New Battery Time

The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap them out. I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - - sizing? - make? At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's - any reasons not to ? Thanks in advance, Grae 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ

Grae, Check your charging system for acceptable charge rate for the AGM or Gel. Some older chargers will not produce the proper voltage/amp rate required for the new style batteries. IMHO, if you have room for two wet cell batteries (group 27 or 24) you will be better off not spending the additional cost for the AGM. I know several people have relocated or added a battery for engine starting only, keeping the 2 battery bank for the house batteries. Using a AGM or Gel, they were able to put in into a smaller area, even mounting on its side to conserve space. This change may require considerable rewiring to maintain charging from the alternator as well as the 110v battery charger. Also check your charging system for compliance with two separate circuits. Two batteries charging from the same charger circuit can be problematic. The weaker battery will call for more charging power, possibly overcharging the other lesser used battery. I hope this helps, and doesn't confuse. John From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Grae Morrison Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 5:11 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap them out. I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - - sizing? - make? At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's - any reasons not to ? Thanks in advance, Grae 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ

Costco. On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> wrote: > ** > > > The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top > up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap > them out. > > I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have > any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: > > - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit > for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. > - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - > - sizing? > - make? > > At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's > - any reasons not to ? > > Thanks in advance, > Grae > 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny > Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ > > >

Trojan T105 or Exide GC2 golf cart batteries will outlast anything. The Trojans are supposedly available at Sam's Club in the States under a different name, I'm not from their so cant verify it. There are alternatives of course. see post number 6 http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/69943-deka-trojan-golf-cart-batteries-opinons.html Stick on a set of hydro caps (see google) and you have a pretty solid long term cruising solution. Racing? No clue? Best regards /ch On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Costco. > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top >> up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap >> them out. >> >> I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have >> any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: >> >> - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit >> for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. >> - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - >> - sizing? >> - make? >> >> At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's >> - any reasons not to ? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Grae >> 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny >> Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ >> >> > > > -- /ch

Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. My take on the subject. If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage applied. A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already loaded programs: http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high current loads, like windlasses. AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they had solar power and were running the engine they were probably cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely charging the batteries like many cruisers do. They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither will be accepting that much current. Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. John From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap them out. I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - - sizing? - make? At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's - any reasons not to ? Thanks in advance, Grae 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ

I received my latest issue of Cruising World yesterday. It had an interesting article on choosing batteries. Definitely worth reading. Terry On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Courter wrote: > > Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. > > My take on the subject. > > If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage applied. > > A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. > > Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already loaded programs: > http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf > > Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high current loads, like windlasses. > > AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. > AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they had solar power and were running the engine they were probably cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely charging the batteries like many cruisers do. > > They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither will be accepting that much current. > > Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. > > One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. > > John > > > From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> > To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time > > > The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top > up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap > them out. > > I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have > any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: > > - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit > for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. > - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - > - sizing? > - make? > > At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's > - any reasons not to ? > > Thanks in advance, > Grae > 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny > Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ > > > > >

Thanks all for the info, some very good points - I'm think a good look at the charging/regulator circuit before I do anything is in order as that could be a concern for the newer batteries, the engine is 25 or so years old after all! But from what I can glean from the posts and searching around two like sized AGM seem the best way to go - after I check the alternator.... again thanks all. G On 01/19/2012 02:48 PM, Terry Spencer wrote: > > I received my latest issue of Cruising World yesterday. It had an > interesting article on choosing batteries. Definitely worth reading. > > Terry > > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Courter wrote: > >> >> Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com <http://www.cruisersforum.com/> >> for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. >> My take on the subject. >> If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, >> everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized >> batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries >> separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to >> charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally >> regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different >> sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set >> voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge >> acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage >> applied. >> A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are >> in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very >> little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night >> is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge >> with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged >> battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks >> at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the >> regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has >> a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting >> less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. >> At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower >> voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a >> discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the >> regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will >> not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more >> outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo >> charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. >> Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already >> loaded programs: >> http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf >> Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. >> Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded >> or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high >> current loads, like windlasses. >> AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that >> direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. >> AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than >> flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular >> basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most >> of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a >> long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most >> cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last >> long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here >> that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded >> batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went >> back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the >> flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the >> flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they >> had solar power and were running the engine they were probably >> cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely >> charging the batteries like many cruisers do. >> They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging >> capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they >> can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp >> alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have >> the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any >> faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to >> AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to >> charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not >> deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither >> will be accepting that much current. >> Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to >> puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in >> between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on >> clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. >> The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had >> before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. >> One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the >> marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says >> that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate >> batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they >> supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger >> watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded >> battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass >> you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running >> cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. >> John >> >> *From:* Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net <mailto:gr… [at] gtmorrison.net>> >> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" >> <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time >> >> The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top >> up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap >> them out. >> >> I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have >> any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: >> >> - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit >> for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. >> - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - >> - sizing? >> - make? >> >> At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's >> - any reasons not to ? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Grae >> 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny >> Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ >> >> >> >> > >

