Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot

I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. They like to add 2,000 pounds for gear although mine is pretty spartan with no stove, no bunks, no door on the head, etc. I am thinking they are being overly conservative but thought I would ask if anyone on this list has experience good or bad with the Simrad tiller auto pilots. I sail in San Francisco Bay and it is day sailing only. The problem with the old one is that if it ever gets off about 15 degrees, it gets lost and goes the wrong way. It is also a pain in the butt to set up and use but it does work most of the time. Allen

be conservative. you never know when you'll need the extra advantage. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:28:01 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. They like to add 2,000 pounds for gear although mine is pretty spartan with no stove, no bunks, no door on the head, etc. I am thinking they are being overly conservative but thought I would ask if anyone on this list has experience good or bad with the Simrad tiller auto pilots. I sail in San Francisco Bay and it is day sailing only. The problem with the old one is that if it ever gets off about 15 degrees, it gets lost and goes the wrong way. It is also a pain in the butt to set up and use but it does work most of the time. Allen

Conservative would be don't use an auto pilot in this case as the TP32 is the strongest one that Simrad makes. You are apparently of like mind to the guy at Simrad. Allen On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:36 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > > > be conservative. you never know when you'll need the extra advantage. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:28:01 -0700 > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot > > > > I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my > (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they > said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 > feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. They like to add > 2,000 pounds for gear although mine is pretty spartan with no stove, no > bunks, no door on the head, etc. I am thinking they are being overly > conservative but thought I would ask if anyone on this list has experience > good or bad with the Simrad tiller auto pilots. I sail in San Francisco Bay > and it is day sailing only. The problem with the old one is that if it ever > gets off about 15 degrees, it gets lost and goes the wrong way. It is also > a pain in the butt to set up and use but it does work most of the time. > > Allen > > > >

Why is he saying its not strong enough? Look at this data. "With a peak thrust of up to 85kg (187lbs) and a lock-to-lock speed of 4.7 secs with a 20kg (44lbs) load the Simrad TP32 exhibits a truly powerful performance." So I ask you, when are you going to need more then 187lbs of thrust on the tiller if she is balanced properly. The use of an auto pilot is to hold course with minor corrections. They are not designed to steer a vessel which some attempt to do. Perhaps that's the level of safely and margin of error that he is referring too. Most of the cruising folks Ive met or read on line prefer the Simrad unit to others on the tiller. I have no experience with tiller pilots. I do have a raymarine X-5 system on my 29 and it seems to work fine when properly tuned. The drive assembly seems a little flimsy so we will see how long this unit lasts. The computer is pretty slick and has algorithms for tacking based on wind direction and speed inputs but I would not want to go to far with these feature on a 29. That involves a lot of forces that I don't want to apply to the unit. I'd rather have it last longer by using it only on long runs on a set course. Instead my preferred use over a day is to load the gpx file, the autopilot will chime when its time for the next course correction, confirm that course correction manually, set the new course manually, and then engage the autopilot. Less risky on the unit, the driver and the boat. Others with more experience may wish to comment. What I'm getting at is there should be plenty of power in the unit for a day sail pending on how you use it. If you use it for its intended purpose, the numbers don't suggest any issues IMHO. /ch On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Allen Edwards < al… [at] paloaltophoto.com> wrote: > > > I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) > old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their > TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long > and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. >

Everything depends on everything. "Fit for purpose" is a common phrase in my world. Properly set up an auto pilot should not see much force at all, the killer is the duty- Is the pilot robust enough to work many hours without burning up or eating gears or motors? If my boat is correctly trimmed, it will sail for many many hours or days without touching the tiller - I've done it. Before recommending an autopilot, more would need to be understood as to what you want it to do. In 2000 on our 3,000 mile trip from Hawaii we used an autohelm 2000+ tiller pilot, while undersized it performed perfectly, we did not stress it out with a hard to steer course. The hours the pilot was not used we tied off the helm. This setup worked until there was large wind shifts. We were sailing between 31 and 55 degrees apparent in wind from 17 to 30 knots. In 2004 we went to the autohelm 4000st Tiller Pilot- this unit is very -very robust and a more "permanent" solution. The 4000 was so wacky "Crazy Ivan" on our trip - that we turned it off, tied off the helm, and steered the Slocum way. It turned out that the 4000 is very sensitive to compass placement, a dark science. After a number of compass moves the unit performs okay. We now use it for motoring jobs with our chart plotter. One big job for it is following the 93 waypoints from Astoria up the Columbia River to our Portland home. The 4000 drives from waypoint to waypoint perfectly, while I just sit there and agree with it. In 2007, 2008 we used a Monitor wind vane. BY far this is the most elegant sailing solution - fast, no electrical energy use, and fun to watch. My point is that a lighter duty unit could work depending on what you expect the pilot to do or not at all if you expect it to "everything" dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:29 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot Conservative would be don't use an auto pilot in this case as the TP32 is the strongest one that Simrad makes. You are apparently of like mind to the guy at Simrad. Allen On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:36 PM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com<mailto:my… [at] hotmail.com>> wrote: be conservative. you never know when you'll need the extra advantage. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> From: al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:28:01 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. They like to add 2,000 pounds for gear although mine is pretty spartan with no stove, no bunks, no door on the head, etc. I am thinking they are being overly conservative but thought I would ask if anyone on this list has experience good or bad with the Simrad tiller auto pilots. I sail in San Francisco Bay and it is day sailing only. The problem with the old one is that if it ever gets off about 15 degrees, it gets lost and goes the wrong way. It is also a pain in the butt to set up and use but it does work most of the time. Allen

