Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade

Greets: One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html -- /ch 78-Cal-3-29

we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced this result. From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade Greets: One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html -- /ch 78-Cal-3-29

Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is that it recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as stantions and through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as well. Thats new to me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, there is lots to learn. They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats pretty standard if you follow ABYC electrical standards. http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be reflective of the alloy that is used. http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf Best regards /ch

Helen, but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, Mussels with melted swiss cheese! Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced this result. From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade Greets: One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html -- /ch 78-Cal-3-29

Jerry, Jerry. You are encouraging natural selection for a new type of animal. In 10 years, there will be microbes that thrive on Marlon. Then they will learn to eat fiberglas, then human flesh. Jerry, we're doomed! Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 10:03 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) Helen, but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, Mussels with melted swiss cheese! Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced this result. From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade Greets: One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html -- /ch 78-Cal-3-29

That prop looks like it didn't have a zinc on the shaft. Bonding through hulls and stations sounds like a terrible idea to me. But then with a wood boat things are different. The basic idea is that any two dissimilar metals in an electrolyte (salt water) form a battery. There are two lifetimes to be concerned with in a battery. There is the amp-hours and there is the shelf life. In other words, how long can the battery put out current and how long will it last just sitting there. The shelf life of a bronze element of a battery is about 100 years. If you bond it, you are shorting out the battery and asking it to source current. In that case, the life will be much less. So what you do is make a battery out of bronze and zinc. The zinc ions will move through the electrolyte and plate onto the bronze. The zinc will then go away and can be replaced. This protects the bronze. In a wood boat there is a complication. When the zinc ions are busy plating onto the bronze and protecting it, hydroxyl ions are created in the process and those ions eat all the good stuff out of the wood leaving only the cell membranes. You then have to fill that with epoxy. I have seen that several times on Papoose so we now just use a single zinc on the prop shaft and replace it when needed. Much better for the wood. My recommendation is to not bond through hull fittings but to replace them every 50 years. That is what I do. As they have a 100 year shelf life, you are replacing perfectly good fittings but you really wouldn't want to wait until they were bad to replace them. If you want to see this and your boat is not bonded, take a voltmeter can connect it between two fittings. You will probably see a voltage and if you then connect a wire between those two fittings, you will get electrons going through the wire and metal ions moving through the water from one fitting to the other. Not my idea of a good thing. But to each his own. Allen On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. > > I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is that > it recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as stantions > and through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as well. Thats > new to me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, there is lots > to learn. They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats pretty standard > if you follow ABYC electrical standards. > > http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm > > Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be > reflective of the alloy that is used. > > http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf > > Best regards > > /ch > > > >

marlon would be interesting, and a whole lot cheaper in the long run. as for the bonding, my stantions are not connected to it, but throughhulls are. so it stands to reason ( i guess) that if the two blade we took off after 5 years looked a lot better than the indigo after two, i would avoid the indigo, is there another company or manufacturer? this would be a metallurgical issue, we bought it in Richmond Ca from a prop shop who ordered it for us.. maybe after others weigh in on indigo, or other brands, we can get an idea. we also use a collar type zinc around the shaft and always replace them early for cheap insurance. From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 7:03:09 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) Helen, but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, Mussels with melted swiss cheese! Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: >From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM > > > >we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss >cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had >this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot >of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the >metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced >this result. > > > > > > From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> >To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade > > >Greets: > >One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some >point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? > >http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html > >-- >/ch >78-Cal-3-29 >

