Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing?

This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. Thanks! John Edmond, OK

Hi John - It certainly IS an offshore passage from Miami to the Bahamas! Don't delude yourself into thinking it is an easy trip. You will be well offshore, much farther than you can swim, with no place to hide if the weather deteriorates. Throw in the Gulf Stream crossing, and the potential for disaster increases. Your crew and vessel must be prepared for any eventuality, including dismasting, taking on LOTS of water, man overboard, fires, heavy weather, medical emergencies, etc. Remember, the ocean is to be respected, and a responsible skipper will ensure that the boat and crew are well prepared. _Complacency can kill you. _ Joe D On 1/13/2011 8:44 AM, stratinsights wrote: > This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > > In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > > I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? > > I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > > Thanks! > > John > Edmond, OK > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3376 - Release Date: 01/12/11 14:34:00 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

Granted. I wasn't meaning to downplay that trip and I understand the risks. The point I was making is that I'm not looking for an offshore boat that's a good circumnavigator. There's a number of good boats for that purpose, but that would be poor choices for shallow water island hopping. In my scenario, I'm looking for the latter, but a boat that would not be a complete mismatch for a small number of limited offshore sprints. Your point is well made and appreciated. So, again for the group, how well would a 33-2 match that type of mission? Thanks! John Edmond, OK --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Joe DeMers <jedsail@...> wrote: > > Hi John - > It certainly IS an offshore passage from Miami to the Bahamas! Don't > delude yourself into thinking it is an easy trip. You will be well > offshore, much farther than you can swim, with no place to hide if the > weather deteriorates. Throw in the Gulf Stream crossing, and the > potential for disaster increases. Your crew and vessel must be prepared > for any eventuality, including dismasting, taking on LOTS of water, man > overboard, fires, heavy weather, medical emergencies, etc. > > Remember, the ocean is to be respected, and a responsible skipper will > ensure that the boat and crew are well prepared. _Complacency can kill > you. _ > > Joe D > > > > > On 1/13/2011 8:44 AM, stratinsights wrote: > > This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > > > > In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > > > How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > > > > I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? > > > > I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > > > > Thanks! > > > > John > > Edmond, OK > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3376 - Release Date: 01/12/11 14:34:00 > > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >

John, a list member recently announced he is selling a CAL 33 out of Annapolis. Can dig up the info if you are interested. I've known a number of folks who have done this kind of passage and touring on smaller and less sturdy boats. It is indeed a matter of the preparation and having the right stuff with you. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stratinsights Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:45 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. Thanks! John Edmond, OK ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks, Charlie. I saw his posting and regretted that I'm still a couple of years away from a purchase. Hopefully he'll have a quick sale to someone who will love her. I just wish the timing was better for me. I'm saving money for it like mad, which is a challenge with two kids in college. But, once that schooling paid for, my piggy bank will be better allocated toward the boat purchase. This does, however, give me a couple of years to do research and find the boat that matches my needs the best. John --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > John, a list member recently announced he is selling a CAL 33 out of Annapolis. Can dig up the info if you are interested. I've known a number of folks who have done this kind of passage and touring on smaller and less sturdy boats. It is indeed a matter of the preparation and having the right stuff with you. > > Cheers > Charlie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stratinsights > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:45 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? > > This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > > In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > > I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? > > I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > > Thanks! > > John > Edmond, OK > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

On Jan 13, 2011, at 10:25 AM, "johntturpin" <jo… [at] teamturpin.org> wrote: > Thanks, Charlie. I saw his posting and regretted that I'm still a couple of years away from a purchase. Hopefully he'll have a quick sale to someone who will love her. I just wish the timing was better for me. I'm saving money for it like mad, which is a challenge with two kids in college. But, once that schooling paid for, my piggy bank will be better allocated toward the boat purchase. > > This does, however, give me a couple of years to do research and find the boat that matches my needs the best. > > John > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > > > John, a list member recently announced he is selling a CAL 33 out of Annapolis. Can dig up the info if you are interested. I've known a number of folks who have done this kind of passage and touring on smaller and less sturdy boats. It is indeed a matter of the preparation and having the right stuff with you. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stratinsights > > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:45 AM > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? > > > > This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > > > > In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > > > How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > > > > I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? > > > > I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > > > > Thanks! > > > > John > > Edmond, OK > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