Thanks for the comments. My thoughts exactly except it isn't even hard to turn Papoose in a tack so I would not think it would be hard for an autopilot to do. I think the big issue was large seas and specifically following seas. My biggest concern is taking the sails down in 30kt where the boat wants desperately to spin around and back into the wind. Those are the conditions that I fear when going out alone. You might note if you read the Simrad literature on their site that the advertising literature says for boats up to 39 feet but the technical literature says 35 feet. I am wondering if this whole thing is based on the reality that there is a problem with the unit. That is why I thought maybe someone on this list was using it on a 40 or something and could tell me their experience. The issue with the thrust numbers is that they are not applied at the end of the tiller so there is a multiplying effect due to the decreased leverage at the auto pilot attachment point. Thus I have a hard time relating to the numbers. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 7:56 AM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Why is he saying its not strong enough? Look at this data. > > "With a peak thrust of up to 85kg (187lbs) and a lock-to-lock speed of 4.7 > secs with a 20kg (44lbs) load the Simrad TP32 exhibits a truly powerful > performance." > > So I ask you, when are you going to need more then 187lbs of thrust on the > tiller if she is balanced properly. The use of an auto pilot is to hold > course with minor corrections. They are not designed to steer a vessel which > some attempt to do. Perhaps that's the level of safely and margin of error > that he is referring too. > > Most of the cruising folks Ive met or read on line prefer the Simrad unit > to others on the tiller. > > I have no experience with tiller pilots. I do have a raymarine X-5 system > on my 29 and it seems to work fine when properly tuned. The drive assembly > seems a little flimsy so we will see how long this unit lasts. The computer > is pretty slick and has algorithms for tacking based on wind direction and > speed inputs but I would not want to go to far with these feature on a 29. > That involves a lot of forces that I don't want to apply to the unit. I'd > rather have it last longer by using it only on long runs on a set course. > > Instead my preferred use over a day is to load the gpx file, the autopilot > will chime when its time for the next course correction, confirm that course > correction manually, set the new course manually, and then engage the > autopilot. Less risky on the unit, the driver and the boat. Others with more > experience may wish to comment. > > What I'm getting at is there should be plenty of power in the unit for a > day sail pending on how you use it. If you use it for its intended purpose, > the numbers don't suggest any issues IMHO. > > > /ch > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Allen Edwards < > al… [at] paloaltophoto.com> wrote: > >> >> >> I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) >> old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their >> TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long >> and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. >> > > >

I've used the Simrad 32 on Radiant (formerly made by someone else, but I can't remember whom). For the TransPac return in 2005, the crew started with my "old one", probably 8 - 10 years old. It "died" half-way home, after being drenched several times each day. The put in the new spare, used it for the rest of the trip, I'm still using it, and it's working fine. In mid-July I used it on a trip to Catalina on a Friday afternoon. The breeze was gusting over 20, and I was using the 155. Way over-powered. I was alone, and did not want to do a sail-change. The 32 worked just fine, again. I just eased down the main traveler, and eased the main sheet a bit. I would have done the same if I had been hand-steering. For the price, it's great. If you want near-perfection, here's the solution that Stan Honey uses: http://www.alphamarinesystems.com/price_list.htm<http://www.alphamarinesystems.com/price_list.htm> Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards<mailto:al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot Thanks for the comments. My thoughts exactly except it isn't even hard to turn Papoose in a tack so I would not think it would be hard for an autopilot to do. I think the big issue was large seas and specifically following seas. My biggest concern is taking the sails down in 30kt where the boat wants desperately to spin around and back into the wind. Those are the conditions that I fear when going out alone. You might note if you read the Simrad literature on their site that the advertising literature says for boats up to 39 feet but the technical literature says 35 feet. I am wondering if this whole thing is based on the reality that there is a problem with the unit. That is why I thought maybe someone on this list was using it on a 40 or something and could tell me their experience. The issue with the thrust numbers is that they are not applied at the end of the tiller so there is a multiplying effect due to the decreased leverage at the auto pilot attachment point. Thus I have a hard time relating to the numbers. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 7:56 AM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com<mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: Why is he saying its not strong enough? Look at this data. "With a peak thrust of up to 85kg (187lbs) and a lock-to-lock speed of 4.7 secs with a 20kg (44lbs) load the Simrad TP32 exhibits a truly powerful performance." So I ask you, when are you going to need more then 187lbs of thrust on the tiller if she is balanced properly. The use of an auto pilot is to hold course with minor corrections. They are not designed to steer a vessel which some attempt to do. Perhaps that's the level of safely and margin of error that he is referring too. Most of the cruising folks Ive met or read on line prefer the Simrad unit to others on the tiller. I have no experience with tiller pilots. I do have a raymarine X-5 system on my 29 and it seems to work fine when properly tuned. The drive assembly seems a little flimsy so we will see how long this unit lasts. The computer is pretty slick and has algorithms for tacking based on wind direction and speed inputs but I would not want to go to far with these feature on a 29. That involves a lot of forces that I don't want to apply to the unit. I'd rather have it last longer by using it only on long runs on a set course. Instead my preferred use over a day is to load the gpx file, the autopilot will chime when its time for the next course correction, confirm that course correction manually, set the new course manually, and then engage the autopilot. Less risky on the unit, the driver and the boat. Others with more experience may wish to comment. What I'm getting at is there should be plenty of power in the unit for a day sail pending on how you use it. If you use it for its intended purpose, the numbers don't suggest any issues IMHO. /ch On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] paloaltophoto.com<mailto:al… [at] paloaltophoto.com>> wrote: I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds.