this is info I was looking for for a friend in haulout with a wooden boat, I told him he couldn't use the same bonding system that we use on fiberglass but that he should find the wood boat expert for the proper system. on the FG sailboat, we have bronze through-hulls that have been on since well before I got it as well as that two-blade that we took off to put on the indigo. We keep our zincs fresh and they work on everything but that one indigo. The zinc must go on the SS shaft on clean metal to bond, and no paint of course, so the zinc disintegrates first as designed. One more issue, our shaft was replaced (because of scoring) in 07 when we repropped and in 09 it was still unscathed. There must be more info about the indigo brand. maybe it came from China.HH From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 8:30:14 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade That prop looks like it didn't have a zinc on the shaft. Bonding through hulls and stations sounds like a terrible idea to me. But then with a wood boat things are different. The basic idea is that any two dissimilar metals in an electrolyte (salt water) form a battery. There are two lifetimes to be concerned with in a battery. There is the amp-hours and there is the shelf life. In other words, how long can the battery put out current and how long will it last just sitting there. The shelf life of a bronze element of a battery is about 100 years. If you bond it, you are shorting out the battery and asking it to source current. In that case, the life will be much less. So what you do is make a battery out of bronze and zinc. The zinc ions will move through the electrolyte and plate onto the bronze. The zinc will then go away and can be replaced. This protects the bronze. In a wood boat there is a complication. When the zinc ions are busy plating onto the bronze and protecting it, hydroxyl ions are created in the process and those ions eat all the good stuff out of the wood leaving only the cell membranes. You then have to fill that with epoxy. I have seen that several times on Papoose so we now just use a single zinc on the prop shaft and replace it when needed. Much better for the wood. My recommendation is to not bond through hull fittings but to replace them every 50 years. That is what I do. As they have a 100 year shelf life, you are replacing perfectly good fittings but you really wouldn't want to wait until they were bad to replace them. If you want to see this and your boat is not bonded, take a voltmeter can connect it between two fittings. You will probably see a voltage and if you then connect a wire between those two fittings, you will get electrons going through the wire and metal ions moving through the water from one fitting to the other. Not my idea of a good thing. But to each his own. Allen On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. > >I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is that it >recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as stantions and >through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as well. Thats new to >me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, there is lots to learn. >They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats pretty standard if you follow >ABYC electrical standards. > > >http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm > >Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be >reflective of the alloy that is used. > > >http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf > >Best regards > >/ch > > >

If it is as you say, my guess is that the prop was brass. Bronze is coper and tin, brass is coper and zinc. You can figure out which is better from that. Allen On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > this is info I was looking for for a friend in haulout with a wooden boat, > I told him he couldn't use the same bonding system that we use on fiberglass > but that he should find the wood boat expert for the proper system. on the > FG sailboat, we have bronze through-hulls that have been on since well > before I got it as well as that two-blade that we took off to put on the > indigo. We keep our zincs fresh and they work on everything but that one > indigo. The zinc must go on the SS shaft on clean metal to bond, and no > paint of course, so the zinc disintegrates first as designed. One more > issue, our shaft was replaced (because of scoring) in 07 when we repropped > and in 09 it was still unscathed. There must be more info about the indigo > brand. maybe it came from China.HH > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Fri, November 5, 2010 8:30:14 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade > > > > That prop looks like it didn't have a zinc on the shaft. > > Bonding through hulls and stations sounds like a terrible idea to me. But > then with a wood boat things are different. > > The basic idea is that any two dissimilar metals in an electrolyte (salt > water) form a battery. There are two lifetimes to be concerned with in a > battery. There is the amp-hours and there is the shelf life. In other > words, how long can the battery put out current and how long will it last > just sitting there. > > The shelf life of a bronze element of a battery is about 100 years. If you > bond it, you are shorting out the battery and asking it to source current. > In that case, the life will be much less. So what you do is make a battery > out of bronze and zinc. The zinc ions will move through the electrolyte and > plate onto the bronze. The zinc will then go away and can be replaced. > This protects the bronze. > > In a wood boat there is a complication. When the zinc ions are busy > plating onto the bronze and protecting it, hydroxyl ions are created in the > process and those ions eat all the good stuff out of the wood leaving only > the cell membranes. You then have to fill that with epoxy. I have seen > that several times on Papoose so we now just use a single zinc on the prop > shaft and replace it when needed. Much better for the wood. > > My recommendation is to not bond through hull fittings but to replace them > every 50 years. That is what I do. As they have a 100 year shelf life, you > are replacing perfectly good fittings but you really wouldn't want to wait > until they were bad to replace them. > > If you want to see this and your boat is not bonded, take a voltmeter can > connect it between two fittings. You will probably see a voltage and if you > then connect a wire between those two fittings, you will get electrons going > through the wire and metal ions moving through the water from one fitting to > the other. Not my idea of a good thing. > > But to each his own. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> > > > >> Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. >> >> I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is >> that it recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as >> stantions and through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as >> well. Thats new to me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, >> there is lots to learn. They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats >> pretty standard if you follow ABYC electrical standards. >> >> http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm >> >> Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be >> reflective of the alloy that is used. >> >> http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf >> >> Best regards >> >> /ch >> >> >> > >

