Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO

Hi I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop shaft strut. Thanks in advance for any assistance!! Tony Stein Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II

On 11/29/2010 6:07 PM, ko6dr wrote: > > Hi > > I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. > From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question > is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it > be fixed? > > I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the > links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). > > ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi > > ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip > Wow, looks pretty floppy to me. I have no advice except to reflect that one good thing about launching and retrieving my Cal 20 on her trailer means that there's no chance to see (or worry about) a loose keel. Ignorance is bliss, at least until things go completely adrift.... Chris Campbell

Way too much flex. You will have to fix it. Daniel Richmond From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ko6dr Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 3:07 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO Hi I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop shaft strut. Thanks in advance for any assistance!! Tony Stein Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3287 - Release Date: 11/28/10 23:34:00

Second part of the question - how do I fix it?? Tony

I'm not sure that's WAY above and beyond what would be normal, but it does look suspect. I would consult somebody who has experience with this issue. I can say that it's no-where near the flexing that my keel was making -- not even close. Mine was wobbling a good 5" back and forth. A good shove would start the wobble and it would continue on it's own. I did do a complete re-build of my bilge and keel area and though I have the skills to do this work, it was still expensive. I could have made an argument for chucking the boat rather than repairing, but am in way too deep for that kind of logical thinking. One project leads to another, unfortunately, and it's like debt leverage..... The best way to get yet another loan from your bank is to owe them so much they fear you going under. Similar to the AIG thing. Now that's I've spent yet another $4 K on the damned boat, it's time for sails and a new engine. She just keeps on sucking me back into the yard. So if you decide to go with a repair, I can tell you what I did. I consulted with a top marine surveyor and others on this group hooked me up with authorities that had ideas that were very helpful. Wilkie On Nov 30, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Daniel Richmond wrote: > > Way too much flex. > > You will have to fix it. > > Daniel Richmond > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of ko6dr > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 3:07 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO > > > > > > Hi > > I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. > From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question > is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it > be fixed? > > I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the > links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). > > ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi > > ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip > > When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a > loose prop shaft strut. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance!! > > Tony Stein > Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3287 - Release Date: > 11/28/10 23:34:00 > > >

Anthony, I've seen that much (and more) flex in a flat deck 25, but the keel (and therefore the load) is spread much wider on the flat deck (i.e., keel is fatter in the flat deck). You have a sharper curve in keel-hull joint, so the flex is more concentrated in one area. This could be a blessing in terms of repair. How accessible is the bilge area in your boat through the cabin floor? There are several things you can do, three of which are below (assuming you have ready access to the bilge). 1. Grind (e.g., flapper disks on a converted 4.5 inch grinder) into the area from the inside enough to give yourself a clean rough surface about 4-6 inch above and below the curvature (keel hull joint). Lay in strips of thick biax glas cloth fore-aft along the joint (and just above and below) with epoxy. You will want to run it as much of the length of the keel as you can since you do not want to create strong and weak spots that some other part of the hull might not like. A couple layers should go in depending on how thick the cloth was. 2. Make wine glass shaped pieces of plywood to insert at the curve (they would extend upward from the curve several inches and down maybe 8-10 inches. Glas those in laterally (say 3-4 of them). I'm not so hot on this since it does create strong and weak spots, although methods 1 and 2 could be combined. 3. Say the hell with it and go sailing. I have never heard of the keel falling off a CAL 25 of either design. As I said, I've seen flat deck 25s that flex more than your boat does, and they are sailing all the time. Best of Luck Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony C. Stein, Ph.D. Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 2:21 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO Second part of the question - how do I fix it?? Tony

Anthony I did some glass work on my boat this past spring and had my 2-25 in a sling. Virtually no flex. However, as Charlie said, you could just go sail it. Take the pragmatic look, decide if you love'er enough to make a dramatic investment. There's little need to fix it immediately; consider it a medium time frame project. Mine is a terrific boat. I plan to sail her for a long time. Sail yours some more if you're not sure. By the way, I'm in western Wisconsin on Lake Pepin. Regards Jeff On Nov 29, 2010, at 5:07 PM, "ko6dr" <ko… [at] arrl.net> wrote: > Hi > > I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? > > I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). > > ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi > > ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip > > When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop shaft strut. > > Thanks in advance for any assistance!! > > Tony Stein > Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II > > > >

If there are no cracks and nothings delaminated what does this matter? This is an encapsulated keel, correct? To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ko… [at] arrl.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:07:15 +0000 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO Hi I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop shaft strut. Thanks in advance for any assistance!! Tony Stein Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II

Sometimes we get surface gelcoat cracks as well. doesn't seem structural. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george macon Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 4:59 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO If there are no cracks and nothings delaminated what does this matter? This is an encapsulated keel, correct? To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ko… [at] arrl.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:07:15 +0000 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO Hi I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop shaft strut. Thanks in advance for any assistance!! Tony Stein Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II

