Insulation installation

Greets: One of the topics I've been reading up on is how to insulate your boat. The materials selections for this are varied and to a degree depend on the depth of your wallet and or the preferred R value. Material selection is not an issue as there are many that are suitable. When it comes to installation however there are two schools of thought on this and little consensus. The issue being moisture (and I can attest to that nasty issue from wintering over once). Method one suggests that the insulation should not be placed directly against the hull rather on batons to allow air to wick away the moisture between the insulation and hull. (I dont think this is right) Method two suggestions that moisture can be controlled by other means so place the material against the hull directly to keep out the max amount of coolness (I think this is the better way to go) As these two methods are diametrically opposed, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this issue and why they chose to install the installation in the manner that they did. Best regards and thanks /ch

Marine insulation must be non water absorbing, and not create noxious fumes when burned. This eliminates many terrestrial types of insulation. Joe D On 2/26/2011 5:25 PM, chris123 wrote: > Greets: > > One of the topics I've been reading up on is how to insulate your > boat. The materials selections for this are varied and to a degree > depend on the depth of your wallet and or the preferred R value. > Material selection is not an issue as there are many that are > suitable. When it comes to installation however there are two schools > of thought on this and little consensus. The issue being moisture (and > I can attest to that nasty issue from wintering over once). > > Method one suggests that the insulation should not be placed directly > against the hull rather on batons to allow air to wick away the > moisture between the insulation and hull. (I dont think this is right) > > Method two suggestions that moisture can be controlled by other means > so place the material against the hull directly to keep out the max > amount of coolness (I think this is the better way to go) > > As these two methods are diametrically opposed, I was wondering if > anyone has any experience with this issue and why they chose to > install the installation in the manner that they did. > > Best regards and thanks > > /ch > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3469 - Release Date: 02/26/11 02:34:00 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

That's correct, but the question remains bonded to the hull or not? That's the puzzle as many recommend that it is, and others recommend that it shouldn't be. Personally I think it should be to reduce transference of heat/cold and the moisture issue addressed by other means, like ventilation and a dry diesel heat source. Guess insulation is not a factor for most of the west coast boys...:) Becoming an issue for the east coast however if you are interested in prolonging the season indefinitely.. /ch

When I was in the Navy on the aircraft carrier, we used lagging systems to insulate. It was a fiberglass wadding like the pink stuff, but it had a heavy canvas like fabric on the exposed side. We would epoxy the lagging bolts to the bulkhead, then press the lagging sheets onto them so they would peirce the fabric, then we used tape to finish the edges and buttons on the ends of the lagging bolts. Then it would be painted with an oil based paint. the stuff lasts for eons. it also reduces noise as well as keep the environment where you want it. If you already know of this system, please disregard and I will spin my sea-stories and yarns elsewhere. . . aaaarrrrrrrrr. .. . . I'm sure that there are similar systems for smaller vessels. The key is, there is no glue involved, and it stays pretty dry. Brian Golden Shellback USS Carl Vinson, CVN 70 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ch… [at] gmail.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:07:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation That's correct, but the question remains bonded to the hull or not? That's the puzzle as many recommend that it is, and others recommend that it shouldn't be. Personally I think it should be to reduce transference of heat/cold and the moisture issue addressed by other means, like ventilation and a dry diesel heat source. Guess insulation is not a factor for most of the west coast boys...:) Becoming an issue for the east coast however if you are interested in prolonging the season indefinitely.. /ch

Some have commented in the past about hating it, but many CALs acame with a foam backed liner adhered to the hull. Worked well for reducing sound and condensation. Lasted for decades. Still have it in my 37 year old T/2. Reggie To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: bh… [at] msn.com Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 03:32:05 +0000 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation When I was in the Navy on the aircraft carrier, we used lagging systems to insulate. It was a fiberglass wadding like the pink stuff, but it had a heavy canvas like fabric on the exposed side. We would epoxy the lagging bolts to the bulkhead, then press the lagging sheets onto them so they would peirce the fabric, then we used tape to finish the edges and buttons on the ends of the lagging bolts. Then it would be painted with an oil based paint. the stuff lasts for eons. it also reduces noise as well as keep the environment where you want it. If you already know of this system, please disregard and I will spin my sea-stories and yarns elsewhere. . . aaaarrrrrrrrr. .. . . I'm sure that there are similar systems for smaller vessels. The key is, there is no glue involved, and it stays pretty dry. Brian Golden Shellback USS Carl Vinson, CVN 70 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ch… [at] gmail.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:07:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation That's correct, but the question remains bonded to the hull or not? That's the puzzle as many recommend that it is, and others recommend that it shouldn't be. Personally I think it should be to reduce transference of heat/cold and the moisture issue addressed by other means, like ventilation and a dry diesel heat source. Guess insulation is not a factor for most of the west coast boys...:) Becoming an issue for the east coast however if you are interested in prolonging the season indefinitely.. /ch

