviously must be loaded because it's the one that usually fails. But why? I tend to follow Charlie Husar's "looser is better" advice, probably less completely than he does (loose rigging flopping around makes me nervous), and the backstay always seems the floppiest of the parts. Is it because it gets loaded up from forces on the jib and forestay? My instinct is to worry about the shrouds because they look like they're working hard: the angles are acute and they are placed so close to the spar they are holding up. The backstay has a less acute angle, and is secured way back there on the transom...what an easy life. Or so it looks. By the way, I've never had a swage failure. Mine have been the backstay wire (Cal 20) and shroud wire (DN iceboat). Both were caught when strands parted and before total failure. The DN operates with very little margin in the rigging specs. It's a miracle that they don't break more often. Chris Campbell

mike farrell wrote: > > I await a 25k day and a beam reach to test the pucker factor. I'll confess to liking to sail on my own boat because I get to be boss, for better or for worse as my decisions may dictate. But at 25 knots and a spinnaker flying, _that's_ when I'd prefer being a humble crew on somebody else's boat! Chris Campbell

True, However others do not have 100k miles at sea. There is nothing that can compensate for time at sea, well used. My Best, Mike F From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, August 23, 2010 6:06:10 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 1988 Pacific Cup and Saraband mike farrell wrote: > I await a 25k day and a beam reach to test the pucker factor. > I'll confess to liking to sail on my own boat because I get to be boss, for better or for worse as my decisions may dictate. But at 25 knots and a spinnaker flying, that's when I'd prefer being a humble crew on somebody else's boat! Chris Campbell