Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gas genset [ was Serious battery question

I'll add my $0.02 worth... Is this generator secured above decks while in use? Where/how is it stored when not in use? Same with spare fuel? Hopefully neither is kept in an unvented compartment below deck! Stored in the cockpit "might" be OK...... might not! How is it grounded? Is there a circuit breaker in the output? And/or a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter)?? How is the exhaust directed overboard? Carbon Monoxide concerns if the exhaust could get below. As an USCGAUX Vessel Examiner, I would express concern about finding a non-marine genset aboard a boat that had requested one of our VSC (Vessel Safety Check) exams, I would need to consult USCG Regs before being confident about awarding a Decal to that boat even if everything else was "shipshape". Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:37:59 -0400 Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> writes: Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny any claim. I also think you are taking a very big risk to have any non marine genset operating aboard a boat. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) From: Fin Beven To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 Mortgage Rates Hit 3.25% If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ca1123b872f3d5e832st03duc

Oh boy....I'm getting into trouble here...(shoulda kept me big mouth shut) 1. The units are typically stored below deck with no fuel in the tank, just oil, and the tank is properly vented prior to storage as fumes are more dangerous then liquid gasoline. . 2. The units are operated above deck only on as needed basis, typically in the cockpit. 3. The units are operated only to supply DC current to a dedicated charging circuit with appropriate marinco DC coupler build in typically in the cockpit. http://www.marinco.com/product/15a-125v-board-charger-inlet-black 4. The DC charging circuit is appropriately designed to take an external power supply with in line fuses and battery monitoring system ie: voltage gauge. 5. Since I'm running an Atomic 4 abundant fuel is available in the existing fuel tank and from additional approved plastic cans securely mounted on the rails. 6. The unit is grounded via the dedicated charging circuit via the marinco fitting to the ships ground. When in use a dedicated cable is used that couples the marinco fitting and generator. Wire size is over sized and all fitting are waterproof/explosion proof and approved. 7. The unit is typically placed on a couple of boards (hatch boards typically) that span the cockpit seats are firmly secured to ensure that exhaust is direct over board or downwind. Others use dedicated board that double as fender boards or rail boards to hold additional fuel or water tanks. 8. CO2 monitors are installed. (Home type that run on batteries) and suitably located to provide early detection of CO2 hazards 9. Fire suppression system is on board, by means of three dedicated fire extinguishers that are routinely inspected. One is located in the cockpit The intended use of the unit if to charge the DC system. Why, there is no power of fuel efficiency to run such a unit in AC mode. When on the hook, the only AC source I use is my laptop which is run off the DC system with a dedicated inverter. Alternatively when I find a suitable asus dc power supply (which is really silly as the existing unit converts AC to DC) there will be no need for AC. All other typical AC functions, grundig G5 receiver, dedicated boarding lights, etc are fun on AA batteries of which I carry an abundant supply. So the only use for AC when plugged into shore power is to charge the battery banks. I don't run hot water, nor refrigeration, nor pressure water. Systems however are all remain in place but intentionally disconnected for the eventuality that I decide to use them considering the additional electrical burden. So, what do you think, would I pass or fail, and if I fail what modifications can be done to comply with inspection requirements. best regards and thanks for the heads up. In all honesty, I am much more concerned about propane usage, that stuff is explosive and heavier then air. Moyer did a st /ch On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:51 PM, <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > > > I'll add my $0.02 worth... > Is this generator *secured *above decks while in use? > > Where/how is it stored when not in use? Same with spare fuel? Hopefully > neither is kept in an unvented compartment below deck! Stored in the cockpit > "might" be OK...... might not! > > How is it grounded? Is there a circuit breaker in the output? And/or a GFCI > (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter)?? > > How is the exhaust directed overboard? Carbon Monoxide concerns if the > exhaust could get below. > > As an USCGAUX Vessel Examiner, I would express concern about finding a > non-marine genset aboard a boat that had requested one of our VSC (Vessel > Safety Check) exams, I would need to consult USCG Regs before being > confident about awarding a Decal to that boat even if everything else was > "shipshape". > > Rod Johnson, > "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II > #10201 > former co-owner of "NODROG" > 1970 CAL 21 #285 > > On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:37:59 -0400 Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> > writes: > > > > Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the > boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny > any claim. > > I also think you are taking a* very big risk t*o have any non marine > genset operating aboard a boat. > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: > > I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I > have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at > fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough > batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I > use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. > Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I > have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > > > > On Radiant, I have the following: > > 1. Group 31 starting battery > 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) > 3. 