Perfect testimonial. Just what I was looking for. Sounds like it would be fine in my application. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: > > > I've used the Simrad 32 on Radiant (formerly made by someone else, but I > can't remember whom). For the TransPac return in 2005, the crew started > with my "old one", probably 8 - 10 years old. It "died" half-way home, > after being drenched several times each day. The put in the new spare, used > it for the rest of the trip, I'm still using it, and it's working fine. > > In mid-July I used it on a trip to Catalina on a Friday afternoon. The > breeze was gusting over 20, and I was using the 155. Way over-powered. I > was alone, and did not want to do a sail-change. The 32 worked just fine, > again. I just eased down the main traveler, and eased the main sheet a > bit. I would have done the same if I had been hand-steering. > > For the price, it's great. > > If you want near-perfection, here's the solution that Stan Honey uses: > http://www.alphamarinesystems.com/price_list.htm > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 9:16 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot > > Thanks for the comments. My thoughts exactly except it isn't even hard to > turn Papoose in a tack so I would not think it would be hard for an > autopilot to do. I think the big issue was large seas and specifically > following seas. My biggest concern is taking the sails down in 30kt where > the boat wants desperately to spin around and back into the wind. Those are > the conditions that I fear when going out alone. > > You might note if you read the Simrad literature on their site that the > advertising literature says for boats up to 39 feet but the technical > literature says 35 feet. I am wondering if this whole thing is based on the > reality that there is a problem with the unit. That is why I thought maybe > someone on this list was using it on a 40 or something and could tell me > their experience. > > The issue with the thrust numbers is that they are not applied at the end > of the tiller so there is a multiplying effect due to the decreased leverage > at the auto pilot attachment point. Thus I have a hard time relating to the > numbers. > > Allen > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 7:56 AM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> Why is he saying its not strong enough? Look at this data. >> >> "With a peak thrust of up to 85kg (187lbs) and a lock-to-lock speed of 4.7 >> secs with a 20kg (44lbs) load the Simrad TP32 exhibits a truly powerful >> performance." >> >> So I ask you, when are you going to need more then 187lbs of thrust on the >> tiller if she is balanced properly. The use of an auto pilot is to hold >> course with minor corrections. They are not designed to steer a vessel which >> some attempt to do. Perhaps that's the level of safely and margin of error >> that he is referring too. >> >> Most of the cruising folks Ive met or read on line prefer the Simrad unit >> to others on the tiller. >> >> I have no experience with tiller pilots. I do have a raymarine X-5 system >> on my 29 and it seems to work fine when properly tuned. The drive assembly >> seems a little flimsy so we will see how long this unit lasts. The computer >> is pretty slick and has algorithms for tacking based on wind direction and >> speed inputs but I would not want to go to far with these feature on a 29. >> That involves a lot of forces that I don't want to apply to the unit. I'd >> rather have it last longer by using it only on long runs on a set course. >> >> Instead my preferred use over a day is to load the gpx file, the autopilot >> will chime when its time for the next course correction, confirm that course >> correction manually, set the new course manually, and then engage the >> autopilot. Less risky on the unit, the driver and the boat. Others with more >> experience may wish to comment. >> >> What I'm getting at is there should be plenty of power in the unit for a >> day sail pending on how you use it. If you use it for its intended purpose, >> the numbers don't suggest any issues IMHO. >> >> >> /ch >> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Allen Edwards < >> al… [at] paloaltophoto.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my >>> (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they >>> said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 >>> feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. >>> >> >> > >

On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA

Can you present a use case as we used to say in the IT world for the autopilot. Perhaps some more information on intended usage and usage patterns would help sort it out as you started to do in this post. Wrt to Simard reliability, get on you cruiser forum of choice and ask. I think you will find that its more then 2:1=simrad:raymarine. At lest that's what I get from the those data sources. Since your into it and have the talent, you can calculate the vectors at the helm based on the data given so give you an idea of the operating range of the unit. Whats its called international moment of something like that. Me physics bad. The simplest way to sort this problem is how do stuff. Buy it from Westmarine, test it and take it back if does not meet your requirements. Simple. Satisfaction warranties are so nice at times when you lay down some hard earned cash. Regards /ch

Fin, I don't know if this would be classified as wisdom, but there are a few things that I would want to check. First, I'm assuming that you start on the house battery and then either have a battery combiner that allows both batteries to be charged, or put your switch in both. I'm also assuming that you would put the new house battery in parallel with the existing one, although I'm not convinced that is the best approach - in a parallel situation when one battery goes it usually takes the other with it so you end up having to change both batteries when one dies. I'm also going to assume that with the additional battery you are going to take advantage of it and use more energy between charges. If that is not the case, then the impact would be small in that you would be replacing the same amount of energy as before, just putting half of the amount in each of two batteries rather than one. Under that circumstance I would not expect currents to be much higher for much longer.

It won't hurt the batteries to charge them slowly and they will get to full charge as long as you have more than the self drain current into the battery. I also doubt you will hurt the alternator. You are unlikely to run your engine for the many hours required to charge them up anyway. Have you considered an ice chest instead of a refrigerator? A block of ice will last longer than what you need. then you won't need any more batteries. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: > > > On Radiant, I have the following: > > 1. Group 31 starting battery > 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) > 3. 60 Amp alternator > 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger > > My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I > like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED > lights except for navigation lights. > > My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. > > Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging > capacity prior to leaving. > > My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to > charge batteries. > > Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can > go without recharging. > > I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would > not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) > > Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to > the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, > assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts > before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a > weekend. > > Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > > > >

The only "weak link" I'm concerned about is the alternator. Does anyone know, with certainty, what could happen with a 60 amp alternator confronted with two (or three or four) 4-D batteries, with an initial voltage at 11.8 volts, when the alternator starts charging. Should this be a problem ? Could this be a problem ? Can this scenario "over extend" what the alternator should be able to do, and potentially causing the alternator to over-heat and possibly fail. The real questions is: Is there "science" on this ?? Fin. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards<mailto:al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question It won't hurt the batteries to charge them slowly and they will get to full charge as long as you have more than the self drain current into the battery. I also doubt you will hurt the alternator. You are unlikely to run your engine for the many hours required to charge them up anyway. Have you considered an ice chest instead of a refrigerator? A block of ice will last longer than what you need. then you won't need any more batteries. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com<mailto:fi… [at] msn.com>> wrote: On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA

There is certainly no issue with running it into any load at 11.8 volts, it doesn't care how many batteries are there. My only concern would be running it for a long time to charge up the battery. But if you can run it now without fully charging the batteries, the same time into more batteries is no problem. The alternator only has less of a load once the battery gets up near full charge. Probably not much of an answer but it is going to depend on the alternator. I would be extremely surprised if there was a problem personally and would not hesitate if it was my boat or RV. I have 4 marine batteries in my RV and just run the stock alternator. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: > > > The only "weak link" I'm concerned about is the alternator. > > Does anyone know, with certainty, what could happen with a 60 amp > alternator confronted with two (or three or four) 4-D batteries, with an > initial voltage at 11.8 volts, when the alternator starts charging. > > Should this be a problem ? Could this be a problem ? > > Can this scenario "over extend" what the alternator should be able to do, > and potentially causing the alternator to over-heat and possibly fail. > > The real questions is: Is there "science" on this ?? > > Fin. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 2:59 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > > It won't hurt the batteries to charge them slowly and they will get to full > charge as long as you have more than the self drain current into the > battery. I also doubt you will hurt the alternator. You are unlikely to > run your engine for the many hours required to charge them up anyway. > > Have you considered an ice chest instead of a refrigerator? A block of ice > will last longer than what you need. then you won't need any more > batteries. > > Allen > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Radiant, I have the following: >> >> 1. Group 31 starting battery >> 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) >> 3. 60 Amp alternator >> 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger >> >> My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I >> like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED >> lights except for navigation lights. >> >> My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. >> >> Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging >> capacity prior to leaving. >> >> My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to >> charge batteries. >> >> Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can >> go without recharging. >> >> I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would >> not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) >> >> Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit >> to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, >> assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts >> before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a >> weekend. >> >> Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. >> >> Fin Beven >> Cal-40 #24 >> Radiant >> San Pedro, CA >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >

With all else the same, putting two batteries in parallel cuts the resistance in half. Without active management by the regulator, the current will be the difference in the open-circuit alternator voltage and 11.8 divided by the total resistance of the battery and the alternator. Cut the resistance in half (ignoring the alternator), double the current. Now I know it doesn't work this way, the alternator does have circuitry to manage that load so the question now becomes how does it work. I maintain you can't answer this question without looking at the alternator specs. At least I wouldn't want to. Al --- On Fri, 9/24/10, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> wrote: From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 11:21 PM There is certainly no issue with running it into any load at 11.8 volts, it doesn't care how many batteries are there. My only concern would be running it for a long time to charge up the battery. But if you can run it now without fully charging the batteries, the same time into more batteries is no problem. The alternator only has less of a load once the battery gets up near full charge. Probably not much of an answer but it is going to depend on the alternator. I would be extremely surprised if there was a problem personally and would not hesitate if it was my boat or RV. I have 4 marine batteries in my RV and just run the stock alternator. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: The only "weak link" I'm concerned about is the alternator. Does anyone know, with certainty, what could happen with a 60 amp alternator confronted with two (or three or four) 4-D batteries, with an initial voltage at 11.8 volts, when the alternator starts charging. Should this be a problem ? Could this be a problem ? Can this scenario "over extend" what the alternator should be able to do, and potentially causing the alternator to over-heat and possibly fail. The real questions is: Is there "science" on this ?? Fin. From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question It won't hurt the batteries to charge them slowly and they will get to full charge as long as you have more than the self drain current into the battery. I also doubt you will hurt the alternator. You are unlikely to run your engine for the many hours required to charge them up anyway. Have you considered an ice chest instead of a refrigerator? A block of ice will last longer than what you need. then you won't need any more batteries. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> wrote: On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA

You are correct that it doesn't work this way. The alternator is going to supply a current to the 11.8 volt battery, not a voltage. The resistance of the battery doesn't matter to the alternator. It will not supply a voltage until the battery is charged. Allen On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Al Waschka <aw… [at] bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > With all else the same, putting two batteries in parallel cuts the > resistance in half. Without active management by the regulator, the current > will be the difference in the open-circuit alternator voltage and 11.8 > divided by the total resistance of the battery and the alternator. Cut the > resistance in half (ignoring the alternator), double the current. Now I > know it doesn't work this way, the alternator does have circuitry to manage > that load so the question now becomes how does it work. I maintain you > can't answer this question without looking at the alternator specs. At > least I wouldn't want to. > > Al > > > --- On *Fri, 9/24/10, Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com>*wrote: > > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 11:21 PM > > > > There is certainly no issue with running it into any load at 11.8 volts, it > doesn't care how many batteries are there. My only concern would be running > it for a long time to charge up the battery. But if you can run it now > without fully charging the batteries, the same time into more batteries is > no problem. The alternator only has less of a load once the battery gets up > near full charge. Probably not much of an answer but it is going to depend > on the alternator. I would be extremely surprised if there was a problem > personally and would not hesitate if it was my boat or RV. I have 4 marine > batteries in my RV and just run the stock alternator. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com<http://us.mc1806.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fi… [at] msn.com> > > wrote: > > > The only "weak link" I'm concerned about is the alternator. > > Does anyone know, with certainty, what could happen with a 60 amp > alternator confronted with two (or three or four) 4-D batteries, with an > initial voltage at 11.8 volts, when the alternator starts charging. > > Should this be a problem ? Could this be a problem ? > > Can this scenario "over extend" what the alternator should be able to do, > and potentially causing the alternator to over-heat and possibly fail. > > The real questions is: Is there "science" on this ?? > > Fin. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Allen Edwards<http://us.mc1806.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1806.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 2:59 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > > It won't hurt the batteries to charge them slowly and they will get to full > charge as long as you have more than the self drain current into the > battery. I also doubt you will hurt the alternator. You are unlikely to > run your engine for the many hours required to charge them up anyway. > > Have you considered an ice chest instead of a refrigerator? A block of ice > will last longer than what you need. then you won't need any more > batteries. > > Allen > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com<http://us.mc1806.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fi… [at] msn.com> > > wrote: > > > On Radiant, I have the following: > > 1. Group 31 starting battery > 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) > 3. 60 Amp alternator > 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger > > My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I > like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED > lights except for navigation lights. > > My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. > > Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging > capacity prior to leaving. > > My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to > charge batteries. > > Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can > go without recharging. > > I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would > not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) > > Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to > the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, > assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts > before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a > weekend. > > Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > > > > > >

Fin, Here are a couple of tools I use. The Excel File calculates your loading, and gives data as to how to size your battery bank and charging regimen. The link below gives a rule of thumb on alternator sizing, and info on installing alternator and support systems.

