3M 5200

I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746 > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". I do recall a few purported solvents, however. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746 > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

When I took my 7 ports out, just used a number of thin putty knives and drove them in radially, I was then able use my Multimaster to "burn/cut" out the sealant. Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. I have never used it - so cannot comment. Heat guns also soften the material so it can be pealed - penetrated - debonded. The factory says if you smell burning 5200 you can die. I guess if you stick a screw driver in your eye you can go blind also. Gotta die of something - whatever! I've never had a problem getting 5200 off... as in the past that is all I used. Now I like the elasticity of other products. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". I do recall a few purported solvents, however. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746 > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

need some! To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: hu… [at] bah.com Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:22:33 -0400 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". I do recall a few purported solvents, however. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746 > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

I know of no reason to use 5200. Personally, I only use *Sikaflex* 291 *LOT * * * ***Allen * On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > When I took my 7 ports out, just used a number of thin putty knives and > drove them in radially, I was then able use my Multimaster to “burn/cut” out > the sealant. > > > > Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims > to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. > > > > I have never used it – so cannot comment. > > > > Heat guns also soften the material so it can be pealed – penetrated – > debonded. > > > > The factory says if you smell burning 5200 you can die. > > > > I guess if you stick a screw driver in your eye you can go blind also. > > > > Gotta die of something – whatever! > > > > I’ve never had a problem getting 5200 off… as in the past that is all I > used. > > > > Now I like the elasticity of other products. > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:23 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *r good > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM > *To:* ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > I asked 3M about 5200. > > > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from > a > > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > > > > Dear Reggie, > > > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > > > UNCURED > > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > > > CURED > > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use > a > > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is > important > > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, > easier > > to remove. > > > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > > > Regards, > > > > Clauzel > > 3M Marine Trades > > 877-366-2746 > > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us > > > > >

My rub with Sika products goes back to the old days on my Cal 9.2. We bedded the lights with Sika products. The material came off and marked gear and stained decks, getting more chalky and soft cracking as it aged. Still a fan, I have re-bedded the same lights in 2005 with Sika 295UV three part and that material has performed well, with only one spot "rotting out", the material softens, and then chalks and then boogers out. I chose this material as it was the only adhesive that I located that was recommended for gluing Acrylics (lights). [cid:im… [at] 01CBFF7A.AD523510][cid:im… [at] 01CBFF7A.AD523510][cid:im… [at] 01CBFF7A.AD523510] I'm sure the product has improved. With the 4000, 4200, and 5200 products, I have not yet had a problem... so I stick with what has worked so far. They were not recommended for this task. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:17 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 ports I know of no reason to use 5200. Personally, I only use Sikaflex 291 LOT Allen On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: When I took my 7 ports out, just used a number of thin putty knives and drove them in radially, I was then able use my Multimaster to "burn/cut" out the sealant. Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. I have never used it - so cannot comment. Heat guns also soften the material so it can be pealed - penetrated - debonded. The factory says if you smell burning 5200 you can die. I guess if you stick a screw driver in your eye you can go blind also. Gotta die of something - whatever! I've never had a problem getting 5200 off... as in the past that is all I used. Now I like the elasticity of other products. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". I do recall a few purported solvents, however. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746<tel:877-366-2746> > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

As long as we are talking caulks. The only product that will stick to plexiglass and wood is Life Seal. I tried absolutely everything and it is the only thing that worked. If you get it at West Marine, check the expire date, it might be in the past. Allen On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:47 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > My rub with Sika products goes back to the old days on my Cal 9.2. > > > > We bedded the lights with Sika products. > > > > The material came off and marked gear and stained decks, getting more > chalky and soft cracking as it aged. > > > > Still a fan, > > I have re-bedded the same lights in 2005 with Sika 295UV three part and > that material has performed well, with only one spot “rotting out”, the > material softens, and then chalks and then boogers out. > > I chose this material as it was the only adhesive that I located that was > recommended for gluing Acrylics (lights). > > > > > > I’m sure the product has improved. > > > > With the 4000, 4200, and 5200 products, I have not yet had a problem… so I > stick with what has worked so far. > > They were not recommended for this task. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:17 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 ports > > > > > > I know of no reason to use 5200. Personally, I only use *Sikaflex* 291 * > LOT* > > > > *Allen* > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > > When I took my 7 ports out, just used a number of thin putty knives and > drove them in radially, I was then able use my Multimaster to “burn/cut” out > the sealant. > > > > Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims > to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. > > > > I have never used it – so cannot comment. > > > > Heat guns also soften the material so it can be pealed – penetrated – > debonded. > > > > The factory says if you smell burning 5200 you can die. > > > > I guess if you stick a screw driver in your eye you can go blind also. > > > > Gotta die of something – whatever! > > > > I’ve never had a problem getting 5200 off… as in the past that is all I > used. > > > > Now I like the elasticity of other products. > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:23 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *r good > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM > *To:* ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > I asked 3M about 5200. > > > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from > a > > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > > > > Dear Reggie, > > > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > > > UNCURED > > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > > > CURED > > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use > a > > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is > important > > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, > easier > > to remove. > > > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > > > Regards, > > > > Clauzel > > 3M Marine Trades > > 877-366-2746 > > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us > > > > > > >