I've been using permanently installed battery zapper/de-sulfonator on mine, since it was new, and so far, so good (do you want a model #?) and she's been working like new for about three years now. I even killed it last summer by neglecting it, and letting the fluid go dry, and it regained full charge as soon as I filled it with distilled water and charged it. Right now I'm abusing the poor thing for the last few weeks with no charger on it, and the zapper going which works off the battery juice, since I broke a battery charger lead where it connects to the fuse holder. Pray for me, and pray to Neptune, that I get around to fixing it before the Battery god punishes me by making my battery call it quits. I bought my battery from Kragan, which is now called O'Reilly, for a pretty good price. BTW I've been thinking of going to a motorcycle battery stashed in the keel to save weight. Good idea, or just plain dumb? Nowadays with LED type nav lights, maybe I don't need to lug around such a big battery. Mine's a #24, like you find in the average car, set in the port side of the bow next to were the defunct water tank is located, held in by wraps of 1/8" polyester line. No room for a battery box there. If you're looking for a good AGM battery, Kragen/O'Reilly has them as well, (Optima, or something like that, coil wound plates) but woo-hoo are they expensive! Strangely, the motorcycle batteries they sell are square style AGMs and they don't cost that much. Anyways, with that battery zapper going, I'm expecting the battery to last for at least 12 years. Am I nuts? I shouldn't ask!! Jerry, Shpritz, yea venerable Cal 24 Mark Uno. From: Grae morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time Thanks all for the info, some very good points - I'm think a good look at the charging/regulator circuit before I do anything is in order as that could be a concern for the newer batteries, the engine is 25 or so years old after all! But from what I can glean from the posts and searching around two like sized AGM seem the best way to go - after I check the alternator.... again thanks all. G On 01/19/2012 02:48 PM, Terry Spencer wrote: > > >I received my latest issue of Cruising World yesterday. It had an interesting article on choosing batteries. Definitely worth reading. > > >Terry > > > >On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Courter wrote: > > >> >> >>Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. >> >>My take on the subject. >> >>If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage applied. >> >> A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. >> >>Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already loaded programs: >>http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf >> >>Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high current loads, like windlasses. >> >>AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. >>AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they had solar power and were running the engine they were probably cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely charging the batteries like many cruisers do. >> >> They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither will be accepting that much current. >> >>Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. >> >>One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. >> >>John >> >> >> >>From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> >>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM >>Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time >> >> >> >>The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top >>up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap >>them out. >> >>I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have >>any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: >> >>- AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit >>for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. >>- is it better to have two batteries the same or different - >>- sizing? >>- make? >> >>At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's >>- any reasons not to ? >> >>Thanks in advance, >>Grae >>1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny >>Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ >> >> >> >> >> >> >

I didn't see the article, maybe I missed it, what was the title? I went to B&N thinking I'd buy a copy if the article was interesting, but didn't see an article. John From: Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time I received my latest issue of Cruising World yesterday. It had an interesting article on choosing batteries. Definitely worth reading. Terry On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Courter wrote: > > >Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. > >My take on the subject. > >If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage applied. > > A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. > >Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already loaded programs: >http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf > >Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high current loads, like windlasses. > >AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. >AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they had solar power and were running the engine they were probably cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely charging the batteries like many cruisers do. > > They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither will be accepting that much current. > >Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. > >One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. > >John > > > >From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM >Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time > > > >The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top >up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap >them out. > >I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have >any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: > >- AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit >for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. >- is it better to have two batteries the same or different - >- sizing? >- make? > >At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's >- any reasons not to ? > >Thanks in advance, >Grae >1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny >Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ > > > > > >

February 2012 issue, P. 62 "Replacing Batteries? Do Your Homework First" On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:25 PM, John Courter wrote: > > I didn't see the article, maybe I missed it, what was the title? I went to B&N thinking I'd buy a copy if the article was interesting, but didn't see an article. > > John > > From: Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:48 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time > > > > I received my latest issue of Cruising World yesterday. It had an interesting article on choosing batteries. Definitely worth reading. > > Terry > > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Courter wrote: > >> >> >> Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. >> >> My take on the subject. >> >> If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage applied. >> >> A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. >> >> Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already loaded programs: >> http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf >> >> Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high current loads, like windlasses. >> >> AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. >> AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they had solar power and were running the engine they were probably cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely charging the batteries like many cruisers do. >> >> They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither will be accepting that much current. >> >> Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. >> >> One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. >> >> John >> >> >> From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> >> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM >> Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time >> >> >> The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top >> up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap >> them out. >> >> I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have >> any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: >> >> - AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit >> for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. >> - is it better to have two batteries the same or different - >> - sizing? >> - make? >> >> At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's >> - any reasons not to ? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Grae >> 1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny >> Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ >> >> >> >> > > > > >