MIne's been stripped off and replaced with a nice hydroscopic poly something material. It looks good. However I would like to eventually prepare the boat for year round travels and staying on. Ive learned from experience how to control moisture but there is the heat transference issue the needs to be considered. Breathing alone below the due point puts out about 2L of water per day. So you need lots of ventilation and a dry heat source that is self contained. Either diesel or a closed loop propane heat system. Electrical is not an option as you are not always tied to a cord. I can understand both view points on insulation bonded or not bonded to the hull and was wondering if anyone has gone to the trouble of insulating their boat and how they did it. On the cruisers lists there are many that have so I have a pretty good idea of what can be done. Was wondering if anyone has tricked out a Cal however for four season cruising, and if so what were the results. Best and thanks. /ch

On 2/26/2011 5:25 PM, chris123 wrote: > > Greets: > > One of the topics I've been reading up on is how to insulate your > boat. The materials selections for this are varied and to a degree > depend on the depth of your wallet and or the preferred R value. > Material selection is not an issue as there are many that are > suitable. When it comes to installation however there are two schools > of thought on this and little consensus. The issue being moisture (and > I can attest to that nasty issue from wintering over once). > > Method one suggests that the insulation should not be placed directly > against the hull rather on batons to allow air to wick away the > moisture between the insulation and hull. (I dont think this is right) > > Method two suggestions that moisture can be controlled by other means > so place the material against the hull directly to keep out the max > amount of coolness (I think this is the better way to go) > If you have an air space behind the insulation, warm interior air is going to circulate on the cold side of the insulation and condence out on the hull. Sounds like a mess to me. If you're using some sort of semi-rigid closed-cell insulation, securing it right against the hull keeps moist air out, and the closed-cell nature means that very little moisture wil migrate outward toward the cold side. Wooden boats with ceiling--hull liners secured to frames--typically are ventilated top & bottom (and often by gaps in the ceiling strips) so fresh air can circulate and prevent rot. It's not done for insulation purposes. Chris Campbell

Thanks Chris....that was the direction I was headed as well. Either a closed cell product or bubble on Mylar stuff (forget the name) and bonded to the hull with the bilge being the collection system. Its down the road stuff but interesting to work out ahead of time so it does not interfere with planned work. Best regards /ch

We used a closed cell 1/2 inch thick foam insulation that I bought in 4 X 8 panels from Home Depot. Placed the panels directly against the hull and taped the joints with duct tape. Using a sharp utility knife I was able to do the whole boat in 2 days including the hull in the aft storage locker. We survived 15 below temps in New Jersey with this system and almost zero condensation behind the panels. I pulled all of the cabin cushions and taped the insulation against the hull behind them. It was very inexpensive and pretty easy to do. Come spring, I numbered all of the pieces and stored them and re-used them the next year. I have attached a photo with my then 5 month old son Chris and my 10 year old daughter playing in the middle of winter. Very comfy. It also helped that the diesel fired Dickinson heater kept air turning over in the cabin as the exhaust gases rose up the chimney. Though, I did run two 4 inch dryer vents from the dorade boxes down to the base of the heater to allow most air burned to come from outside. We survived two winters living aboard in New Jersey with this insulation system. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 7:48:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation Thanks Chris....that was the direction I was headed as well. Either a closed cell product or bubble on Mylar stuff (forget the name) and bonded to the hull with the bilge being the collection system. Its down the road stuff but interesting to work out ahead of time so it does not interfere with planned work. Best regards /ch

Don, I guess you have a bolt on keel, so you would not have a large bilge area to contend with? How readily does the stuff bend? Many Thanks Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Dutton Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 4:35 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation (Chris) [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from Donald Dutton included below] We used a closed cell 1/2 inch thick foam insulation that I bought in 4 X 8 panels from Home Depot. Placed the panels directly against the hull and taped the joints with duct tape. Using a sharp utility knife I was able to do the whole boat in 2 days including the hull in the aft storage locker. We survived 15 below temps in New Jersey with this system and almost zero condensation behind the panels. I pulled all of the cabin cushions and taped the insulation against the hull behind them. It was very inexpensive and pretty easy to do. Come spring, I numbered all of the pieces and stored them and re-used them the next year. I have attached a photo with my then 5 month old son Chris and my 10 year old daughter playing in the middle of winter. Very comfy. It also helped that the diesel fired Dickinson heater kept air turning over in the cabin as the exhaust gases rose up the chimney. Though, I did run two 4 inch dryer vents from the dorade boxes down to the base of the heater to allow most air burned to come from outside. We survived two winters living aboard in New Jersey with this insulation system. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 7:48:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation Thanks Chris....that was the direction I was headed as well. Either a closed cell product or bubble on Mylar stuff (forget the name) and bonded to the hull with the bilge being the collection system. Its down the road stuff but interesting to work out ahead of time so it does not interfere with planned work. Best regards /ch Attachment(s) from Donald Dutton 1 of 1 File(s) [http://l.yimg.com/kq/static/images/yg/img/doc/image.gif] image000.jpg<http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16485695/1751166674/name/image000%2Ejpg>