I order the important sealers from Jamestown Distributors, like the 295UV, primer and cleaner. Always fresh. They also have glass bi-axial tape that I like for re-tabbing. [cid:image001.jpg@01CBFF7D.51E4DFE0]<javascript:%20openBigImg();> If you don't work with them you might have some success... I think they specialize in wooden boat supplies. The Sika 295 UV 3 part system makes a claim to glue your windows to wood. * Sikaflex(r)-295 UV Sikaflex-295 UV is a fast curing, one-component, flexible, high performance polyurethane-based adhesive for bonding and sealing of windows and portholes. Close Details<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> Use Sikaflex-295 UV is suitable for all types of organic (PC, PMMA) windowpanes. Its high degree of UV resistance also allows the use of the system as a weatherproof sealant. Characteristics and Advantages * UV resistant, no cracking or chalking * Salt water resistant * Fast tack-free time * Paintable and sandable * Stable * Bonds and seals in one step * Initial load bearing capacity * High thixotropy/good gap filling properties * Non-yellowing * Non-chalking Color Black, White Packaging 300 ml cartridge Product Data Sheet Sikaflex-295 UV<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=987> Material Safety Data Sheet Sikaflex-295 UV<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=890> Other Documents Sikaflex-295 UV (Certificate)<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1256> [cid:image002.jpg@01CBFF7E.2B2FB4A0] * SikaSil(r) SG-20 SikaSil SG-20 is a neutral curing silicone adhesive which combines mechanical strength with high elongation. It has excellent adhesion to a wide range of substrates. Close Details<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> Use SikaSil SG-20 can be used for structural sealant glazing or as a residential window backbedding/glazing adhesive, or for bonding solar modules and other high-demanding industrial applications. Tests with original substrates and conditions must be performed to ensure adhesion and material compatibility. Characteristics and Advantages * Excellent bond to glass, metals, coated metals, plastics and wood * Outstanding UV and weathering resistance * Fire rated (EN 11925-2/DIN 4102-B1) * Neutral cure * Meets requirements of ASTM C1184 Color Black/White Packaging Component A 260 kg drum, Component B 20 kg pail Product Data Sheet SikaSil SG-20<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1252> Material Safety Data Sheet SikaSil SG-20<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=930> * Sika(r) Aktivator Sika Aktivator is a moisture sensitive liquid for the pre-treatment of surfaces to improve adhesion of Sikaflex adhesives. Close Details<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> Use Sika Aktivator improves adhesion of Sikaflex adhesives on glass and ceramic coated windshield glass. Characteristics and Advantages * One component * Fast drying Color Transparent, Clear Packaging 250 ml and 1000 ml can, 1.1 ml single use pads Product Data Sheet Sika Aktivator<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1048> Material Safety Data Sheet Sika Aktivator <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=912> Other Documents Sika Aktivator (Certificate)<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1260> [cid:image003.jpg@01CBFF7E.2B2FB4A0] * Sika(r) Primer-206 G+P Sika Primer-206 G+P is a black, moisture-curing liquid primer specifically formulated for the treatment of bond faces in direct glazing work prior to application of Sika polyurethane direct glazing adhesives and to improve adhesion of other Sika products. Close Details<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> Use Sika Primer-206 G+P is used to touch-up pinchweld scratches, and also act as a corrosion inhibitor on metals. May also be used when a frit band is not available on the perimeter of the glass part to provide partial UV protection to the polyurethane. It is also used as a general purpose primer which is used to promote adhesion to: glass, FRP, ABS, plastics, aluminum, steel and paints. Characteristics and Advantages * One component * Fast drying * Wide temperature range Color Black Packaging 100 ml, 250 ml, 1.4 ml single use stix Product Data Sheet Sika Primer-206 G+P<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1009> Material Safety Data Sheet Sika Primer-206 G+P <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=918> Other Documents Sika Primer-206 G+P (Certificate)<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1259> [cid:image004.jpg@01CBFF7E.2B2FB4A0][cid:image005.jpg@01CBFF7E.2B2FB4A0] * Print<javascript:window.print();> * Imprint<http://usa.sika.com/en/footer/imprint.html> * Legal Notice<http://usa.sika.com/en/footer/legal_notice.html> * (c) Copyright 2011 Sika Group * Quick Navigation Sika Corporation U.S.<http://usa.sika.com/en/group.html> * About us<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Aboutus.html> * Career<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Career.html> * Sustainability<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/sustainability1.html> * News<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/News.html> * Events<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Events.html> * Networks<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Links.html> Products & Solutions<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html> * Construction<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02.html> * Concrete Admixture Technology<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a001.html> * Concrete Repair and Protection<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a002.html> * Crack Repair & Injection Resins<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a007.html> * Epoxy Resin & Structural Engineering Systems<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a013.html> * Grouting & Quickset Mortars<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a005.html> * Joint Sealing & Adhesive Systems<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a008.html> * Waterproofing<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a015.html> * Roofing<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a011.html> * Industrial Flooring<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a004.html> * DIY/Home Centers<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a024.html> * Wood Floor Bonding<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a023.html> * Training Academy<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/const_training.html> * Industry<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01.html> * Appliance and Components<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a000.html> * Aftermarket (AGR)<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a001.html> * Automotive OEM<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/automotive_oem.html> * Automotive OES<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/automotive_oes.html> * Building Components<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a004.html> * Transportation<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a005.html> * Marine<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006.html> * Renewable Energies<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a007.html> * Automotive<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/Automotiveredirect.html> * Roofing<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/redirect_roofing.html> * DIY / Home Centers<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/merchants_diy.html> * News<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/News.html> * * Download<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/download.html> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 5:00 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 ports As long as we are talking caulks. The only product that will stick to plexiglass and wood is Life Seal. I tried absolutely everything and it is the only thing that worked. If you get it at West Marine, check the expire date, it might be in the past. Allen On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:47 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: My rub with Sika products goes back to the old days on my Cal 9.2. We bedded the lights with Sika products. The material came off and marked gear and stained decks, getting more chalky and soft cracking as it aged. Still a fan, I have re-bedded the same lights in 2005 with Sika 295UV three part and that material has performed well, with only one spot "rotting out", the material softens, and then chalks and then boogers out. I chose this material as it was the only adhesive that I located that was recommended for gluing Acrylics (lights). [?ui=2&ik=e766710ab7&view=att&th=12f755164ef293fd&attid=0.1&disp=emb&zw][?ui=2&ik=e766710ab7&view=att&th=12f755164ef293fd&attid=0.2&disp=emb&zw][?ui=2&ik=e766710ab7&view=att&th=12f755164ef293fd&attid=0.3&disp=emb&zw] I'm sure the product has improved. With the 4000, 4200, and 5200 products, I have not yet had a problem... so I stick with what has worked so far. They were not recommended for this task. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:17 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 ports I know of no reason to use 5200. Personally, I only use Sikaflex 291 LOT Allen On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: When I took my 7 ports out, just used a number of thin putty knives and drove them in radially, I was then able use my Multimaster to "burn/cut" out the sealant. Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. I have never used it - so cannot comment. Heat guns also soften the material so it can be pealed - penetrated - debonded. The factory says if you smell burning 5200 you can die. I guess if you stick a screw driver in your eye you can go blind also. Gotta die of something - whatever! I've never had a problem getting 5200 off... as in the past that is all I used. Now I like the elasticity of other products. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:23 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". I do recall a few purported solvents, however. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746<tel:877-366-2746> > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