January issue is still in the store. John From: Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time February 2012 issue, P. 62 "Replacing Batteries? Do Your Homework First" On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:25 PM, John Courter wrote: > > >I didn't see the article, maybe I missed it, what was the title? I went to B&N thinking I'd buy a copy if the article was interesting, but didn't see an article. > > >John > > > > >________________________________ > From: Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:48 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time > > > > > >I received my latest issue of Cruising World yesterday. It had an interesting article on choosing batteries. Definitely worth reading. > > >Terry > > > >On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Courter wrote: > > >> >> >>Do a search on www.cruisersforum.com for batteries and you'll get several days worth of reading on the topic. >> >>My take on the subject. >> >>If all the batteries are in one bank then as the other poster said, everything as identical as you can get, but slightly different sized batteries won't kill each other. If you have your 2 batteries separate as a house and a starting battery and only combine them to charge, then they can be different. If you have an internally regulated alternator, you won't overcharge one battery if different sized or different chemistry. The regulator will come up to a set voltage and hold the batteries there. The battery has a charge acceptance rate determined by its state of charge and the voltage applied. >> >> A 3 stage charger could overcharge one of the batteries if they are in separate banks then combined to charge. A start battery uses very little capacity to start the engine. A house battery used all night is relatively discharged. The Balmar regulator does a bulk charge with a high voltage setpoint, not a problem with a discharged battery. When it reaches that voltage, after a time delay, it looks at the duty cycle to the field windings. If you've programmed the regulator correctly, field on most of the time means the battery has a ways to go, field turning off more, means battery is accepting less current to maintain that voltage setpoint and is more charged. At a certain %age field duty cycle the regulater goes into a lower voltage acceptance mode. The point of all this is a discharged house battery will accept a lot of current, keeping the regulator in the bulk phase. The start battery, already charged will not be accepting much current, but the higher voltage will cause more outgassing than is desirable and heat up the battery. An Echo or Duo charge would be a better choice here to charge the start battery. >> >>Balmar ARS-5 manual, see bottom of page 12 for table of already loaded programs: >>http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2010-ars-5-manual-web.pdf >> >>Gels are unpopular with boaters because of the long charge time. Gels handle deep discharges(like 80% discharges) better than flooded or AGMs, more cycles before they die. Gels aren't good for high current loads, like windlasses. >> >>AGMS have a lot of good points, but I'm probably not going in that direction yet, I'm staying with flooded for now because of the cost. >>AGMS cost at least double but commonly don't last longer than flooded. It appears AGMS need to be completely charged on a regular basis or they die an early death. If you plug in to shore power most of the time with a good 3 stage charger, apparently they will last a long time, supposedly the 7-8 years seen on the advertising. Most cruisers don't have that capability and the batteries don't last long. I know one couple that started in New York and came back here that part way through their trip upgraded to AGMS, old flooded batteries were many years old. The AGMs lasted a year and they went back to flooded. They were cruising another 3-4 years with the flooded. They then moved off so don't know how much longer the flooded could have lasted under those conditions. Even though they had solar power and were running the engine they were probably cycling their batteries between 90% to 50% and hardly ever completely charging the batteries like many cruisers do. >> >> They can be charged faster, do you have the capability? Charging capability for flooded is usually given as 0.25*C, some AGMs say they can do 1*C. If you have 200 Amp-hrs of batteries, that's a 50 amp alternator for flooded and 200 amp alternator for AGMS. If you have the 50 amp alternator you're hardly going to charge the AGM any faster than flooded. I believe there is another little advantage to AGMs, as I believe more of the current going into the battery goes to charging it, versus heat and disassociating water. If you're not deeply discharging the batteries the above doesn't matter as neither will be accepting that much current. >> >>Make sure you look at the amp-hour ratings. The club I belong to puts the batteries for the club boats in the sail locker to charge in between uses. Carrying back and forth, tipping, dropping, acid on clothes, inconsistant checks on water level caused them to go AGM. The Optima Spiral that is the same size as the Group 24s they had before are 55 amp-hrs, versus 80 amp-hrs on the flooded Group 24. >> >>One guy I corresponded with on Cruisers Forum that worked in the marine industry, designing charging, monitoring electronics, says that watt-hours is a better value to use than amp-hours to rate batteries. Since the AGMs have a lower internal resistance, they supply a higher voltage under load. So an AGM would have a bigger watt-hour rating even if it had the same amp-hour rating as a flooded battery. This means on a power hungry boat or things like a windlass you would see better performance. If all you're doing is running cabin lights it pretty much means nothing. >> >>John >> >> >> >>From: Grae Morrison <gr… [at] gtmorrison.net> >>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:10 PM >>Subject: [Cal_Boats] New Battery Time >> >> >> >>The batteries on my 29 are getting on a bit and the monthly winter top >>up/check is not taking too well so I'm thinking it may be time to swap >>them out. >> >>I currently have group 24 and group 27 wet batteries, does anyone have >>any experience and/or suggestions on the following points: >> >>- AGM or gel - I'm aware of the restrictions in the charging circuit >>for gel type batteries, so not sure what is to gained by going gel. >>- is it better to have two batteries the same or different - >>- sizing? >>- make? >> >>At the moment, I'm thinking of going with two 27 or two 34M Optima AGM's >>- any reasons not to ? >> >>Thanks in advance, >>Grae >>1972 Cal 29 #435 - Destiny >>Navesink river, Red Bank, NJ >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >