made in china

And as we speak, the bridge sections being replaced on the SF-Oakland bridge between TI/Yerba Buena I. and Oakland are all specially made in and delivered from China. I took some photos from the water on a cruise-out to Treasure Island on July 4th weekend. Terrifies me to think our country/state is allowing this in the interest of affordability. We first drive all the steel manufacturers out of the country, (a lot like the plywood industry), then we cheerfully save ourselves all this money to have them fabricated overseas, then shipped back to us. (this way we can't see how it's done, physically or environmentally even though it is still being done on our planet) You can see the crushed scrap metal, cars. refrigerators, etc. being loaded on ships bound for foreign ports right out of Redwood City, to get a small picture of the beginning. The rest of the jobs and paychecks for the future use of those materials go right out the "Gate." Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing the vacant spaces. The job for us and this country is to figure out how to get it all back and become the self-sustainable country we used to be. #1, don't shop Walmart, until they give people fulltime jobs and benefits, so our country doesn't have to provide welfare benefits to their employees.(part-time jobs, another brilliant idea used to make the U.S. think that the job market had improved, achieved with the help of kickbacks to employers.)(One of Agnew's great thoughts).Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into their inventory. I really don't want to start this into a cal boats item of discussion, but it's close to home for me and my boats. Helen

On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > > Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, > and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the conversion of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the land was converted to housing, it stayed that way. > buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something else > or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing the > vacant spaces. Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading ultimately to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, where big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). We've abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into new housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. > Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or > Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into their > inventory. I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for free, but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s Depression and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an important distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. Chris Campbell

Chris, A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in China". Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in China". Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha ha fat chance. We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just rhetoric. Jerry --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the conversion of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the land was converted to housing, it stayed that way. buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing the vacant spaces. Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading ultimately to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, where big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). We've abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into new housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into their inventory. I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for free, but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s Depression and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an important distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. Chris Campbell

There is lots of blame to go around. In years past I owned and operated a German auto repair shop in Marin Co. 17 years. I used Snap On tools. Milwaukee WI-- Right? I loved the way they felt in my hands. A 7/8 wrench cost $48. Now I buy wrenches made in China --- A whole damn set for less than $48. In the instance of full disclosure my 2 kids are 1/2 Chinese. My present wife ( 3rd) is from another Asian country -- Viet Nam. She does not have a kindly view of the 1200 year intervention of China into Viet Nam. My grandmother,Dad's side born in Co Mayo. contributed money to the Shinn Fein, Gaelic for ourselves, alone (IRA) We need to stop listening to political persons and begin to take back control of our future from those who feed at the Public Trough at our expense. Do what you know is right! My Best, Mike. From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 1:01:34 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) Chris, A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in China". Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in China". Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha ha fat chance. We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just rhetoric. Jerry --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: >From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM > > > >On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > >> >>Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, and food) >>are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, >> A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the conversion of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the land was converted to housing, it stayed that way. buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing the vacant spaces. Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading ultimately to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, where big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). We've abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into new housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into their inventory. > I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for free, but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s Depression and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an important distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. Chris Campbell

I read with shock that the bridge was being built with steel produced in China. This is the type of stupidity that is leading us into a 3rd. rate country. My background is automotive going back to the early 50ys. and I have watched in horrer as we tried to play on an uneven playing field and watched foreign auto makers use every trick in the book to get a foot in the door ex. the Subaru Brat and the Love trucks had plastic seats bolted in the bed of the trucks so they didnt have to pay excise tax as comercial units or how many Hondas were bought back because there front suspensions rotted out making them unsafe especially up North where salt is used on the roads, or when the Renalt Aliance was named CAR OF THE YEAR .Now the Chinese are taking the ques from the other Asian auto manufacturers KIA andHYUNDA who are funded by the Korean government and they are dumped on our markets with cheep prices . We have to start taking care of our own futures and get off this cheep kick that has propeled us to the point we are at. Demand logic in what you buy and try to buy localy , ,its tough i know try buying a high energy or energy eficient light bulb that is made in theUSA .Sorry for the long venting, I better go sailing and try to forget but you can bet my vote is going to count!