If I had known about that when I did my windows I would have used it (assuming it was around). The deal with Lifeseal is that it is part silicon and that part sticks to the window, the other part sticks to the wood. This stuff looks better but then again, my windows have been in for several yeas and show no sign of leaking so I can't complain. Allen On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:12 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > I order the important sealers from Jamestown Distributors, like the 295UV, > primer and cleaner. > > Always fresh. > > > > They also have glass bi-axial tape that I like for re-tabbing. > > [image: Fiberglass Biaxial Cloth Tape - 6 inches Wide] > > > > If you don’t work with them you might have some success… I think they > specialize in wooden boat supplies. > > > > The Sika 295 UV 3 part system makes a claim to glue your windows to wood. > > > · Sikaflex®-295 UV > > Sikaflex-295 UV is a fast curing, one-component, flexible, high performance > polyurethane-based adhesive for bonding and sealing of windows and > portholes. > > *Close Details*<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> > > *Use* > > Sikaflex-295 UV is suitable for all types of organic (PC, PMMA) > windowpanes. Its high degree of UV resistance also allows the use of the > system as a weatherproof sealant. > > *Characteristics and Advantages* > > - UV resistant, no cracking or chalking > - Salt water resistant > - Fast tack-free time > - Paintable and sandable > - Stable > - Bonds and seals in one step > - Initial load bearing capacity > - High thixotropy/good gap filling properties > - Non-yellowing > - Non-chalking > > *Color* > > Black, White > > *Packaging* > > 300 ml cartridge > Product Data Sheet > > *Sikaflex-295 UV* <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=987> > Material Safety Data Sheet > > *Sikaflex-295 UV* <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=890> > Other Documents > > *Sikaflex-295 UV (Certificate)*<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1256> > > [image: Sikaflex®-295 UV] > · SikaSil® SG-20 > > SikaSil SG-20 is a neutral curing silicone adhesive which combines > mechanical strength with high elongation. It has excellent adhesion to a > wide range of substrates. > > *Close Details*<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> > > *Use* > > SikaSil SG-20 can be used for structural sealant glazing or as a > residential window backbedding/glazing adhesive, or for bonding solar > modules and other high-demanding industrial applications. Tests with > original substrates and conditions must be performed to ensure adhesion and > material compatibility. > > *Characteristics and Advantages* > > - Excellent bond to glass, metals, coated metals, plastics and wood > - Outstanding UV and weathering resistance > - Fire rated (EN 11925-2/DIN 4102-B1) > - Neutral cure > - Meets requirements of ASTM C1184 > > *Color* > > Black/White > > *Packaging* > > Component A 260 kg drum, Component B 20 kg pail > Product Data Sheet > > *SikaSil SG-20* <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1252> > Material Safety Data Sheet > > *SikaSil SG-20* <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=930> > · Sika® Aktivator > > Sika Aktivator is a moisture sensitive liquid for the pre-treatment of > surfaces to improve adhesion of Sikaflex adhesives. > > *Close Details*<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> > > *Use* > > Sika Aktivator improves adhesion of Sikaflex adhesives on glass and ceramic > coated windshield glass. > > *Characteristics and Advantages* > > - One component > - Fast drying > > *Color* > > Transparent, Clear > > *Packaging* > > 250 ml and 1000 ml can, 1.1 ml single use pads > Product Data Sheet > > *Sika Aktivator* <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1048> > Material Safety Data Sheet > > *Sika Aktivator * <http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=912> > Other Documents > > *Sika Aktivator (Certificate)*<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1260> > > [image: Sika® Aktivator] > · Sika® Primer-206 G+P > > Sika Primer-206 G+P is a black, moisture-curing liquid primer specifically > formulated for the treatment of bond faces in direct glazing work prior to > application of Sika polyurethane direct glazing adhesives and to improve > adhesion of other Sika products. > > *Close Details*<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006/01a006sa01/01a006sa01100/01a006sa01103.html> > > *Use* > > Sika Primer-206 G+P is used to touch-up pinchweld scratches, and also act > as a corrosion inhibitor on metals. May also be used when a frit band is not > available on the perimeter of the glass part to provide partial UV > protection to the polyurethane. It is also used as a general purpose primer > which is used to promote adhesion to: glass, FRP, ABS, plastics, aluminum, > steel and paints. > > *Characteristics and Advantages* > > - One component > - Fast drying > - Wide temperature range > > *Color* > > Black > > *Packaging* > > 100 ml, 250 ml, 1.4 ml single use stix > Product Data Sheet > > *Sika Primer-206 G+P*<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1009> > Material Safety Data Sheet > > *Sika Primer-206 G+P *<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=918> > Other Documents > > *Sika Primer-206 G+P (Certificate)*<http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=1259> > > [image: Sika® Primer-206 G+P][image: Sika® Primer-206 G+P] > > · Print > > · Imprint <http://usa.sika.com/en/footer/imprint.html> > > · Legal Notice <http://usa.sika.com/en/footer/legal_notice.html> > > · © Copyright 2011 Sika Group > > · > > *Quick Navigation* > > Sika Corporation U.S. <http://usa.sika.com/en/group.html> > > · *About us* <http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Aboutus.html> > > · *Career* <http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Career.html> > > · *Sustainability*<http://usa.sika.com/en/group/sustainability1.html> > > · *News* <http://usa.sika.com/en/group/News.html> > > · *Events* <http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Events.html> > > · *Networks* <http://usa.sika.com/en/group/Links.html> > > Products & Solutions <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products.html> > > - *Construction <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02.html> * > - Concrete Admixture Technology<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a001.html> > - Concrete Repair and Protection<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a002.html> > - Crack Repair & Injection Resins<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a007.html> > - Epoxy Resin & Structural Engineering Systems<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a013.html> > - Grouting & Quickset Mortars<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a005.html> > - Joint Sealing & Adhesive Systems<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a008.html> > - Waterproofing<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a015.html> > - Roofing <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a011.html> > - Industrial Flooring<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a004.html> > - DIY/Home Centers<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a024.html> > - Wood Floor Bonding<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/02a023.html> > - Training Academy<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/const_training.html> > - *Industry <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01.html> * > - Appliance and Components<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a000.html> > - Aftermarket (AGR)<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a001.html> > - Automotive OEM<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/automotive_oem.html> > - Automotive OES<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/automotive_oes.html> > - Building Components<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a004.html> > - Transportation<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a005.html> > - Marine <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a006.html> > - Renewable Energies<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/01/01a007.html> > - *Automotive<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/Automotiveredirect.html> > * > - *Roofing<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/redirect_roofing.html> > * > - *DIY / Home Centers<http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/merchants_diy.html> > * > - *News <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/News.html>* > - * * > - *Download <http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/download.html>* > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 5:00 PM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 ports > > > > > > As long as we are talking caulks. The only product that will stick to > plexiglass and wood is Life Seal. I tried absolutely everything and it is > the only thing that worked. If you get it at West Marine, check the expire > date, it might be in the past. > > > > Allen > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:47 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > > My rub with Sika products goes back to the old days on my Cal 9.2. > > > > We bedded the lights with Sika products. > > > > The material came off and marked gear and stained decks, getting more > chalky and soft cracking as it aged. > > > > Still a fan, > > I have re-bedded the same lights in 2005 with Sika 295UV three part and > that material has performed well, with only one spot “rotting out”, the > material softens, and then chalks and then boogers out. > > I chose this material as it was the only adhesive that I located that was > recommended for gluing Acrylics (lights). > > > > > > I’m sure the product has improved. > > > > With the 4000, 4200, and 5200 products, I have not yet had a problem… so I > stick with what has worked so far. > > They were not recommended for this task. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:17 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 ports > > > > > > I know of no reason to use 5200. Personally, I only use *Sikaflex* 291 * > LOT* > > > > *Allen* > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > > When I took my 7 ports out, just used a number of thin putty knives and > drove them in radially, I was then able use my Multimaster to “burn/cut” out > the sealant. > > > > Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims > to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. > > > > I have never used it – so cannot comment. > > > > Heat guns also soften the material so it can be pealed – penetrated – > debonded. > > > > The factory says if you smell burning 5200 you can die. > > > > I guess if you stick a screw driver in your eye you can go blind also. > > > > Gotta die of something – whatever! > > > > I’ve never had a problem getting 5200 off… as in the past that is all I > used. > > > > Now I like the elasticity of other products. > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:23 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *r good > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:16 PM > *To:* ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > I asked 3M about 5200. > > > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from > a > > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > > > > Dear Reggie, > > > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > > > UNCURED > > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > > > CURED > > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use > a > > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is > important > > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, > easier > > to remove. > > > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > > > Regards, > > > > Clauzel > > 3M Marine Trades > > 877-366-2746 > > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us > > > > > > > > >

Reggie, I had occasion to talk at length to an old hand at this recently and he swears by ether for softening up 5200 - not tried it myself but if you can find it it may be worth a try. G On 20/04/2011 18:15, r good wrote: > > > I asked 3M about 5200. > > > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights > from a > > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > > > > Dear Reggie, > > > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > > > UNCURED > > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > > > CURED > > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. > Use a > > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is > important > > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, > easier > > to remove. > > > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > > > Regards, > > > > Clauzel > > 3M Marine Trades > > 877-366-2746 > > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us > > > >

I have used heat from a propane torch if the area is small and can be heated thoroughly easily. Otherwise a plastic shaped charge! Good luck, My Best, Mike Farrell From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 6:15:41 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Reggie, I had occasion to talk at length to an old hand at this recently and he swears by ether for softening up 5200 - not tried it myself but if you can find it it may be worth a try. G On 20/04/2011 18:15, r good wrote: > >I asked 3M about 5200. > >> Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a >> fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or >> soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? >> > >> Dear Reggie, >> >> Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. >> >> If the adhesive sealant is: >> >> UNCURED >> Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number >> #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will >> inhibit the cure of the sealant. >> >> CURED >> Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a >> knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. >> >> Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors >> given off and possible damage to the substrate. >> >> The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important >> in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine >> Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 >> performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier >> to remove. >> >> Please contact us with any further questions. >> >> Regards, >> >> Clauzel >> 3M Marine Trades >> 877-366-2746 >> Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >> > >