The previous owner of my 33-2 made several crossings to the Abacos as did my next slip neighbor in a sister ship. I planned to do so but so far haven't done it yet. It is a significant undertaking, as those who witnessed a squall coming through at 2am off Walkers can attest, but the 33-2 has seemed up to all thrown at it. The stream can get really bad in a wind with any north in it so regardless of the boat, one must choose one's windows carefully. Al On Jan 13, 2011, at 10:25 AM, "johntturpin" <jo… [at] teamturpin.org> wrote: > Thanks, Charlie. I saw his posting and regretted that I'm still a couple of years away from a purchase. Hopefully he'll have a quick sale to someone who will love her. I just wish the timing was better for me. I'm saving money for it like mad, which is a challenge with two kids in college. But, once that schooling paid for, my piggy bank will be better allocated toward the boat purchase. > > This does, however, give me a couple of years to do research and find the boat that matches my needs the best. > > John > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <husar_charlie@...> wrote: > > > > John, a list member recently announced he is selling a CAL 33 out of Annapolis. Can dig up the info if you are interested. I've known a number of folks who have done this kind of passage and touring on smaller and less sturdy boats. It is indeed a matter of the preparation and having the right stuff with you. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of stratinsights > > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:45 AM > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? > > > > This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > > > > In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > > > How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > > > > I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? > > > > I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > > > > Thanks! > > > > John > > Edmond, OK > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

I can answer that question from experience having crossed the Gulf of Mexico straight from Tampa Bay to Galveston Bay and experiencing a "lifetime" (90 knots sustained winds, 36 foot seas) storm in the process. I own the shoal draft, Scheel keel 1986 Cal 33-2. She was stiff as a rock through the storm conditions and tracked well through the seas with both iron genny (Yanmar 22hp 3GM) at 1.5 knots, and with the equivalent of a storm jib running at a broad reach. Storage on-board was adequate for the 6 1/2 days crossing and the quarter berth under the cockpit was a perfect berth for underway sleeping when we didn't bed down on deck. I have out pointed deep keel Catalina 34, Hunter 34, and Pearson 36 and walked away from Island Packet 38 without trying. The rig is exceptionally well-balanced with enough weather helm to keep you safe, but you can use the wheel brake and sail to weather for countless miles without touching the helm. The v-berth is roomy and the rounded galley with standard grab bar and lock-ins for a harness make the galley very safe to use while at sea. I especially liked the sideways chart table when sailing as it was easy to brace against the engine cover and work at a chart while underway. Engine access is fantastic with the completely removable engine cover -- mechanics smile on the rare occasion I call one to work on the boat. We built a bracket to store a microwave under the cockpit just aft of the steps that is just perfect for a 1.5 cubic foot microwave that is easily reached from the galley when at the dock. All told, I would highly recommend the boat for cruising as we have lived aboard for over two years and sailed the Hudson on vacations while doing so with excellent performance even fully loaded as a live-aboard. She is plenty stiff enough to handle the waves of the Gulf Stream if you encounter weather. Have never had even a slight shift in a bulk head or a cabinet. And the standard double spreader, tapered mast just begs for a backstay adjuster to de-power the main under tough conditions. Spoken as a proud owner, but with many years of light racing and heavy cruising experience! Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" PS And, oh, by the way, we have a list resident who currently needs to sell his 33-2 -- just the right time for you to ask! "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: stratinsights <jo… [at] teamturpin.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 5:44:53 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 owners here and I've got a quick question for you. How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a chicken when chosing routes/destinations. I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this island hopping scenario? I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. Thanks! John Edmond, OK

Concur with Joe completely. Look at the hurricane force storm we ran into crossing the Gulf of Mexico. It can happen to you on any open body of water! Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 5:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? Hi John - It certainly IS an offshore passage from Miami to the Bahamas! Don't delude yourself into thinking it is an easy trip. You will be well offshore, much farther than you can swim, with no place to hide if the weather deteriorates. Throw in the Gulf Stream crossing, and the potential for disaster increases. Your crew and vessel must be prepared for any eventuality, including dismasting, taking on LOTS of water, man overboard, fires, heavy weather, medical emergencies, etc. Remember, the ocean is to be respected, and a responsible skipper will ensure that the boat and crew are well prepared. Complacency can kill you. Joe D On 1/13/2011 8:44 AM, stratinsights wrote: This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > >In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of >the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 >owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > >How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for >poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of >course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a >chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > >I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini >or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a >well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this >island hopping scenario? > >I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out >there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > >Thanks! > >John >Edmond, OK > > > >------------------------------------ > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3376 - Release Date: 01/12/11 >14:34:00 > > -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184

Thanks, Donald. That's a great testimonial and exactly the sort of report that I was hoping for. I hadn't seen the "Scheel keel" term associated with 33's before your post. I had seen the deep fin and the shoal keel. But, I'd not noticed any type of bulb on the shoal keel. Was your bulbed keel available from the manufacturer (Jenson?)? Or, do all of the shallow keel have these and I just didn't notice it? And, as for the comments about wild Stream rides. I have some friends that just experienced such a crossing. Earlier this year, they meticulously waited for perfect weather for a crossing to Bimini. When they were given a perfect forecast, with no chance of adverse wind, they set out. Half way across, the wind did a 180 and came right out of the north. Within minutes, they were on a roller coaster. They were sailing a circa-'60s Meridian with heavy deep keel and they made it without incident. But they were certainly hanging on for their dear lives. Thanks again, Donald. Your boat sounds great. John --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@...> wrote: > > I can answer that question from experience having crossed the Gulf of Mexico > straight from Tampa Bay to Galveston Bay and experiencing a "lifetime" (90 knots > sustained winds, 36 foot seas) storm in the process. I own the shoal draft, > Scheel keel 1986 Cal 33-2. She was stiff as a rock through the storm conditions > and tracked well through the seas with both iron genny (Yanmar 22hp 3GM) at 1.5 > knots, and with the equivalent of a storm jib running at a broad reach. Storage > on-board was adequate for the 6 1/2 days crossing and the quarter berth under > the cockpit was a perfect berth for underway sleeping when we didn't bed down on > deck. > > I have out pointed deep keel Catalina 34, Hunter 34, and Pearson 36 and walked > away from Island Packet 38 without trying. The rig is exceptionally > well-balanced with enough weather helm to keep you safe, but you can use the > wheel brake and sail to weather for countless miles without touching the helm. > The v-berth is roomy and the rounded galley with standard grab bar and lock-ins > for a harness make the galley very safe to use while at sea. I especially liked > the sideways chart table when sailing as it was easy to brace against the engine > cover and work at a chart while underway. Engine access is fantastic with the > completely removable engine cover -- mechanics smile on the rare occasion I call > one to work on the boat. > > > We built a bracket to store a microwave under the cockpit just aft of the steps > that is just perfect for a 1.5 cubic foot microwave that is easily reached from > the galley when at the dock. > > All told, I would highly recommend the boat for cruising as we have lived aboard > for over two years and sailed the Hudson on vacations while doing so with > excellent performance even fully loaded as a live-aboard. She is plenty stiff > enough to handle the waves of the Gulf Stream if you encounter weather. Have > never had even a slight shift in a bulk head or a cabinet. And the standard > double spreader, tapered mast just begs for a backstay adjuster to de-power the > main under tough conditions. > > Spoken as a proud owner, but with many years of light racing and heavy cruising > experience! > > Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" > > PS And, oh, by the way, we have a list resident who currently needs to sell his > 33-2 -- just the right time for you to ask! > > > "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't > do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the > safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." > ........Mark Twain > > > > > ________________________________ > From: stratinsights <john@...> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 5:44:53 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? > > > This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while. > > In about two years, I plan to buy a boat for some retirement adventures. One of > the boats on my "short list" is the Cal 33. I know that there are some 33 > owners here and I've got a quick question for you. > > > How do you think a 33-2 would do for a Stream crossing to the Bahamas and for > poking around the Bahamas and Keys? Assume the short keel version. And, of > course, assume the crew is picking its weather windows and generally being a > chicken when chosing routes/destinations. > > I hesitate to call this off-shore sailing, but certainly the dash over to Bimini > or maybe down to Puerto Rico would feel like that. How do you think a > well-maintained, but generally unmodified, '87/'88 33-2 would perform in this > island hopping scenario? > > I've Googled like crazy, but there's just not a lot of discussion of the 33 out > there. But, it looks to be a good fit for my family's wants/needs. > > Thanks! > > John > Edmond, OK >

In 1986 a Scheel keel was a fin that is flared at the bottom, not bulbed. It is several inches wider at the bottom than at the hull. It also has an angled back edge to match the forward edge of the keel. Very efficient for a shoal keel. The attached pictures are the best I could find on my computer. Somewhere upstairs I have a film photo that is much clearer. The O'Day 322 that was built with the hull molds of the Cal 33-2 had a wing keel option. I cannot attest to the quality of the layup versus my boat. I know my hull is quite thick and very stiff! Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: johntturpin <jo… [at] teamturpin.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 1:49:24 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? (John) Thanks, Donald. That's a great testimonial and exactly the sort of report that I was hoping for. I hadn't seen the "Scheel keel" term associated with 33's before your post. I had seen the deep fin and the shoal keel. But, I'd not noticed any type of bulb on the shoal keel. Was your bulbed keel available from the manufacturer (Jenson?)? Or, do all of the shallow keel have these and I just didn't notice it? And, as for the comments about wild Stream rides. I have some friends that just experienced such a crossing. Earlier this year, they meticulously waited for perfect weather for a crossing to Bimini. When they were given a perfect forecast, with no chance of adverse wind, they set out. Half way across, the wind did a 180 and came right out of the north. Within minutes, they were on a roller coaster. They were sailing a circa-'60s Meridian with heavy deep keel and they made it without incident. But they were certainly hanging on for their dear lives. Thanks again, Donald. Your boat sounds great. John

Hard to see with the shadows. Was wondering, there is one for sale in Loraine on the great lakes, with a bit cleaner view of the keel....is this the same configuration Donald. Sure is a good looking boat...:) http://proto2.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photo_gallery.jsp?slim=broker&lang=en&ywo=freeman-eckley&hosturl=freeman-eckley&units=Feet&id=2209368&back=/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp&boat_id=2209368 If the link does not take you directly to the picture its picture number 19 and 20 Best regards /ch On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net>wrote: > [Attachment(s) <#12d817b59712d4f3_TopText> from Donald Dutton included > below] > > In 1986 a Scheel keel was a fin that is flared at the bottom, not bulbed. > It is several inches wider at the bottom than at the hull. It also has an > angled back edge to match the forward edge of the keel. Very efficient for a > shoal keel. The attached pictures are the best I could find on my > computer. Somewhere upstairs I have a film photo that is much clearer. > > The O'Day 322 that was built with the hull molds of the Cal 33-2 had a wing > keel option. I cannot attest to the quality of the layup versus my boat. I > know my hull is quite thick and very stiff! > > Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" > > "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you > didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail > away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. > Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* johntturpin <jo… [at] teamturpin.org> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, January 13, 2011 1:49:24 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? (John) > > > > Thanks, Donald. That's a great testimonial and exactly the sort of report > that I was hoping for. I hadn't seen the "Scheel keel" term associated with > 33's before your post. I had seen the deep fin and the shoal keel. But, I'd > not noticed any type of bulb on the shoal keel. Was your bulbed keel > available from the manufacturer (Jenson?)? Or, do all of the shallow keel > have these and I just didn't notice it? > > And, as for the comments about wild Stream rides. I have some friends that > just experienced such a crossing. Earlier this year, they meticulously > waited for perfect weather for a crossing to Bimini. When they were given a > perfect forecast, with no chance of adverse wind, they set out. Half way > across, the wind did a 180 and came right out of the north. Within minutes, > they were on a roller coaster. They were sailing a circa-'60s Meridian with > heavy deep keel and they made it without incident. But they were certainly > hanging on for their dear lives. > > Thanks again, Donald. Your boat sounds great. > > John > > Attachment(s) from Donald Dutton > > 2 of 2 File(s) > Going Away Party Trip and House 045.jpg<http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16485695/1737355003/name/Going%20Away%20Party%20Trip%20and%20House%20045%2Ejpg> > Going Away Party Trip and House 047.jpg<http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16485695/1526852309/name/Going%20Away%20Party%20Trip%20and%20House%20047%2Ejpg> > > -- /ch

Hey Chris, Just make the the 29's cockpit look like the 33's... cb

Wow! That is IDENTICAL to my boat -- they even have the same cockpit table attached to the binnacle on the helm! I have a slightly different color non-skid and different color cushions, but the same layout and style! If you drop down from the bell on the bulkhead to starboard of the mast, that is where I have my Dickinson diesel fired heater mounted. Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 2:31:50 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? (John) Hard to see with the shadows. Was wondering, there is one for sale in Loraine on the great lakes, with a bit cleaner view of the keel....is this the same configuration Donald. Sure is a good looking boat...:) http://proto2.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photo_gallery.jsp?slim=broker〈=en&ywo=freeman-eckley&hosturl=freeman-eckley&units=Feet&id=2209368&back=/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp&boat_id=2209368 If the link does not take you directly to the picture its picture number 19 and 20 Best regards /ch

That is one of the nicest cockpits and layouts I've seen...summer project..:) /ch On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > Hey Chris, > > Just make the the 29's cockpit look like the 33's... > > cb > > > > > -- /ch

F&E are very reputable brokers as well. This is the group that my friend bought his Ericson from, which sadly ended up on the rocks in Honduras. I never realized what a nice boat the 33 is. One thing that puzzles me and I'm asking to learn, is that I always do two things when I see a boat I like and start to study it. I look at the numbers and then try to talk to owners about heavy air and gale force wind condition performance. In other words how does the boat perform under sever wind condition when under storm sail hove too. Often the numbers don't match up with the performance descriptions under these conditions. The Albin Ballad and Vega are classic examples, true blue water boats with crappy numbers. So was wondering, since the capsize ration is >2 on this model how much value can actually be placed in numbers such as these. Attached is a comparison between the 29 & 33 ref: http://image-ination.com/sailcalc.html /ch

One of the main reasons I bought my boat, other than the performance under sail, was the cockpit design. The seating area inside the cockpit and the elevated area by the winches is angled perfectly so that when going to weather, they are flat. As well, to either side of the helm (if you look at the photo that shows the engine instruments) the floor is similarly angled so your leeward foot is standing on a flat surface when heeled. Both features make the boat extremely comfortable to sail when heeled! The main winches for the jib sheets can easily be reached from either behind or in front of the helm, making the boat very easy to sail short-handed. And the mainsheet and all halyards are lead to stoppers that are just in front of the forward edge of the cockpit so everything can be run from inside the cockpit. I especially like the two winches, one on either side of the companionway that can pull on any line from any of the stoppers. Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 3:25:48 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cockpit That is one of the nicest cockpits and layouts I've seen...summer project..:) /ch On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >Hey Chris, > >Just make the the 29's cockpit look like the 33's... > >cb > > > > > > -- /ch

Thanks for bring this up, its such an attractive layout and design on deck. Much to be learned here. Best regards /ch

When I was in the storm on the Gulf of Mexico I never once felt the least bit worried about capsize. I have a angle of heel indicator mounted in the cockpit and never saw more than 35 degrees even as I crested the waves. I did not see the guage the 5 times I had boarding seas, but the boat never felt like I had lost control of her at all. She has a very large rudder that gives really solid response. I hove to in storm conditions on a trip from Panama City to Tampa and the boat held her heading very well for many hours in 12 -16 foot seas. We went down the Hudson River from West Point to Liberty Landing in winds that were blowing 30 - 35 knots with the sails wing and wing doing close to hull speed and I had one hand on the wheel and one hand on a jib sheet so I could dump the jib if I had to. Sailed like that for over 4 hours and was not even tired -- didn't want it to end! And we beat up Galveston Bay in 50 + knots (reported by radio from the tankers that passed us in the ship channel) with a double reefed main and no jib and the boat responded very well to the helm even when almost stopped cold when crashing into the steep waves. Galveston Bay is only 9 - 10 feet deep, so 4 foot waves are a serious issue and very steep. We maintained a fairly steady 4 knots with the occasional slow down from an especially steep sea or when the keel dragged in the mud.

Great story....read these with pleasure and joy and would read more any time and certainly was not questioning your experience. Im trying to understand the numbers as a "learning exercise" and the more I hear and talk to skipper about their boats, the conclusion I come too is that the numbers are mostly theoretical...which makes it far more challenging to assess boat performance under a variety of conditions.. Best regards and thanks for the info. /ch

Sorry, bad wording. I meant I stand by experience over the numbers in this instance. I believe that there are many esoteric things that go into how a boat handles that can't be modeled in an engineers work. It is not like joining two parts of a bridge where measurements and calculations of strength are king. In sailboats there seems to be a "factor" that can't be put into just the numbers. (Of course there are classic cases of engineers being surprised like the famous oscillating bridge!) While I can't stand the man personally, Rod Johnstone has successfully designed boats outside of the numbers and has fought the safety committees tooth and nail to get some of his designs accepted. They say the boats will capsize, but the sailing experience and racing experience shows them to be able performers that self-right even though the numbers say they won't. Obviously Rod understands the concepts in an esoteric manner that the numbers just cannot predict! Sharing of information for better understanding is one of the blessings of this group. I have learned a lot especially from the posts that I don't know enough about to ably add a reply! Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 4:30:58 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? (Chris) Great story....read these with pleasure and joy and would read more any time and certainly was not questioning your experience. Im trying to understand the numbers as a "learning exercise" and the more I hear and talk to skipper about their boats, the conclusion I come too is that the numbers are mostly theoretical...which makes it far more challenging to assess boat performance under a variety of conditions.. Best regards and thanks for the info. /ch

'There is a lot of truth to what you are saying about design and construction. There are many things from what I have read and observed that are simply not quantifiable, rather based on experiences by those who have spend a lifetime at something. Be it intuition, knowledge or experience, there is nothing more gratifying when watching an old timer look at a vessel and have that approving grin on his face, as if to say, "this be a boat I would take to sea". I have a friend who is a retired Tall Ship Captain. Spend over 45 years at sea shuttling between Australia and Britain and only came home to take care of his aging mom who passed away recently. I asked him once, "if you were to buy a boat under 35 feet what would it be" .... "Colin Archer" was the response...''its the only vessel I would take to sea"..when pressed why, he simply smiled and said, "bone up on it, they are build like the proverbial outhouse [with a very British accent]" .... guys like that are cool in my book as they are always encouraging and make you discover what they know already. Thanks for the stories about your experiences. Its refreshing to listen too. Best regards /ch On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net>wrote: > > > Sorry, bad wording. I meant I stand by experience over the numbers in this > instance. I believe that there are many esoteric things that go into how a > boat handles that can't be modeled in an engineers work. It is not like > joining two parts of a bridge where measurements and calculations of > strength are king. In sailboats there seems to be a "factor" that can't be > put into just the numbers. (Of course there are classic cases of engineers > being surprised like the famous oscillating bridge!) > > While I can't stand the man personally, Rod Johnstone has successfully > designed boats outside of the numbers and has fought the safety committees > tooth and nail to get some of his designs accepted. They say the boats will > capsize, but the sailing experience and racing experience shows them to be > able performers that self-right even though the numbers say they won't. > Obviously Rod understands the concepts in an esoteric manner that the > numbers just cannot predict! > > Sharing of information for better understanding is one of the blessings of > this group. I have learned a lot especially from the posts that I don't > know enough about to ably add a reply! > > > Donald Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" > > "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you > didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail > away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. > Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, January 13, 2011 4:30:58 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal 33-2 for a Gulf Stream crossing? > (Chris) > > > > Great story....read these with pleasure and joy and would read more any > time and certainly was not questioning your experience. > > Im trying to understand the numbers as a "learning exercise" and the more I > hear and talk to skipper about their boats, the conclusion I come too is > that the numbers are mostly theoretical...which makes it far more > challenging to assess boat performance under a variety of conditions.. > > Best regards and thanks for the info. > > /ch > > > > From the numbers I always thought the boat would be more tender, but she is >> not tender at all. But, she is fast and passes many boats with longer water >> lines. And her shoal keel, scheel or not, is very efficient even in deep >> water. I stand by my experience. I have sailed in boats that were supposed >> to be more stable than mine and found them to be rather tender in >> comparison. >> > > > > > > -- /ch

On 1/13/2011 9:25 PM, chris123 wrote: > > > > I have a friend who is a retired Tall Ship Captain. Spend over 45 > years at sea shuttling between Australia and Britain and only came > home to take care of his aging mom who passed away recently. I asked > him once, "if you were to buy a boat under 35 feet what would it be" > .... "Colin Archer" was the response...''its the only vessel I would > take to sea"..when pressed why, he simply smiled and said, "bone up on > it, they are build like the proverbial outhouse [with a very British > accent]" .... > Of course, that same kind of comment was made about the Cal 40 when it was a new design. In line with the earlier comment about how the boats are usually not the point of failure in tough conditions, we should remember John Rousmaniere's conclusion about the Fastnet race disaster, that if people had stayed with their boats, they'd still be alive. Similar lessons have come out of subsequent disasters. It's the source of the old saying about not leaving your boat until you have to step up into your raft. On the other hand, I am mindful of people like Ted Brewer who emphasize the differences in motion in different kinds of hulls. He created what I think he calls a comfort index, designed to predict how easy or uncomfortable a boat's motion will be at sea. His point is that the more comfortable vessel's crew will be less affected by bad conditions, and hence less likely to get in trouble. Chris Campbell

Chris....its was not meant as a negative comment at all, rather a point of tutalidge. As I learned something new about the 33 based on Donalds experience so the same applied to my friends instructions never heard of a Colin Archer before, then almost ended up buying one in Guatemala whom a local friend surveyed for me but the deal fell through on two accounts, had the photos assessed in a Boothe Bay Wooden Boat Shipyard, so far so good, but the owner would not forward me the hull number so a trace could be run on it. Deal dead. Its the learning experience from others that I was commenting on, and that like so many things, sailing and ship building is a shared experience where the novice learns from those who have been at it for a very long time. The smile of a an elder is all the encouragement you need that you are on the right course. Thats where I was going with this as there are so many designs that way outperform the numbers. Those are the designs that interest me as its a wonderful learning exercise. Best regards /ch

The second issue is learning where and how the numbers apply and I'm starting to trust them less and less. For example, lets look at two numbers, capsize ratio and motion comfort. The 33 is >2.0 which implies its not recommended as a cruising vessel based on the definitions, versus the 29 which is rated at 1.87 Same for the motion comfort index, again the 29 rates higher....so what to make of this? Based on Donald's performance descriptions I would rather be on a 33 then a 29 in the conditions he experienced. No question about it. Dam fine looking boat as well with a pretty impressive interior. So the conclusions I've come too is that numbers are just one factor, a baseline perhaps, that needs much fuller examination to truly understand the performance characteristics of a particular vessel. And this is where the design experience of particular individuals comes into play. Are they designing for a consumer target market to increase sales in a dormant market, or are they designing for a particular function or characteristic or intended usage? Or is it, I would say in most cases, a combination of the above. Hence I like older designs where builders were less encumbered by the restraints of market conditions or at least to a lesser degree then today to be fair. That was the second learning lesson....:) /ch

On 1/14/2011 10:12 AM, chris123 wrote: > > Chris....its was not meant as a negative comment at all, rather a > point of tutalidge. > I wasn't intending to argue, either, just to bring up various ways to look at the issue. It's how I learn things. > > > > Its the learning experience from others that I was commenting on, and > that like so many things, sailing and ship building is a shared > experience where the novice learns from those who have been at it for > a very long time. The smile of a an elder is all the encouragement you > need that you are on the right course. Thats where I was going with > this as there are so many designs that way outperform the numbers. > I think Ted Brewer agrees with you, especially as to performance in bad conditions. If the crew are thrown around so badly that they are all seasick or injured, a boat isn't going to do well. And as I recall, he was one who suggested that reduced wetted surface matters in light air but gives no advantage in high winds. Chris Campbell

On 1/14/2011 10:32 AM, chris123 wrote: > > Are they designing for a consumer target market to increase sales in a > dormant market, or are they designing for a particular function or > characteristic or intended usage? Or is it, I would say in most cases, > a combination of the above. Hence I like older designs where builders > were less encumbered by the restraints of market conditions or at > least to a lesser degree then today to be fair. > Custom designs will usually be attuned to the purchaser's specific intended uses, and therefore more interesting. Designs for mass production will be generic and in line with current fashion. It's not so much a matter of age as it is of who's buying the design. Olin Stephens was famous for his custom boats and that made for success in his designs for manufacturers. William Atkin did a lot of custom designs (plus all those cool ones for the magazines). Chris Campbell > >

John, I can't speak for the 33-2 Cal, but my wife and I have taken our Cal 2-27 to the Bahamas twice. There is plenty of water. Invest in some good charts. A GPS/chartplotter is quite handy. We cross from Pompano Beach to West End, across the bank to the Sea of Abaco, southward to Hope Town and Little Harbor, across to the Berry's then across the bank to Bimini. We never had issues with draft. We draw 4'6". As for crossing the Gulfstream, just pick a good weather window. Invest in adequate ground tackle for the Bahamas. Setting anchors can take patience and persistence. Michael s/v Magic Pompano Beach, FL