This has nothing to do with sailing. You all are getting me riled up again. I feel compelled to mention that back when Japan started to kick the American car companies they were actually building better cars. At the same time, American auto executives were busy paying themselves huge salaries and pissing off their workers. There is an example I remember of a Ford trans-axial made both in the US and Japan. Same design but the one from Japan was better. Why? Because they constantly improved it in small ways while in the US, they just kept making it the same way. I have a Toyota, a Ford, and a Saturn. No question which is the highest quality: the US made Toyota. That just emphasizes that the US car companies did it to themselves. No other explanation. CEO's in this country are raping our fine companies. Too much of the results of what we collectively do in this country go to too few people. 1 in 1000 people make 1 out of every 8 dollars. They then buy the government as Miss eBay is trying to do here in California. Some of you high and mighty out there don't like Boxer but if you don't like taking a fine US company and trashing it, if you don't like outsourcing jobs, taking US products and switching production to China, or ruining the wonderful culture of a company, you should not vote for Carly F. I have heard her speak. I attended HP annual meetings. She spoke at my son's graduation. She sounds great and says nothing. I watched as she ruined HP. The only way I would vote for her is a vote for guilty if I was on a jury. It is impossible for Boxer to be worse. Impossible. If you don't know Carly and what she has done, you don't understand. Now, back to sailing. Or do you want me to really express how I feel? Allen On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 9:15 PM, <mo… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > > > I read with shock that the bridge was being built with steel produced in > China. This is the type of stupidity that is leading us into a 3rd. rate > country. My background is automotive going back to the early 50ys. and I > have watched in horrer as we tried to play on an uneven playing field and > watched foreign auto makers use every trick in the book to get a foot in the > door ex. the Subaru Brat and the Love trucks had plastic seats bolted in the > bed of the trucks so they didnt have to pay excise tax as comercial units or > how many Hondas were bought back because there front suspensions rotted out > making them unsafe especially up North where salt is used on the roads, or > when the Renalt Aliance was named CAR OF THE YEAR .Now the Chinese are > taking the ques from the other Asian auto manufacturers KIA andHYUNDA who > are funded by the Korean government and they are dumped on our markets with > cheep prices . We have to start taking care of our own futures and get off > this cheep kick that has propeled us to the point we are at. Demand logic in > what you buy and try to buy localy , > ,its tough i know try buying a high energy or energy eficient light bulb > that is made in theUSA .Sorry for the long venting, I better go sailing and > try to forget but you can bet my vote is going to count! > > >