Charlie, You can ask Capt. dEMo about microbes that eat flesh. He nearly lost a crew that way sailing California Gurl back to the States after a TransPac. If we can lure them microbes away from our skin, and onto the Marlon, we'll be a lot safer. BTW Were those mussels or just little clams that I ate at the Venice Marina Yacht Club Halloween party last weekend, or, were they mussels dressed up in little tan with concentric ridged clam shells, as this was a costume party? I thought mussel shells were black and smooth. Anyway, they tasted pretty good none the less. Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: From: Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 7:13 PM Jerry, Jerry. You are encouraging natural selection for a new type of animal. In 10 years, there will be microbes that thrive on Marlon. Then they will learn to eat fiberglas, then human flesh. Jerry, we're doomed! Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 10:03 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) Helen, but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, Mussels with melted swiss cheese! Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced this result. From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade Greets: One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html -- /ch 78-Cal-3-29

When I bought Shpritz, I was strongly advised by several people to shit can the marlon through hulls. I didn't listen to any of them, I put them back in, using the recommended butyl caulk. I also didn't put bronze shut-off valves on them either, just the hoses and clamps, as the way I bought the boat. I would have used the fancy marine hose clamps I bought, except I was trying to put them on minutes before my scheduled re-launch, but they had an odd sized nut on the screws for which I had no driver, so I had to re-use the original ones. After seeing bronze disintegrate on plain water plumbing fittings, I felt I could trust EPDM fiberglas reinforced water heater hose a lot more. None of them are attached to an engine cooling system, that would be a different story. I wonder, for how long is the butyl caulk good? It will be 14 years since my last haul out by next Spring. My diver says it is cheaper for him to clean the bottom twice a month during the warm months, than for me to haul out and paint. And, how long is the shelf life on that gallon of hi-test copper epoxy bottom paint I bought on sale 9 years ago? Capt. Solar Solar --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 8:50 PM marlon would be interesting, and a whole lot cheaper in the long run. as for the bonding, my stantions are not connected to it, but throughhulls are. so it stands to reason ( i guess) that if the two blade we took off after 5 years looked a lot better than the indigo after two, i would avoid the indigo, is there another company or manufacturer? this would be a metallurgical issue, we bought it in Richmond Ca from a prop shop who ordered it for us.. maybe after others weigh in on indigo, or other brands, we can get an idea. we also use a collar type zinc around the shaft and always replace them early for cheap insurance. From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 7:03:09 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) Helen, but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, Mussels with melted swiss cheese! Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced this result. From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade Greets: One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html -- /ch 78-Cal-3-29

I replaced two 55 year old bronze through hulls last year. They cut them apart to get them out. The bronze looked new. That completed the replacement of my through hulls, with the exception of one mystery through hull that is plugged and not visible from the outside of the hull. I will get that out and have the hole plugged next haulout. I think it is a salt water inlet for washing dishes long abandoned. Anyway, the point is, bronze lasts a long time. Brass doesn't. Sometimes people sell brass and call it bronze. If you saw a plumbing fixture disappear, I bet it was either brass or screwed into some iron pipe. Allen On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > When I bought Shpritz, I was strongly advised by several people to shit can > the marlon through hulls. I didn't listen to any of them, I put them back > in, using the recommended butyl caulk. I also didn't put bronze shut-off > valves on them either, just the hoses and clamps, as the way I bought the > boat. I would have used the fancy marine hose clamps I bought, except I was > trying to put them on minutes before my scheduled re-launch, but they had an > odd sized nut on the screws for which I had no driver, so I had to re-use > the original ones. After seeing bronze disintegrate on plain water plumbing > fittings, I felt I could trust EPDM fiberglas reinforced water heater hose a > lot more. None of them are attached to an engine cooling system, that would > be a different story. > > I wonder, for how long is the butyl caulk good? It will be 14 years since > my last haul out by next Spring. > My diver says it is cheaper for him to clean the bottom twice a month > during the warm months, than for me to haul out and paint. And, how long is > the shelf life on that gallon of hi-test copper epoxy bottom paint I bought > on sale 9 years ago? > Capt. Solar Solar > > --- On *Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net>* wrote: > > > From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 8:50 PM > > > > marlon would be interesting, and a whole lot cheaper in the long run. as > for the bonding, my stantions are not connected to it, but throughhulls are. > so it stands to reason ( i guess) that if the two blade we took off after 5 > years looked a lot better than the indigo after two, i would avoid the > indigo, is there another company or manufacturer? this would be a > metallurgical issue, we bought it in Richmond Ca from a prop shop who > ordered it for us.. maybe after others weigh in on indigo, or other brands, > we can get an idea. we also use a collar type zinc around the shaft and > always replace them early for cheap insurance. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Fri, November 5, 2010 7:03:09 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) > > > > Helen, > but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, > Mussels with melted swiss cheese! > Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? > Jerry > > --- On *Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net>* wrote: > > > From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM > > > > we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss > cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, > had this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade > has a lot of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the > quality of the metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone > else has experienced this result. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade > > > > Greets: > > One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some > point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? > > http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html > > -- > /ch > 78-Cal-3-29 > > >