Ever sat on a 747 flying over the Sierras or through a thunderstorm and watched the wings flex and bounce? Pretty amazing flexibility for something that is supporting 350 tons in a fluid medium (air) and being pushed forward by 4 engines each generating 57,000 lb/ft of thrust! I have personally watched the wing tips on a 747 rise and fall over 5 feet in rapid and random actions without so much as a worry. I would only be concerned if the glass at the hull to keel joint showed delamination, cracking, or other signs of failure. If the surface is smooth and you tap with a hammer and it sounds solid rather than hollow -- sail away!! Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: george macon <ge… [at] hotmail.com> To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 1:58:52 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO If there are no cracks and nothings delaminated what does this matter? This is an encapsulated keel, correct? To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ko… [at] arrl.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:07:15 +0000 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO Hi I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below (it's too big to upload to the group site). ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop shaft strut. Thanks in advance for any assistance!! Tony Stein Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II

Scary Shi- From: DavidOwen <wi… [at] mariposasailing.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 11:35:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO I'm not sure that's WAY above and beyond what would be normal, but it does look suspect. I would consult somebody who has experience with this issue. I can say that it's no-where near the flexing that my keel was making -- not even close. Mine was wobbling a good 5" back and forth. A good shove would start the wobble and it would continue on it's own. I did do a complete re-build of my bilge and keel area and though I have the skills to do this work, it was still expensive. I could have made an argument for chucking the boat rather than repairing, but am in way too deep for that kind of logical thinking. One project leads to another, unfortunately, and it's like debt leverage..... The best way to get yet another loan from your bank is to owe them so much they fear you going under. Similar to the AIG thing. Now that's I've spent yet another $4 K on the damned boat, it's time for sails and a new engine. She just keeps on sucking me back into the yard. So if you decide to go with a repair, I can tell you what I did. I consulted with a top marine surveyor and others on this group hooked me up with authorities that had ideas that were very helpful. Wilkie On Nov 30, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Daniel Richmond wrote: > >Way too much flex. >You will have to fix it. >Daniel Richmond > >From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf >Of ko6dr >Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 3:07 PM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO > > > >Hi > >I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From >previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel >flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? > >I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below >(it's too big to upload to the group site). > >ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi > >ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip > >When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop >shaft strut. > >Thanks in advance for any assistance!! > >Tony Stein >Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3287 - Release Date: 11/28/10 >23:34:00 > >

Does your boat leak? From: Jeff Raethke <js… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 12:07:00 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO Anthony I did some glass work on my boat this past spring and had my 2-25 in a sling. Virtually no flex. However, as Charlie said, you could just go sail it. Take the pragmatic look, decide if you love'er enough to make a dramatic investment. There's little need to fix it immediately; consider it a medium time frame project. Mine is a terrific boat. I plan to sail her for a long time. Sail yours some more if you're not sure. By the way, I'm in western Wisconsin on Lake Pepin. Regards Jeff On Nov 29, 2010, at 5:07 PM, "ko6dr" <ko… [at] arrl.net> wrote: >Hi > >I went to the yard to look at the keel flex issue with my Cal 25-2. From >previous posts I am aware that 25's have keel flex. My question is: Is the keel >flex on my boat beyond normal? and if so, how can it be fixed? > >I shot a video of the flex which you can download from either of the links below >(it's too big to upload to the group site). > >ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.avi > >ftp://www.safetyresearch.com/RendezvousKeelFlex.zip > >When you view the video ignore the sound track. What you hear is a loose prop >shaft strut. > >Thanks in advance for any assistance!! > >Tony Stein >Rendezvous, 1978 Cal 25 Mk II > > >

Tony: I had a similar problem with my pacific v 22. It had a bolt on fin keel ( I did not catch if yours is but I would guess from the photos that it is encapsulated) I only had to remove the keel and build up the thickness of the floor then remount it. Yours fix depends on a couple of things. Has the ballast come loose in the hull (you can tell by tapping the fin and ballast cap with a small plastic faced hammer if it sounds hollow its loose). If it has it needs fixed first. That’s not hard to do and is not expensive. It entails drilling several holes in the bottom of the keel housing to let out any water in case it has been penetrated from the outside or from cracking in the ballast cover on the inside. The holes in the bottom of the keel do not need to be big @3/8 is ok. If no water drains out then your good to go. Fill the holes with thickened epoxy and skip the drying out section. If it does then you need to dry it out. Drill several holes near the edges down each side of the ballast cover from the bilge side ( ½”to ¾” holes) not so close that you penetrate the hull. Sand off the bottom paint . Put radiant heaters next to the keel to raise the temperature (do not over heat the hull). If you cannot hold your hand on it for 30 seconds or so it is too hot. You will need to leave it like this for at about two weeks. Once dried out fill the holes in the bottom of the keel with thickened epoxy and sand smooth. To re bond the ballast to the hull you need to pore thin epoxy into the holes drilled in the ballast cover. Epoxies that are used to saturated wood like Get Rot are best. They are thinner and better able to fill the crevasses between the ballast and the hull. If the epoxy you choose comes with a slow hardener us it. You want plenty of flow time. Keep adding epoxy until all the holes are full, keep topped them off (it may take several gallons , mix in pint batches as you need them). When the holes take no more epoxy and it sets it is time for the next step. I do not know how deep the bilge is in your boat. You need to build up the thickness of the ballast cap with additional laminations of woven roving using epoxy resin. (be sure to sand the area you are to cover and clean with acetone). Carry the laminations up the sides of the hull to stiffen the turn of the bilge (from the video it looks like this is where the majority of the flexing is taking place). Use at least 4 layers of roving with a layer of mat in between each. The first layer should be a couple of inches wider than the ballast cap and each layer should be two inches wider than the previous layer on each side (the top layer being the widest). Also carry the laminations an equal distance fore and aft of the ballast pocket if possible. Properly done you will never have to visit it again. It sounds like a big job but it rely is not. Take it one step at a time and plan each out. It just takes a bit of work. Dan R From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony C. Stein, Ph.D. Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:21 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO. Second part of the question - how do I fix it?? Tony No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3288 - Release Date: 11/29/10 23:34:00

This is a great post. There is certainly a lot of advice coming from this group from this to ignore the problem. When my keel was lose, I just replaced the 12 bronze rods at a cost of about $6,000. They just cut the lead away from the deadwood with a sawzall, picked the boat up and moved it one space over, worked on everything, then moved the boat back. Some fun. Anyway, my contribution to the excellent description below it to suggest you phone West System and talk to them. You can check what is said below which will give you some confidence. They are also great fans of not using thin epoxy like get-rot but if you have to, they will tell you how much to thin their excellent product and what to use to end up with something at least as good. I have phoned their tech support several times and they have always been very helpful. I buy the stuff by the gallon and use a lot of it. My crew says that eventually I will have a plastic boat like the rest of you. Allen On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Daniel Richmond <dv… [at] frontier.com>wrote: > > > Tony: > > I had a similar problem with my pacific v 22. It had a bolt on fin keel ( I > did not catch if yours is but I would guess from the photos that it is > encapsulated) > > I only had to remove the keel and build up the thickness of the floor then > remount it. > > Yours fix depends on a couple of things. Has the ballast come loose in > the hull (you can tell by tapping the fin and ballast cap with a small > plastic faced hammer if it sounds hollow its loose). If it has it needs > fixed first. That’s not hard to do and is not expensive. It entails drilling > several holes in the bottom of the keel housing to let out any water in case > it has been penetrated from the outside or from cracking in the ballast > cover on the inside. The holes in the bottom of the keel do not need to be > big @3/8 is ok. If no water drains out then your good to go. Fill the holes > with thickened epoxy and skip the drying out section. > > If it does then you need to dry it out. Drill several holes near the edges > down each side of the ballast cover from the bilge side ( ½”to ¾” holes) not > so close that you penetrate the hull. Sand off the bottom paint . Put > radiant heaters next to the keel to raise the temperature (do not over heat > the hull). If you cannot hold your hand on it for 30 seconds or so it is > too hot. You will need to leave it like this for at about two weeks. Once > dried out fill the holes in the bottom of the keel with thickened epoxy and > sand smooth. To re bond the ballast to the hull you need to pore thin epoxy > into the holes drilled in the ballast cover. Epoxies that are used to > saturated wood like Get Rot are best. They are thinner and better able to > fill the crevasses between the ballast and the hull. If the epoxy you > choose comes with a slow hardener us it. You want plenty of flow time. Keep > adding epoxy until all the holes are full, keep topped them off (it may > take several gallons , mix in pint batches as you need them). When the holes > take no more epoxy and it sets it is time for the next step. I do not know > how deep the bilge is in your boat. You need to build up the thickness of > the ballast cap with additional laminations of woven roving using epoxy > resin. (be sure to sand the area you are to cover and clean with acetone). > Carry the laminations up the sides of the hull to stiffen the turn of the > bilge (from the video it looks like this is where the majority of the > flexing is taking place). Use at least 4 layers of roving with a layer of > mat in between each. The first layer should be a couple of inches wider > than the ballast cap and each layer should be two inches wider than the > previous layer on each side (the top layer being the widest). Also carry the > laminations an equal distance fore and aft of the ballast pocket if > possible. Properly done you will never have to visit it again. It sounds > like a big job but it rely is not. Take it one step at a time and plan each > out. > > It just takes a bit of work. > > Dan R > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Anthony C. Stein, Ph.D. > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:21 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel flex UPDATE WITH VIDEO. > > > > > > Second part of the question - how do I fix it?? > > Tony > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3288 - Release Date: 11/29/10 > 23:34:00 > > >