Well put Allen. Buy the way, here is where you can find info on American made light bulbs. http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/CTGY/USABulbs Tom --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in China To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 10:14 PM This has nothing to do with sailing. You all are getting me riled up again. I feel compelled to mention that back when Japan started to kick the American car companies they were actually building better cars. At the same time, American auto executives were busy paying themselves huge salaries and pissing off their workers. There is an example I remember of a Ford trans-axial made both in the US and Japan. Same design but the one from Japan was better. Why? Because they constantly improved it in small ways while in the US, they just kept making it the same way. I have a Toyota, a Ford, and a Saturn. No question which is the highest quality: the US made Toyota. That just emphasizes that the US car companies did it to themselves. No other explanation. CEO's in this country are raping our fine companies. Too much of the results of what we collectively do in this country go to too few people. 1 in 1000 people make 1 out of every 8 dollars. They then buy the government as Miss eBay is trying to do here in California. Some of you high and mighty out there don't like Boxer but if you don't like taking a fine US company and trashing it, if you don't like outsourcing jobs, taking US products and switching production to China, or ruining the wonderful culture of a company, you should not vote for Carly F. I have heard her speak. I attended HP annual meetings. She spoke at my son's graduation. She sounds great and says nothing. I watched as she ruined HP. The only way I would vote for her is a vote for guilty if I was on a jury. It is impossible for Boxer to be worse. Impossible. If you don't know Carly and what she has done, you don't understand. Now, back to sailing. Or do you want me to really express how I feel? Allen On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 9:15 PM, <mo… [at] aol.com> wrote: I read with shock that the bridge was being built with steel produced in China. This is the type of stupidity that is leading us into a 3rd. rate country. My background is automotive going back to the early 50ys. and I have watched in horrer as we tried to play on an uneven playing field and watched foreign auto makers use every trick in the book to get a foot in the door ex. the Subaru Brat and the Love trucks had plastic seats bolted in the bed of the trucks so they didnt have to pay excise tax as comercial units or how many Hondas were bought back because there front suspensions rotted out making them unsafe especially up North where salt is used on the roads, or when the Renalt Aliance was named CAR OF THE YEAR .Now the Chinese are taking the ques from the other Asian auto manufacturers KIA andHYUNDA who are funded by the Korean government and they are dumped on our markets with cheep prices . We have to start taking care of our own futures and get off this cheep kick that has propeled us to the point we are at. Demand logic in what you buy and try to buy localy , ,its tough i know try buying a high energy or energy eficient light bulb that is made in theUSA .Sorry for the long venting, I better go sailing and try to forget but you can bet my vote is going to count!

The crane that places the sections there cost $40 Million to build--IN CHINA. From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 12:04:02 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] made in china And as we speak, the bridge sections being replaced on the SF-Oakland bridge between TI/Yerba Buena I. and Oakland are all specially made in and delivered from China. I took some photos from the water on a cruise-out to Treasure Island on July 4th weekend. Terrifies me to think our country/state is allowing this in the interest of affordability. We first drive all the steel manufacturers out of the country, (a lot like the plywood industry), then we cheerfully save ourselves all this money to have them fabricated overseas, then shipped back to us. (this way we can't see how it's done, physically or environmentally even though it is still being done on our planet) You can see the crushed scrap metal, cars. refrigerators, etc. being loaded on ships bound for foreign ports right out of Redwood City, to get a small picture of the beginning. The rest of the jobs and paychecks for the future use of those materials go right out the "Gate." Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing the vacant spaces. The job for us and this country is to figure out how to get it all back and become the self-sustainable country we used to be. #1, don't shop Walmart, until they give people fulltime jobs and benefits, so our country doesn't have to provide welfare benefits to their employees.(part-time jobs, another brilliant idea used to make the U.S. think that the job market had improved, achieved with the help of kickbacks to employers.)(One of Agnew's great thoughts).Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into their inventory. I really don't want to start this into a cal boats item of discussion, but it's close to home for me and my boats. Helen