Tim: I was going to prepare a long response to this but I see you covered most of it. In this scenario would not a suitable solar panel be appropriate and alleviate all the concerns with the alternator relegating it to secondary charge mechanism, that and a second battery for the refrigeration unit and excess power collector? These units are getting cheaper all the time and I mean it is California...:) Best /ch

I was lucky to find a used 80 amp alternator for the 2GM20 on Silverswan, it was a fleebay gamble, but was as advertied. The original was a 35 amp and it was quickly replaced with a 50 that is now the spare. The 80 amp will put out 80 amps for over a couple hrs as the batteries take a charge. I have 2 110amphr agm's for the house and a agm for the starting batt. When we have overnighters we spare no power, refrigerator, blender, lights and loud music.... need to run the engine 2-3hrs over 1500rpm to charge her back up.. Rule of thumb is no more than 100amps per single belt.. ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from ti… [at] ch2m.com included below] > > Fin, > > > > Here are a couple of tools I use. > > > > The Excel File calculates your loading, and gives data as to how to > size your battery bank and charging regimen. > > > > The link below gives a rule of thumb on alternator sizing, and info on > installing alternator and support systems. > > > > From my experience, > > > > · expect an alternator to output @ 2/3rds OF ITs RATED OUTPUT > for the first 10-20 minutes, then it will taper off after that. > > > > · Once the amount of discharge amp hours is within the rated > amp output of your alternator, the alternator will output ½ of the > remaining charge to allow for plate absorption. > > > > · Alternators hold their higher charging output longer if you > put a load on it beyond charging batteries, like running a water > maker, possibly a refrigerator. > > > > > > http://www.pkys.com/alternator_installation.htm > > From Peter Kennedy's web site"When considering an alternator size you > can apply a simple rule: the alternator output in amps multiplied by 4 > should match the size of the battery banks in amp hours. So a 70 amp > alternator would work well with a 280 amp hour battery bank. This is > a very general rule so don't worry if you bank rating exactly. If > your alternator is too big it won't hurt anything but it may not be > able to work at its full potential. If your alternator is too small > it will just take a bit longer to charge the bank fully. " > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Fin Beven > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:07 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > > > > > > On Radiant, I have the following: > > > > 1. Group 31 starting battery > > 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) > > 3. 60 Amp alternator > > 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger > > > > My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but > I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't > like LED lights except for navigation lights. > > > > My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. > > > > Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging > capacity prior to leaving. > > > > My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the > engine to charge batteries. > > > > Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you > can go without recharging. > > > > I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight > would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) > > > > Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known > limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge > SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop > to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go > home after a weekend. > > > > Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. > > > > Fin Beven > > Cal-40 #24 > > Radiant > > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > > > > > > >

I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) ----- Original Message ----- From: Fin Beven To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA

Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny any claim. I also think you are taking a_ very big risk t_o have any non marine genset operating aboard a boat. *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: > > > I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or > hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the > job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / > lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a > Honda 2000 generator that I use on long trips... cost around $850 and > was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 > hours to fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for house and 1 > group 31 for starter) > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Fin Beven <mailto:fi… [at] msn.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > > On Radiant, I have the following: > 1. Group 31 starting battery > 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) > 3. 60 Amp alternator > 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger > My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, > but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I > don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. > My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. > Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited > charging capacity prior to leaving. > My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the > engine to charge batteries. > Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer > you can go without recharging. > I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight > would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) > Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known > limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can > re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house > batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply > starting the engine to go home after a weekend. > Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 > > > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. Just about every serious cruiser I know carries one of these or the better version the older 1000 model. On a properly setup DC charging system exactly where does the fire and explosive risk enter the equation assuming the owner knows what he is doing. Enquiring minds want to know. /ch On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > > > Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the > boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny > any claim. > > I also think you are taking a* very big risk t*o have any non marine > genset operating aboard a boat. > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: > > I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I > have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at > fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough > batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I > use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. > Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I > have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question > > > > On Radiant, I have the following: > > 1. Group 31 starting battery > 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) > 3. 60 Amp alternator > 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger > > My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I > like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED > lights except for navigation lights. > > My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. > > Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging > capacity prior to leaving. > > My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to > charge batteries. > > Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can > go without recharging. > > I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would > not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) > > Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to > the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, > assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts > before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a > weekend. > > Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. > > Fin Beven > Cal-40 #24 > Radiant > San Pedro, CA > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 > > > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > -- /ch

I doubt the unit is coast guard approved? Cheers, Timm Lessley (Sent from Blackberry) (503) 863-4019 From: chris123 [mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 02:51 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gas genset [ was Serious battery question Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. Just about every serious cruiser I know carries one of these or the better version the older 1000 model. On a properly setup DC charging system exactly where does the fire and explosive risk enter the equation assuming the owner knows what he is doing. Enquiring minds want to know. /ch On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com<mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> wrote: Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny any claim. I also think you are taking a very big risk to have any non marine genset operating aboard a boat. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com<http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) From: Fin Beven<mailto:fi… [at] msn.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question On Radiant, I have the following: 1. Group 31 starting battery 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) 3. 60 Amp alternator 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation lights. My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to charge batteries. Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go without recharging. I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. Fin Beven Cal-40 #24 Radiant San Pedro, CA No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com<http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> phone & fax (860) 666-2184 -- /ch

Greets Tim; Yes I agree, but half the boats in Marathon sitting on a hook are using them. The preferred model is the ex1000 typically around 200 bucks on the local cruiser net where they change hands once someone leaves. Havnt heard of any complaints so far and no one seems to gets hassled by the USCG. The field is 200 or more boats. A better setup of course is to run solar but on sustained cloudy days, these are the preferred fallback units. So while not approved, when operated properly, was wondering where the risk is....as I may be missing something?? Best regards /ch

I guess it boils down to a number of things. Exhaust, gasoline, gasoline storage in unmounted tanks, not spark proofed, not mounted or gimbaled, permanently temporarily installed. I'm not agin it, just keep safe. These units are not allowed on offshore racing (at least the last time I wanted to use one) Cheers, Timm Lessley (Sent from Blackberry) (503) 863-4019 From: chris123 [mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 03:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gas genset [ was Serious battery question Greets Tim; Yes I agree, but half the boats in Marathon sitting on a hook are using them. The preferred model is the ex1000 typically around 200 bucks on the local cruiser net where they change hands once someone leaves. Havnt heard of any complaints so far and no one seems to gets hassled by the USCG. The field is 200 or more boats. A better setup of course is to run solar but on sustained cloudy days, these are the preferred fallback units. So while not approved, when operated properly, was wondering where the risk is....as I may be missing something?? Best regards /ch

On 9/27/2010 4:51 PM, chris123 wrote: > > > Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. ******* Very simple Chris. The unit is not designed to be used on a boat, so why would you do so? EVERY marine genset MUST BE ignition protected if it uses gasoline, AND it must be certified for such use by the USCG. This means it has been engineered to NOT be the source of sparks, heat, gasoline fumes, etc. Because, if there are gas fumes in the boat, or near the unit while starting or running it, there will be a fire or explosion. This standard was imposed to save people's lives. Ignoring it is just plain foolhardy, _and criminal_, in my book. > Just about every serious cruiser I know carries one of these or the > better version the older 1000 model. ***** "Serious cruiser"? ANY skipper that knowingly would jeopardize the lives of his crew by using a non marine gas genset on his boat is someone I have contempt for. Is saving some money really the responsible alternative to the purchase and installation of a REAL marine genset? Do you really _think so little of the lives of your crew_ ? ***** It would be illuminating to hear the justification for this non marine genset installation during a court proceeding. Involuntary manslaughter is no joke. Just what, exactly, would you tell the judge? [ assuming you survived the explosion ] ***** You will certainly be sued by your crew's family members for wrongful death. Will the jury view the irresponsible skipper, or a grieving widow more favorably? Why would one NOT protect oneself against such possibly life changing events? > On a properly setup DC charging system exactly where does the fire and > explosive risk enter the equation ******* Marine gas gensets are designed to contain any possible sparks, heat, backfires, and gasoline fumes that could start a fire or explosion. Your Honda genset has none of these vital engineering features. Remember, you only need to blow up ONCE, and may not live to have a second chance. > assuming the owner knows what he is doing. ******* If he knew "what he is doing" he would not use a non marine genset on a boat, EVER !!!. ***** If I crewed on a boat and discovered a non marine gasoline genset aboard, I would either leave the boat immediately, or throw the unit overboard, and I'm not kidding. It really can be a matter of life or death. Joe DeMers > > Enquiring minds want to know. > > /ch > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com > <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> wrote: > > Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. > Should the boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your > insurance company will deny any claim. > > I also think you are taking a_ very big risk t_o have any non > marine genset operating aboard a boat. > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > > On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: >> I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or >> hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do >> the job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and >> sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 days, however >> have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use on long trips... >> cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet >> and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I >> have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Fin Beven <mailto:fi… [at] msn.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question >> >> On Radiant, I have the following: >> 1. Group 31 starting battery >> 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) >> 3. 60 Amp alternator >> 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger >> My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and >> stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on when I >> want to, and I don't like LED lights except for navigation >> lights. >> My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days >> sometimes. >> Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited >> charging capacity prior to leaving. >> My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start >> the engine to charge batteries. >> Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the >> longer you can go without recharging. >> I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the >> weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, >> 320 Ah) >> Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a >> known limit to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it >> can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let the voltage of >> both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before re-charging, >> or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. >> Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. >> Fin Beven >> Cal-40 #24 >> Radiant >> San Pedro, CA >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 >> >> >> > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > > > -- > /ch > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 > > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

Thanks for your comments Joe. They are appreciated. From an engineering perspective I understand what you are saying. From a risk assessment perspective, I'm not completely convinced yet. However. Perhaps you have convinced me that solar is the preferred backup method. There are lots of people especially Europeans who consider these as part of the standard outfitting kit for cruising the Caribbean or Med for a period of longer then a year. I understand your concerns, perhaps not your passionate plea, but its worth considering. I do tend to sail alone so there is no one to get hurt except myself. I simply cannot afford a marine gen set so solar is the alternative backup method. Wind is simply too noisy and not cost effective. Best regards and thanks /ch

I would have no problem using one of these on my boat but I would only use it on deck in the open air. The problem I would have is I would never store it below deck where any gas could escape. That pretty much leaves out having one. Allen On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. Just about every > serious cruiser I know carries one of these or the better version the older > 1000 model. On a properly setup DC charging system exactly where does the > fire and explosive risk enter the equation assuming the owner knows what he > is doing. > > Enquiring minds want to know. > > /ch > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: > >> >> >> Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the >> boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny >> any claim. >> >> I also think you are taking a* very big risk t*o have any non marine >> genset operating aboard a boat. >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >> >> >> On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: >> >> I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I >> have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at >> fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough >> batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I >> use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. >> Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I >> have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question >> >> >> >> On Radiant, I have the following: >> >> 1. Group 31 starting battery >> 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) >> 3. 60 Amp alternator >> 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger >> >> My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I >> like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED >> lights except for navigation lights. >> >> My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. >> >> Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging >> capacity prior to leaving. >> >> My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to >> charge batteries. >> >> Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can >> go without recharging. >> >> I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would >> not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) >> >> Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit >> to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, >> assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts >> before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a >> weekend. >> >> Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. >> >> Fin Beven >> Cal-40 #24 >> Radiant >> San Pedro, CA >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >> > > > > -- > /ch > > >

Store without gas in the tank. OK, I will buy that. On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > I would have no problem using one of these on my boat but I would only use > it on deck in the open air. The problem I would have is I would never store > it below deck where any gas could escape. That pretty much leaves out > having one. > > Allen > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. Just about every >> serious cruiser I know carries one of these or the better version the older >> 1000 model. On a properly setup DC charging system exactly where does the >> fire and explosive risk enter the equation assuming the owner knows what he >> is doing. >> >> Enquiring minds want to know. >> >> /ch >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the >>> boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny >>> any claim. >>> >>> I also think you are taking a* very big risk t*o have any non marine >>> genset operating aboard a boat. >>> >>> *Joe DeMers - owner* >>> >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >>> >>> >>> On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: >>> >>> I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I >>> have the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at >>> fully recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough >>> batteries to last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I >>> use on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. >>> Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I >>> have 3 group 31 for house and 1 group 31 for starter) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Fin Beven <fi… [at] msn.com> >>> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM >>> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question >>> >>> >>> >>> On Radiant, I have the following: >>> >>> 1. Group 31 starting battery >>> 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) >>> 3. 60 Amp alternator >>> 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger >>> >>> My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I >>> like to feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED >>> lights except for navigation lights. >>> >>> My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. >>> >>> Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging >>> capacity prior to leaving. >>> >>> My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine >>> to charge batteries. >>> >>> Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can >>> go without recharging. >>> >>> I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would >>> not be particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) >>> >>> Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit >>> to the number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, >>> assuming I would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts >>> before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a >>> weekend. >>> >>> Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. >>> >>> Fin Beven >>> Cal-40 #24 >>> Radiant >>> San Pedro, CA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Joe DeMers - owner* >>> >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> /ch >> >> >> > >