Beware these fiberglass eaters! Tom Vandiver From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 9:13:30 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) Jerry, Jerry. You are encouraging natural selection for a new type of animal. In 10 years, there will be microbes that thrive on Marlon. Then they will learn to eat fiberglas, then human flesh. Jerry, we're doomed! Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 10:03 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Helen) Helen, but, did the Indigo prop resist fouling like they advertise? Mmm-mmm-mmm, Mussels with melted swiss cheese! Why don't they make the prop out of sturdy Marlon? Jerry --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: >From: Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 6:22 PM > > > >we put one on in 07 brand new, and with zincs and all, it looked like swiss >cheese on the ends in 09, no other prop including the two blade we took off, had >this problem, we now have a feathering prop. you will find the 3blade has a lot >of torque to get reversed but also lots of drag. I question the quality of the >metal in the indigo. Helen ...I don't know if anyone else has experienced >this result. > > > > > > From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> >To: CAL <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 3:02:00 PM >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade > > >Greets: > >One of the items on my todo list is to change out the prop at some >point. Anyone have any experience with the Indigo 3 bladed prop? > >http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html > >-- >/ch >78-Cal-3-29 >

Great Observations Allen! I think you really got to the crux if the issue. I will add one more point. Stray voltage from other boats in your marina may be responsible for some of this damage. I dropped voltmeter probes in to Clipper # 1 some years back and I found .5v to as much as 1.65 v. At the time a boat near me had an electroguard system that the owner cranked up at times, I suspect the voltage range was caused by this. When his wood Grand Banks was out of the harbor I saw the voltage in the lower range. Many 3 blade props were responsible for snapped crankshafts on 5 ton boats that were at their limit of the A4's endurance. Be Careful! My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 8:30:14 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade That prop looks like it didn't have a zinc on the shaft. Bonding through hulls and stations sounds like a terrible idea to me. But then with a wood boat things are different. The basic idea is that any two dissimilar metals in an electrolyte (salt water) form a battery. There are two lifetimes to be concerned with in a battery. There is the amp-hours and there is the shelf life. In other words, how long can the battery put out current and how long will it last just sitting there. The shelf life of a bronze element of a battery is about 100 years. If you bond it, you are shorting out the battery and asking it to source current. In that case, the life will be much less. So what you do is make a battery out of bronze and zinc. The zinc ions will move through the electrolyte and plate onto the bronze. The zinc will then go away and can be replaced. This protects the bronze. In a wood boat there is a complication. When the zinc ions are busy plating onto the bronze and protecting it, hydroxyl ions are created in the process and those ions eat all the good stuff out of the wood leaving only the cell membranes. You then have to fill that with epoxy. I have seen that several times on Papoose so we now just use a single zinc on the prop shaft and replace it when needed. Much better for the wood. My recommendation is to not bond through hull fittings but to replace them every 50 years. That is what I do. As they have a 100 year shelf life, you are replacing perfectly good fittings but you really wouldn't want to wait until they were bad to replace them. If you want to see this and your boat is not bonded, take a voltmeter can connect it between two fittings. You will probably see a voltage and if you then connect a wire between those two fittings, you will get electrons going through the wire and metal ions moving through the water from one fitting to the other. Not my idea of a good thing. But to each his own. Allen On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. > >I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is that it >recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as stantions and >through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as well. Thats new to >me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, there is lots to learn. >They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats pretty standard if you follow >ABYC electrical standards. > > >http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm > >Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be >reflective of the alloy that is used. > > >http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf > >Best regards > >/ch > > >