> Canada and the Europeans have been better than we are at controlling sprawl, and they >have been better at maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. Exhibit B: Canada population is the size of New York on a territory that is almost twice the size of continental USA. All major cities except for a few are within a 200 mile strip of the US border. Put differently, the majority of the population is along a band of 500 miles from the 49th parallel. Out cities are no different then yours except for one factor. We did not have the same housing boom and crash and associated financial structures to support this with the concurrent collapse of same financial intuitions. With respect to urban planning and the value associated with natural spaces within those limits I would argue there is no difference. The main difference is that we have much more of the wide open spaces that everyone craves and we market it a tourist play. Example: I grew up in Hamilton. Great town to grow up in great town to leave. On Sundays we would go out into the country for a drive and then walk/hike what ever. Today, from Oshawa to St. Catherines is one urban corridor. The area known as the gold horseshoe as it supplied all the fruits and vegetables for the province is now an urban corridor some 300 miles long and approx 100 miles deep at its deepest part..sound familiar. Exhibit C: When Canada and the US moved off the gold standard, and I don't mean to be offensive here, China bought up most of the US assets, dollars and bonds....I'm not sure of the amount so wont state it to be safe. Lets just say its huge. In fact the largest holder of US currency is China. The estimate is that it will take 15 years for them to unload it. Most of our currency is floated internationally and randomly as our dollar is also no longer backed by the gold standard. Checked the price of gold this week. Foreign countries are buying as they are nervous. This impact urban development directly. Exhibit C: Most of Europe was destroyed. Thanks to the Marshall plan continental Europe was stabilized. I don't think most people understand how significant the effort and input of that plan was. Yes most German industries and technologies were imported to the States and Russia however Europe had a chance and took it to rebuild. So most major European cities are rebuilds with what remained of the historical settlements in its core. Then again, somethings don't change. Traffic is a mess in most European cities as they were simply not planned for vehicles. ie: Paris, London, Amsterdam, Venice, Berlin etc. Its a mess if you own a car. Wrt to vibrancy of cities..absolutely agree. Two main reasons. They've been at it a lot longer then we in the new world hence the value of culture is not displaced. Secondly most of the populations in Europe is urban as there is no space left. So cities are maturing and adapting at a far greater pace out of need not as we do it in NA based on profit. That is the key difference. In NA we approach urban planning from a capitalist bases where profitability is a major component. In Europe stuff needs to be paid for but it is not the driving factor in the design component nor planning phases. Its the opposite in NA. Wrt to farmlands, most are abandoning them as the last generation has no interest, selling off the land for huge amounts of money and coming to Canada and buying up the east and west coasts. At least they buy sailboats as well. Interestingly enough guess who outproduces both Canada and the US in terms of wheat production? France at a rate of 2:1 Blew me away when I read that. Sailing content: losts of good sailboats to be had as a result. Its a buyers market something that silly CDN owners have not figured out yet and asking silly prices for classic plastic. So they sit for three to four years till they sell if at all. Ain't seen nothing interesting from China....yet and hope I never do in the classic segment. /ch

More GM autos were produced in China in the last quarter than were produced in North America. Thank you Chris for your clear, unemotional view. North Americans and Californians in particular are infatuated with foreign products and believe that bad corporations in the US are to blame for America's woes. They become wealthy in America and then refuse to support American companies. Interested in themselves, they condemn the succeeding generations to low paying jobs while they heap blame on everyone from Teddy Roosevelt to John Mc Cain. Interesting! Rambler got a new bottom( Interlux paint made in USA) She splashes in about 3 hours. Season closer is next Sat. Rambler leads the DH Division with her 20 year old North Sails. Think what she could with some new carbon babies! $3300 Let's see. About the price of a couple of lattes every day for a year. How well do carbon sails wear (last) ? My Best Mike Cal 20 #1114 Rambler and Coyote Cal 20 #61 From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 18, 2010 5:46:13 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china > Canada and the Europeans have been better than we are at controlling sprawl, >and they >have been better at maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. > Exhibit B: Canada population is the size of New York on a territory that is almost twice the size of continental USA. All major cities except for a few are within a 200 mile strip of the US border.. Put differently, the majority of the population is along a band of 500 miles from the 49th parallel. Out cities are no different then yours except for one factor. We did not have the same housing boom and crash and associated financial structures to support this with the concurrent collapse of same financial intuitions. With respect to urban planning and the value associated with natural spaces within those limits I would argue there is no difference. The main difference is that we have much more of the wide open spaces that everyone craves and we market it a tourist play. Example: I grew up in Hamilton. Great town to grow up in great town to leave. On Sundays we would go out into the country for a drive and then walk/hike what ever. Today, from Oshawa to St. Catherines is one urban corridor. The area known as the gold horseshoe as it supplied all the fruits and vegetables for the province is now an urban corridor some 300 miles long and approx 100 miles deep at its deepest part..sound familiar. Exhibit C: When Canada and the US moved off the gold standard, and I don't mean to be offensive here, China bought up most of the US assets, dollars and bonds....I'm not sure of the amount so wont state it to be safe. Lets just say its huge. In fact the largest holder of US currency is China. The estimate is that it will take 15 years for them to unload it. Most of our currency is floated internationally and randomly as our dollar is also no longer backed by the gold standard. Checked the price of gold this week. Foreign countries are buying as they are nervous. This impact urban development directly. Exhibit C: Most of Europe was destroyed. Thanks to the Marshall plan continental Europe was stabilized. I don't think most people understand how significant the effort and input of that plan was. Yes most German industries and technologies were imported to the States and Russia however Europe had a chance and took it to rebuild. So most major European cities are rebuilds with what remained of the historical settlements in its core. Then again, somethings don't change. Traffic is a mess in most European cities as they were simply not planned for vehicles. ie: Paris, London, Amsterdam, Venice, Berlin etc. Its a mess if you own a car. Wrt to vibrancy of cities..absolutely agree. Two main reasons. They've been at it a lot longer then we in the new world hence the value of culture is not displaced. Secondly most of the populations in Europe is urban as there is no space left. So cities are maturing and adapting at a far greater pace out of need not as we do it in NA based on profit. That is the key difference. In NA we approach urban planning from a capitalist bases where profitability is a major component. In Europe stuff needs to be paid for but it is not the driving factor in the design component nor planning phases. Its the opposite in NA. Wrt to farmlands, most are abandoning them as the last generation has no interest, selling off the land for huge amounts of money and coming to Canada and buying up the east and west coasts. At least they buy sailboats as well. Interestingly enough guess who outproduces both Canada and the US in terms of wheat production? France at a rate of 2:1 Blew me away when I read that. Sailing content: losts of good sailboats to be had as a result. Its a buyers market something that silly CDN owners have not figured out yet and asking silly prices for classic plastic. So they sit for three to four years till they sell if at all. Ain't seen nothing interesting from China....yet and hope I never do in the classic segment. /ch

I agree with everyone's comments, but Jeeeeeezzzz, were talking about a bridge, in USA. The country that built the Golden Gate Bridge (which my 1st mate owns..in fact, he is now paying $60 a month to maintain it, not $ 50 a month as he was before the financial 'crises') the Verrazano, the gahd dayim BROOKLYN BRIGE (yeah,me first mate...ditto). I bought a Chinese made three way 2" motor valve, common in pool spa combos, or autmatic solar pool controls, and it is both simpler (simpillar?) and more reliable, and 1000% more intuitive and easy to adjust than the silly American version which costs almost twice as much. Aarrghh! Foo Wee. Ding How? Gung Ho American, Jerry

We could discuss all day about how the Republicans since Reagan have totally wiped out the middle class in this country with the lame notion of "trickle down". Tax breaks for the top 2%.....which has proven to have almost zero effect on job creation as it simply puts more money into their savings accounts. There's also their unfunded, illegal war. And how they have damaged manufacturing by offering incentives to companies to move their manufacturing off shore........and how they have blocked attempts to create a more equitable tariff environment on imported goods. (I understand that our products sold in China have something like a 40% tariff). And how Carly even has a chance of winning after ruining HP....what are people thinking? But that's not the purpose of this forum. Join the blog at MSNBC or Faux News and let's keep this sailing related. Bob Connell "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 Shilshole Bay, WA From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 1:01:34 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) Chris, A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in China". Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in China". Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha ha fat chance. We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just rhetoric. Jerry --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> wrote: >From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM > > > >On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > >> >>Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, and food) >>are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, >> A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the conversion of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the land was converted to housing, it stayed that way. buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing the vacant spaces. Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading ultimately to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, where big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). We've abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into new housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into their inventory. > I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for free, but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s Depression and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an important distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. Chris Campbell

полезный идиот !

I didn't realize I had stumbled into the DNC blog. Since I sold my boat I guess I have no reason to be here anymore. Mike Kennedy On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Bob Connell wrote: > > We could discuss all day about how the Republicans since Reagan have > totally wiped out the middle class in this country with the lame > notion of "trickle down". Tax breaks for the top 2%.....which has > proven to have almost zero effect on job creation as it simply puts > more money into their savings accounts. There's also their > unfunded, illegal war. And how they have damaged manufacturing by > offering incentives to companies to move their manufacturing off > shore........and how they have blocked attempts to create a more > equitable tariff environment on imported goods. (I understand that > our products sold in China have something like a 40% tariff). And > how Carly even has a chance of winning after ruining HP....what are > people thinking? > > But that's not the purpose of this forum. Join the blog at MSNBC or > Faux News and let's keep this sailing related. > > Bob Connell > "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 > Shilshole Bay, WA > > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 1:01:34 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > > > Chris, > A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European > vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are > locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in China". > Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in China". > Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. > > Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all > partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or > even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? > At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha > ha fat chance. > > We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just > rhetoric. > Jerry > > --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > wrote: > > From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM > > > On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > >> >> >> Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, >> and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, > > A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry > and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the conversion > of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that > this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other > circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the land > was converted to housing, it stayed that way. >> buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something >> else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing >> the vacant spaces. > > Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city > expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry > grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then > after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading ultimately > to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family > residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command > high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, where > big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). We've > abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable > buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into new > housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better > than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at > maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. >> Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or >> Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into >> their inventory. > > I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of > money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although > some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my > money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, > travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades > people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware > store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that > give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my > friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for free, > but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for > several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I > absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s Depression > and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an important > distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means > being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. > > Chris Campbell > > > > >