60 Amp alternator > 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger > > My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I > like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED > lights except for navigation lights. > > My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. > > Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging > capacity prior to leaving. > > My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to > charge batteries. > > Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can > go without recharging. > > I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would > not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) > > Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to > the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, > assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts > before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a > weekend. > > Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 > > > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Mortgage Rates Hit 3.25%* > If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/4ca1123b872f3d5e832st03duc> > SeeRefinanceRates.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/4ca1123b872f3d5e832st03duc> > > -- /ch

Chris123 (to designate which Chris!) I had assumed that you were using the genset to provide AC power, using it really only for DC Battery charging would seem less hazardous in an electrical sense (lower voltage, marine cords used to connect, etc.) I'd still be concerned about storing unit below decks in a compartment not separate from living spaces (or inboard engine room), but as long as fuel tank is truly empty the risk is less (not sure about totally eliminated?). Unit still needs to be stowed in a way that it can't move around (like any heavy object). I too am concerned about typical Propane installations, especially any one that was owner installed or not done by a MARINE expert (and even some of them I'd wonder about!). Tanks are often installed/stowed where a leak could still send gas below decks, or else someone has added a new appliance with a "T" fitting outside the propane locker, instead of running a separate hose from the locker. My favorite propane story is the number of sailboat buyers who immediately replace a reliable A4 inboard with an expensive Diesel (no offense meant Joe) because the Diesel fuel is "safer", then turn around and replace the alcohol stove (if pressurized type I don't totally disagree with replacement!) with a Propane stove that may or may not have been installed correct. Or else they install a Butane stove (or portable "camp-type" Propane stove) and store the extra gas cylinders inside the cabin........ can you say BOOM!! In light of recent stories (at least in my local area?) of Propane being sold without the required "odor" added.......... I would be REAL scared about that. Want to see a real scary galley stove? There is a book that was published a few years ago about buying and fixing up an older fiberglass sailboat (the author used his "derelict" Venture 222 as the subject). He made a pretty neat little galley in the boat, but used one of those camping stoves that is just a gas burner mounted on top of a 16oz Propane cylinder.......and set the stove into the galley counter with the burner just about flush with the top and the cylinder located inside the galley "box", I don't recall if he had doors enclosing the galley box......but?? Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:02:30 -0400 chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> writes: Oh boy....I'm getting into trouble here...(shoulda kept me big mouth shut) 1. The units are typically stored below deck with no fuel in the tank, just oil, and the tank is properly vented prior to storage as fumes are more dangerous then liquid gasoline. . 2. The units are operated above deck only on as needed basis, typically in the cockpit. 3. The units are operated only to supply DC current to a dedicated charging circuit with appropriate marinco DC coupler build in typically in the cockpit. http://www.marinco.com/product/15a-125v-board-charger-inlet-black 4. The DC charging circuit is appropriately designed to take an external power supply with in line fuses and battery monitoring system ie: voltage gauge. 5. Since I'm running an Atomic 4 abundant fuel is available in the existing fuel tank and from additional approved plastic cans securely mounted on the rails. 6. The unit is grounded via the dedicated charging circuit via the marinco fitting to the ships ground. When in use a dedicated cable is used that couples the marinco fitting and generator. Wire size is over sized and all fitting are waterproof/explosion proof and approved. 7. The unit is typically placed on a couple of boards (hatch boards typically) that span the cockpit seats are firmly secured to ensure that exhaust is direct over board or downwind. Others use dedicated board that double as fender boards or rail boards to hold additional fuel or water tanks. 