This brings up an interesting point. If the boat next to you is doing something in the water electrically wise, this should only be a concern to you if your boat is referenced to his in some way. Birds can sit on 10,000 volt transmission lines and nothing happens. Your boat should be able to sit in water that has any voltage in the same way. The reference that would get you in trouble would, of course, be shore ground. I will have to check Papoose and make sure that my battery charger (that is my 110 Volt system) is not connecting my battery to shore ground. It should not be. An isolation transformer, referenced earlier in this thread, will isolate you for sure. I don't know the code and safety issues involved but I personally wold not want my boat tied to shore ground, at least not the parts that are in the water like through hulls. That said, I guess it is possible for someone to stick a 110 volt line in the water and for there to be a ground near that will terminate it. If that was 100 feet away, you could detect a volt per foot just in the water. Our marina has a light that turns red when the shore power isn't correct, in other words when some of the hot current is coming back on the ground instead of the neutral. It is red most of the time. At least it gives a way to see if a boat is "hot" by switching boats off one at a time and seeing if the light will reset to green. Allen On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 7:27 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Great Observations Allen! I think you really got to the crux if the > issue. I will add one more point. Stray voltage from other boats in your > marina may be responsible for some of this damage. I dropped voltmeter > probes in to Clipper # 1 some years back and I found .5v to as much as 1.65 > v. At the time a boat near me had an electroguard system that the owner > cranked up at times, I suspect the voltage range was caused by this. When > his wood Grand Banks was out of the harbor I saw the voltage in the lower > range. > Many 3 blade props were responsible for snapped crankshafts on 5 ton > boats that were at their limit of the A4's endurance. Be Careful! > My Best, Mike > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Fri, November 5, 2010 8:30:14 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade > > > > That prop looks like it didn't have a zinc on the shaft. > > Bonding through hulls and stations sounds like a terrible idea to me. But > then with a wood boat things are different. > > The basic idea is that any two dissimilar metals in an electrolyte (salt > water) form a battery. There are two lifetimes to be concerned with in a > battery. There is the amp-hours and there is the shelf life. In other > words, how long can the battery put out current and how long will it last > just sitting there. > > The shelf life of a bronze element of a battery is about 100 years. If you > bond it, you are shorting out the battery and asking it to source current. > In that case, the life will be much less. So what you do is make a battery > out of bronze and zinc. The zinc ions will move through the electrolyte and > plate onto the bronze. The zinc will then go away and can be replaced. > This protects the bronze. > > In a wood boat there is a complication. When the zinc ions are busy > plating onto the bronze and protecting it, hydroxyl ions are created in the > process and those ions eat all the good stuff out of the wood leaving only > the cell membranes. You then have to fill that with epoxy. I have seen > that several times on Papoose so we now just use a single zinc on the prop > shaft and replace it when needed. Much better for the wood. > > My recommendation is to not bond through hull fittings but to replace them > every 50 years. That is what I do. As they have a 100 year shelf life, you > are replacing perfectly good fittings but you really wouldn't want to wait > until they were bad to replace them. > > If you want to see this and your boat is not bonded, take a voltmeter can > connect it between two fittings. You will probably see a voltage and if you > then connect a wire between those two fittings, you will get electrons going > through the wire and metal ions moving through the water from one fitting to > the other. Not my idea of a good thing. > > But to each his own. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> > > > >> Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. >> >> I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is >> that it recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as >> stantions and through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as >> well. Thats new to me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, >> there is lots to learn. They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats >> pretty standard if you follow ABYC electrical standards. >> >> http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm >> >> Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be >> reflective of the alloy that is used. >> >> http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf >> >> Best regards >> >> /ch >> >> >> > > > >