here here Mike. I am on this list for sailing content....Cal boats actually Mike Robinson > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: mi… [at] mac.com > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:57:16 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > I didn't realize I had stumbled into the DNC blog. Since I sold my > boat I guess I have no reason to be here anymore. > > Mike Kennedy > > > On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Bob Connell wrote: > > > > > We could discuss all day about how the Republicans since Reagan have > > totally wiped out the middle class in this country with the lame > > notion of "trickle down". Tax breaks for the top 2%.....which has > > proven to have almost zero effect on job creation as it simply puts > > more money into their savings accounts. There's also their > > unfunded, illegal war. And how they have damaged manufacturing by > > offering incentives to companies to move their manufacturing off > > shore........and how they have blocked attempts to create a more > > equitable tariff environment on imported goods. (I understand that > > our products sold in China have something like a 40% tariff). And > > how Carly even has a chance of winning after ruining HP....what are > > people thinking? > > > > But that's not the purpose of this forum. Join the blog at MSNBC or > > Faux News and let's keep this sailing related. > > > > Bob Connell > > "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 > > Shilshole Bay, WA > > > > > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 1:01:34 PM > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > > > > > > > Chris, > > A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European > > vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are > > locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in China". > > Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in China". > > Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. > > > > Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all > > partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or > > even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? > > At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha > > ha fat chance. > > > > We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just > > rhetoric. > > Jerry > > > > --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > > wrote: > > > > From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM > > > > > > On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed supplies, > >> and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, > > > > A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry > > and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the conversion > > of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that > > this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other > > circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the land > > was converted to housing, it stayed that way. > >> buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something > >> else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and reusing > >> the vacant spaces. > > > > Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city > > expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry > > grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then > > after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading ultimately > > to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family > > residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command > > high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, where > > big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). We've > > abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable > > buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into new > > housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better > > than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at > > maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. > >> Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or > >> Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into > >> their inventory. > > > > I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of > > money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although > > some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my > > money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, > > travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades > > people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware > > store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that > > give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my > > friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for free, > > but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for > > several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I > > absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s Depression > > and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an important > > distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means > > being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. > > > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Well, there are lots of places to talk politics. Roger Jones was well to the left of me politically but we never brought the subject up. I'm just as appalled that the bridge sections were built in China but politics is a funny thing. I have some guys working on my new house, union members by the way. One of them commented the other day about who sold the guidance technology for ICBMs to China when he was president. I hadn't brought any politics up because you never know what people think and often I'd just as soon not know. I was a lefty compared to those guys. Let's talk about sailing. Mike Kennedy On Sep 18, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Michael Robinson wrote: > here here Mike. I am on this list for sailing content....Cal boats > actually > > > Mike Robinson > > > > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > From: mi… [at] mac.com > > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:57:16 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > > > I didn't realize I had stumbled into the DNC blog. Since I sold my > > boat I guess I have no reason to be here anymore. > > > > Mike Kennedy > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Bob Connell wrote: > > > > > > > > We could discuss all day about how the Republicans since Reagan > have > > > totally wiped out the middle class in this country with the lame > > > notion of "trickle down". Tax breaks for the top 2%.....which has > > > proven to have almost zero effect on job creation as it simply > puts > > > more money into their savings accounts. There's also their > > > unfunded, illegal war. And how they have damaged manufacturing by > > > offering incentives to companies to move their manufacturing off > > > shore........and how they have blocked attempts to create a more > > > equitable tariff environment on imported goods. (I understand that > > > our products sold in China have something like a 40% tariff). And > > > how Carly even has a chance of winning after ruining HP....what > are > > > people thinking? > > > > > > But that's not the purpose of this forum. Join the blog at MSNBC > or > > > Faux News and let's keep this sailing related. > > > > > > Bob Connell > > > "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 > > > Shilshole Bay, WA > > > > > > > > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 1:01:34 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European > > > vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are > > > locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in > China". > > > Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in > China". > > > Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. > > > > > > Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all > > > partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or > > > even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? > > > At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha > > > ha fat chance. > > > > > > We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just > > > rhetoric. > > > Jerry > > > > > > --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed > supplies, > > >> and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, > > > > > > A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry > > > and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the > conversion > > > of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that > > > this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other > > > circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the > land > > > was converted to housing, it stayed that way. > > >> buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something > > >> else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and > reusing > > >> the vacant spaces. > > > > > > Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city > > > expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry > > > grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then > > > after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading > ultimately > > > to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family > > > residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command > > > high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, > where > > > big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). > We've > > > abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable > > > buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into > new > > > housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better > > > than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at > > > maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. > > >> Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or > > >> Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into > > >> their inventory. > > > > > > I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of > > > money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although > > > some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my > > > money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, > > > travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades > > > people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware > > > store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that > > > give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my > > > friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for > free, > > > but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for > > > several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I > > > absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s > Depression > > > and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an > important > > > distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means > > > being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. > > > > > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