Is it fair to say this topic is putting me to sleep? I just can't help it. Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Grae Morrison Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:16 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: r good Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Reggie, I had occasion to talk at length to an old hand at this recently and he swears by ether for softening up 5200 - not tried it myself but if you can find it it may be worth a try. G On 20/04/2011 18:15, r good wrote: I asked 3M about 5200. > Message = I have to remove several cast aluminum opening portlights from a > fiberglass hull. They were bedded with 3M 5200. Does anyting disolve or > soften the 5200? What is the best method for removing the ports? > > Dear Reggie, > > Thank you for contacting 3M Marine. > > If the adhesive sealant is: > > UNCURED > Clean surfaces with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner (part number > #08984) or acetone. DO NOT use alcohol-containing solvents, which will > inhibit the cure of the sealant. > > CURED > Polyurethane adhesive sealant must be removed mechanically if cured. Use a > knife, razor blade, piano wire, putty knife or sandpaper. > > Heating to remove 5200 and 4200 is not recommended because of the vapors > given off and possible damage to the substrate. > > The 5200 is meant for permanent applications. If removability is important > in your application and you still need adhesive qualities use 3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4200. 3M(TM) Marine Adhesive/Sealant 4200 > performs the same as 5200 with half the strength of 5200, therefore, easier > to remove. > > Please contact us with any further questions. > > Regards, > > Clauzel > 3M Marine Trades > 877-366-2746 > Subject = [P] Marine Contact Us >

On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell >

On 4/20/2011 6:43 PM, ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > > Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which > claims to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. > > I have never used it – so cannot comment. > I have and I can. Others report that it worked under hardware pieces. I tried to use it for larger surfaces and it had no effect whatsoever on the bond. Chris Campbell > >

I think it was Timm who famously said it is nothing a grinder, hammer, heat gun, and chisel can't easily remove. I favor a sharpened putty knife and a hammer. Get a putty knife that takes the blade all the way to the end of the handle and sharpen the end on a grinder. Make sure the handle can take some good pounding without shattering. Pound it through the 5200 all around the joint. And don't use 5200 next time. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 4/20/2011 6:43 PM, ti… [at] ch2m.com wrote: > > > > > > > Anti-bond is available at West Marine and other chandleries, which claims > to dissolve 5200 among other adhesives. > > > > I have never used it – so cannot comment. > > > I have and I can. Others report that it worked under hardware pieces. I > tried to use it for larger surfaces and it had no effect whatsoever on the > bond. > > Chris Campbell > > > > >

If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. > > > I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is > "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface > area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large > and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you > do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent > applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use > 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. > > One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also > unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a > bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out > of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took > some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and > bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not > want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated > was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person > would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, > and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or > maybe to replace them if damaged. > > If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If > the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it > properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come > off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in > place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck > hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced > within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent > application." > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > >

On 4/21/2011 12:01 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it > might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there > is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? > Well, I'm not, but the true fanatic racers have figured out that Jensen was not excessively fastidious about aligning the keel originally. Some are rotated to one side or the other, affecting performance on different tacks. If I had more time than I can occupy and more money than I need, maybe I'd worry about this. In that event, I might use 5200 because it's tenacious and would be likely to adhere as a bedding material even if the keel; bolts yielded slightly and allowed the keel flange to move a bit. My calculation is that there's no reasonable likelihood of needing to remove the keel again for the life of the boat. Chris Campbell

Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > >>Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >>I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell >

On 4/22/2011 4:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: > Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a > call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat > just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an > 18" stub was all that was left. > I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. From what I have read, the iron keel castings are all a bit imperfect, with little voids of slag or something. Mine is that way--there are places where it's slightly cratered and these points tend to rust. I've been gradually chipping away at those with a hammer and punch or pick, and then priming carefully. It's possible that the broken keel was from an especially poorly cast one, and perhaps the voids allowed electrolysis to attack it more actively but invisibly. The problem areas are more visible to those of us whose boats are out of the water half of every year. Maybe more than half this year--we just had a record late-April snowfall, and it has been cold and wet so far. As a result, I've not been out to work on my boat, although I've varnished my hatch board and the rudder already. The hull needs to be waxed and the keel needs its annual rust spot repairs. Luckily, there's not much else that must be done before launch. Chris Campbell >

You might want to check for stray current instead of stray voltage. I would suggest doing a test I did on Papoose a few weeks ago. Take the meter and hook a wire to a zinc and to the meter. Hang that over the side so the zinc is in the water. Connect the other lead of the meter to the ground on your boat. Set the meter to its most sensitive setting. If you have any shore power connection you should not see any difference when it is disconnected if you are properly isolated. I would think it would take a connection to shore ground to do significant damage to your boat although other mechanisms are possible as I describe in the write up I did on my web site. Now a Cal20 is not a large boat and has an outboard so for all I know there isn't even a battery on the thing and you might not have a battery charger to connect to the shore so this might be useless information, but just in case it might help I pass it on. The reason I say stray current is that measuring voltage differences really is only telling you the type of metals you are connected to. It is the current and the ion migration that is associated with that current that is going to damage your boat. The article is on bonding.http://l-36.com/bonding2.php It explains a lot of mechanisms that can cause electrolysis, which is what you are concerned with. Allen On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 1:52 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call > from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day > before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all > that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now > that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel > was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel > that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, > 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into > a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the > hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all > there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, > stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in > Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other > cause. > My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa > Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might > need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no > reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? > > And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my > ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint > between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up > and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was > carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have > thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. > > Allen > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org>wrote: > >> >> >> On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: >> >> >> >> Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >> I do recall a few purported solvents, however. >> >> >> I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is >> "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface >> area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large >> and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you >> do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent >> applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use >> 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. >> >> One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also >> unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a >> bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out >> of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took >> some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and >> bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not >> want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated >> was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person >> would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, >> and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or >> maybe to replace them if damaged. >> >> If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. >> If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it >> properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come >> off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in >> place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck >> hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced >> within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent >> application." >> >> Chris Campbell >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >

Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run that deep, but ???? Crazy Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell > >

Hi Everyone, The Cal 20 keel has a flat flange on top that's about six inches wide and it's through the outer edges of the flange that the screw bolts are inserted from below, through the hull and up into the interior of the Cal, where the washers and nuts are attached. The thickness of the actual keel is about one inch which then flares into the torpedo bulb. Chris B From: David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:24:28 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run that deep, but ???? Crazy Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > >> >> >>Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >>I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell >

YouTube movie about the project I am on. Sailing Content, I'm trying to keep stuff from getting into the Columbia River... my house and boat are 200miles downstream of my work location. Other videos are at the YouTube site, of us blowing up structures. www.youtube.com/hanfordsite<http://www.youtube.com/hanfordsite> it is long, about 17 minutes - but maybe interesting to some. dEmO -lition

I thought Atomic City was where the Atomic 4's came from. BTW how DID the Atomic 4 get it's name? Because 'WWII surplus universal motor launch engine' wasn't sexy enough? Jerry --- On Fri, 4/22/11, ti… [at] ch2m.com <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: From: ti… [at] ch2m.com <ti… [at] ch2m.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Atomic City update To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 9:56 AM YouTube movie about the project I am on. Sailing Content, I’m trying to keep stuff from getting into the Columbia River… my house and boat are 200miles downstream of my work location. Other videos are at the YouTube site, of us blowing up structures. www.youtube.com/hanfordsite it is long, about 17 minutes – but maybe interesting to some. dEmO-lition