I just talked to my bud's in Rio Dulce via Skye. Down there, approx 200 boats moored everyone either runs a Honda on deck to recharge the batteries or if big enough the remaining boats run gen sets below decks. But you need the space. As air conditioning is a requirement, the units stay on deck in air tight boxes to prevent corrosion and are wired via the AC outlet on the generator, their AC shore power cord, to the AC inlet, to power the battery charger, to top up the batteries. /ch

I tried this once with my Cal-25 to run the air conditioning. It wasn't a nice, quiet Honda but a generator you find at a construction site. I fired it up on deck and had to IMMEDIATELY turn it off. Did you know that the deck of a Cal-25 has the same acoustic abilities as the sound board on a guitar? The noise was horrendous! As far as the safety issues go, we are on a boat which is inherently a safety issue in and of itself. We have outboard motors powered by gas and/or inboards by diesel. We have propane stoves and water heaters. We also carry copious quantities of chemicals for cleaning, painting etc. Most of which are extremely flammable. In the grand scheme of things, having a small gas generator running outside isn't a big deal as long as you are responsible about it. (Clean connectors, fuel lines intact etc.) The sad fact is that some will make this compromise since real marine rated diesel generators are exorbitantly priced. I still plan on buying and installing one of Joe's wonderful generators (3.5kw of sweetness) <http://soundmarinediesel.com/generators.html> but I won't be able to afford that for awhile. In the meantime, if I am lucky enough to get /Celtic Naut/ back in the water soon and have an extended cruise, I would consider a little Honda to top off the batteries and take the precautions necessary to keep it as safe as possible. Cheers, Mike M. Cal-40 #44 /Celtic Naut /On 9/27/2010 8:24 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > I would have no problem using one of these on my boat but I would only > use it on deck in the open air. The problem I would have is I would > never store it below deck where any gas could escape. That pretty > much leaves out having one. > > > Allen > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com > <mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: > > Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. Just about > every serious cruiser I know carries one of these or the better > version the older 1000 model. On a properly setup DC charging > system exactly where does the fire and explosive risk enter the > equation assuming the owner knows what he is doing. > > Enquiring minds want to know. > > /ch > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers > <je… [at] mindspring.com <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> wrote: > > Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. > Should the boat catch fire, or there be an explosion, your > insurance company will deny any claim. > > I also think you are taking a_ very big risk t_o have any non > marine genset operating aboard a boat. > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > > On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: >> I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring >> or hook. I have the original 35 amp. alternator which does >> not do the job so well at fully recharging. I keep the frig. >> on and sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to last 3 >> days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use >> on long trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the >> peice of mind. Very quiet and light. Takes about 3 hours to >> fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for house and 1 >> group 31 for starter) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Fin Beven <mailto:fi… [at] msn.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question >> >> On Radiant, I have the following: >> 1. Group 31 starting battery >> 2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) >> 3. 60 Amp alternator >> 4. 20 Amp shore-power charger >> My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration >> and stereo, but I like to feel free to leave lights on >> when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except for >> navigation lights. >> My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days >> sometimes. >> Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually >> unlimited charging capacity prior to leaving. >> My goal is to go as long as possible without having to >> start the engine to charge batteries. >> Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, >> the longer you can go without recharging. >> I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so >> the weight would not be particularly detrimental. (2 >> batteries, 320 Ah) >> Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is >> there a known limit to the number of batteries (or total >> amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I would let >> the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts >> before re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go >> home after a weekend. >> Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. >> Fin Beven >> Cal-40 #24 >> Radiant >> San Pedro, CA >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 02:34:00 >> >> >> > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > > > > -- > /ch > > >

In the Pacific Cup we carried a Yamaha gas gen set to run a 110v battery charger. We kept it in a closed plastic bag and covered with a sail bag in the aft end of the cockpit. It caused no problems for us although had we filled the cockpit, it would have been water damaged most likely. Now solar panels are used instead. I would have no problem with a small portable gas set on board, used on deck only, of course. My Best, Mike F. From: mike <mi… [at] wahini.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 7:53:26 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gas genset [ was Serious battery question I tried this once with my Cal-25 to run the air conditioning. It wasn't a nice, quiet Honda but a generator you find at a construction site. I fired it up on deck and had to IMMEDIATELY turn it off. Did you know that the deck of a Cal-25 has the same acoustic abilities as the sound board on a guitar? The noise was horrendous! As far as the safety issues go, we are on a boat which is inherently a safety issue in and of itself. We have outboard motors powered by gas and/or inboards by diesel. We have propane stoves and water heaters. We also carry copious quantities of chemicals for cleaning, painting etc. Most of which are extremely flammable. In the grand scheme of things, having a small gas generator running outside isn't a big deal as long as you are responsible about it. (Clean connectors, fuel lines intact etc.) The sad fact is that some will make this compromise since real marine rated diesel generators are exorbitantly priced. I still plan on buying and installing one of Joe's wonderful generators (3.5kw of sweetness) but I won't be able to afford that for awhile. In the meantime, if I am lucky enough to get Celtic Naut back in the water soon and have an extended cruise, I would consider a little Honda to top off the batteries and take the precautions necessary to keep it as safe as possible. Cheers, Mike M. Cal-40 #44 Celtic Naut On 9/27/2010 8:24 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >I would have no problem using one of these on my boat but I would only use it on >deck in the open air. The problem I would have is I would never store it below >deck where any gas could escape. That pretty much leaves out having one. > > >Allen > > > >On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > >>Not to pull your chain Joe, but whats the issue here. Just about every serious >>cruiser I know carries one of these or the better version the older 1000 model. >>On a properly setup DC charging system exactly where does the fire and explosive >>risk enter the equation assuming the owner knows what he is doing. >> >> >>Enquiring minds want to know. >> >>/ch >> >> >> >>On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Note that a Honda gas generator is NOT rated for marine use. Should the boat >>>catch fire, or there be an explosion, your insurance company will deny any >>>claim. >>> >>> >>>I also think you are taking avery big risk to have any non marine genset >>>operating aboard a boat. >>> >>> >>> >>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> >>>On 9/27/2010 11:11 AM, svadas wrote: >>>I too am at a slip, however every weekend leave for a mooring or hook. I have >>>the original 35 amp. alternator which does not do the job so well at fully >>>recharging. I keep the frig. on and sterio / lights. I have enough batteries to >>>last 3 days, however have bought a Honda 2000 generator that I use on long >>>trips... cost around $850 and was well worth the peice of mind. Very quiet and >>>light. Takes about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries (I have 3 group 31 for >>>house and 1 group 31 for starter) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: Fin Beven >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:07 PM >>>>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Serious battery question >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Radiant, I have the following: >>>>> >>>>>1. Group 31 starting battery >>>>>2. 4-D house battery (160 Ah) >>>>>3. 60 Amp alternator >>>>>4. 20 Amp shore-power charger >>>>> >>>>>My primary power consumption goes to the refrigeration and stereo, but I like to >>>>>feel free to leave lights on when I want to, and I don't like LED lights except >>>>>for navigation lights. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>My typical summer trip is 2 - 3 days at Catalina. 4 days sometimes. >>>>> >>>>>Because I keep my boat in a slip, I have virtually unlimited charging capacity >>>>>prior to leaving. >>>>> >>>>>My goal is to go as long as possible without having to start the engine to >>>>>charge batteries. >>>>> >>>>>Obviously, the more battery storage capacity you have, the longer you can go >>>>>without recharging. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I could easily add another 4-D battery, in my bilge, so the weight would not be >>>>>particularly detrimental. (2 batteries, 320 Ah) >>>>> >>>>>Here's my question: given the 60 amp alternator, is there a known limit to the >>>>>number of batteries (or total amperage) it can re-charge SAFELY, assuming I >>>>>would let the voltage of both house batteries drop to 11.8 volts before >>>>>re-charging, or simply starting the engine to go home after a weekend. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Any wisdom on this would be appreciated. >>>>> >>>>>Fin Beven >>>>>Cal-40 #24 >>>>>Radiant >>>>>San Pedro, CA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3162 - Release Date: 09/27/10 >>>>>02:34:00 >>>>> >> >>-- >> >>Joe DeMers - owner >>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >> >> >>-- >>/ch >> >