8. CO2 monitors are installed. (Home type that run on batteries) and suitably located to provide early detection of CO2 hazards 9. Fire suppression system is on board, by means of three dedicated fire extinguishers that are routinely inspected. One is located in the cockpit The intended use of the unit if to charge the DC system. Why, there is no power of fuel efficiency to run such a unit in AC mode. When on the hook, the only AC source I use is my laptop which is run off the DC system with a dedicated inverter. Alternatively when I find a suitable asus dc power supply (which is really silly as the existing unit converts AC to DC) there will be no need for AC. All other typical AC functions, grundig G5 receiver, dedicated boarding lights, etc are fun on AA batteries of which I carry an abundant supply. So the only use for AC when plugged into shore power is to charge the battery banks. I don't run hot water, nor refrigeration, nor pressure water. Systems however are all remain in place but intentionally disconnected for the eventuality that I decide to use them considering the additional electrical burden. So, what do you think, would I pass or fail, and if I fail what modifications can be done to comply with inspection requirements. best regards and thanks for the heads up. In all honesty, I am much more concerned about propane usage, that stuff is explosive and heavier then air. Moyer did a st /ch On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:51 PM, <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: I'll add my $0.02 worth... Is this generator secured above decks while in use? Where/how is it stored when not in use? Same with spare fuel? Hopefully neither is kept in an unvented compartment below deck! Stored in the cockpit "might" be OK...... might not! How is it grounded? Is there a circuit breaker in the output? And/or a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter)?? How is the exhaust directed overboard? Carbon Monoxide concerns if the exhaust could get below. As an USCGAUX Vessel Examiner, I would express concern about finding a non-marine genset aboard a boat that had requested one of our VSC (Vessel Safety Check) exams, I would need to consult USCG Regs before being confident about awarding a Decal to that boat even if everything else was "shipshape". Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:37:59 -0400 Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> writes: Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny any claim. I also think you are taking a very big risk to have any non marine genset operating aboard a boat. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) From: Fin Beven To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 Mortgage Rates Hit 3.25% If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program SeeRefinanceRates.com -- /ch

Comments in line... On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 8:51 PM, <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > > [Attachment(s) <#12b55d32bef5c90c_TopText> from rj… [at] juno.comincluded below] > > Chris123 (to designate *which* Chris!) > thanks...there's really to many of us.... > I had assumed that you were using the genset to provide AC power, using it > really only for DC Battery charging would seem less hazardous in an > electrical sense (lower voltage, marine cords used to connect, etc.) > That's the setup I would use. Others do it more simply. I was wrong. The units are run on deck. Most use the AC side to power the AC battery charging system via the shore power cord. I would have to do the math on that to determine which is more efficient. Some other day. > > I'd still be concerned about storing unit below decks in a compartment not > separate from living spaces (or inboard engine room), but as long as fuel > tank is truly empty the risk is less (not sure about totally eliminated?). > Unit still needs to be stowed in a way that it can't move around (like any > heavy object). > As posted previously, the standard setup in Rio Dulce is to have an air tight box build and stored permanently in front of the mast. The units are then sprayed with a non flammable anti-corrosive to prevent rusting of the older but better ex1000 units. When used remove from box, secure it, and then fire it up. > > I too am concerned about typical Propane installations, especially any one > that was owner installed or not done by a MARINE expert (and even some of > them I'd wonder about!). > Let me tell you about experts. I bought a 1970's something BMW RS1000 in the late 90's as that's when it became affordable. 4000.CDN. The difference between 120K and 160K was about a 1/4 turn on the throttle..she could move. So I drove it to the "expert" in all of Ontario to have it tuned as I just loved this thing and would not be concerned with the expense on the initial blueprinting of the machine. Everything back to factory tolerances was the plan. A day later he calls me and tells me the frame is bend and he cannot continue as its against his policy as it would be unsafe. After a long discussion where it was agreed that every bike of that era would have flexing in the frame to some degree he offered me a discount on a new bike at 3K but the same new model would now run me 12K. Ya right...just put it back together and give me a bill. Actually he wanted the bike as his buddy had rebuild it after an accident. Frame was fine. Now the expert, who was so concerned with my safety used the same bolts to bolt on the rear wheel. One problem. The rear bolts are designed to be expandable at 92lbs/inch torque and must be replaced once they are cracked open. So I'm cruising home at 150K when the bike starts to seriously vibrate. As Ive been tossed by a couple of bikes in my youth I throttled off, no brakes and got it stable at 120K, Thinking it was the road at first, but no, brand new ashpalt. Bike starts to wobble at 120K...soooo coast out no brakes, no gearing and let it come to rest. Check the rear bolts, three threads per bolt time 5. I was ready to do some serious damage. So Ive learned, experts are few and those that you meet, you respect them. Hence I take Joe's concerns seriously, maybe not to the same degree of passion as he does, but have to consider his perspective. The other approach is to learn as much as you can and do