Well Mike, Apparently our moderator has taken a long vacation, and we'll see if this message gets to the list. Regards, David Dobbs --- On Sat, 9/18/10, Michael Kennedy <mi… [at] mac.com> wrote: From: Michael Kennedy <mi… [at] mac.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris)(Mike) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 18, 2010, 6:52 PM Well, there are lots of places to talk politics. Roger Jones was well to the left of me politically but we never brought the subject up. I'm just as appalled that the bridge sections were built in China but politics is a funny thing. I have some guys working on my new house, union members by the way. One of them commented the other day about who sold the guidance technology for ICBMs to China when he was president. I hadn't brought any politics up because you never know what people think and often I'd just as soon not know. I was a lefty compared to those guys. Let's talk about sailing. Mike Kennedy On Sep 18, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Michael Robinson wrote: > here here Mike. I am on this list for sailing content....Cal boats > actually > > > Mike Robinson > > > > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > From: mi… [at] mac.com > > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:57:16 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > > > I didn't realize I had stumbled into the DNC blog. Since I sold my > > boat I guess I have no reason to be here anymore. > > > > Mike Kennedy > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Bob Connell wrote: > > > > > > > > We could discuss all day about how the Republicans since Reagan > have > > > totally wiped out the middle class in this country with the lame > > > notion of "trickle down". Tax breaks for the top 2%.....which has > > > proven to have almost zero effect on job creation as it simply > puts > > > more money into their savings accounts. There's also their > > > unfunded, illegal war. And how they have damaged manufacturing by > > > offering incentives to companies to move their manufacturing off > > > shore........and how they have blocked attempts to create a more > > > equitable tariff environment on imported goods. (I understand that > > > our products sold in China have something like a 40% tariff). And > > > how Carly even has a chance of winning after ruining HP....what > are > > > people thinking? > > > > > > But that's not the purpose of this forum. Join the blog at MSNBC > or > > > Faux News and let's keep this sailing related. > > > > > > Bob Connell > > > "Jollygood!", Cal 31, #59 > > > Shilshole Bay, WA > > > > > > > > > From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 1:01:34 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china(Chris) > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > A few years ago a sailing friend of mine got back from a European > > > vacation. He said when you go into stores there, the products are > > > locally made, he saw practically nothing that said "made in > China". > > > Here, there is practically nothing that doesn't say "Made in > China". > > > Boggles my mind that the new bridge is being out sourced. > > > > > > Can you imagine any of the other great bridges in America (all > > > partly owned by my first mate, I might add) built in the 1930s or > > > even in the 1970s, being made elsewhere? > > > At least the Chinese should come and fabricate the bridge here. Ha > > > ha fat chance. > > > > > > We desperately need real leadership in this country, not just > > > rhetoric. > > > Jerry > > > > > > --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Chris Campbell <cl… [at] charterinternet.com> > > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] made in china > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:54 PM > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/2010 3:04 PM, Helen Horn wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Makes me sick, I am also sorry that farmlands (jobs, seed > supplies, > > >> and food) are disappearing, orchards becoming housing, > > > > > > A few years before I moved to my current home, a region of cherry > > > and apple orchards, there was a newspaper article on the > conversion > > > of orchard lands into vacation homes. The article pointed out that > > > this area was uniquely suited, by geography, topography, and other > > > circumstances, to the growing of fruit crops, and that once the > land > > > was converted to housing, it stayed that way. > > >> buildings going empty and derelict while they mow down something > > >> else or build to the shoreline rather than repurposing and > reusing > > >> the vacant spaces. > > > > > > Exhibit A in that regard is Detroit, in my state. That city > > > expanded greatly in the 1920s and thereafter as the auto industry > > > grew. There were huge neighborhoods of attractive houses. Then > > > after mid-century it entered a dramatic decline, leading > ultimately > > > to the abandonment of a huge housing stock of nice single-family > > > residential structures, the kind of stylish buildings that command > > > high prices in more fortunate cities. Same with its downtown, > where > > > big downtown buildings (offices, hotels, etc.were abandoned). > We've > > > abandoned these areas with existing infrastructure, usable > > > buildings, and proximity to activity and converted farmland into > new > > > housing or office parks. Canada and the Europeans have been better > > > than we are at controlling sprawl, and they have been better at > > > maintaining vigorous and vibrant cities. > > >> Oh, yeah, and don't let Walmart become the only store in town (or > > >> Pestmarine, either) or you won't have a choice of what goes into > > >> their inventory. > > > > > > I'm a lucky guy with a stable, salaried job. I don't make a lot of > > > money (assembly-line auto workers made more than I did, although > > > some of the newer hires may not) but if I resist squandering my > > > money, there's enough left for the important things like boats, > > > travel, and hobbies. I've made it a point to buy from local trades > > > people and crafts people, to shop at the neighborhood hardware > > > store, and to patronize chandleries (even if online/catalog) that > > > give me better service than West Marine. I could con one of my > > > friends with a bigger truck into hauling my Cal 20 for me for > free, > > > but I choose to pay the local guy who has been kind to me for > > > several years and who needs the money in these hard times. Maybe I > > > absorbed ideas from my parents, who grew up in the 1930s > Depression > > > and knew about hardship and about helping out. There's an > important > > > distinction between being cheap and being frugal. The former means > > > being a tightwad. The latter means spending wisely. > > > > > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links