Allen, I bought the beefier one back when I owned a T-34C (classic Tartan 34). The displacement was given as 12,000 pounds. The stronger tillerpilot was just right for that boat. Back when I owned a Cal25 I purchased the smaller unit, and it was just right. I think the beefier unit is the one you should have for your boat. Bernie S2 9.2A Gremlin Winthrop, Mass. --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, <timmothy.lessley@...> wrote: > > Everything depends on everything. > > "Fit for purpose" is a common phrase in my world. > > Properly set up an auto pilot should not see much force at all, the killer is the duty- Is the pilot robust enough to work many hours without burning up or eating gears or motors? > > If my boat is correctly trimmed, it will sail for many many hours or days without touching the tiller - I've done it. > > Before recommending an autopilot, more would need to be understood as to what you want it to do. > > In 2000 on our 3,000 mile trip from Hawaii we used an autohelm 2000+ tiller pilot, while undersized it performed perfectly, we did not stress it out with a hard to steer course. The hours the pilot was not used we tied off the helm. This setup worked until there was large wind shifts. We were sailing between 31 and 55 degrees apparent in wind from 17 to 30 knots. > > In 2004 we went to the autohelm 4000st Tiller Pilot- this unit is very -very robust and a more "permanent" solution. The 4000 was so wacky "Crazy Ivan" on our trip - that we turned it off, tied off the helm, and steered the Slocum way. It turned out that the 4000 is very sensitive to compass placement, a dark science. After a number of compass moves the unit performs okay. We now use it for motoring jobs with our chart plotter. One big job for it is following the 93 waypoints from Astoria up the Columbia River to our Portland home. The 4000 drives from waypoint to waypoint perfectly, while I just sit there and agree with it. > > In 2007, 2008 we used a Monitor wind vane. BY far this is the most elegant sailing solution - fast, no electrical energy use, and fun to watch. > > My point is that a lighter duty unit could work depending on what you expect the pilot to do or not at all if you expect it to "everything" > > dEmO > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:29 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot > > > > Conservative would be don't use an auto pilot in this case as the TP32 is the strongest one that Simrad makes. You are apparently of like mind to the guy at Simrad. > > Allen > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:36 PM, r good <my1972ih@...<mailto:my1972ih@...>> wrote: > > > be conservative. you never know when you'll need the extra advantage. > Reggie > > > ________________________________ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > From: allen.edwards@... > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:28:01 -0700 > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Simrad Tiller Auto Pilot > > > > I am thinking again about getting a tiller auto pilot to replace my (very) old one. I am a little frustrated as I talked to Simrad and they said their TP32 was not strong enough for my boat. My L-36 is obviously 36 feet long and has a rated displacement of 12,000 pounds. They like to add 2,000 pounds for gear although mine is pretty spartan with no stove, no bunks, no door on the head, etc. I am thinking they are being overly conservative but thought I would ask if anyone on this list has experience good or bad with the Simrad tiller auto pilots. I sail in San Francisco Bay and it is day sailing only. The problem with the old one is that if it ever gets off about 15 degrees, it gets lost and goes the wrong way. It is also a pain in the butt to set up and use but it does work most of the time. > > Allen >

Do these units require you to swing the compass to get the computer all lined up and happy.? Perhaps thats the source of the crazy ivan's... On my RayM X-5 it took me 5 hrs to swing the compass off Cape May to get it withing the 3 degree accuracy required which I think is still too much deviation from the ships compass. I mounted the fluxgate compass on velco patch on the front side of the compression post just under the forward hatch. I think there is still some interference so will re-do the exercise when I get back to the boat as there is some metal there but its an aluminum shower rail which can be removed. Found no other suitable location on my 29 /ch > In 2004 we went to the autohelm 4000st Tiller Pilot– this unit is very > –very robust and a more “permanent” solution. The 4000 was so wacky “Crazy > Ivan” on our trip – that we turned it off, tied off the helm, and steered > the Slocum way. It turned out that the 4000 is very sensitive to compass > placement, a dark science. After a number of compass moves the unit performs > okay. We now use it for motoring jobs with our chart plotter. One big job > for it is following the 93 waypoints from Astoria up the Columbia River to > our Portland home. The 4000 drives from waypoint to waypoint perfectly, > while I just sit there and agree with it. > > >