it yourself. The nice thing about learning is, you learn from others...:) > Tanks are often installed/stowed where a leak could still send gas below > decks, or else someone has added a new appliance with a "T" fitting outside > the propane locker, instead of running a separate hose from the locker. > I don't understand why people are so careless with propane. I just don't get it. > My favorite propane story is the number of sailboat buyers who immediately > replace a reliable A4 inboard with an expensive Diesel (no offense meant > Joe) because the Diesel fuel is "safer", > You do know that that is a crock...;) but many don't. I would take an A-4 over a diesel any day with the caveat being where I plan to take the boat. Gasoline is extremely dirty in some places and hard to find in others. So a diesel remains an option pending on cruising grounds. > then turn around and replace the alcohol stove (if pressurized type I don't > totally disagree with replacement!) with a Propane stove that may or may not > have been installed correct. Or else they install a Butane stove (or > portable "camp-type" Propane stove) and store the extra gas cylinders inside > the cabin........ can you say BOOM!! In light of recent stories (at least in > my local area?) of Propane being sold without the required "odor" > added.......... I would be REAL scared about that. > So would I. Where are they considering removing the odor? That is ludicrous. > > Want to see a real scary galley stove? There is a book that was published a > few years ago about buying and fixing up an older fiberglass sailboat (the > author used his "derelict" Venture 222 as the subject). He made a pretty > neat little galley in the boat, but used one of those camping stoves that is > just a gas burner mounted on top of a 16oz Propane cylinder.......and set > the stove into the galley counter with the burner just about flush with the > top and the cylinder located inside the galley "box", I don't recall if he > had doors enclosing the galley box......but?? > That's funny. I did the same to a degree. I took out the origo alcohol 2 burner stove, gave it back to Les and replaced it with a simple Coleman 2 burner propane stove as the heat supply was double at 1/5 the cost. I was lucky and got a 25lbs fibreglass bottle filled from HD for 35CDN. Off eBay I purchased an adaptor to recharge the green propane bottles. Served me well all winter. Caveat. Bottles were filled outside with the hatch boards in place. All bottles were stored outside. Remember it was winter so this affects the viscosity of propane. All cooking was done with the main hatch open with me parka on. The only problem i ran into was the day i was making soup in the pressure cooker for the first time. Good idea, till it comes time to release the pressure. Instant rain forest and clouds...too funny. Other then that there were no issues. I would not however use this system in the summer as its simply to volatile. I wanted to test various things and it all worked out. When the time is right the bottle will be hardwired from a proper locker with appropriate safety systems in place. I just don't like propane, unfortunately its become the standard. My backup stove is a older model Coleman multi fuel. Burns anything from drinkable alcohol to more traditional standard fuels..:) good thing is it doesn't like beer. /ch

I don't think it was a intentional choice, it was "accidental"? This was gas that was coming in off the street, and the lack of smell meant that a crew building a condo complex in Norfolk, MA didn't get a warning of a leaking pipe...... instant destruction of building! I think the case may go to court.....but has definitely caused a few "recalls" of recently filled propane tanks in the region. Check Boston Globe articles for more info. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" odor" added.......... I would be REAL scared about that. So would I. Where are they considering removing the odor? That is ludicrous. Want to see a real scary galley stove? There is a book that was published a few years ago about /ch Refinance Now 3.7% FIXED $160,000 Mortgage for $547/mo. FREE. No Obligation. Get 4 Quotes! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ca14fb88fba1d41b25st04duc

On 9/27/2010 8:51 PM, rj… [at] juno.com wrote: > My favorite propane story is the number of sailboat buyers who > immediately replace a reliable A4 inboard with an expensive Diesel (no > offense meant Joe) because the Diesel fuel is "safer", then turn > around and replace the alcohol stove (if pressurized type I don't > totally disagree with replacement!) with a Propane stove that may or > may not have been installed correct. Or else they install a Butane > stove (or portable "camp-type" Propane stove) and store the extra gas > cylinders inside the cabin........ can you say BOOM!! In light of > recent stories (at least in my local area?) of Propane being sold > without the required "odor" added.......... I would be REAL scared > about that. On our local schooner, we have a sea-swing type stove below that has a burner with a propane canister hanging beneath it. Once when we were over in Wisconsin at anchor in a small harbor, somebody was having trouble with the stove and called the captain below for advice. I can still see the captain emerging from the main cabin as though he had levitated, grasping the canister and a portion of the burner with propane spewing out, and giving it a big heave overboard. Quite a sight. I can also recall the time a co-worker decided to assist the ignition of trash in a burn barrel with gasoline. Trash in. Gasoline in. Pause for finding and lighting a match (and, it turns out, for the gas to vaporize nicely). The vertical range of the trash as it emerged from the burn barrel was impressive. In my very late middle age, I have become much more cautious about explosive substances. Chris Campbell >