Ya know, this is probably a case of electrolysis as they claim there was an 18" stub. Think Mike is correct on this one. If it was treated and prep'd last year, then there is no other possible way to chew threw 1" of cast iron/steel , which is very much subject to electrolytic action as its a very soft metal. On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > Hi Everyone, > > The Cal 20 keel has a flat flange on top that's about six inches wide and > it's >

Curiosity... If they sailed the boat the day before, there are two obvious possibilities: 1. They sailed the boat without the keel (not highly likely). 2. The keel fell off at a dock or mooring after the sail, and thus might be findable (but not cheaply) and could be recovered for forensic examination. If I had a CAL 20, it would make me a bit squeamish. I know that CAL 25s are subject to the keel wobble syndrome, but I have never heard of a case of a CAL 25 keel actually coming off. I sleep better considering that fact. Yes, I know, there may be a bunch of less obvious possibilities, e.g., the yard people screwed up and knocked the keel off - then developed a cover story. Would a CAL 20 even sit upright in the water with the keel removed? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris123 Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:48 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 Keel Bolts Ya know, this is probably a case of electrolysis as they claim there was an 18" stub. Think Mike is correct on this one. If it was treated and prep'd last year, then there is no other possible way to chew threw 1" of cast iron/steel , which is very much subject to electrolytic action as its a very soft metal. On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:we… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Hi Everyone, The Cal 20 keel has a flat flange on top that's about six inches wide and it's

I'd be looking for a whale with a big knot on his head and a necklace made of cast iron. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 Keel Bolts Curiosity... If they sailed the boat the day before, there are two obvious possibilities: 1. They sailed the boat without the keel (not highly likely). 2. The keel fell off at a dock or mooring after the sail, and thus might be findable (but not cheaply) and could be recovered for forensic examination. If I had a CAL 20, it would make me a bit squeamish. I know that CAL 25s are subject to the keel wobble syndrome, but I have never heard of a case of a CAL 25 keel actually coming off. I sleep better considering that fact. Yes, I know, there may be a bunch of less obvious possibilities, e.g., the yard people screwed up and knocked the keel off - then developed a cover story. Would a CAL 20 even sit upright in the water with the keel removed? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris123 Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:48 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 Keel Bolts Ya know, this is probably a case of electrolysis as they claim there was an 18" stub. Think Mike is correct on this one. If it was treated and prep'd last year, then there is no other possible way to chew threw 1" of cast iron/steel , which is very much subject to electrolytic action as its a very soft metal. On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:we… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Hi Everyone, The Cal 20 keel has a flat flange on top that's about six inches wide and it's

Too funny. Either that or a very unhappy killer whale with a bad case of tooth decay and heart burn..:) /ch On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:29 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > I’d be looking for a whale with a big knot on his head and a necklace made > of cast iron. >

Wow...what an awesome job...complex as heck and challenging. Used to work for Monenco before they imploded as an environmental management consultant so have some understanding of what your up too. You must be having a blast putting this one together and putting it to bed. Best of luck. Who's the prime on this one? /ch

For Now, we are the Prime. A CH2MHILL spin off.. called CHPRC - the PRC stands for Plateau Remediation Company. At this time we are ahead of schedule and within our funding limits... a competing contractor up the street at the vitrification plant is billions over budget and 19 years behind schedule. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris123 Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:10 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Atomic City update Wow...what an awesome job...complex as heck and challenging. Used to work for Monenco before they imploded as an environmental management consultant so have some understanding of what your up too. You must be having a blast putting this one together and putting it to bed. Best of luck. Who's the prime on this one? /ch

Good stuff and I'm sure there is an incentive to finish. Did a few minutes research on this project and its pretty formidable.From reading this it sounds like the lads from B company are dealing with that later issue..:) http://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/HanfordContractors I'm sure there are going to be a lot of stories when this one is over, and more so, some very memorable characters. Enjoy, biggies like this are few and far in between. /ch

If it was due to electrolysis, it had to be bonded to something. You cannot get electrolysis damage unless the thing is bonded. Electrolysis is the exchange of electrons and ions between different electrodes. There is an exception, if you have a huge current in the marina and the keel is long enough and intercepts some of that field, you could get some current flow in the keel itself and it could become part of the ion-electron exchange. But an isolated piece of metal cannot get electrolysis. It can get corrosion (rust) just sitting there though. It can also get fatigue failure but unlikely given the circumstances in that it did not fall off while sailing. I would love to know what caused this if it is ever found out. Allen In case you have not read my article, the summary is that if you bond the metal in your boat you are 1) Subjecting it to electrolysis damage and 2) Protecting the crew from getting electrocuted in the case of a fault in the 120V system. Pick your poison. On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:47 AM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Ya know, this is probably a case of electrolysis as they claim there was an > 18" stub. Think Mike is correct on this one. If it was treated and prep'd > last year, then there is no other possible way to chew threw 1" of cast > iron/steel , which is very much subject to electrolytic action as its a very > soft metal. > > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> The Cal 20 keel has a flat flange on top that's about six inches wide and >> it's >> > >

Hi Wilkie, The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from outside the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long and there are 8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel plate about 18" from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when it is I will try to get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. My Best, Mike Farrell From: David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run that deep, but ???? Crazy Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > >> >> >>Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >>I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell >

As strange as it seems, I believe the keel fell off in the slip. No foul play involved. I went to see the boat yesterday and when you step on the side deck it is apparent that something is missing--- my 180# will heel the boat to 20+ degrees in a quick motion. My Best, Mike From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:59:14 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 Keel Bolts Curiosity... If they sailed the boat the day before, there are two obvious possibilities: 1. They sailed the boat without the keel (not highly likely). 2. The keel fell off at a dock or mooring after the sail, and thus might be findable (but not cheaply) and could be recovered for forensic examination. If I had a CAL 20, it would make me a bit squeamish. I know that CAL 25s are subject to the keel wobble syndrome, but I have never heard of a case of a CAL 25 keel actually coming off. I sleep better considering that fact. Yes, I know, there may be a bunch of less obvious possibilities, e.g., the yard people screwed up and knocked the keel off - then developed a cover story. Would a CAL 20 even sit upright in the water with the keel removed? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris123 Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:48 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 Keel Bolts Ya know, this is probably a case of electrolysis as they claim there was an 18" stub. Think Mike is correct on this one. If it was treated and prep'd last year, then there is no other possible way to chew threw 1" of cast iron/steel , which is very much subject to electrolytic action as its a very soft metal. On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Chris Barszcz <we… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >Hi Everyone, > >The Cal 20 keel has a flat flange on top that's about six inches wide and it's >

Thanks Mike, I would find that very interesting. I don't know anything about iron keels, but suspect it would be cast into a mold. If so, maybe the pour was interrupted or something else caused a fault that the electrolysis could attack. That and long use??? Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over for me. Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:34 PM, mike farrell wrote: Hi Wilkie, The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from outside the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long and there are 8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel plate about 18" from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when it is I will try to get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. My Best, Mike Farrell From: David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run that deep, but ???? Crazy Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell > >

I have an Olympic V 22 With the similar kind of keel. It has a ¾ inch plate that bolts through the bottom of the hull with flat head bolts. The fin foil section is welded up of two bent plates. It is hollow. The steel ballast bulb on the bottom is welded on. The plate the fin is fabricated of is not very thick. This is probably a cheaper keel to make than a casting. If your keel is this type and stray current is present then it is very possible for it to be eaten of by electrolysis in a short period of time. Dan R From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Wilkie Owen Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:20 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 . Thanks Mike, I would find that very interesting. I don't know anything about iron keels, but suspect it would be cast into a mold. If so, maybe the pour was interrupted or something else caused a fault that the electrolysis could attack. That and long use??? Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over for me. Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:34 PM, mike farrell wrote: Hi Wilkie, The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from outside the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long and there are 8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel plate about 18" from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when it is I will try to get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. My Best, Mike Farrell _____ From: David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run that deep, but ???? Crazy Wilkie On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other cause. My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 _____ From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. Allen On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3592 - Release Date: 04/22/11 23:36:00

I hesitate to repeat myself but there are only two ways that this could be an electrolysis problem. 1) The keel is bonded to something that is then connected to shore power ground. 2) The keel is isolated but in a huge external ionic current and serves as a shorter path for the stray current than the surrounding sea water. This would be caused by the boat on one side having a fault that puts 12v on its underwater surfaces and having that current terminated by a boat on the other side. I would think the latter extremely unlikely as many the boats in the marina would be having terrible problems. But that said, having the keel fall off at all after having been sailed seems very strange. Any weakness should have caused a failure when sailing and the fact it survived the sailing should have meant it would survive sitting there for quite some time. I would very much like to know what is found out about what happened. Allen On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Daniel Richmond <dv… [at] frontier.com>wrote: > > > I have an Olympic V 22 With the similar kind of keel. It has a ¾ inch plate > that bolts through the bottom of the hull with flat head bolts. The fin foil > section is welded up of two bent plates. It is hollow. The steel ballast > bulb on the bottom is welded on. The plate the fin is fabricated of is not > very thick. This is probably a cheaper keel to make than a casting. If your > keel is this type and stray current is present then it is very possible for > it to be eaten of by electrolysis in a short period of time. > > Dan R > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *David Wilkie Owen > *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:20 AM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > . > > > > > > Thanks Mike, > > > > I would find that very interesting. I don't know anything about iron > keels, but suspect it would be cast into a mold. If so, maybe the pour was > interrupted or something else caused a fault that the electrolysis could > attack. That and long use??? > > > > Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over for > me. > > > > Wilkie > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:34 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Wilkie, > > The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from > outside the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long > and there are 8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel > plate about 18" from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when > it is I will try to get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. > > My Best, Mike Farrell > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > > > > Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it > broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they > run that deep, but ???? > > > > Crazy > > > > Wilkie > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: > > > > > > > > Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call > from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day > before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all > that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now > that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel > was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel > that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, > 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into > a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the > hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all > there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, > stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in > Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other > cause. > > My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa > Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might > need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no > reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? > > > > And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my > ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint > between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up > and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was > carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have > thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. > > > > Allen > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > wrote: > > > > On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > > > > > > Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". > > > > I do recall a few purported solvents, however. > > > I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is > "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface > area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large > and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you > do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent > applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use > 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. > > One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also > unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a > bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out > of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took > some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and > bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not > want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated > was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person > would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, > and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or > maybe to replace them if damaged. > > If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If > the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it > properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come > off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in > place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck > hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced > within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent > application." > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3592 - Release Date: 04/22/11 > 23:36:00 > > >

From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 11:29:38 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I hesitate to repeat myself but there are only two ways that this could be an electrolysis problem. 1) The keel is bonded to something that is then connected to shore power ground. 2) The keel is isolated but in a huge external ionic current and serves as a shorter path for the stray current than the surrounding sea water. This would be caused by the boat on one side having a fault that puts 12v on its underwater surfaces and having that current terminated by a boat on the other side. I would think the latter extremely unlikely as many the boats in the marina would be having terrible problems. But that said, having the keel fall off at all after having been sailed seems very strange. Any weakness should have caused a failure when sailing and the fact it survived the sailing should have meant it would survive sitting there for quite some time. I would very much like to know what is found out about what happened. Allen On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Daniel Richmond <dv… [at] frontier.com> wrote: >I have an Olympic V 22 With the similar kind of keel. It has a ¾ inch plate that >bolts through the bottom of the hull with flat head bolts. The fin foil section >is welded up of two bent plates. It is hollow. The steel ballast bulb on the >bottom is welded on. The plate the fin is fabricated of is not very thick. This >is probably a cheaper keel to make than a casting. If your keel is this type >and stray current is present then it is very possible for it to be eaten of by >electrolysis in a short period of time. >Dan R > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of >David Wilkie Owen >Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:20 AM > >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > >. > > >Thanks Mike, > >I would find that very interesting. I don't know anything about iron keels, but >suspect it would be cast into a mold. If so, maybe the pour was interrupted or >something else caused a fault that the electrolysis could attack. That and long >use??? > >Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over for me. > >Wilkie > > >On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:34 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > > >Hi Wilkie, > The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from outside >the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long and there are >8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel plate about 18" >from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when it is I will try to >get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > >From:David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > >Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it >broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run >that deep, but ???? > > >Crazy > >Wilkie > > >On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: > > > > Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her >diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A >friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. >Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the >yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean >metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this >manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. >Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not >the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that >stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth >and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in >Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss >from any other cause. > My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz >27 Yellow Jack #57313 > > >From:Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > >If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need >to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to >remove and replace it, why are you doing it? > > >And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my >ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between >the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it >down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put >back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing >that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. > >Allen >On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > >On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > >> >>Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >>I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3592 - Release Date: 04/22/11 >23:36:00

I appreciate what you say and it seems likely that other boats in the area would also have severe problems if there was sufficient stray voltage present enough to cause such a deterioration. It also seems that the keel should have become separated on the sail the day before. I believe that there will be evidence of what caused the separation when the boat is hauled. These conditions come to mind--- A severe thinning from corrosion with changes in the metal structure which caused it to diminish it's integrity. Marks of an obvious collision with a hard object such as a rock . Evidence of a casting defect. I have seen Cal 20 keels with severe soft spots that seemed to be filled with decomposed iron the consistency of plumbers putty that was the gray black color of graphite and could be gouged out with a wood chisel. I used a 1/2" drill to get to clean metal and then filled the holes with splash zone 2 part epoxy. Some of the holes in the keel bulb were nearly an inch deep and there were 10 or more to be cleaned and filled. This Cal 20 had been unhauled for 9 years with no attention or bottom cleaning. I believe it sat in the bottom mud at low low tide. The keel was faired with resin which had been water penetrated in the keel plate area and needed drastic repair. On another Cal 20 I filled a similarly sized hole at the rear of the keel flange the same way. 2 years later there was no change or further deterioration It is most interesting to me that this boat's keel had been treated about a year before this incident. More to follow. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 11:29:38 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 I hesitate to repeat myself but there are only two ways that this could be an electrolysis problem. 1) The keel is bonded to something that is then connected to shore power ground. 2) The keel is isolated but in a huge external ionic current and serves as a shorter path for the stray current than the surrounding sea water. This would be caused by the boat on one side having a fault that puts 12v on its underwater surfaces and having that current terminated by a boat on the other side. I would think the latter extremely unlikely as many the boats in the marina would be having terrible problems. But that said, having the keel fall off at all after having been sailed seems very strange. Any weakness should have caused a failure when sailing and the fact it survived the sailing should have meant it would survive sitting there for quite some time. I would very much like to know what is found out about what happened. Allen On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Daniel Richmond <dv… [at] frontier.com> wrote: >I have an Olympic V 22 With the similar kind of keel. It has a ¾ inch plate that >bolts through the bottom of the hull with flat head bolts. The fin foil section >is welded up of two bent plates. It is hollow. The steel ballast bulb on the >bottom is welded on. The plate the fin is fabricated of is not very thick. This >is probably a cheaper keel to make than a casting. If your keel is this type >and stray current is present then it is very possible for it to be eaten of by >electrolysis in a short period of time. >Dan R > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of >David Wilkie Owen >Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:20 AM > >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > >. > > >Thanks Mike, > >I would find that very interesting. I don't know anything about iron keels, but >suspect it would be cast into a mold. If so, maybe the pour was interrupted or >something else caused a fault that the electrolysis could attack. That and long >use??? > >Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over for me. > >Wilkie > > >On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:34 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > > >Hi Wilkie, > The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from outside >the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long and there are >8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel plate about 18" >from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when it is I will try to >get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. > My Best, Mike Farrell > > >From:David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > > > >Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is it >broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that they run >that deep, but ???? > > >Crazy > >Wilkie > > >On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: > > > > Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call from her >diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day before. A >friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all that was left. >Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now that keel is in the >yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel was taken down to clean >metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel that had fractured in this >manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, 4200 would be a better choice. >Also I had believed that the keel went into a recess in the hull but that is not >the case it bolts directly onto the hull. The part of the keel flange that >stands away from the hull is all there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth >and check for floating, stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in >Clipper Harbor #1 in Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss >from any other cause. > My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 Santa Cruz >27 Yellow Jack #57313 > > >From:Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > >If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it might need >to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no reason to >remove and replace it, why are you doing it? > > >And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my >ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint between >the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up and set it >down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was carefully put >back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have thought of doing >that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. > >Allen >On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > >On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: > >> >>Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >>I do recall a few purported solvents, however. I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or maybe to replace them if damaged. If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent application." Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3592 - Release Date: 04/22/11 >23:36:00