Thanks Donald...much appreciated. Where in New Jersey did you stay. Having an outside air supply is critical to keep the moisture down as well as good dry heat source like a diesel furance. The propane systems I looked at keep moisture down from the combustion process by shooting it up the stack and bringing fresh air into the burn chamber via a double walled pipe. The implication is that moist interior air is not part of the combustion process, so needs to be removed by an alternative method. Breasting alone generates approx 2/L per person per day. Never mind the pressure cooker...thats another funny story for another day. Its one of the advantages of using a diesel furnace in cold climates. My Norwegian friend swears by them. She had a diesel stove that ran tipple duty on her fishing boat, stove/cooker, heater, and kettle warmer for tea on the go all the time..:) Best and many thanks. I'm sure you have good memories of these adventures. /ch

Spent the first winter at Liberty Landing Marina on the Hudson River and actually in the state park that houses Ellis Island, et al. Second winter was on the Cheesequake Creek in Morgan Marina which is where we had the two days of 15 below zero. We had an ice storm the day before and the 15 below kept the salt from melting the ice on the highways. They closed I-78 and had to take food and blankets to cars and trucks stranded on the freeways. Those two years living aboard the boat with my wife and 3 children were some of the best years ever. There were challenges for sure, but we had a really great time. I home schooled the girls and took them on many field trips, DC, New York City (right across the river), Baltimore, and Philadelphia, etc. My Christmas tree on the bow of the boat got honks from cars passing on the Garden State Parkway when we were at Morgan. Never did that again -- it took months to finally get all of the pine needles out of the halyards, sheets, and anchor locker! The best part was going on vacation -- simply untie the lines and head out. All clothes, food, etc. were already on the boat. Only preparation was a little time making sure everything was stowed. Nylon nets hanging from eye hooks will hold an amazing amount of things and they simply swing from side to side as you sail, spilling nothing. We had one over the galley with bananas, apples, and other fresh veggies, one on either side of the cabin with clothes and school books, and one on either side in the v-berth for our clothes, cameras, ditty bags, etc. Had two cats on board as well. People on the dock loved the cats as they kept the mice and rats off the dock. We sailed all the way up the Hudson 20 miles north of West Point and anchored at Cornwall on the Hudson, toured West Point, toured the zoo and museum at Bear Mountain, and stayed for days at Haverstraw anchored off the beach at the state park on Haverstraw Bay. What a great trip! We actually might live aboard again soon. My daughter is currently living on our Cal in Alameda and going to school at Mills College in Oakland. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 1:53:58 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation (Chris) Thanks Donald...much appreciated. Where in New Jersey did you stay. Having an outside air supply is critical to keep the moisture down as well as good dry heat source like a diesel furance. The propane systems I looked at keep moisture down from the combustion process by shooting it up the stack and bringing fresh air into the burn chamber via a double walled pipe. The implication is that moist interior air is not part of the combustion process, so needs to be removed by an alternative method. Breasting alone generates approx 2/L per person per day. Never mind the pressure cooker...thats another funny story for another day. Its one of the advantages of using a diesel furnace in cold climates. My Norwegian friend swears by them. She had a diesel stove that ran tipple duty on her fishing boat, stove/cooker, heater, and kettle warmer for tea on the go all the time..:) Best and many thanks. I'm sure you have good memories of these adventures. /ch

Charlie, that is right -- the bilge is very shallow and we did not bother to insulate there. But, I did put foam behind the fuel and water tanks under the bunks. The foam was plenty flexible to fit the curves of the hull and would bend to a pretty good angle. I taped the bottom edge up against hard chines in the pan in the hull and then taped the panels together as they went up the sides. That way there was no duct tape residue anywhere that was visible when the foam was removed. Top of the foam was wedged up against the hull to deck joint and didn't need to be taped. I did not insulate above the bunks in the main cabin because in the Cal 33-2 there is a vinyl insulated liner that starts at the headliner and goes down to the cabinets. The ports would drip and had to be wiped dry every morning. I did insulate the bilge aft of the engine under the quarter berth where my daughter slept. There are large plywood covers that were pretty easy to unscrew and remove, put the foam down, and reattach the plywood. There was some condensation under that foam, but it ran straight to the bilge and when it finally built up enough I would run the bilge pump -- maybe once every 3 weeks (?) if I remember right. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 1:47:26 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation (Chris) Don, I guess you have a bolt on keel, so you would not have a large bilge area to contend with? How readily does the stuff bend? Many Thanks Charlie