The point I found unusual about the indigo install instructions are that they recommend that the zinc be attached to the bonding system if installed. See reference sited if interested. This was my initial question as I have not heard of that before. Secondly which all manufacturer's recommend is that a functional galvanic isolation circuit be installed. But the later is rather standard if you follow ABYC guidelines for plastic boats. Best regards /ch

Chris, I talked with Tom Stephans about that and since I'm in fresh water he said not to worry about installing an isolater. Dave Dobbs --- On Fri, 11/5/10, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 8:51 PM Interesting observations. Sorry to hear about that. I was reading the install instructions and what I found interesting is that it recommends that if your vessel uses a bonding system such as stantions and through hulls the zinc needs to be bonded to this system as well. Thats new to me, as Ive never heard that one before. But then again, there is lots to learn. They also recommend galvanic isolation but thats pretty standard if you follow ABYC electrical standards. http://www.atomic4.com/galvanic.htm Perhaps that is what contributed to the premature corrosion and could be reflective of the alloy that is used. http://www.atomic4.com/prop_install.pdf Best regards /ch

See this is what I don't get..Thanks for the comment David. There seems to be two schools of thought on this, and it appears to be water type (brine or fresh) independent. Some are very strongly for a galvanic isolator and some argue equally against the need. I know cruisers on both sides of the fence. I just don't know enough electrical theory to come to a conclusion on this matter. All I know and its rather disappointing, that all models other then the most expensive have no reverse polarity or over voltage protection. So if you get a short in your AC electrical system, it will fry your GI..So whats the point of installing one that is not protected against that. That's my only bitch...errr complaint about these things as they ain't cheap. Lucky for me, Westmarine took all of them back..:) Now interestingly enough Indigo recommends that the zinc be "attached" to the bonding system if installed (exactly how you would do this is unknown) and that a GI be installed. Go figure...:,) /ch

Just remember when you buy that Marelon prop it is plastic. I had one on my 29 when I first bought it, but on the way to the boatyard that fall I hit something and all of a sudden the boat started vibrating. Couldn't see anything because it was pouring rain and my glasses don't have wipers. Determined it wasn't a show stopper and proceeded. Upon haulout discovered my prop now consisted of a blade and a half. Went in the trash and the bronze 2 blade went back on. It's still on. Regards, David Dobbs Cal29 411 --- On Sat, 11/6/10, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Chris H) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 8:22 PM See this is what I don't get..Thanks for the comment David. There seems to be two schools of thought on this, and it appears to be water type (brine or fresh) independent. Some are very strongly for a galvanic isolator and some argue equally against the need. I know cruisers on both sides of the fence. I just don't know enough electrical theory to come to a conclusion on this matter. All I know and its rather disappointing, that all models other then the most expensive have no reverse polarity or over voltage protection. So if you get a short in your AC electrical system, it will fry your GI..So whats the point of installing one that is not protected against that. That's my only bitch...errr complaint about these things as they ain't cheap. Lucky for me, Westmarine took all of them back..:) Now interestingly enough Indigo recommends that the zinc be "attached" to the bonding system if installed (exactly how you would do this is unknown) and that a GI be installed. Go figure...:,) /ch

As some of you know, my boat is rather basic and doesn't have an AC system. I have an extension cord that I plug my battery charger into. Thus the topic of galvanic isolators has not made it to my radar. I am, however, an Electrical Engineer by training so understand this stuff reasonably well. I Googled a bit to see what you all were talking about. I see that there are regulations or standards that require the AC ground and boat ground to be connected and require the "masses" on the boat to be bonded. Sounds like a nice way to ruin your boat to me. Clearly an isolation transformer solves the problem as with one you do not connect the shore and boat grounds. The galvanic isolators sound like a cheap alternative and with it some limitations. Go with the transformer if you can. That said, I like my solution: no AC system on the boat and no bonding. If I ever had the desire to have an AC system on my boat, it just ended with this thread. The question came up how to connect the shaft zinc to the boat bonding system. I would think that would happen through the engine. Allen On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 6:22 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > See this is what I don't get..Thanks for the comment David. > > There seems to be two schools of thought on this, and it appears to be > water type (brine or fresh) independent. Some are very strongly for a > galvanic isolator and some argue equally against the need. I know cruisers > on both sides of the fence. I just don't know enough electrical theory to > come to a conclusion on this matter. All I know and its rather > disappointing, that all models other then the most expensive have no reverse > polarity or over voltage protection. So if you get a short in your AC > electrical system, it will fry your GI..So whats the point of installing one > that is not protected against that. That's my only bitch...errr complaint > about these things as they ain't cheap. Lucky for me, Westmarine took all of > them back..:) > > Now interestingly enough Indigo recommends that the zinc be "attached" to > the bonding system if installed (exactly how you would do this is unknown) > and that a GI be installed. Go figure...:,) > > /ch > > >

I agree, I never understood why electrical systems for vessels weren't better designed. I also run an extension chord to my battery charger as well and I also use a small 1100 watt generator for ac power when I need it in open water. Eventually I am going the solar route, coupled with a generator (my Yanmar once it is serviced) and I think that is the best way to electrically engineer a charging system. For the cost involved in a shore power system, I believe it is worth the added expense to recharge off the big warm bright thing in the sky! LOL. Besides, other than the pleasure I get from sailing around with the help of Mother Nature, why rely on tethering to a 30 or 50 amp service when you pull into a marina? Part of the joy and fun of living on board or even just a short cruise is the benefit of being independent of "infrastructure." I guess it all has to do with the spin of the argument. My line of thinking is that I like solutions to pay for the cost of the problem. Brian Cal 30 Puget Sound, WA From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> Sender: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:12:17 To: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic 4, 3 blade prop upgrade(Chris H) As some of you know, my boat is rather basic and doesn't have an AC system. I have an extension cord that I plug my battery charger into. Thus the topic of galvanic isolators has not made it to my radar. I am, however, an Electrical Engineer by training so understand this stuff reasonably well. I Googled a bit to see what you all were talking about. I see that there are regulations or standards that require the AC ground and boat ground to be connected and require the "masses" on the boat to be bonded. Sounds like a nice way to ruin your boat to me. Clearly an isolation transformer solves the problem as with one you do not connect the shore and boat grounds. The galvanic isolators sound like a cheap alternative and with it some limitations. Go with the transformer if you can. That said, I like my solution: no AC system on the boat and no bonding. If I ever had the desire to have an AC system on my boat, it just ended with this thread. The question came up how to connect the shaft zinc to the boat bonding system. I would think that would happen through the engine. Allen On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 6:22 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > See this is what I don't get..Thanks for the comment David. > > There seems to be two schools of thought on this, and it appears to be > water type (brine or fresh) independent. Some are very strongly for a > galvanic isolator and some argue equally against the need. I know cruisers > on both sides of the fence. I just don't know enough electrical theory to > come to a conclusion on this matter. All I know and its rather > disappointing, that all models other then the most expensive have no reverse > polarity or over voltage protection. So if you get a short in your AC > electrical system, it will fry your GI..So whats the point of installing one > that is not protected against that. That's my only bitch...errr complaint > about these things as they ain't cheap. Lucky for me, Westmarine took all of > them back..:) > > Now interestingly enough Indigo recommends that the zinc be "attached" to > the bonding system if installed (exactly how you would do this is unknown) > and that a GI be installed. Go figure...:,) > > /ch > > >

On 11/6/2010 3:07 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > Anyway, the point is, bronze lasts a long time. Brass doesn't. > Sometimes people sell brass and call it bronze. If you saw a > plumbing fixture disappear, I bet it was either brass or screwed into > some iron pipe. Wait... I thought that when bronze and iron were in contact, the iron was the loser and the bronze prevailed. Quick, chemistry majors, tell us what's true. Chris Campbell

You are correct. Interesting. http://l-36.com/corrosion.php Perhaps when I had that leak it was the iron pipe that ended up with a hole in it. Too long ago... <http://l-36.com/corrosion.php>Allen On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Chris <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 11/6/2010 3:07 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > > > Anyway, the point is, bronze lasts a long time. Brass doesn't. > Sometimes people sell brass and call it bronze. If you saw a plumbing > fixture disappear, I bet it was either brass or screwed into some iron pipe. > > > Wait... I thought that when bronze and iron were in contact, the iron was > the loser and the bronze prevailed. Quick, chemistry majors, tell us what's > true. > > Chris Campbell > > >