My 5 cents is on that it rusted through, not electrolysis. (not a big better). btw, how did that last 5 cents I put on something turn out? Allen On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 3:57 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > [Attachment(s) <#12f849786aeb7e23_TopText> from mike farrell included > below] > > I appreciate what you say and it seems likely that other boats in the > area would also have severe problems if there was sufficient stray voltage > present enough to cause such a deterioration. It also seems that the keel > should have become separated on the sail the day before. I believe that > there will be evidence of what caused the separation when the boat is > hauled. These conditions come to mind--- A severe thinning from corrosion > with changes in the metal structure which caused it to diminish it's > integrity. Marks of an obvious collision with a hard object such as a rock > . Evidence of a casting defect. > I have seen Cal 20 keels with severe soft spots that seemed to be > filled with decomposed iron the consistency of plumbers putty that was the > gray black color of graphite and could be gouged out with a wood chisel. I > used a 1/2" drill to get to clean metal and then filled the holes with > splash zone 2 part epoxy. Some of the holes in the keel bulb were nearly an > inch deep and there were 10 or more to be cleaned and filled. This Cal 20 > had been unhauled for 9 years with no attention or bottom cleaning. I > believe it sat in the bottom mud at low low tide. The keel was faired with > resin which had been water penetrated in the keel plate area and needed > drastic repair. On another Cal 20 I filled a similarly sized hole at the > rear of the keel flange the same way. 2 years later there was no change or > further deterioration > It is most interesting to me that this boat's keel had been treated > about a year before this incident. More to follow. > My Best, Mike > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Sat, April 23, 2011 11:29:38 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 > > > > I hesitate to repeat myself but there are only two ways that this could be > an electrolysis problem. 1) The keel is bonded to something that is then > connected to shore power ground. 2) The keel is isolated but in a huge > external ionic current and serves as a shorter path for the stray current > than the surrounding sea water. This would be caused by the boat on one > side having a fault that puts 12v on its underwater surfaces and having that > current terminated by a boat on the other side. I would think the latter > extremely unlikely as many the boats in the marina would be having terrible > problems. > > But that said, having the keel fall off at all after having been sailed > seems very strange. Any weakness should have caused a failure when sailing > and the fact it survived the sailing should have meant it would survive > sitting there for quite some time. > > I would very much like to know what is found out about what happened. > > Allen > > On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Daniel Richmond <dv… [at] frontier.com>wrote: > >> >> >> I have an Olympic V 22 With the similar kind of keel. It has a ¾ inch >> plate that bolts through the bottom of the hull with flat head bolts. The >> fin foil section is welded up of two bent plates. It is hollow. The steel >> ballast bulb on the bottom is welded on. The plate the fin is fabricated of >> is not very thick. This is probably a cheaper keel to make than a casting. >> If your keel is this type and stray current is present then it is very >> possible for it to be eaten of by electrolysis in a short period of time. >> >> Dan R >> >> >> >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *David Wilkie Owen >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:20 AM >> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 >> >> >> >> >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks Mike, >> >> >> >> I would find that very interesting. I don't know anything about iron >> keels, but suspect it would be cast into a mold. If so, maybe the pour was >> interrupted or something else caused a fault that the electrolysis could >> attack. That and long use??? >> >> >> >> Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over >> for me. >> >> >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:34 PM, mike farrell wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Wilkie, >> >> The keel bolts are flathead machine screws that insert from >> outside the hull and are nutted in the bilge they are about 2 inches long >> and there are 8 of them. The keel bolts were not an issue, it was the keel >> plate about 18" from the joint. The boat has not been hauled yet and when >> it is I will try to get pix before and after the keel stub is removed. >> >> My Best, Mike Farrell >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* David Wilkie Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Fri, April 22, 2011 8:24:28 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amazing! I am wondering how deep the keel bolts run into the stub. Is >> it broken off at or near the end of the bolts? Doesn't seem likely that >> they run that deep, but ???? >> >> >> >> Crazy >> >> >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, mike farrell wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Three weeks ago a San Francisco Bay Cal 20 sailor got a call >> from her diver " Your keel is missing" She had sailed the boat just the day >> before. A friend went under the boat and sure enough an 18" stub was all >> that was left. Another Cal sailor had a keel left from a demolition and now >> that keel is in the yard awaiting installation. A year ago the former keel >> was taken down to clean metal and faired and treated. This is the only keel >> that had fractured in this manner that I know about. I would not use 5200, >> 4200 would be a better choice. Also I had believed that the keel went into >> a recess in the hull but that is not the case it bolts directly onto the >> hull. The part of the keel flange that stands away from the hull is all >> there is. I will take my voltmeter to her berth and check for floating, >> stray voltage there. Some time ago I had nearly .5v in Clipper Harbor #1 in >> Sausalito at times. I cannot account for the keel's loss from any other >> cause. >> >> My Best, Mike Farrell Cal 20 Coyote #61 >> Santa Cruz 27 Yellow Jack #57313 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:24 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 >> >> >> >> If you are removing and replacing your keel, it is reasonable that it >> might need to be removed and replaced a second time. I mean, if there is no >> reason to remove and replace it, why are you doing it? >> >> >> >> And now for something completely different. When they needed to remove my >> ballast, which is 4000 pounds of lead, they just cut through the joint >> between the lead and the keel with a sawzall. They then lifted the boat up >> and set it down next to the keel. When all the work was done, the boat was >> carefully put back on the keel and the bolts inserted. I never would have >> thought of doing that, which is why I hire people for the big jobs. >> >> >> >> Allen >> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 4/20/2011 6:22 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Reggie, that was a long answer for "NO". >> >> >> >> I do recall a few purported solvents, however. >> >> >> I recall a few purported solvents too, and the operative word there is >> "purported." The only effective solvent for joints with a large surface >> area and thin adhesive is brute force, and when the surface area is large >> and the joined materials are strong, the 5200 has more brute force than you >> do. That's why the 3M reply says "The 5200 is meant for permanent >> applications." That's also why responsible boat owners should never use >> 5200 in any application that may, in the future, need to be undone. >> >> One of the reason we use fasteners is that most of them are also >> unfasteners. Screws, bolts, even pop rivets are easily removed. We use a >> bedding material of some kind between the joined parts to keep moisture out >> of the interstices. It's a good system if you work with care. I just took >> some handrails off my other boat for refinishing. They were screwed on and >> bedded with who-knows-what 50 years ago in the Netherlands. They did not >> want to come off readily but when they did, the place where they were seated >> was as pristine as the day they were placed there. A reasonable person >> would have assumed that some day they would come off. They are mahogany, >> and one might want to remove them to refinish, to paint the deckhouse, or >> maybe to replace them if damaged. >> >> If I were removing and replacing my Cal 20's keel, I might choose 5200. >> If the keel were removed and then very carefully replaced, aligning it >> properly, it would be reasonable to assume that it would not need to come >> off again. It's iron, so it's not likely to be damaged. It has been in >> place for 44 years now. But when I fiddle with various pieces of deck >> hardware, it's reasonable to assume that they may be moved or replaced >> within the foreseeable future. That's not as place for a "permanent >> application." >> >> Chris Campbell >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3592 - Release Date: 04/22/11 >> 23:36:00 >> >> > > > >

On 4/22/2011 7:40 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > If it was due to electrolysis, it had to be bonded to something. You > cannot get electrolysis damage unless the thing is bonded. > Electrolysis is the exchange of electrons and ions between different > electrodes. There is an exception, if you have a huge current in the > marina and the keel is long enough and intercepts some of that field, > you could get some current flow in the keel itself and it could become > part of the ion-electron exchange. But an isolated piece of metal > cannot get electrolysis. > Our iron keels are often coated with copper-bearing paint. Doesn't that make a cell? And isn't the iron the loser in the transaction? Chris Campbell

On 4/23/2011 11:19 AM, David Wilkie Owen wrote: > > Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all > over for me. When I got the Cal 20, I made the argument that I owned half of a Cal 40. But then there's the second half of Campbell's Theory, which is that small boats get sailed more, so I think it's possible that I have more fun on the 20. Chris Campbell > >

Every year, when im lovingly sanding toxic dust and mixing awful resin, I wonder what the hell am I doing and I thank GOD I cant afford a bigger boat. Then I forget about that last part until im trying to cover up again in the winter. To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: cc… [at] lsnm.org Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 09:48:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] 3M 5200 On 4/23/2011 11:19 AM, David Wilkie Owen wrote: Always thought I'd own either a Cal 40 or a Cal 20 before it's all over for me. When I got the Cal 20, I made the argument that I owned half of a Cal 40. But then there's the second half of Campbell's Theory, which is that small boats get sailed more, so I think it's possible that I have more fun on the 20. Chris Campbell

On 4/23/2011 6:57 PM, mike farrell wrote: > I have seen Cal 20 keels with severe soft spots that seemed to > be filled with decomposed iron the consistency of plumbers putty that > was the gray black color of graphite and could be gouged out with a > wood chisel. I used a 1/2" drill to get to clean metal and then > filled the holes with splash zone 2 part epoxy. Some of the holes in > the keel bulb were nearly an inch deep and there were 10 or more to be > cleaned and filled. My Cal 20 (#1220 from 1967) has had some much smaller versions of what you observed. I've been chipping out the crud and then priming and filling. Sand blasting on the spots would probably be more effective but chipping away with hammer and sharp objects is free. I wonder if Jensen used multiple foundries to produce keels. That might explain why some have big major defects and others have much smaller ones, like mine. We're having computer problems so I can't access your photos right now. Chris Campbell

Here is more than you ever wanted to know on the subject and more than I knew before your email. https://darchive.mblwhoilibrary.org/bitstream/handle/1912/191/chapter%2022.pdf?sequence=31 Seems that coper oxide is less of a problem compared to free coper. Not sure what is in paints but I found some had coper oxide as the anti fouling ingredient. Primer seems to help as well. They also point out that if the area is covered by the paint, it is protected but a bare spot can get some corrosion. I was not able to draw a conclusion from my reading of the article. Some paints and iron clearly interact but it depends on the paint and it isn't clear how modern bottom paints would perform. So, you raise a possibility of interaction between the paint and the iron that I had not considered. I will point out that this mechanism is not dependent on stray currents, it is self contained on the boat. <https://darchive.mblwhoilibrary.org/bitstream/handle/1912/191/chapter%2022.pdf?sequence=31> Allen On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 4/22/2011 7:40 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > If it was due to electrolysis, it had to be bonded to something. You > cannot get electrolysis damage unless the thing is bonded. Electrolysis is > the exchange of electrons and ions between different electrodes. There is an > exception, if you have a huge current in the marina and the keel is long > enough and intercepts some of that field, you could get some current flow in > the keel itself and it could become part of the ion-electron exchange. But > an isolated piece of metal cannot get electrolysis. > > > Our iron keels are often coated with copper-bearing paint. Doesn't that > make a cell? And isn't the iron the loser in the transaction? > > Chris Campbell > > >

On 4/25/2011 10:21 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > Here is more than you ever wanted to know on the subject and more than > I knew before your email. > > https://darchive.mblwhoilibrary.org/bitstream/handle/1912/191/chapter%2022.pdf?sequence=31 > > Seems that coper oxide is less of a problem compared to free coper. > Not sure what is in paints but I found some had coper oxide as > the anti fouling ingredient. Primer seems to help as well. They also > point out that if the area is covered by the paint, it is protected > but a bare spot can get some corrosion. I'll review the information later, but for the time being, will simply note that my practice is to be diligent about priming to maintain a barrier between dissimilar metals. On my old outboard, I kept the immersed lower unit painted inm antifouling paint--the same stuff as on the boat. Even with priming bare spots, there would always be some corrosion bubbling away (aluminum + copper = not good). On the new one, I use some Davis goo that's supposed to keep the growth from adhering. It has no biocide but apparently just makes it hard for stuff to fasten on. Results are less than spectacular but the outboard isn't dissolving. Things would probably be worse in salt water. Chris Campbell

On 4/23/2011 6:57 PM, mike farrell wrote: > I have seen Cal 20 keels with severe soft spots that seemed to > be filled with decomposed iron the consistency of plumbers putty that > was the gray black color of graphite and could be gouged out with a > wood chisel. I used a 1/2" drill to get to clean metal and then > filled the holes with splash zone 2 part epoxy. Some of the holes in > the keel bulb were nearly an inch deep and there were 10 or more to be > cleaned and filled. I looked at your photos and my guess is that the cruddy spots are the result of long-term corrosion. Salt water and maybe the dissimilar metals thing with antifouling paint and 9 years' neglect all add up. My other boat also has an iron keel (and a steel centerboard) and when I do periodic maintenance, it is with a hammer and cold chisel to chip off the rust. None of it is quite as bad as in your photos, but my boat is in fresh water, it has primer under the antifouling, it's hauled out for half of each year, and I try to work on it with some regularity. We here in Michigan are well acquainted with rust and corrosion and salt because road salt eats up our cars eventually. It's not pretty. Chris Campbell