Thanks Donald....great story....I would not hesitate if I were you. Nothing like it. Cant explain it. /ch On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net>wrote: > > > > We actually might live aboard again soon. My daughter is currently living > on our Cal in Alameda and going to school at Mills College in Oakland. >

On the 29 I found this area the port quarter birth to be the coldest area of the boat due to the hull configuration. Also the port cabinets, the small ones, on the 2-29 were a source of cold air from the engine compartment. I never could figure out where the air was coming from into the engine compartment as everything topside was sealed and sealed again. Check with the drawings however when I got home, these cabinets are designed to be removed so the engine can be installed/removed hence they leaked like sieves. Solved that problem by loading the drawers with clothes. Never did really solve the problem with the rear quarter birth, so just build up a wall each night to keep the cold air at bay. Hence the contemplations on insulating the boat. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Donald Dutton <dn… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > I did insulate the bilge aft of the engine under the quarter berth where my daughter slept. There are large plywood covers that were pretty easy to unscrew and remove, put the foam down, and reattach the plywood. There was some condensation under that foam, but it ran straight to the bilge and when it finally built up enough I would run the bilge pump -- maybe once every 3 weeks (?) if I remember right. >

Don: Do you think one could permanently glue this ½" foam to the hull and then glue vinyl over the foam to finish it? Danny --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Donald Dutton <dnlddttn@...> wrote: > > We used a closed cell 1/2 inch thick foam insulation that I bought in 4 X 8 > panels from Home Depot. Placed the panels directly against the hull and taped > the joints with duct tape. Using a sharp utility knife I was able to do the > whole boat in 2 days including the hull in the aft storage locker. We survived > 15 below temps in New Jersey with this system and almost zero condensation > behind the panels. I pulled all of the cabin cushions and taped the insulation > against the hull behind them. It was very inexpensive and pretty easy to do. > Come spring, I numbered all of the pieces and stored them and re-used them the > next year. > > I have attached a photo with my then 5 month old son Chris and my 10 year old > daughter playing in the middle of winter. Very comfy. It also helped that the > diesel fired Dickinson heater kept air turning over in the cabin as the exhaust > gases rose up the chimney. Though, I did run two 4 inch dryer vents from the > dorade boxes down to the base of the heater to allow most air burned to come > from outside. > > We survived two winters living aboard in New Jersey with this insulation system. > > Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" > > > "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't > do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the > safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." > ........Mark Twain > > > > > ________________________________ > From: chris123 <chris.herrnberger@...> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 7:48:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Insulation installation > > > Thanks Chris....that was the direction I was headed as well. Either a closed > cell product or bubble on Mylar stuff (forget the name) and bonded to the hull > with the bilge being the collection system. Its down the road stuff but > interesting to work out ahead of time so it does not interfere with planned > work. > > > Best regards > > /ch >

I was considering slats and a different type of insulation but vinyl it should work to cover it. Btw if you need teak on the cheap, the stuff you call door skins in the States at Home Depot comes on skids made of rough cut Luann which is really a Philippine Mahogany if I am not mistaken. Hard as nails this stuff is. Ask for the pallets as they go strait into the dumpster. Separate the 1x6x8 from the 3x3x4's and you have wonderful wood to work with provided you can deal with rough cut lumber. So far I have two pallets disassembled, figure I need at least one more...:) On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Danny <db… [at] easystreet.net> wrote: > Don: > > Do you think one could permanently glue this ½" foam to the hull and then glue vinyl over the foam to finish it? > > Danny

Yes, I do think that you could permanently glue this foam insulation in place and cover it. I have left some of the foam in place in the aft sections of the boat some of which I did glue in place. It has not degraded one bit in the past 15 years that it has been there! Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" "Twenty Years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ........Mark Twain From: Danny <db… [at] easystreet.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 5:19:35 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Insulation installation (Chris) Don: Do you think one could permanently glue this ½" foam to the hull and then glue vinyl over the foam to finish it? Danny -

On 2/28/2011 9:06 PM, Donald Dutton wrote: > Yes, I do think that you could permanently glue this foam insulation > in place and cover it. I have left some of the foam in place in the > aft sections of the boat some of which I did glue in place. It has > not degraded one bit in the past 15 years that it has been there! One caution about using "styrofoam" (extruded polystyrene, have I got that right?) insulation is that it it flammable, and ideally needs some sort of ignition barrier. In houses, it's usually gypsum drywall or some other applied surface material. I think most residential building codes require this. It's important to at least be aware of the issue so you can employ the stuff in a manner that avoids exposure to ignition sources (don't use bare foam right over an alcohol stove, for example). Chris Campbell >